'Carlo Tried To Resist: This Is The Truth' : Giuliano Giuliani
Interview With Father of Carlo Giuliani Murdered In Genoa In July 2001
Giuliano Giuliani is a leading Italian Trade Unionist whose son Carlo was murdered by the Italian Police during the July 2001 protests in Genoa against the G8 Summit. Since Genoa, Giuliano and his wife Haidi have become stalwarts of the international anti-globalisation movement, speaking at countless events and protests as well as campaigning for justice for their son. He will speak at a public meeting organized by G8 Mobilise on Thursday 26th May in Dublin.
Four years on from Carlo's murder, do you feel any closer to achieving justice for him?
It is very difficult after waiting for four years to even think about achieving justice. But we are doing everything possible to ensure that the truth be acknowledged. Carlo was killed while he was trying to defend the others and himself from being shot at by the police. Carlo tried to resist: this is the truth. Along with this truth, we also want to find out the exact chain of command on those days, and we want someone to take political responsibility for Carlo's murder. This is absolutely necessary for our country, for democracy, and in particular for all the other young people who are looking for a better world.
How have the police behaved during the investigation?
Terribly, no investigation has really been carried out, not even into the most disgraceful and violent behaviour of the police. After he was hit by a bullet, Carlo was kicked while he was lying on the ground and then one policeman broke his forehead with a stone. This is the behaviour of Nazis. So was what they did at the Diaz school or at the Bolzaneto barracks or in the streets: torture, extremely violent beatings, both physical and mental. These facts are unworthy of a civilized society and they cannot remain unpunished. Instead they are trying to cover, to hide and to mix up everything. Some Judges are also not doing their jobs, because dismissing a case, like Carlo's murder, contributes to the truth being hidden.
Article/Interview in Full As Submitted on the Indymedia Ireland newswire
“To protest is a right, even more so when the goal is spreading justice and equality”
Giuliano Giuliani is a leading Italian Trade Unionist whose son Carlo was murdered by the Italian Police during the July 2001 protests in Genoa against the G8 Summit. Since Genoa, Giuliano and his wife Haidi have become stalwarts of the international anti-globalisation movement, speaking at countless events and protests as well as campaigning for justice for their son. He will speak at a public meeting organized by G8 Mobilise on Thursday 26th May in Dublin.
Four years on from Carlo's murder, do you feel any closer to achieving justice for him?
It is very difficult after waiting for four years to even think about achieving justice. But we are doing everything possible to ensure that the truth be acknowledged. Carlo was killed while he was trying to defend the others and himself from being shot at by the police. Carlo tried to resist: this is the truth. Along with this truth, we also want to find out the exact chain of command on those days, and we want someone to take political responsibility for Carlo's murder. This is absolutely necessary for our country, for democracy, and in particular for all the other young people who are looking for a better world.
How have the police behaved during the investigation?
Terribly, no investigation has really been carried out, not even into the most disgraceful and violent behaviour of the police. After he was hit by a bullet, Carlo was kicked while he was lying on the ground and then one policeman broke his forehead with a stone. This is the behaviour of Nazis. So was what they did at the Diaz school or at the Bolzaneto barracks or in the streets: torture, extremely violent beatings, both physical and mental. These facts are unworthy of a civilized society and they cannot remain unpunished. Instead they are trying to cover, to hide and to mix up everything. Some Judges are also not doing their jobs, because dismissing a case, like Carlo's murder, contributes to the truth being hidden.
What message do you have for those who are thinking of attending the protests against the G8 in Scotland this summer?
To protest is a right, even more so when the goal is spreading justice and equality. In Genoa this right was denied. The state colluded with anyone they could to deny this right. They colluded with various groups: criminals, fascists, hooligans as well as some dangerously naive people who had deluded themselves into thinking they could defeat capitalism by breaking some shop-windows or setting cars on fire. These acts, ironically, indirectly profit the insurance companies, a strong aspect of financial globalization! The strength of the movement will be in its principles and its goals. It also lies in the movement's ability not to rise to provocation, and to demand that the police do their job with coherence and dignity.
In terms of building the resistance to globalisation, both within Italy and internationally, how important do you think Genoa 2001 was?
