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A critique of the Socialist Party

category national | worker & community struggles and protests | opinion/analysis author Thursday August 12, 2004 15:51author by Johnauthor address Belfast Report this post to the editors

A critique of the socialist party and its organisation and in general the failure of the left to address the issue of power politics.

This is a serious thread so no trolling or sectarian abuse please.

I have been recently been reading an article on the socialist party site (www.geocities.com/socialistpaty) in reply to the politics of the SSP, and I cant believe the arrogance and shere fancyfullness of its content.

Indeed I could go so far and argue that the CWI is no controlled by "Walther Mitty".

Let me first begin. Kevin Williamson of the SSP has argued that many Trots, particulary of Militant have jumped ship in favour of power and privilige - Indeed this is somewhat very true. Williamson lists a number of former leading Militant activists who are now engaged in "New Labour" or big business.

It is a fact that Militant lost huge numbers of people, from its hayday in the eighties, many of whom have gone to the right or are dissolutioned with the undemocratic SP brand of politics. This can hardly be denied, although im sure it will be.

What is the SP's answer to this accusation of the huge loss of membership - as if scribed by Walther Mitty himself and I quote:

" Kevin deliberately ignores the vastly greater number of members of the Militant and the CWI who are or have fought and sacrificed for the cause of socialism and the working class...... The CWI has been extremely successful in being able to build real roots among the working class in a number of countries including leading mass struggles"

Since 1990, where have been these "Mass Struggles?" It can be argued that the Bin Tax was a struggle, but it was hardly on a "Mass" scale, while it did attract popular working class support, a significant majority of the working class didnt get involved, further to this the SP in way led the anti bin tax movement, it played a leading role with other groups, the same can be said for the anti war movement.

In the Anti war movement the SP couldnt gather over 100 demonstrators at any demonstration, where is its mass appeal to workers and youth?

Interestingly and correctly the SSP talks about power politics and the absolute failure of the SP for example, in this we must include other trot groups such as the swp etc, to come up with solutions to prevent the "Vanguard" leadership from lording it over the people and the dependence of such groups on mere propaganda cries:

"There is a theory (of sorts) that future socialism will mean committees, or councils of actions, elected in workplaces and local communities and these will then elect representatives to bigger councils and these will then elect representatives to regional and then to national councils and these will then elect representatives to an all-European Council and then from each continent to a future World Socialist Government.

And somehow by regurgitating a few glib phrases about accountability and rotation of delegates this will somehow not inevitably end up as the totalitarian nightmare of centralist control that we witnessed in the former Soviet Union, China and Eastern Europe.

Such fanatical, narrow-minded concepts of what socialism might look like don't stand up to even the most gentle of examinations.

Even in our own movement of parties, organisations and platforms, we see that those in elected positions rarely put job rotation into practice and regularly step down to make way for someone else, but instead continually put themselves up for re-election.

Would it be any different in a post-capitalist society?"

In equal reply the SP have argued history:

"These delegates were accountable, took no extra privileges and were subject to the immediate right of recall and replacement by the workers they represented.

They were established by the working class in the white heat of revolutionary struggle as a conscious expression of their desire to build a new society under their control. It was for this reason that Trotsky described the Soviets as the most democratic form of organisation in human history."

For some reason I wouldn't trust anyone who goes by democratic centralism. Can you really envisage a leadership of a vanguard giving up or rotating it power - it wouldnt happen.

I am interested to hear what others have to say on these two issues, Firsty the failure of the left to address the issue of power and the absolute fancefullness of the Socialist Party.

Please dont ruin this thread with sectarian abuse or trolling.

