CHE GUEVARA

by Lone Gunman Sat Oct 04, 2003 19:57

Is wrong then.As it stated that they launched from Florida!Either way Mexico or Florida ,it was CIA sponsored.Why or what the plan was it obvisouly was another Langley fuckup.They really are good at those there.
JFK
Well, I personally reckon Elvis did it!
There is so much truth and lies and "smoke&mirrors"[to borrow a line from JFK]about who might have done the deed.You now have to go through decide what is truth or fiction,which is difficult and almost impossible to discern now all these years later.Motive,method ,means. All of the above groups fit into the guilty category.
One thing is for sure Oswold could not have been the only shooter.He was the worst shot in his Marine company,and the BEST trained snipers in the world are US marines.Their best,could NOT replicate the shots with the rifle,which was a cruddy piece of junk in the time sequence, or the hits.

by (A) Sat Oct 04, 2003 18:27

Che was a tosser too, just like Lenin.
Come on, get yourselves better heroes!

by Killian Sat Oct 04, 2003 15:50

Badman, satire is a powerful and effective tool. You piece was very funny and a good comment. I don't think we need to look any further than the SP and SWP and their attitude to the north to see how accurate your comment is.

by Badman Sat Oct 04, 2003 14:21

It was the script of a historical drama after all, grant me my artistic licence!

I take the point about Kennedy, I s'pose I should have said 'senator kennedy'.

Also, the J16M did launch frequent attacks on military outposts and arms dumps. In the course of these attacks troops were often killed. Of course the massacring of the army was not the intention, but some eggs were broken!

The whole point of the satire above was to point out that the SWP are doing the same as the capitalists who put Che on t-shirts. They are happy to use his image to sell papers and recruit people, but they would run a million miles from his ideas, especially from putting them into action.

by bern the bird Sat Oct 04, 2003 00:36

Cuba was indeed the Americans playground of sin, safe away protected by a murderous regime...
Look deeper into into the JFK assassination/bay of pigs connections... volumes have been written on it... and the Bush family name is not too scant...
Did you know....? George Senior, as CIA operative (and future director) and acting for Bush family oil interests in the Gulf, co-ordinated much of the invasion! Indeed, the two (repainted US naval) troop filled ships sent down to topple Fidel were named, haha! this is true... the Houston and the Barbara! Ego took control there... his home city and his wife... y'know...

by historical inaccuracy - historians advocating historical accuracy (HaHa) Fri Oct 03, 2003 23:00

i had previously given gunman a *little* more credit. Surely he cannot be mixing up the bay of pigs hilarity with the epic struggle of the Revolution. Agree with the aims or not, no-one can deny the dedication and sacrifice of the J16M.

Ah well.

On a not entirely unrelated topic, what are peoples' thoughts on the JFK conspiracy? One of the most interesting theories I have heard (I'm not saying I believe it but its food for thought) is that it was a mob hit.

How does this relate to Cuba?

Well, after the 'dirty reds' took power, of course they kicked out all the gangsters, ended prostitution and the like. Cuba, under Batista, was a playground for the mafia. Once the J16M seized power their fun and games stopped.

Joe Kennedy (JFKs da) relied heavily (if certain historical sources are to believed) on mafia 'influence' in getting Jack elected. Of course, the mob wanted their favors. So after the Bay of Pigs, and the missile 'crisis' JFK gave up on Cuba. This, coupled with a crackdown on the mob, spearheaded by Jacks brother Bobby as AG, led to a mob hit on JFK.

Interesting. But highly unbelievable. But then who would have thought that a monkey could be elected president of America?

by bb Fri Oct 03, 2003 22:40

they sailed from mexico, you fucking nitwit

by Lone gunman Fri Oct 03, 2003 22:05

be today without the evil USA allowing them to jump off from Florida,arming and financing them?

by Lone gunman Fri Oct 03, 2003 22:05

be today without the evil USA allowing them to jump off from Florida,arming and financing them?

by historical innaccuracy - historians against the war/bin-tax/imperialism/capitalism/globalisation/ (aka the SWP) Fri Oct 03, 2003 19:10

"like that nice liberal president Kennedy."