Genoa showed the strength of a movement which is united by values: solidarity, a desire for justice, and an economy freed from the ultra-liberal dogma of the market. These values are capable of forging unity much more effectively than any one ideology. For this reason, Italy's right wing government, with the full support of their allies internationally, tried to stop it, using all the might of violence and repression. In Italy they went further than others might have, because the current right wing government totally lacks all moral values, and they saw in the movement, which was strong and vocal in its support for these values, a serious threat to its power.
Do you think Berlusconi will be defeated in the coming general election? If so what hopes do you have for the alternative broad left government?
Every local election result over the last two years has been a defeat for Berlusconi. He and his government are in crisis. Apart from the penalty points system and the smoking ban in public areas and on trains, not one of his recent initiatives has had any real support. The government has only been interested in solving the personal legal problems of Berlusconi and in increasing his personal economic power.
Italy is in the midst of a very serious economic crisis: we are in full recession. One family out of every four -especially in the South, but also in some areas of the North- cannot make it until the end of the month. In the last week of every month even milk sales drop! Millions of workers' contracts are not being renewed, and the government is doing nothing other than making promises to reduce taxation, which will disproportionately favour the rich. Even the employers' organizations and those trade unions involved in national agreements with the government are becoming very critical. Unions are organizing a general strike. All the conditions are there for Berlusconi to be defeated and for the biggest embarrassment of our recent history to be removed from Italy.
This is a goal that is shared by the whole centre-left spectrum, which on this point has found a strong unity. But to rule properly in the interest of the country we need a coherent programme, completely alternative to the one of the right. This programme still does not exist, and this delay is worrying.
What role do you think radical political parties can have in the social movements?
This is complicated. The so-called radical coalition could win over 15% in the next general elections in Italy, thus potentially making up 1/3 of the opposition. The coalition is therefore crucial to the victory of the opposition, so it will influence government policy. The problem is that that the coalition is divided and fragmented into five different parties or groups. So there are leadership problems, problems of representation, and petty power struggles that sometimes affect the movement and can be the cause of crises that have nothing to do with the values of the movement.
We need to get back to a principled tradition with some real goals such as democracy, social rights and protection for all (especially the most vulnerable), access for all to basic goods, a rejection of ultra-liberalism and a submission of the market to the rights and dignity of the people.
Giuliano will be speaking in the ATGWU hall at 7.30 pm at a meeting organised by G8 Mobilise Ireland. www.freewebs.com/mobiliseireland. G8 Mobilise is supported by The Green Party, Sinn Fein, the SWP, SP, Labour Youth, Irish Anti War Movement and others. For details of transport to the G8 call 0878289243 or e-mail mobiliseireland@hotmail.com
I interviewed him (helped by a translator) last week.
The interview is copy left and can be reproduced freely by any not for profit activist organisation
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Wednesday May 25, 2005 01:21
by Dave Lordan - SWP
dlordan at hotmail dot com
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Jump To Comment: 25 24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1The policemen inside the van were under attack from a violent mob. The policeman who shot Carlo believed his life was in danger. They felt that had they not used lethal force they would have been killed themselves - they escaped being burned alive in the van by shooting their way out - Carlo was identified as a ring leader and as he approached the vanb with a red canister in his hands - to the layman it might be a fire extinguisher or an inflammable propane canister - but the policeman didnt want to wait and find out - he reacted instinctively and opened fire killing Carlo with a single headshot.
The policeman I believe was punished severely for his actions - he behaved recklessly but I think it can be explained by the heat of a very dangerous situation - at lot of people including many police officers and a lot of private property had been damaged during the serious disturbances.
But it was not murder.
Carlo by using violence invited a violent backlash.
He should have taken account of the risks his actions created for his own life and the lives of others.
The moral to this tragedy - street violence cannot be a substitute for negotiated democratic politics.
Just as nations should hesitate before using violence for political ends e.g. the rush to war in Iraq - so too do individuals when standing up to authority.
Berlusconi was removed from power this year not by violent street politics but by the ordinary people of Italy who used the ballot box.
Berlusconi's control of the Italian media gives the lie to the idea that people are capable of being brainwashed and fooled.
