Wheelie-bin refuse charges could double

by no response needed Wed Apr 27, 2005 18:24

no response needed

by Dermot Lacey Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:56

I really do not want to get into more irrelevant arguements with Mr Warren with whom I have had correspondence before.

So for the record one final time.

1) Service Charges were already in the Estimates when I was Lord Mayor. This had commenced two or three years previously when I was not one of the people who supported their inclusion. Interestingly they were passed on foot of half the SF group being absent - no doubt for good reasons.

2) Like all representatives involved in real politics, as opposed to the "hurlers on the ditch" I had to make a decision on which of several options was best for the City.

3) Agree or disagree with me as you wish but I believed it was better that the City Council should survive and that the charges should be set at the lowest level possible.

4) The alternative was that the Council would be abolished a Commisioner appointed, higher charges introduced and in all probability a far less flexile waiver scheme introduced.

5) Based on that record I took the chance stood for re-election and was re-elected as were the highest number of Labour Councillors ever on Dublin City Council.

6) Whether Mr Warren, my fellow SIPTU member on this site or anyone else likes it, I believe that the stand I took was the correct one in the interests of ordinary people. Of course some people disagree and oppose the stand I took. I accept that and unlike many other people who hold my view I have been prepared to openly debate it in public, on line, on the airwaves and on any other fora requested.

7)

I have no intention of contesting an election for any other Party than Labour of which I have been a proud member since I was 17.

Dermot Lacey

by H.Warren Tue Apr 26, 2005 02:34

Mr Lacey "Stand for election against you"?

My friends, neighbours and colleagues are happy to vote against you.

Shame on you. If you want to have any credibility please stand as an independent candidate in any forth coming election or do the decent thing and join your masters in FF/PD's

H.Warren

by Stephen Lewis.SIPTU Member(personal capacity) Fri Apr 08, 2005 23:15

You display nothing but the most callous disregard Mr.Lacey for a union that represents over 70,000 members in the Dublin area.

SIPTU members have continously oppossed the double tax that is the bin tax and indeed SIPTU leader Mr. Jack O'Connor has publicly stated that the refuse charges are both unjust and unfair.Mr O'Connor further states that the issue of refuse collection should be funded from central government revenue.

I believe the party of which you are a member of ,the Labour Party is financed to a degree by SIPTU.You are to the best of my knowledge a member of SIPTU for a number of years and you are well aware of your Unions policy on the bin tax.

You are a disgrace Mr. Lacey to SIPTU and you bring dishonour to the many thousands of members of SIPTU in the Dublin region.

No doubt you will continue to display arrogance and contempt for ordinary hard working decent tax complient citizens.

Some day Mr. Lacey I hope you learn the value of humility, humbleness and quite dignity.And that you will realise the error of your ways and apologise for your disgraceful behaviour in voting to further punish the working class and ordinary union members of Dublin with yet further increases in what is already an unjust tax burden.

I have no wish to further engage in this debate with you .I have already made efforts within SIPTU to have you challenged.And I will continue to challenge you within SIPTU.

by C sna C Fri Apr 08, 2005 19:28

"I do what I believe is right and in the best interests of the people."

What did you do, Councillor, look into your heart, and see that bin-tax was "in the best interests of the people" and vote FF? You ran for election with the backing of the Labour Brand name and voted against Labour policy so we know with what contempt you treat your own voters nevermind the people in general.

And you say that I "..will I suspect in years to come be a PD or FF voting middle class professional recalling those far off days when you had your radical kicks".

Well Sherlock Lacey/ Dermo Nostradamus -whatever about your suspicions for the future, I can say that I have never voted FF/FG/PD in my life, unlike a certain purveyor of anti-left cliches.

by Dermot Lacey Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:21

If SIPTU has a different position than mine so be it. Mind you I did not notice it featuring highly in the Sustaining Progress discussions.

