This island is easily big enough for two cultures

by TheIdiotsAreTakingOver Thu Jul 31, 2003 22:54

>>>>>Nationalism is a failure: it has not the capacity or morality to embrace a people that sings from a different song sheet... While nationalists continue with their hostility to cultural equality and mutual esteem, then a peaceful future for this island is very bleak.>>>>

You do realise, of course, that 'Loyalism' and 'Unionism' are manifestations of British Nationalism, and a pretty thick-headed version of nationalism at that.

If you're truly interested in achieving "cultural equality and mutual esteem", it might be an idea to understand your opposition, and the reasons why they find twelfth celebrations so offensive.

A couple of years back, I decided to attend my local bonfire night for the first time in about twelve years to witness this 'festival' of what I'm told is my culture.

On top of the bonfire they had an election poster of a Sinn Fein councillor, and someone shouted "Is that fenian bitch burning yet?".

Cultural equality and mutual esteem. Lets think about that a little more, hmmmm.....

*****

My point is Billy, while the propaganda and agitation of irish republicans might get on your tits, your range of critical thought shouldn't end there. Only then will you start to get to that peaceful future you're so keen on.

by pat c Fri Aug 01, 2003 11:33

I am sure you will agree that Sinn Fein have thr right to march down the Shankill Road, play A Nation Once Again, and to hold up 9 fingers as the go past the site of Frizzels.

by Andrew Fri Aug 01, 2003 11:41

Isn't a big part of the problem Billy that the 12th is a sectarian festival designed to show the supremacy of one 'community' (aka cross class alliance) over another? Even the date is a give away, the OO arose at a time when most Protestants in Belfast celebrated Bastille day (July 14th). July 12th, when King Billy won a battle with the Popes blessing was designed to be a counter attraction and later a loyality test.

The first Orange Order parades of 1796 saw one fatality, but in 1797 14 were killed during violence at an Orange parade in Stewartstown. In 1813 an Orange parade through one of the first areas of Belfast identified as 'Catholic' saw four more deaths.

In 1835 Armagh Magistrate, William Hancock, (a Protestant), said: "For some time past the peaceable inhabitants of the parish of Drumcree have been insulted and outraged by large bodies of Orangemen parading the highways, playing party tunes, firing shots, and using the most opprobrious epithets they could invent ... a body of Orangemen marched through the town and proceeded to Drumcree church, passing by the Catholic chapel though it was a considerable distance out of their way." This was just after the Drumcree parade had claimed its first victim, Hugh Donnelly, a local Catholic.

by Janus Fri Aug 01, 2003 12:31

You might not have a degree in Quantum Physics but you clearly don't know much about politics and history either.

Nationalists and Republicans have repeatedly condemned attacks on Orange Halls. As a republican, I have no problem with an Orange march so long as you have the permission of local residents of whatever creed or none. There are over 3,000 Orange marches a year. Less than 50 are controversial and that number has been decreasing because the Order is slowing coming round to the realisation that if they are polite, ask permission, put away the more sectarian of their banners and songs while passing Nationalists, no-one really objects to their march.

by Croppy guy Fri Aug 01, 2003 16:29

You are not the first Orangeman to try and obscure the supremacism of Unionism and try to redefine yourselves as victims. It is truly pathetic but also an insult to the generations who have had to and have to, live under bitter little men like you for the last 80 years.

Your so called culture is no more than a celebration of the position of top dog occupied by unionists, in effect protestants, since partition and your pathetic revisionism is no more than nasty nostalgia for your golden age of absolute sectarian power.

As catholic/nationalist areas of Belfast and the North east are under constant attack and intimidation from wannabee ethnic cleansers, you seek to portray the victims as victimisers and vice versa. Holy Cross, Harryville, Short Strand have all been porttrayed in true Orwellian style as examples of republican terror. You may delude yourselves into believing your own lies, but there is a world outside Ireland and see how much sympathy your so called identity has there.