Class war has issued a statement about make poverty history campaign
see classwaruk.org
c/f
On September 10th, as the Campesino march reached the barricade, Lee climbed upon the fence separating the protesters and the WTO, seven kilometers from the Convention Centre and there, at a point called Kilometer Zero, committed suicide by plunging a knife into his heart. Everything changed, changed utterly, and suddenly the gravity of what the protests were all about became stark. So too the business behind the fence. Before falling, Lee held up a placard - WTO Kills Farmers, and led the chant, Down Down WTO.
Long report at
He didnt set fire to himself, he stabbed himself in the heart.
The illustration first appeared at:-
"our faces our masks their faces their masks"
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=61467
and was linked via comments and what is sometimes called the retro-chronology of cyber-architecture to this comment
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=61433&condense_comments=false#comment48517
which is itself a file of comments and links in italian indymedia on conditions on the ground in October 2003.
Whenever two young men of diametrically opposed cultural and social traditions and socio-economic and indentity backgrounds (such as Mario Placanica and Carlo Guilliani) are in armed conflict, the balance will always be tipped in favour of the young man with the more lethal weapon.
It is the responsibility of a democratic state, if it is to be democratic, to ensure that those employees whose task it is to maintain an arbitrary order, and the safety of citizens and property, only use their lethal weapons when there is no other resort.
Carlo could not leave the square, no-one except the police officers could, Mario was a police officer.
You now have (if you are interested) many links which will bring you through the labyrinth of conflict between the two sides of Italian society, which at its most extreme sees scant regard for the lives of others, and the right to life of others. One of the reasons why Italy is described as "the sick man".
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=62831&condense_comments=false#comment108782
Kyoung Hae Lee died Cancún 2003. He set fire to himself in an act of protest against neo-liberal globalisation. His was not the first death nor the last.
The purpose of protesting is to let your voice be heard when your 'democratic' governments have taken to ignoring you. There is always a risk that you will be harmed, no matter what you do. There is a risk of traffic accidents, getting shot in a robbery, even getting hit by lightening. But who chooses to stay indoors rather than face these risks?
If you feel that the world can be better than it is, but your government have told you to 'fuck off', what other choice have you but to protest? You cannot sit there, seething away. You HAVE to do SOMETHING.
Nothing will change if we just sit here.
The question you have to ask is not 'why am I going?' but 'why am I not going?' That's were your real reasons lie.
"Maybe. If visited from the future though and offered death or paralysis while taking part in an anti-globalisation protest versus staying at home, I am sure which one I'd pick (sorry, but I dont want to die for "anarchy" or any other political ideology quite yet)."
Professor Badman simply has to point out that this is a silly argument. If you were to follow this logic, nobody would ever cross a road - after all every single victim of cars would presumably choose not to have crossed the road in retrospect. For people going to a summit protest, at least those who don't have time machines or crystal balls, the relevant statistical questions to ask oneself are more like the following:
In Genoa 1/300000 got killed - is this worth the risk?
Maybe 1/10000 of those who attempted to disrupt the summit got killed - is this worth the risk?
Maybe 1/5000 got injured or arrested - is this worth the risk?
I think that most people are willing to face this sort of risk for something that they believe in. Of course, the trouble with statistics and chaotic universes are that you could be that one person. But you could also get knocked down by a bus tomorrow.
It's OK no one can take the hump with you if you don't give us a clue who you are.
Otherwise the questions you ask are well worth asking but I think its also important to remember that not everyone has already been to a summit protest - it is not groundhog day for everyone. For a lot of the Dissent people if you exclude Mayday last year this will be their first time. For others we may be aware of the problems you outline but at the same time judge the benefits to be 'worth it'. Some specific answers
- why are we going?
To protest against capitalism and to join with other people from all over Europe (and beyond) in doing so. I get more out of the meeting people then I do out of the actual protests - this was even true of Prague
- what is the point in travelling several hundred miles?
Above - anyway there is no big difficulty in 'travelling several hundred miles.
- how does this relate to struggles back home?
On the obvious level because much of what we fight against locally originates in the G8 and other global bodies. If we are to do more than hop from one local fight to another it is useful to understand this.
On another level though so what if there was no connection at all with local struggles. Apatheid had little relevancy to local struggles in Ireland. The US war against Nicargua had little relevancy to local struggles. But it was good that people were still willing to fight on these issues. Localism has become a bit of a mantra among sections of the left and IMHO their politics have suffered as a result - it is good to remember that exploitation and resistance does not end at the Irish border.