As a democrat I do what I believe is right and in the best interests of the people. If you do not agree with me stand for election against me.

by Siptu member Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:17

Well Dermot 'champion of Social Democracy' Lacey.
No comment on being out of step with your union?

by Dermot Lacey Thu Apr 07, 2005 19:35

Apart from the reference to people on indymedia being s..t. which I would not say. I could not have said it better myself so well done Comrade, you will I suspect in years to come be a PD or FF voting middle class professional recalling those far off days when you had your radical kicks, when some of us will still be pushing for Social Democratic progress. So get a life and leave those of us working for progress alone. Hope that annoyed you sufficiently.

by seedot Thu Apr 07, 2005 17:25

As a member of the anti bin tax campaign here in the city, I can accept that one of the outcomes of the charges has been an increase in recycling - both here in Dublin and around the country. I think if we are going to come up with a solution on this we will need to move from the entrenched positions on both sides: where we in Dublin are classed as cheapskates / environmentally unfriendly and we view everybody in the country as middle class individualists who gave up the fight for public services too soon ;-).

One aspect would be that waste management will be different in different areas - depending on housing density, existence of gardens (for composting and storing of bins), transport etc. This is obviously an argument for returning control of this to local authorities so that local solutions can be devised. The optimal solution for a block of flats or terraced housing in a large urban area will be different to that of single houses in a rural area which also generate farm waste.

I am very worried about the public health aspect of non-collection and of leaving bins for up to a month - even with increased recycling. I think your points about the fixed charge in Dublin are correct - indeed the courts here have found them illegal, with Judge Lindsay finding against the council in the Robert Power case and stating that the charges did not abide by the polluter pays principle. Even the sort of half way house we have at the moment - with a combination of flat rate and lift charges doesn't account for weight and doesn't fully reward those who recycle - even if they are willing to leave waste in their yard/kitchen for a month (which is v. different to the end of the garden with a block on it).

On the bring centres: when I bought a compost bin I had to drive to Summerhill to get the bin (bought two, one for a neighbour but that was all I could fit in the car). Ringsend was the only other choice. Both of these centres have fantastic facilities, similar to those you mention. However they are the only two for a city of 750,000 people. Most of the rest is overflowing bottle banks - which are rarely close enought to walk to. No way to recycle tetra paks, plastics etc.

We do have a monthly green bin collection - however as Terry has pointed out we believe that this will be charged for since the Review of waste management has linked the price of the bin tax to the need for revenue - nothing to do with encouraging recycling. If you compare the plastic bag levy a big difference is that this had an impact on waste production - instead of disposal. Supporting the bin tax and by extension the leaving of waste on the streets of Dublin will do nothing at all to clean up the streets and any impact on recycling will be more than offset by the public health risk created and the strain it will place on our already creaking recycling facilities.

As for bonfires - I saw Donegal in Parnell Park a few weeks ago - totally agree with your assessment. We're not great and only won by a point - but we won't face Armagh / Tyrone or Fermanagh in the provincials.

by Inishowen Reader Thu Apr 07, 2005 16:28

A number of good Q's here Seedot, I'll answer those that i can.

1. You are right, car ownership is a lot higher in rural areas but so is the sense of community and just as you would give a neighbour a lift to the nearest town to do shopping, or would collect/deliver anything else for them, people do bring other peoples recycleables to the centres.

2. Both recycling centres here are open on a saturday, not sure about after hours during the week.

3. Both centres have bottle banks. The one in Carndonagh that I use has seperate banks for bottles, tetrapak, cardboard, paper, plastic, polystyrine, tin cans, clothes, lightbulbs and also an area for old fridges, furniture, tv's etc

4. The stuff that goes in the bin at the moment is cooked food, a lot of disposable nappies, some tin foil and some packaging...cant rightly think of the rest of it at the moment but theres not a lot.
We keep the bin in the back yard, sealed with an old concrete block sitting on top of it. There is no problem with smell or flies, and i cant remember if there was much of an issue last summer either, its damn cold here at the moment!

5. Green waste isn't a problem, most houses at this stage have compost bins and just after Christmas people could leave their christmas trees and holly etc up at the recycling centres for free.

