More jailings likely

by james Tue Nov 04, 2003 18:09

yet another swp trade union front eh? don'tthey ever get tired of the lies?

by toomuchtaxpaid! Tue Nov 04, 2003 14:33

Andrew,

I see your comment about how many people on protests are actually contributing towards the state !!!
I myself have paid my taxes since 1977 and still paying I am not self employed so what I have to do is work extra early hours so I can take time out to do my bit for this campaign, I know a lot of the other people are doing similar and others are on shift so therefore they also pay taxes.
Even if people have a waiver now that does not mean when it is privatised they are still going to get that waiver !!!

by Trade Unionist - Grassroots Trade Union Alliance (In embryonic stage at the moment) Tue Nov 04, 2003 14:25 Same as above Same as Email

....But rather what we as ordinary workers can do? In the ideal world the Dublin Council of Trade Unions and the various other Trades' Councils around the country and the Unions themselves individually would already have brought this country to a standstill at least intially with an all-out 24-hour work stoppage or general strike or call it what you like to prove to this government that we are serious. However unfortunately at least in Ireland we don't live in a perfect world. That's why a group of Shop Stewards, some senior, Branch Secretaries, Regional Organisers and ordinary rank and file workers have come together to form the Grassroots Trade Union Alliance (GTUA). As stated above we're only in the embryonic stage at present, so we have no Website, Phones or Email just yet. Plus we are sending this on an offical Trade Union computer and our Union has not as of yet backed the Anti bin tax protests. We will be issuing a Press Release shortly as a seperate article outlining our plan of action. So watch this space.

by Pat Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:36

Andrew should be happy to hear that six more people have been sent to jail for engaging in civil disobedience.

They have been sent down for three weeks and received fines of €1500 each.

The stakes have been raised. What say ICTU, DCTU and the capitalist Labour Party now.

by andrew smith Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:30 smithandrew7 at hotmail dot com

too much tax paid by whom?

I travel to work everyday I sometimes see protests outside the depots by people against the bin tax.

How many of these people actually contribute to the state and how many actually are being paid welfare and are now spending their paid time protesting against a bin tax that many of them have wavers against.

The Herald had a frount page article about a member of the Socialist PArty who was up in court but had a waver.

For gods sack protest but have a bit opf coop on as well.

And no I m not part of the capitalist establishments plot to screw the working class.

by Monkey Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:07

Try and use some punctuation. A comma or a full stop might have helped give a little clarity to your response. The pro-government dingbat made a reasonable and articulate - if ultimately misinformed - point. A rare enough thing on these pages.

by Voter+Taxpayer+Democrar Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:03

Thanks for the response.

I nver said that it was beyond criticism. I just said that one should be careful what exactly you are criticising. Bin Tax? Privatisation? Government? Fianna Fail? The trouble is, sometimes it's difficult to tell what exactly is being protested.

A couple of questions;

* "Legislative perogative"? please explain.

* "Those who control the domocratic institutions"? Who are these people? How is this control exersized?

* "mandate derived from a voting sample that never exceeds 70% of the population registered as being in the Irish state one day every four years"
Eh? What do you suggest as an alternative?

by non voter and disenfracnchised to boot Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:50

total utter crap, if the Democratic System is beyond criticism and also the apparata that are used under legislative prerogative assigned by those who control the democratic institutions by virtue of mandate derived from a voting sample that never exceeds 70% of the population registered as being in the Irish state one day every four years "expressed without true universal suffrage in the modern European state held sense", then your Democracy isn't worth shite.

We criticise Democracy.
that is what we do.
And Democracy is all the better for it.
In fact you might hope that some day we will have Democracy thanks to our criticism.

by Voter+TaxPayer+Democrat Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:44

Before I start, I should say that I fully support the right of the protestors on this issue to make their voices heard as they have been doing with some success. As we all know (but some forget) the right to protest is as key a part of the democratic process as the right to vote....

Anyway....

There have been comments in this thread (and others) about the government and the legal system.

E.g. "They are capitalist courts, Fianna Fail fines, PD injunctions, Fine Gael judges, Labour prison sentences, Green Party cops."

Just be aware that the people of Ireland democratically elected these people to best represent their interests in government. If you refuse to recognise the legitimacy of these bodies you are acting undemocratically and some may view your actions as not taking your social responsibility seriously.

We have chosen a democracy (earned the hard way) and all the flaws that go with it. We pick our representatives and suffer the consequences accordingly. When those representatives make an unpopular decision, we can protest, we can civilly disobey and make our voices heard and perhaps garner sufficuent public support to change things.

