Big Brother WILL Be Watching You
Information on ASBOs and the Criminal Justice Bill
On Saturday 11th June a Parade will take place in Dublin to protest the imminent introduction of a form of anti-social behavior order to Ireland. Rory Hearne who is involved in the campaign against the introduction of ASBOs here submitted this guide to what is at issue to Indymedia Ireland.
The controversial Anti-Social Behaviour Orders (ASBOs) and other amendments to the Criminal Justice Bill 2004 are due to go to the Cabinet for approval on June 7th and then through the Dail pretty soon afterwards.
The Irish Council for Civil Liberties (ICCL) recently highlighted why we should be concerned: “The ICCL is concerned that in the Criminal Justice Bill 2004, that there is a strong tendency to see solutions to crime in terms of increase of policing powers, creation of new offences…without the necessary evaluation of how powers are used…it is all too easy to advance “quick-fix” populist answers to crime, which lack any evidence base as to their effectiveness and in fact in time will contribute to an unjust system.”
ASBOs if introduced here could see a situation whereby normal activity becomes criminalised. Just look at some examples of ASBOS in Britain: A 13 year old was banned from using the word ‘grass’ , a 16 year old was banned from showing his tattoos, a profoundly deaf girl was served an order for spitting in public, an 87 year old was forbidden from being sarcastic to his neighbours, a football fan was banned from playing ball games in the street, a 17 year old was ordered not to enter or leave his home except by a back alley, a 21 year old was banned from wearing a woolly hat, baseball cap or hooded top, and an 18 year old was ordered not to meet with three or more other youths. He was later arrested for breaching this order because he entered a local youth club. (see www.nyci.ie)
There are several excellent programmes in Ireland which seek to deal with the underlying causes of anti-social behaviour but all are grossly underfunded and unable to achieve their potential. ASBOs, by seeking to punish and control such behaviour, will only increase the alienation of these young people and immerse them further into the criminal justice scene, for behaviour which in itself will not be criminal. It is a superficial response to a serious problem, a response which, although politically popular, is likely to make the problem worse, not better.
The Minister for Justice and the Government should tackle the root causes of Anti-social Behaviour and deal with non-criminal behaviour through non-criminalising methods. They should tackle instead the fact that communities have minimal or no play and recreational facilities for children. Forty six percent of local authorities don’t provide playgrounds. There are twice as many golf courses as playgrounds in Ireland. Ireland has one of the highest rates of child poverty in Ireland. Youth clubs are closing down because of lack of funding.
Other worrying aspects of the Criminal Justice Bill include:
1. Section 6 (1) which empowers members of the gardaí to seize anything he/she has reason to believe relates to the commission of an arrestable offence. This extension in powers, particularly its use “in public places”, could be open to abuse. For example the ICCL received several reports that in and around 1 May 2004, the Gardai were stopping individuals and confiscating items ranging from onions to spray paints for banners, and that persons were stopped and searched, sometimes repeatedly, by members of the Garda. The reports were that Garda officers either refused to name what power they were invoking. Such incidents clearly give rise to powers being used in a manner that amounts to a disproportionate interference in an individual’s liberty and property rights, and also have a direct impact on legitimate forms of freedom of _expression and assembly.
2. Section 8 amends section 4 of the Criminal Justice Act 1984 to provide for increased powers of detention for all arrestable offences from 12 hours to 24 hours.
3. Section 11(1) empowers the gardaí to photograph all persons arrested.
4. Section 29 provides that Gardaí will be entitled to issue an ‘on the spot’ fine for a Section 5 Public Order offence (disorderly conduct in a public place). This section allows Garda to be judge and jury without any safeguards for the accused provided.
These proposals if introduced would undermine the civil liberties of everyone, but particularly youth (and especially working class youth) and those who take part in public protest. It will require intense public mobilisation and protest to force the Minister for Justice to change his mind on this one. Please support this campaign. Send messages with your opposition to the Minister for Justice, the Taoiseach, the Tanaiste and Brian Lenihan Minister for Children.
For further info check out http://www.usi.ie, http://www.nyci.ie, http://www.hotpress.ie
Supported by USI, USS, Hotpress, Labour Youth, Sinn Fein, Socialist Workers Party, Green Party, Connolly Youth and more.