 #   Title   Author   Date 
   "Please dont ruin this thread with sectarian abuse or trolling"     C sna C    Thu Aug 12, 2004 16:17 
   Jumping off the good ship lefty!     RED BHOY    Thu Aug 12, 2004 16:27 
   Good Article     Hebe    Thu Aug 12, 2004 16:39 
   Socialism and power     karl kautsky    Thu Aug 12, 2004 17:48 
   A strange way of looking at things     hs    Thu Aug 12, 2004 18:53 
   HS     Hebe    Thu Aug 12, 2004 18:57 
   hebe     hs    Thu Aug 12, 2004 19:14 
   gotta go but...     hs    Thu Aug 12, 2004 19:34 
   Hardly a critique John     SP Member    Thu Aug 12, 2004 20:08 
 10   don´t confuse ends and means     soviet_1917    Fri Aug 13, 2004 00:16 
 11   I'm not sure I'm a comrade-     ;-)    Fri Aug 13, 2004 00:44 
 12   From a dissident.........     Shane    Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:58 
 13   SP dissident     karl kautsky    Fri Aug 13, 2004 13:12 
 14   the SP     Shane    Fri Aug 13, 2004 13:20 
 15   "The SP are not like that"     karl kautsky    Fri Aug 13, 2004 13:42 
 16   tut tut Shane     MOB fan    Fri Aug 13, 2004 13:52 
 17   Fair play Shane...     meme    Fri Aug 13, 2004 15:09 
 18   Couple of important facts     tallaght echo    Fri Aug 13, 2004 16:15 
 19   Re-Echo     SPuppy SPotter    Fri Aug 13, 2004 16:23 
 20   Is this for real?     Curious    Fri Aug 13, 2004 16:24 
 21   Shane and the LP     Peter Hadden    Fri Aug 13, 2004 16:39 
 22   Shane should clarify Labour and FF links     clarify    Fri Aug 13, 2004 16:41 
 23   clarify     Muck watch    Fri Aug 13, 2004 16:48 
 24   Labour are not democratic     Labour watch    Fri Aug 13, 2004 16:51 
 25   SP Are Not Democratic     SPuppy SPotter    Fri Aug 13, 2004 17:05 
 26   You don't know what you're talking about     bantam    Fri Aug 13, 2004 17:12 
 27   Sorry state of SP affairs     PT    Fri Aug 13, 2004 17:45 
 28   Funny old thing...     Padraig    Fri Aug 13, 2004 17:51 
 29   Bantam     SPuppy SPotter    Fri Aug 13, 2004 17:55 
 30   A critique of the thread     jude    Fri Aug 13, 2004 17:56 
 31   Socialism and the national question     Khalid    Fri Aug 13, 2004 18:21 
 32   Khalid/Padraig     SPuppy SPotter    Fri Aug 13, 2004 18:44 
 33   I wil not take your advice     Khalid    Fri Aug 13, 2004 18:51 
 34   Khalid     SPuppy SPotter    Fri Aug 13, 2004 18:56 
 35   One of the stupidest threads I've seen in a while     Brian C.    Fri Aug 13, 2004 19:16 
 36   Brian C     SPuppy SPotter    Fri Aug 13, 2004 19:21 
 37   Boring     anon    Fri Aug 13, 2004 19:38 
 38   Ignoring my own advice     Brian C.    Fri Aug 13, 2004 19:44 
 39   Brian C     SPuppy SPotter    Fri Aug 13, 2004 19:56 
 40   a reminder     dennis tourish    Sat Aug 14, 2004 03:02 
 41   On this site     .    Sat Aug 14, 2004 08:55 
 42   Dennis thank you     Belfast    Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:04 
 43   Origional source     SP member (personal capacity)    Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:08 
 44   Good to see our old buddy Denis Tourish back     SP Member    Sat Aug 14, 2004 13:58 
 45   SP     Conor    Sat Aug 14, 2004 13:59 
 46   BTW     Informer    Sat Aug 14, 2004 14:08 
 47   Conor     .    Sat Aug 14, 2004 20:51 
 48   thanks, conor     dennis tourish    Sun Aug 15, 2004 02:02 
 49   Marx Brothers     companero    Sun Aug 15, 2004 10:21 
 50   TO: Mr/s dot - an anon SP member     Conor    Sun Aug 15, 2004 16:34 
 51   Conor     f    Sun Aug 15, 2004 18:25 
 52   Fingin     Conor    Sun Aug 15, 2004 20:57 
 53   who really abused CFE     david grey    Mon Aug 16, 2004 12:23 