Criticise the decision. Criticise the person who makes the decision. By all means criticise the voters to ellected the bollox who made the decision. But be careful; once you start to criticise the PROCESS by which these people were elected you are on dangerous ground.

Dont forget; I, the Irish voter, made my voice heard at the last election. If you don't like it.... you know what to do....

by toomuchtaxpaid! Tue Nov 04, 2003 08:23

All South County Meeting this Tuesday 4th @ 9.00pm in the Kilnamanagh Community Centre,
( Opposite The Cuckoo’s Nest Tallaght )

by Put Him In to Get Him Out Mon Nov 03, 2003 22:08

Is it true that one of those up before Judge Finnegan will be contesting elections in UCD in a couple of weeks? Could we see a Bobby Sands style victory in the UCD Academic Council elections?

by Chief Bureacrat - Dublin Council of Trades Unions Mon Nov 03, 2003 22:01

We only made those promises because we didn't want to be heckled and made look silly. The thing is that we are at one with the governmetn and the employers, sure we are their partners. If we were to campaign seriously against the bin tax it would mean that we mite upset these partners. We think it is more important that bin men be intimidated by council officials and that privitisation come in than for us to leave our plush offices. So my advice is to just be content after all there's nothing that can be done really.

BTW
i'd just like to congratulate the SWP in standing against Des Derwin. All the lads in the office are happy as it looks like there will be no left candidate standing to embarass us.

by Lounge staff - MANDATE Mon Nov 03, 2003 21:45

I seem to remember (Tom Ryan?) (President?) of the Dublin Council of Trade Unions promising "A vigorous and sustained campaign by the Dublin Council of Trade Unions against the bin tax and the jailings in conjunction with other Trades Councils across the country." Correct? If so? When are the Dublin Council of trade Unions going to get up off their arses and keep to their promises on this? If there is anyone from the Dublin of Trade Unions or anyone else in the know about this reading this could they let us know what action if any that the Trade Unions are planning over this.

by lahunda Mon Nov 03, 2003 21:19

Mick is right, we ARE showing contempt for their courts.

They are capitalist courts, Fianna Fail fines, PD injunctions, Fine Gael judges, Labour prison sentences, Green Party cops.

We should be proud in showing contempt for these courts and thier law.

BTW
I included the LP because they do support bin tax, but just quibble over the details. Amny of their cllrs voted for the tax also.

by ec Mon Nov 03, 2003 18:28

The 8 others have been threatened with jail AND a substantial fine tomorrow morning. Seems they are determined to raise the bar higher for those determined to resist imposition of the bin tax.

And Mags - about the alphabet soup (- fair enuff to whoever published the latest if ppl from those groups were in court previously -) - let more non-aligned people involved in the campaign know about indymedia and that might change.

Stick web address on the next set of (classy) posters perhaps? After all 50% of households in erron are now on the net.

by Terry Mon Nov 03, 2003 18:12

Is this the first time that people up on an injunction have been fined.

What happens if they refuse to pay the fine?

And who gets the money from the fine? Is it the council?

So it's looks like they have finally privatised democracy. It costs 250 euros to protest!

by Mags Mon Nov 03, 2003 17:59

Just heard 8 of the people up apologised and promised to be good in future. But each was still fined E250.

The remainder were told to come back to court tomorrow.

On another note - why is it that almost every single post on the Bin Charges issue has to list an alphabet soup of 'groups'?

The strength of this campaign is in normal ordinary residents in working class areas, who are not members of any of these groups and could not care less. Can people drop the political navel gazing between leftie factions. Thanks.

by Tom Mon Nov 03, 2003 17:15

I fully support the Bin Charges campaign but just one point re the above article.

While Mick Murphy is right in referring to "purging his contempt" he is unwittingly falling into the establishment's trap by using their language. The government, councils and the courts love to use language like "contempt" in an attempt to criminalise legitimate protesters. We should avoid such language.

Mick Murphy and his comrades, whether SP, SWP, SF, ISN, WP, CP or not affiliated, are 'legally in contempt of court' but morally they are correct. The court says they have shown contempt towards it for not complying with its order. The real contempt being shown is by the local councils who are showing contempt for PAYE taxpayers and by the Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, PD, Labour and other councillors who have voted for these charges.

Keep up the good work Mick, and everyone else, but WATCH YOUR LANGUAGE!!!