So although there is a strong relationship it wouldn't worry me that much if there wasn't. I am however interested in seeing those who travel to such protests also doing stuff locally but in general this is pushing at an open door.
- are we just cementing the activist ghetto?
We do need to fight against this by making sure we are also making a real effort to tell people why we are going and encouraging people from outside the ghetto to come along.
- isnt protesting just negative?
The urge to destroy is also a constructive urge.
Actually it doesn't make much sense to complain about it just being negative and also to complain about the positive activities like arranging the barrio.
- what will my being there achieve?
You should come back feeling inspired and with more energy for getting stuck in locally - I always do. You will probably also have made a number of useful contacts elsewhere and heard useful stories about how other people are struggling. You may have bonded quite a bit with those you travelled with - this can also be very useful when trying to get stuff done at home.
- how will this protest work towards achieving any aims?
See above
- am i really prepared to deal with being arrested and/or imprisoned?
The point of collective mass actions like this is that the nature of this question changed from 'am I willing to take a 1 in 24 risk of getting arrested' to 'am I willing to take a 1 in 2,000 risk of getting arrested'. Or in other words this is a very real lesson in the importance of collective struggle over individual heroism.
- am i really willing to get hurt for my beliefs?
See above.
I agree that it is very important that people going over have some idea of just what might happen. Dissent has already done a bit of preparation around this (we had a medic training weekend for instance) but we will also be showing videos and arranging first hand accounts from people who have been to previous summits which we hope everyone will attend.
I'd be in agreement with weeler somewhat, I think its a bit odd that the swp are hosting this and also putting on stuff like Surplus. It seems that as long as there is distance and/or history with a violent event then its ok to support it - e.g. the intifada, carlo's actions - but when it comes to direct action or fighting against cops now and here - e.g. marching to farmleigh or taking down the shannon fence - its dangerous or extremist (which it is, but never mind :-) and its better to back away from it. But putting on talks about far away stuff is fine, because it gives us the image of hardcore revolutionaries.
However, as things pick up coming towards the G8 (which to be honest I'm already sick and tired of reading about on this site, its as if nothing else was happening) there's a few thoughts swirling about my head about summit protests, so what better place than Indymedia to dump them out for the public to read.
There's the usual words being thrown around in all the releases and statements saying the protests will show "solidarity", "resistance", "opposition" and how this amazing campsite village will be a working model of a perfect society, blah blah etc etc. There's no mention of the other aspects of summit protests, which always happen - fear, paranoia, panic, hurt, arguments/disputes, violence, arrest, and yeah - maybe even death. I think there's a certain degree of honesty missing about what going to a G8 summit entails in all the literature. Yeah, you'll meet nice people, and you might learn something about yourself, but there is a chance that you could get hurt. This is just an honest reflection on what has happened before. I dont know if people ask themselves real questions about getting involved. Did the thought ever enter Martin Shaw's head that they might actually cut the rope? (IMHO that was one of the most incredibly badly thought-out direct actions of all time) Maybe. Did Carlo Giuliani think he was going to be shot? Maybe. If visited from the future though and offered death or paralysis while taking part in an anti-globalisation protest versus staying at home, I am sure which one I'd pick (sorry, but I dont want to die for "anarchy" or any other political ideology quite yet).
There's even no "meta-debate" about the value of summit protests happening. There was a good article by someone else up on the wire a few months back asking what the point was in going, I cant find it at the moment - but it was basically asking what the point of continuing an old tactic is? Nobody seems to be asking-
- why are we going?
- what is the point in travelling several hundred miles?
- how does this relate to struggles back home?
- are we just cementing the activist ghetto?
- isnt protesting just negative?
- what will my being there achieve?
- how will this protest work towards achieving any aims?
- am i really prepared to deal with being arrested and/or imprisoned?
- am i really willing to get hurt for my beliefs?
Regardless of that anyway, its almost like watching a bad re-run, I'm getting this deja vu sense of Scotland, or maybe its presque vu instead. Can I predict the future? No - but all the ingredients are there. Differing groups squabbling in the run up, plus massive police and media scare tactics. Anarchists saying they're not violent. NGO's worried about them. During protests people get battered after throwing rocks and then end up putting the blame at the feet of the cops. People get arrested, imprisoned. Campsite gets raided with mass arrests on grounds of terrorist threat. And so on.