6. I dont know how the council cover the costs of the recycling centers, presumably it comes under their own Environment department budget and again I dont know if there is a committment to keeping it free or not.

The other point to mention is that all this is going on against a background of a recent ban on burning bonfires even out in the countryside and you can be fined if you do light a fire - which ain't so bad this year because theres no way Donegal are going to win an Ulster or the Sam in 2005, so no need for bonfires!!

Recycling has definitely required a change in attitude around here. When bin charges were non existent or negligible, everything was thrown in the bin, only a few 'greenies' or 'nutters' bothered. Now that putting out the bin hits you hard in the pocket, everyone is recycling.

A bit like the taxes on plastic bags, everyone said the inconvenience would be atrocious, and what about the pensioners and what about this that and the other excuse, but in the end it has been the biggest single contributor to tidying up the countryside. - by the way, our proximity to Derry and the north means we are still not as tidied up on that front as parts further south so the sooner the levy comes in there the better.


So anyway Seedot, thats all I can tell you at the moment, people up here are making long round-trips to use recycling centres, you Dublin based people should do the same.

by Terry Thu Apr 07, 2005 14:35

In Dublin, the recycling firm Oxigen is contracted to collect and handle the recycling waste from households by the Dublin councils. They do not offer this service to the council for free.

At the moment , the councils are absorbing this cost. It is extremely unlikely that they will do this indefinitely and it is possible it will be against 'competition law' when and if (and I say if because the anti-bin tax campaign can still win) the full waste collection service is privatised.

Already in Fingal, in those areas where residents have both Green and Gray bins, the bin tags are 5 euro whereas in the Gray bin only areas, they are 3 euro. This clearly demonstrates they are already charging for recycling waste, but have simply not made it known.

There are 6 incinerators (often referred to by the friendly name Thermal Plants) planned around the country, with a particularly large one to be located in the heart of Dublin in Ringsend.

I think the plan is quite clear. Charges will be introduced for recycling. Recycling rates will then drop, because people won't see the point or want to pay. There will be a waste crisis. The government/corporate media induced hysteria which will leave out any discussion of the effects of charging for recycling or the blatant lack of a levy on excessive packaging, will steer public opinion to accept something that they don't want, namely an incinerator, which will of course burn flammable waste, which of course would be things like paper, cardboard, wood and plastic -most of which can be recycled!

by Seer Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:27

The councils in the Dublin area are considering charging people to enter the bring centres.

by seedot Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:12

It's interesting to hear about the increase in recycling but I'd have a few questions:

How do people without transport manage the 10 miles journey? Maybe this is not as much an issue in Donegal since car ownership is probably higher but I'm sure there are some without cars.

What times are the recycling facilities open? Are they open out of hours?

Do you have bottle banks as well as the two centres? What about paper waste?

When you put the bin out once a month, what is in it and what state is it in? Things like meat and cooked food would I assume go into the bin and then be left for a month. How bad does it smell? How far do you have to have it from the house? Any problems with flies etc. (a lot of which have a 14 day incubation cycle which is the reason for weekly collections).

I'm assuming even in the towns green waste (from gardens etc.) is not a problem - is there any communal composting or is it all in individual households gardens?


How is the cost of the recycling facilities covered by the council? Is there a commitment to keeping it free?

by Inishowen Reader Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:35

It now costs €9 to put out your wheelie bin in Inishowen (collected by private outfit called Logan Waste), to put out a single black bag is €4.50.
So how have the people of Inishowen responded? By paying €459 per year for bin collection? Not likely.

There are now two bring centres on the peninsula and while they are only open a few days a week they are very busy any time i go down there, as they are free to anyone who wants to bring in household waste, pre sorted. These two centres are located in Buncrana and Carndonagh which are both over 10 miles from my house but do i hear my neighbours and friends crying about it? NO.

