Paddy Woodworth's crappy talk

by paulc Thu Sep 09, 2004 18:22

http://www.acis.com "travel changes life" educational tours?

and

Paddy Woodworth

is currently assistant foreign desk editor at the Irish Times with responsibility for developing Spanish and Latin American coverage.

Books by Paddy Woodworth :
Dirty War, Clean Hands
ETA, the GAL and Spanish Democracy
?

by Crappy Thu Sep 09, 2004 18:29

So it was "crappy" because you didn't agree with it, is that it?

by Jo Take Thu Sep 09, 2004 18:30

His book on GAL is well overrated and a fairly limp expose of Spanish state terrorism at best. He also felt it neccessary to mention the physical attractiveness of one Basque woman he interviewed. He wrote an absolutely idiotic article for the Irish Times "Fear and Loathing in the Basque country" which basically was summarised by his shocking relevation that an anti-ETA journalist friend of his feels uncomfortable dining out in certain areas of Donostia/S. Sebastian.

Unfortunately, Woodward has cornered the gig as Irish "expert" on Basque affairs but the man's perception is solidly tied to the Spanish state's view that "a few mistakes were made but it's all ETA's fault anyway"

by Rational thinker Thu Sep 09, 2004 18:34

Just wanted to comment on the naivety of the statement: "It is obvious that only those who cut down our human rights benefit from it! "
Anyone who has lived or studied the situation in the 6counties/Norn Iron/ would know that depriving people of their rights makes them: 1. Angry 2. willing to contemplate joining paramilitary organisations such as the IRA in order to give the "state" a bloody nose back.
"Terrorists" such as ETA engage in what they themselves term "deepening the contradictions" of the conflict. EG: Attack the state, The state lashes back at the populace and as a result more angry young men and women from (often but not all the time) socially deprived backgrounds join a militant group.
As for capitalism not being compatible with democracy - statements like that just remind me of first year arts students who have suddenly discovered marxism and are eager to gobble up the jargon.

by Someone Thu Sep 09, 2004 19:37

Fair enough, making people angry makes more of them join paramilitary organizations, that's why the latter exist in the first place! (the ones the State doesn't sponsor, I mean). Mr Rational thinker should wonder a little about his statement that '...young men and women from (often but not all the time) socially deprived backgrounds join a militant group.'

Regarding his last statement: 'As for capitalism not being compatible with democracy - statements like that just remind me of first year arts students who have suddenly discovered marxism and are eager to gobble up the jargon'. He'd be interested to know that I long left behind my 'first year student' times, not in arts but in sociology, and that my encounter with marxist ideology has been more of an encounter with reality through lengthy social research. Simply get out there where violent conflict happens and watch and listen by yourself.
Capitalism and Imperialism has emptied the word 'democracy' of meaning, there's no such thing as 'government by the people'.

by Rational thinker Thu Sep 09, 2004 19:58

Seemed to have touched a cord within "someone" if the tetchiness of his clumsy response is anything to go by.
Just for the record, I'm not a "Mr" Rational thinker. The fact that you assume anyone engaging in debate is male betrays a conservative streak which not even your supposed lengthy social research has been able to eradicate.
Hope we're agreed on one thing though. It's not just the State which benefits from depriving someone of their civil rights. Supposed terrorists/so-called freedom fighters also benefit.
One last thought. Shouldn't elements of the Irish left ditch any sympathy it has for ETA? After all, we're talking about an organisation which trades on a narrow-minded reactionary ideology, one which seeks motivate group identity on the basis of an atavistic nationalism rather than class solidarity.

by another contributor Thu Sep 09, 2004 21:01

In repsponse to the debate between rational thinker and someone, I agree that to presume someones gender is wrong but necessarily does not imple conservatism as rational thinker also seems to presume that someone is male and indeed presumes that someone is Irish. is this also conservative thinking, (i refer to Rational thinkers arguments where "his" and "irish" are terms used).

Alos in relation to the motivations of ETA being based on ethnic/mationalim rather than class soldiarity I'm afraid thats not exactly true. They espouse( I dont necessarily agree with it though) a workers state and a class struggle involving all nationalities.

One last point in terms of capitalism and democracy. We in the "West" espouse democracy and even fight and invade for it yet we fight kill and invade for a western capitalist based democracy, The US is the example of this form of democracy, well in this example capitalism is to the fore and capitalism is based on having and not having, to be successful you need someone to fail you need someone to exploit, look at globalisation and at expliutation of workers, all the things early trade unions fought for here and now needed in developing countires but if we continue to expand capitalist democracy then I'm afraid I agree that capitalism does not have anything to do with democracy in thie sense that democracy is about government by the people for ALL the people

by Rational thinker Thu Sep 09, 2004 21:26

Point taken, "another contributor". I probably shouldn't have presumed that "someone" was male, just because they made such a presumption first. Would still suggest that it tends to be conservatives of one sort or another who presume that women don't take part in this form of debate.
As for ETA. Just because a political movement "espouses" a workers struggle does that necessarily mean that they are genuinely left-wing. What if other elements of their professed ideology are at odds with their marxist posture. One example might be ETA's (to use your apt term) ethno-nationalism.
It's the case that ETA shares much in common with some of the worst reactionaries in the Basque Nationalist Party(PNV). Ie, that a Basque "volk" exists, composed of people with similar genetic identities and blood-lines. Psuedo, Nazi-type science.
Also, if they are a truely socialist organisation, why doesn't ETA believe that a future workers state could encompass not just preferred region of "Euskadi", and not the neighbouring regions. An Iberian workers state even.
It's just so difficult to get away from the fact that ETA have developed a habit of shooting journalists and elected reps from not just the Partido Popular but also the PSOE. Ok, the PP are the inheritors of Franco's legacy and the PSOE produced GAL, as well as embracing neo-liberal policies, but their elected reps are exactly that. Elected. By "workers" and others.
How can anyone not agree that ETA and are political dinosaurs? SF and the republican movement's embrace of politics and abandonment of war shows up ETA in a particularly poor light. A bunch of not very intelligent bone-heads.
Finally, can anyone remember the last time that the forces of the Spanish state was respsonsible for shooting/bombing someone to death in the Basque country. The fact remains that in recent times the rationale for the existance of ETA has been removed. OK, they may have been justified as a response to Francoist repression, as well as the state-sponsored terror which was common after the transition in the early 1980's. Now ETA should simply retire, and impressionistic Irish sympathisers seeking some sort of Sandinistas in Europe should look elsewhere.