The level of this kind of debate about whether summit protests are worthy is non existent. Here's an example of the debate about the G8 on a UK site, which has descended rapidly into a "fuck you pig scum we're going to burn your vans out with Molotovs" versus a "you're all going to be in a campsite miles from nowhere and you're not going to get within pissing distance of Gleneagles". Someone tried to raise a serious debate about media strategy which provoked fuck all response.
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=116306
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=116219
(you might need a login to view the posts on the site)
Even Carlo Giuliani's death, I cant help but think there's a certain amount of fetishism going on with it in left circles because he died in glorious battle with the cops. Nobody seems to know or give a fuck about Lee Kyang Hae (look it up if you have to), but I think his death was much sadder and more tragic, and that happened at a western summit mobilisation as well.
Anyway, I have to wrap this up because this PC is being shut down soon, I have more to type but I dont know if I'm bothered. Lots of people will go, come home, the end. Someone said on some other thread that he hopes some libertarian network will grow in Ireland out of the Dissent! thing. If it didnt happen with 4,000+ people on the Mayday march last year then I dont think a couple of hundred people going to Scotland will result in it either.
Maybe Indymedia could have a separate wire or space for G8 related posts, so we dont have to constantly read about it every day with "updates" and the like?
Hmmm... I better shut up and split. I'm in a bad mood today, dont want to make any more enemies than are already out there.
It was Harpo was the dumb one.
I remeber seeing BBC news footage of Berlusconi visiting the troops in Iraq and being greeted with the old Fascist salute (raised hand and war cry). It doesn't surprise me that Italian soldiers had Fascist banners in their barracks. From what I can tell this is typical of police and soldiers everywhere. A Catholic recruit to the RUC told of how the policeman with the locker next to his had a poster of Johnny Adair inside it. The links between state forces and right-wing paramilitaries is not just an Italian phenomena:
http://www.relativesforjustice.com/collusion/collusion.htm
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/1922/
in a case of killing, to ascertain was it premeditated or incidental, and the beliefs of the killed are thought relevant, then some conjectures as to how commonplace those beliefs are might be worthwhile?
So, again and again the photo of the death. like snuff.
again and again the photos of the riot in the square where contrary to good police practise the protesters had been herded into confrontation.
again and again, the "record of insulting carabinieri"
In 2003, on the 11th of November, some time after Carlo's death, a barracks at Nassiriya in Iraq was bombed, it was at the point the worst incident for the Italian security forces during their occupation.
"18 Italians were killed: 12 Carabinieri paramilitary police, four soldiers, a civilian working at the base and a documentary filmmaker. A spokesman for the U.S.-led coalition said at least eight Iraqis also died. The bomber - whose nationality was not known - also died.
The blast wounded 79 people, 20 of them Italians, hospital sources and Italian officials said.
Italians were stunned by their nation's single worst military loss since World War II and its first in the Iraq campaign. At Rome's tomb of the unknown soldier, the green-white-and-red flag rippled at half-staff, and parliament held a minute of silence.
Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi pledged that Italy's mission in Iraq would not be derailed. Opposition leaders who opposed the deployment to postwar Iraq called on the government to withdraw the contingent."
NOW to understand the emotive differences in Italian society between those of the "left" and those of the "right", or those of the "fascist" tradition and those of the "communist" tradition, to understand the background to social polarisation and confrontation which brought Mario Placanica and Carlo Guiliani together in the square, one ought look at the social and cultural background and belief patterns of the Carabinieri.
After the barracks had been bombed, it emerged that the men sent by Berlusconi to Iraq to fight for liberty had slept under a Republic of Lago flag, that flag is illegal, it is the flag of the fascist regime which saw out WW2 loyal to Mussolini and Hitler.
The photo was first published on indymedia here-
http://italy.indymedia.org/news/2003/11/433452.php
It is my consistently expressed belief that Europe is post-fascistic, that is why I oppose the current EU constitution which doesn't safeguard our futures against fascistic social organisation models. Post-fascism coupled with the best marketting practises of security corporations has led to police forces which are increasingly paramilitary and recruit primarily amongst those young men and women who hold fascistic notions of state and order. These concerns are common to many who have properly considered the evidence on the Mario Placanica and Carlo Guiliani case and are considering the nature of and direction of modern Italian society.