As for your sign-off crumb of comfort for yourself, unionists have been threatening civil war for the last hundred years. Putting the fact aside that we had one for the last thirty years, reunification of this island will be beneficial to all and once London stops propping unionism up, partition (physical and mental) will rapidly collapse under the weight of it's own absurdity.

by weblog iosaf Fri Aug 01, 2003 16:37

lovely allusion to Q. Ph there.
this comment really only gives me a chance to offer readers the cypher Q. Ph after yesterdays Q.D-sh "we have sung the Qe Desh enough".
Now I suppose Quantum is thus "off the table" when pondering the micro-world of ulster and it's at times difficult to navigate summer frolicking marches. But hey that's life, and as we know the kettle is as black as the pot, due to long exposure to the flame and not any peculiar behaviour observed or not of a photon.
So billy fine lad that you are, explain why we blinkered nationalists ought pay any more attention than we do to you blinkered loyalists.

Oh, and try avoid the solipisms.

by Ali la Pointe Fri Aug 01, 2003 21:15

by Andrew, Pat C and company above. Just one detail, has the GAA ever had an anti-Protestant policy?
And yes I would hope that we had room on this island for several cultures, not just two.

by JMcK Sun Aug 03, 2003 10:40

So apart from the great Irish cultures(?) you seem to recognise , do you think there might be room for any more .

Do Africans , Asians or people from the Far East whom I would guess outnumber the number of bigots in the DUP, not deserve a place for their culture?

Or will we demand of them, to better protect our marvellous "cultures" that they drop their culture when entering the Vaterland? But which culture will we make them choose?

I can't imagine Chinese or Africans at Drumcree throwing bricks at Policemen.

by Michael Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:28 sizzlegodlessgod at aol dot com

So, I have a bumper sticker, which I got from Irish Northern Aid. It says "England get out of Ireland." Would you call this a nationalist or republican slogan? Possibly neither. I'm just an Irish American who supports a movement to "unify" the country. I don't support Catholicism or Protestantism. But it seems to be a no brainer that, no matter what loyalty the unionists have, that little island is ENTIRELY Ireland, and always will be. Well, maybe not always. But you get my point, I hope.

Truly interested in some feedback.

In LA.

by pat c Sun Aug 03, 2003 19:18

Iwould callit a Republican Slogan. You willalso find stickers with:England Get Out Of Scoyland & England Get Out Of Wales. This is a touchy subject with some "Trots".

by Michael Mon Aug 04, 2003 04:35

Do you mean Trotskyists? I don't think the slogan is too "racial". I'm not against Protestants or British people, but I do want to support a "unified" Ireland. I also want to support genuine socialism. So I'd like to know if anyone thinks my bumper sticker is out of line.

by me - personal capacity Wed Aug 06, 2003 17:14

You wouldnt drive around here with that sticker on your car for long.
Obviously an American.
It's different when it's close to home.
It's not that simple. How does England 'get out' of Ireland?

by Michael Thu Aug 07, 2003 08:49

I know it's not simple. Bumper stickers are just invitations to debate. They're meant to be broad. But as for being an American (or just being 6000 miles away, which is really the point) why should I not support the Republican movement where I can safely do it? Keep in mind, I'd never have a sticker that read "IRA, keep on fighting" or something like that. I think that kind of thing would indeed be arrogant and insensitive.

I think England "getting out" is not about Protestants or Loyalists getting out, obviously. It's about allowing the entire island to be under Irish control, with equal rights for everyone. When the British Empire is weakened, so is the American Empire.

by Canteen Kevin Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:21

Fair play to you Michael for your bumper sticker I don't know where "me" is referring to when he says you'd have a problem with the sticker. Nowhere in the republic, except from the Gardai. I have seen plenty of 26+6=1 stickers in Dublin. I reckon "London out of Ireland" avoids any "racist" issues and gets the message about of parasitical imperialism in Ireland.