 54   Stotts Reply     SPuppy SPotter    Mon Aug 16, 2004 12:33 
 55   Trotsky and Terror     karl kautsky    Mon Aug 16, 2004 13:16 
 56   Shane in Labour     Labour Watch    Mon Aug 16, 2004 17:10 
 57   Labourwatch     SPwatch    Mon Aug 16, 2004 17:33 
 58   is marc back?     interested    Mon Aug 16, 2004 18:18 
 59   Now that you've brought it to the Troikas attention...     SPwatch    Mon Aug 16, 2004 18:22 
 60   david grey - or what ever the fuck your real name is.     james redmond (wsm pers cap)    Mon Aug 16, 2004 18:37 
 61   origins of the socialist party     interested    Mon Aug 16, 2004 18:44 
 62   SP Internal Squabbles     007    Mon Aug 16, 2004 18:48 
 63   incidently     interested    Mon Aug 16, 2004 18:48 
 64   Dismissing dissent     Mary Muldowney    Mon Aug 16, 2004 23:30 
 65   Re Karl Kausty and others.     Lenonist Front    Tue Aug 17, 2004 00:00 
 66   Re Lenonist:     Badman    Tue Aug 17, 2004 00:56 
 67   democracy and debate     archivist    Tue Aug 17, 2004 01:41 
 68   "Lenonist"     karl kautsky    Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:16 
 69   Clarification re No campaign     f    Tue Aug 17, 2004 13:50 
 70   f     007    Tue Aug 17, 2004 18:50 
 71   stop talking shite     dont feed trolls    Wed Aug 18, 2004 01:43 
 72   Blast from the past     Archivist    Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:37 
 73   an interestring hypothesis     theorist    Wed Aug 18, 2004 14:09 
 74   To dont feed the trolls....     Down with sort of thing    Wed Aug 18, 2004 15:29 
 75   SP NO Vote campaign     Michelle    Wed Aug 18, 2004 19:21 
 76   For the record:     Recordman    Wed Aug 18, 2004 21:00 
 77   Referendum campaign     f    Wed Aug 18, 2004 21:13 
 78   "huge corporate donations"     karl radek    Thu Aug 19, 2004 09:43 
 79   SF do recieve big business donations     Sf watch    Thu Aug 19, 2004 14:28 
 80   "Everybody knows that 'Friends of SF' get the vast bulk of their donations from corporate America"     Curious    Thu Aug 19, 2004 15:03 
 81   Complete lies     Icey McPickPick    Thu Aug 19, 2004 15:24 
 82   Steady on Icey McPickPick     Finglas voter    Thu Aug 19, 2004 15:32 
 83   screw you - unbelivers     loyalist    Thu Aug 19, 2004 15:37 
 84   Score card of the parties     Badman    Thu Aug 19, 2004 16:12 
 85   "Elections are great aren't they."     realist    Thu Aug 19, 2004 16:19 
 86   And of course parties are going to put their electoral prospects first     Ray    Thu Aug 19, 2004 16:38 
 87   To be fair Ray     CARR supporter    Thu Aug 19, 2004 17:02 
 88   Ahem     Badman    Thu Aug 19, 2004 17:04 
 89   Not right     Edward    Thu Aug 19, 2004 17:43 
 90   Being unfair?     Ray    Thu Aug 19, 2004 17:58 
 91   Proof of corporate donations     SIPOC    Thu Aug 19, 2004 18:06 
 92   Here's the rest     SIPOC    Thu Aug 19, 2004 18:10 
 93   Corporate Donations     observer    Thu Aug 19, 2004 18:35 
 94   Illiteracy obviously a problem for some     Careful Reader.    Thu Aug 19, 2004 18:54 
 95   "Leitrim Steelfixers Ltd"     observer    Thu Aug 19, 2004 19:01 
 96   Again     Careful Reader    Thu Aug 19, 2004 19:15 
 97   Leitrim Steelfixers     observer    Thu Aug 19, 2004 19:22 
 98   Patronising     Careful Reader    Thu Aug 19, 2004 19:40 
 99   Cop on     Author name (required)    Thu Aug 19, 2004 20:22 
 100   chuckie ar la     chuck    Thu Aug 19, 2004 20:34 
 101   Labour     Careful Reader    Thu Aug 19, 2004 20:37 
 102   A critique of the Irish Left and indymedia     peter    Thu Aug 19, 2004 20:50 