"Let us remember them as they were - not as we would wish they were"
I fully agree with detective above, carlo didn't die while fighting for a broad left coalition to challenge burlusconi.
As for "interested", when you resort to petty insults and stereotyping do you really expect anyone to take you seriously?
Plenty of people have been murdered without charges ever being brought against the police.
"It is not too much to hope that the next time his friends stoop to pick up a cobblestone, they will remember a lesson learned when plows first broke the Mesopotamian earth: You reap what you sow."
Time Magazine - after the death of Carlo
Carlo was a squatter and part of a group called beast punks. He had a conviction for insulting the police.
Is it really good to his memory to whitewash him? Did he not have his own ideas? Where are these represented here?
Carlo one hour before his death
Crowd attacks van
About to be shot - gun in upper right
The scene afterwards
is what the man said. & people come on the comments and have a debate about "murder".
= unlawful killing which is premeditated.
As was written above the cases are sub-judice.
The police officer who shot Carlo in the chest at close range was dismissed from the police force since the criminal trial of 25 protesters began, when that trial winds up, the trial of police officers and officials in the chain of command will start. When that ends, the civil cases will begin.
Now unless you've read the material
http://italy.indymedia.org/features/genova/
or were there (in which case your submissions ought have been left with the legal teams)
http://italy.indymedia.org/news/2004/06/576371.php
there is really little point in leaving "quipette" comments, and your efforts would probably be just as appreciated closer to home, on a Bloody Sunday thread of which we have many.
Personally having examined video footage and spoken to experienced and professional witnesses who were there, I have formed an opinion. But the case is sub-judice, & so my opinion is sub rosa.
For their part the commercial media in Italy last referred to the case as "the killing" (right wing) and "the murder" (left wing) of Carlo at the beginning of May and the current round of court proceedings.
Like the real Zeppo Marx maybe you should remain dumb if you have nothing to add to a real debate
Dear Interested,
"Stop hiding in the net and making false and spurious allegations."
Considering that the poster gives his real name, email address and it's quite clear that this posting comes from the SWP paper, I'm wondering if you have a definition of "hiding in the net" that I'm not aware of???
On the other hand I don't seem to recall a spate of people calling their kids "Interested" a few years back.
How is it that you lot cant accept an alternative point of view?
As I said no charges equals no murder
as regards the hardcore violent activists you know damn well that there is a small core of these people who do nothing but try and start trouble, you ask me to say who they are and all you say is it was the police
grow and get a life, its the usual rich little kids here pissing on about things but yet in 10 years I bet you are wearing a suit and saying how good the police are
go back to mummy and daddy and learn about life
in life innocent until proven guilty
no charges no murder
calling it murder dosnt make it so and you are only trying to stir up emotions so p..s off back to D4
the state must agree somebody has been killed before they are truly dead?
Man, there's a lot of laggards kipping off in graves who ought to be out earning their keeps.
there have been a number of cases involving police involved in the genova protests as well as the preceeding protests in naples. Much of the italian judicary (hardly violent anarchists) are of the opinion the police in both situations have to answer.
"remember these socalled protests are run by hardcore violent activists."
who are they then.. the police?
You've been watching too much sky news.
Just beacuse his family feels it was murder dosnt actaully make it murder though, we cant go around accusing people of murder because we feel it was murder, that is just murderously stupid.
Bo cgarges no murder
Tragic yes, criminal murder certainly not
remember these socalled protests are run by hardcore violent activists.
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=69680
http://italy.indymedia.org/news/2005/05/795227.php
& as such the process having taken a long time will see charges made eventually, and prosecutions through either criminal or civil law.
There are many incidents to consider and the Italians are considering them, slowly, thats their way.
its all updated here, in central and right hand column.
I think its pretty certain (no matter the outcome of the inquiries) that for Carlo's father and family it was murder.
http://italy.indymedia.org/features/genova/
Its a bit much to say he was murdered?
Has anyone been charged for murder
Stop hiding in the net and making spurious and false allegations,
its sad he died but it wasnt murder