Only by making bin collection so ridiculously expensive have Donegal Co Co got it through to people that recycling is the way to go. I know this from personal experience. Now instead of every week we only put out a bin once a month, and we visit the recycling centre every fortnight - most of my neighbours and friends are doing the same.

Some posters on Indymedia seem to think that refuse collection should be free to the people but the experience here in Donegal shows that the best way to get people behaving responsibly towards their own rubbish and waste is to make the alternatives to recycling very expensive and provide recycling centres free of charge.

Sure, i'd love if we had one in every village and parish, but most people are happy enough to combine a shopping trip they would have to do anyway, with a trip to the recycling centre on a saturday morning.

So let the councils charge away for bin collection, campaign instead for recycling centres.

P.S. The system operating here means you buy bin tags in a local shop and then stick them on the bin when you put it out for collection, this should be the system in Dublin too, rather than a fixed charge.

by C sna C Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:16

I'll save you some of your incredibly valuable time and do it for you as I can predict your FF votin', bin-tax lovin', self-praising cant already i.e;

"I represent and real people"... "Unlike everybody here I Iive in the real world.." "Lacey Delivers" "I'm super, you're all shit" etc etc etc

by Dermot Lacey Wed Apr 06, 2005 20:29

So I will answer all the usual tripe posted under this general heading in one go at a later stage.

But no...............I' ll reply later

by Terry Wed Apr 06, 2005 17:47

It is imperative on people to alleviate their own charges by buying compost bins or at least making compost heaps and in addition recycling as much waste as possible.

It is also a duty of the council to provide as much recycling facilities as possible.

However, having said all this, perhaps now is the time that all the different groups should come to toegether and DEMAND that a levy be put on excessive packaging and a deposit system re-introduced for returning bottles and cans. We should also demand that as much plastic bottles as possible be phased out and replaced by a deposit-return system of glass bottles as it was long ago. I think this may have been achieved recently in either Denmark or Germany.

In the case of the excessive packaging levy, this was blocked by IBEC a number of years ago, but we should all come together to force it through.

The government and councils will of course do none of this and will in fact resist it strongly, because the continuation of the generation of waste is their agenda so as to pander to their friends, cronies and backers in private business who are planning an Incinerator in the Waterford area and 6 other ones around the country.

Waste, recycling, excessive packaging (or lack of) levies and incinerators are all linked.

by Auld Dubliner Wed Apr 06, 2005 17:42

Makes no odds to me. I have not used the wheelie bin since the start of the year, I have just been putting my rubbish in the local litter bins every two or three days.

by Siptu Member Wed Apr 06, 2005 17:40

cllr if I'm not mistaken, I seem to recall that you are a member of Siptu. Aren't you out of step with even their policy on the bin charges.

by Andy C Wed Apr 06, 2005 16:43

What you are saying Dermot is that the anti-bin tax campaign is responsible for the dimunition of local democracy.
Only when people exercising their democratic right to protest did so, did the Minister for PR Consultants act and put the power in the hands of city/county managers.
Is that your argument? If it is, even for you Dermo this is a new low in absurdity.

Admit it Dermot, you love the fact that the power has been taken away. You can put in your glossy literature that you are not to blame for exhorbitant bin charges, the positioning of incinerators in built up areas etc,.

If you gave a damn about democracy, you would be on here and your beloved politics.ie informing us of the campaign to democratise the council that you are leading.
We won't hold our breath.

by Dermot Lacey Wed Apr 06, 2005 16:01

Those of you who complain about City and County Managers having the power to raise the charges should examine the record and see who contributed more to having this power removed from Councillors. At least when we did have the power we were able to moderate the charges. However I do not expect an immediate Mea Culpa but those of us who remained honest about the issue deserve it.


Your Comrade,

Dermot

by Amazed Wed Apr 06, 2005 14:55

"Refuse charges in several parts of the country could double in the next four years after it emerged that Waterford County Council officials are looking to increase single wheelie-bin lifts from €13 to €23."

And this is in Cullen's constituency. Stone the crows. No wonder FF have only one councillor in that city.