- The Cuban Revolution seized power in January 1959. Kennedy was not elected until 1960.

Oh and...

"If we happen to come upon any detatchments of Batista's imperialist lackey troops, on no account should we fire upon them. They are workers in uniform and we will adopt a 'meet and greet' strategy."

- If I remember correctly, the J16M often actually let captured troops free after confiscating their weapons.

At the time of the revolution, the CP and various Trotskist parties in Cuba were opposed to the actions of the J16M. It is also doubtful that at the beginning of the revolution Castro was a in fact 'communist'. Without doubt Raul and Che were, but the historical battle rages on the Castro issue.

Personally, I would love to see a swimmer meeting on the Black Panters or Malcolm X. Anyone have any idea what theri positions on these were? I mean I could trawl the substantial archives of Socialist Review, but I'm not in the mood to torture myself. A brief synopsis would be nice.

by Degenerate Fri Oct 03, 2003 18:51

It reads like a script.
It has to have Whigfield playing Che!

Premiers 'Saturday night'.

by Badman Fri Oct 03, 2003 18:46

Ammended from a previous thread to include some of the SWP's recent hilarious material:

Remember Che's words to his guerrilla army in the sierra maestre:

"Now lads, I realise we're fighting the right wing government, stooges for global imperialism. But whatever you do, keep it in mind that any property destruction or indeed any type of action at all would be premature and would only serve to alienate the working class from our party. Therefore we are not actually going to fight the state, we're instead going to march around the mountains, stopping every few days for a round of speeches and paper selling. We might even get a few big name politicians on the podium, like that nice liberal president Kennedy. That'll really put the willies up the imperialists.

If we happen to come upon any detatchments of Batista's imperialist lackey troops, on no account should we fire upon them. They are workers in uniform and we will adopt a 'meet and greet' strategy. We will demand, through megaphones, that the soldiers put pressure on their generals to take industrial action in support of our struggle.

If we play our cards right and the comrades sell their quota of papers and keep the chanting up, the government will crumble before the growing anger of the working class, as seen in the recent wave of anger that is sweeping the world. We are on the verge of a breakthrough comrades, commandante Fidel has a good chance of taking a council seat in Havana in next years local elections. So we can't allow the adventurists to provoke us and force us to do anything that the right wing press could use against us. In fact all of those people who criticise us for our inaction are agents of the great imperialist dog - terrified of our manly communism. So, comrades, form up, get the placards up the front, let's really let them have it this time. Chant after me as I lead you up this mountain and down the other side: "una solucion, revolucion..."

by fed Fri Oct 03, 2003 17:43

a mass murderer

by lone gunman Fri Oct 03, 2003 12:50

Here on Indymedia.Everyone carps on about mine when they cant come up with a viable arguement.Sign of a looser in an arguement when you have to nitpick the petty stuff.

by Anti-blah Fri Oct 03, 2003 04:44

So whoppee, Willie has a spelling or two wrong. So fucking what? Perhaps he didn't go to finishing school like your good self.

by me Thu Oct 02, 2003 18:06

For revolutionaries you should Know how to spell it -REVOLUTION.