 103   A critique of Peter's post and other posts criticising indymedia     paul    Fri Aug 20, 2004 01:17 
 104   Wrong, wrong, wrong     Me    Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:10 
 105   Read it again 'observer'     SIPOC    Fri Aug 20, 2004 15:50 
 106   Leitrim Steel-fixers     SIPOC    Fri Aug 20, 2004 15:59 
 107   Leitrim Steel fixers     observer    Fri Aug 20, 2004 16:09 
 108   Watch out radioactive man.... Its the SP     Required    Fri Aug 20, 2004 17:35 
 109   Observer     murky    Fri Aug 20, 2004 17:45 
 110   SP money     observer    Fri Aug 20, 2004 19:04 
 111   Murky wit     observer    Fri Aug 20, 2004 19:40 
 112   Get a room guys     Amused and disgusted    Fri Aug 20, 2004 20:08 
 113   we have heard this shit a million times here     old timer    Fri Aug 20, 2004 20:57 
 114   agreed     agreed    Fri Aug 20, 2004 22:20 
 115   Finglas Voter     SPwatch    Sun Aug 22, 2004 15:09 
 116   To Clarify     Marc Mulholland    Sun Aug 22, 2004 20:41 
 117   on cwi events     former militant member    Mon Aug 23, 2004 02:14 
 118   Foresight versus astonishment     Badman    Mon Aug 23, 2004 02:59 
 119   more predictions     former militant member    Mon Aug 23, 2004 09:41 
 120   Was Throne at the Summer School??.... NO     sane person    Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:55 
 121   reply to (in)sane person     former militant member    Mon Aug 23, 2004 13:58 
 122   SP watch     Finglas Voter    Mon Aug 23, 2004 17:01 
 123   Finglas Referendum     Colm Breathnach    Mon Aug 23, 2004 20:53 
 124   Labour No Campaign     Labour member    Mon Aug 23, 2004 21:36 
 125   Labour's performance     Badman    Mon Aug 23, 2004 22:09 
 126   for thr record     dermot connolly    Tue Aug 24, 2004 17:20 
 127   One step forward, two steps back     A socialist    Tue Aug 24, 2004 18:25 
 128   wood for the trees     Chekov    Tue Aug 24, 2004 18:43 
 129   Dermot     karl kautsky    Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:57 
 130   Dermot Connolly's contribution     Still Militant    Wed Aug 25, 2004 15:35 
 131   Interesting article on Sectarianism     Archivist    Wed Aug 25, 2004 15:46 
 132   Umm     Ray    Wed Aug 25, 2004 15:47 
 133   Dermot's views     analyst    Fri Aug 27, 2004 14:09 
 134   the struggle against left sectarianism     john throne    Fri Aug 27, 2004 20:56 
 135   "... standing ovation in the hall - four minutes".     old fashioned communist.    Fri Aug 27, 2004 21:08 
 136   trench warfare     mr data    Fri Aug 27, 2004 23:42 
 137   Re analyst     Lennonist front    Sat Aug 28, 2004 00:55 
 138   re trading insults     keepitshort    Sat Aug 28, 2004 02:15 
 139   and lennon is on sale again.     david bowie    Sat Aug 28, 2004 02:18 
 140   Analyst seems to need some analysis     Skewed    Sat Aug 28, 2004 16:38 
 141   Skewed     Ex Militant    Sun Aug 29, 2004 17:26 
 142   Oh Guys     contrarian    Sun Aug 29, 2004 19:26 
 143   latest from sp on socialist alliance     s. voice    Sun Aug 29, 2004 22:45 
 144   Just a few comments     The other Paul    Mon Aug 30, 2004 00:22 
 145   Re Dean / keapitshort     R. Isible    Mon Aug 30, 2004 05:04 
 146   Convenient oversight     Skewed    Mon Aug 30, 2004 13:43 
 147   Skewed & Konfused     Badman    Mon Aug 30, 2004 15:22 
 148   Skew(er)ed     karl kautsky    Mon Aug 30, 2004 15:45 
 149   I refer you to my first post     Skewed    Mon Aug 30, 2004 16:34 
 150   A useful insight into democratic centralism, by Louis Project     Helpful person    Wed Sep 01, 2004 13:00 


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