by someone else entirely Thu Sep 09, 2004 21:41 who is not in limerick for talks, indeed who hasn't been in limerick since 1986.

And might not be "up to scratch" on the chronology-
It deals with an organisation that was alledgedly state approved, but most definitely had access to state resources and included employees of the state security forces in the first PSOE government of the Spain.

This was in the period of Spain's "fledgling democracy" - the PSOE won the first completely free elections led by González , after an agreed interim government had carried the peninsula through the instability and uncertainty of Franco's death, the subsequent dismantling of the military dictatorship and the beginning of the slow but steady progress to a state [which considered in terms of all it's citizens] in some ways is an exemplary democracy and in others one of the most troubled in Europe.

Despite a lot of investigation, and a lot of books, there are yet to surface any concrete proofs linking González with the GAL and they therefore proceeded from another "section of interest" in the "nation" or "state". González lost his government (after several terms) to a coalition of Aznar and the Catalan nationalist CIU as a result of the scandal of the scandal.

This was also a period of prolonged negotiation with ETA, which eventually led to ceasefires for which Nobel Peace prizes were issued, and the prize money spent during the first Aznar term.

Aznar's second term saw him govern with an absolute majority and implement a number of agreements signed in the first term with other powers including the USA and France.

the PSOE under the leadership of Zapatero came to power in 2004 as the benificiary of a long campaign had been fought against Aznar's excesses by the Left and in the immediate follow up to the March 11th Madrid bombings.

Paddy Woodworth was a staff reporter at the Irish Times from 1988 to 2002. He is now according to a website he is closely associated with, working on three new books. A novel based in the Basque country, (hence I suppose the loving descriptions of basque beauty) a comparison of conflict in Northern Ireland and the Basque, and a book onthe migratory patterns of birds.

there are already a plethora of books in many languages which deal with the Spanish and Basque terror issue.
Eoin O Broin the SF Belfast councillor has written a book outlining the history of socialist republicanism (HB) and it's physical force tradition (ETA) in the Basque.

None of these Irish writers actually live in the places they write about, but they do go on visits and are well thought of by their respective hosts and are probably never short of a postcard.


If you'd like to buy the Woodworth book here are the details-
Dirty War, Clean Hands: Eta, the Gal and Spanish Democracy ISBN:
1859182763 - Hardcover - List Price: $29.00

by Anon Thu Sep 09, 2004 21:45

Virginia Woolf:

"I would venture to guess that Anon, who wrote so many poems without signing them, was often a woman."

by Someone becoming 'rational' - Anti-cop land Fri Sep 10, 2004 14:45

Actually, 'rational thinker', I have gone to the type of sources you use and I have learned that ETA members not only support an outdated ethno-nationalism on a pure PNV style but that they have three eyes and two arses, and they get covered in hair all over in full-moon nights –for f. sake! (actually, the only transformation some people in this thread suffer is off work when they change their cop clothes) Also, they are not really left wing, which is why capitalists like them so much (ups! do they?). Plus, yes, why support the creation of a socialist Basque Country when they could instead pursue socialism within a 'united, great and free' Spain? Why not be a SPANISH NATIONALIST instead? You see, the ultimate cause of ETA’s violence is the full moon, but how can you argue with nature.

by Rational thinker Fri Sep 10, 2004 18:31

Sure, maybe it is the full moon that makes 'Eterras' go out and inflict so much "regrettable" (their term) suffering among the civilian population. I'd say it's more to do with misguided ideals and pumped up romantic notions about nationhood.
In terms of 'sources', what I have to say about ETA is based on living and working in the Basque Country, rather than consulting second-hand opinions.

by Anreas Nin Fri Sep 10, 2004 18:38

Comrades. Is it really safe to assume that ETA are socialists just because capitalists don't like them? The Spanish United Left ( IU) aren't exactly keen on them either!

by Someone becomming rational Fri Sep 10, 2004 19:02

I am Basque and left wing and in reply to when was the last time someone was killed in the Basque country by Spanish Security forces, two people were killed in March after the Madrid bombings,

One man shot by a policeman after he refused to place an anti eta sign in his shop and a woman shot by a plastic bullet at a protestmarch against the killing of the first man.

I am sorry but its boring following this line of debate because some people abviously dont know their facts and presume a lot.

by Joe Punter Sat Sep 11, 2004 13:38

I heard about the guy who was killed when he refused to put the sign in the window.
And i hate to ask this question, but what has been the ration of people killed by etA over the last 10 years and people killed by the Spanish policee. ?
I thought that up until the Madrid bombings ETA had been killing a lot more.

by Someone Mon Sep 20, 2004 00:00

Yeah, what's the ratio? Because depending on which side has more deads, the killing of the Basque citizen after the Madrid bombings will be the vulneration of a fundamental human right to live or a correct delivery of death!!! Cop on, Joe Punter!!!
Think before you write!