by berniebird Thu Oct 02, 2003 17:48

odd how the image has changed the history, the popular memory... the poster adorns the wall of every other university dorm room on the planet, flags, etc, ... but ask any Habanero who symbolizes the revolution for them and they say Camilo Cienfuegos- the first rebel leader to enter Havana, days ahead of Che and Fidel, the man in the funny daisy hat with the long beard and blinding smile... To most Cubans, Guevara was the outsider, the austere... he played his role as minister of finance, then set out again to do what he was best at... being a revolutionary. This is why his image is so popular, why he is so admired, because he had the strength not to sit on his ass the rest of his life signing banknotes and laying rebel-chicks in the constant party that was Cuba for the two years directly after the revolution... in a way he was the first figure of globalized resistance... he took the good fight against imperialism to Libya, he fought alongside Patrice Lumbumba in the Congo, and had he more support he would have stopped the CIA backed Sese Seko butcher-lunatic from consolidating an oppresive Zaire (this war is still being fought, people). He was a traveller soul, he biked all over the South American continent, he worked with activists from Rosario to Mexico DF to New York, and he was hunted and betrayed in the rugged jungles of Bolivia where he met his final crucifiction... The life of the man and the subsequent history of Cuba are two very different things, and this must be remembered next time you look at a Che flag...

by Venceremos Thu Oct 02, 2003 15:57

The SWP have always (well, right back to 70s anyway) had an analysis of Cuba as state capitalist, not in any way socialist. However, they do defend it from attacks by american imperialists - a distinction that some find difficult to understand. For evidence, google articles by Mike Gonalez of SWP on Cuba in Socialist Review or International Socialism Journal

by kokomero Thu Oct 02, 2003 15:27

The art of Jim Fitzpatrick has never been
less than controversial. His earliest work,
the legendary Che Geuvara poster of 1968
published just before his death in Bolivia,
became the iconic image of the anti-Vietnam
war protests worldwide and today is the
symbol of F.A.R.C. in Columbia and the
Zapitistas of Mexico in their fight for
freedom and autonomy.

"It's an odd world." says the artist, "The Che
Guevara poster became a worldwide phenomena
and caused outrage everywhere it appeared.
Because the various posters of Che I
produced were based on a photograph by a then
unknown Cuban photographer plus the fact that
I had met him (see Biography section ), idolised him and of course wanted to make
sure he was never forgotten I made all the
Guevara images copyright free. That's how it
spread everywhere so quickly.

The reaction was extraordinary. The original poster art and an oil painting I intended using as a print went on tour after being exhibited in the Lisson Gallery in London and guess what ? -they both 'disappeared' in Eastern Europe where an individualistic idealist like Che was anathema to their corrupt regimes. Reaction in the west was about the same: my distributor in Spain was actually arrested by Franco's secret police !

But Ireland was the weirdest:
Every shop that stocked the poster was threatened or harassed: in the very fashionable Brown Thomas of Grafton Street, which sold cards and posters in those faraway days, a well-turned out lady bought the entire stock, tore them all to pieces in front of the astonished staff and walked out ! I remember the late Ms O'Flaherty and Ms King of Parsons Bookshop on Baggot Street bridge, who were great supporters of my art -as they were of every artist and writer in Dublin - getting really upset at the hostility directed towards the poster, which hung proudly in their front window. Despite threats to break their windows they refused to take it down and I was so proud every time I passed that little shop run by two most educated, kind and charming Dubliners who devoted their lives to the artists and writers of this city. "

by - Thu Oct 02, 2003 15:08

It is now a little over 3 years, since seven anonymous activists attempting to represent communities as nationaly diverse as California, Italy, Sweden, Germany, Ireland, England and those social political traditions of autonomy, anarchism, ecological activism, gender politics placed the picture of Che Guevara on the Cenotaph of London above the inscription "Glorious Dead".

That small remembrance service was the first time that the war memorial of the British Imperial system was subverted in the name of victims.

Cuba is presently an authoritarian centralised state, dissident journalists, activists including grass root community activists and university students find themselves victims of oppression, and face heavy prison sentances.

It is thus little surprise that many who treasure the liberty of the individual, freedom of speech and freedom of association, find themselves increasingly calling for reform of the Cuban political system.

Are the SWM included?

Che is meaningless as an icon without follow through, where is the Cuban Revolution now?
and where is it going? To avoid talking about that is to avoid talking about where the SWM would bring their fresh new recruits.

by SG Thu Oct 02, 2003 14:49

Splitters!!