An infringement on civil rights is an attack on all of us. Remember the words of Pastor Martin Niemöller, a survivor of Nazi concentration camp:
First They Came for the Jews
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Saturday June 11th Protest/Parade Details
national |
rights, freedoms and repression |
feature
Sunday June 05, 2005 15:53
by Rory H via imcer - USI
dep_president at usi dot ie
086 1523542
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Comments (68 of 68)
Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68Just look at the people who are opposed to them - the tenured Labour radicals of ireland's third level colleges, student activists, Indymedia, NYCI, Hot Press (does anyone give a f***), and the other usual suspects and apologists for the Slappa Kappa culture of Ireland's public housing and shopping malls.
I fully support ASBOs and more. IInvoking the words of Niemöller is unjustified and an insult to those really oppressed. Take these scumbags and their hoodies off the streets now. Stop those who terrorize old people, women and children. Let's see how tough the tough guys really are. I'd like to see them forced to wear uniforms and do community work like in the US, where the programme has been a tremendous success...
Anti-Social Behaviour Orders: Social Policy and Human Rights
Date: 22 June, 2005
The question whether Irish law should introduce anti-social behaviour orders has provoked a huge debate.
On the one hand, it is said that there is a clear and social need to control anti-social behaviour which is causing severe disturbance and fear to residents, many of them elderly people On the other hand, it is contended that anti-social behaviour orders would turn more young people into criminals, damaging the effectiveness of other social and legal policies. Questions as to the consistency of ASBOs with the Constitution and European Convention on Human Rights have also given rise to a debate.
The speakers have particular expertise in law, criminology, penology and human rights. There will be an opportunity for questions and discussion.
The fee to attend the conference is 100 euros, however there is a specialreduced rate of 50 euros for NGOs and other interested organisations.
If you would like further information, don't hesitate to contact:
Catherine Finnegan
School of Law,
House 39, Trinity College, Dublin 2.
Telephone (01) 608 2367
Fax (01) 677 0449
http://www.tcd.ie/Law/Conference.html
PROGRAMME:
5:30 Registration
6:00 ASBOs: Criminology and Penological Aspects (Speaker: Ivana Bacik)6:20 ASBOs: Yet Another Pig in the Poke and Backward Step for Juvenile Justice (Speaker: Paul O'Mahony)
6:40 ASBOs and Children at Risk - Implications for Law and Practice (Speaker: Geoffrey Shannon)
7:00 Tea / Coffee Break
7:20 ASBOs: A Human Rights Challenge (Speaker: Ursula Kilkenny)
7:40 ASBOs: Issues of Principle and Policy (Speaker: Sarah Benson)
8:00 Anti-Social Behaviour Orders and the Constitution (Speaker: William Binchy)
8:20 Questions and Discussion
"I'd like to see them forced to wear uniforms and do community work like in the US" - An excellent idea. Make criminals repay society for the damage or injury they caused. Only problem with that is the damage it would cause to industry.
crooked cops filling holes in donegal in chain gangs
crooked cops filling holes in donegal in chain gangs - 2 cops Eeek, just 2. Will this be the battle cry instead of Mayday now?
BTW, I shed no tears for them, they deserve to be punished and those framed deserve justice. Wonder if the do-gooders will fight in the bent coppers corner?
the issue is clouded. the root causes of the increase
of anti social behaviour need to be addressed......
the more laws, the more lawbreakers....
I can just see this one coming . Lets put it this way , I dont use drugs , never have . Even when I was at college I was a stick in the mud and said no and just stuck to the drink instead ..
But Ive been searched by Guards in the street for drugs over 30 times in the last 8 years . I wasnt intoxicated , rude or threatening . I wasnt in possession of drugs . I have no crininal convictions and have never been before a court for anything , ever . But I was in possession of a political opinion the British and Irish state disliked . So the 26 county police stop me in the street claiming they believe I have drugs on my person and search me . Thats an abuse of power and an abuse of process . Thankfully I dont live in the 26 counties so it only happens every now and again .
At least when the Brits and RUC stopped and searched you they tell you its because youre a no good fenian bastard and dont spout bollocks about drugs .
All these quick fix laws which are slavishly copied from the British will ultimately end up being used against the wider population , those who for whatever reason have views the state would like to see crushed . Such as people with old fashioned ideas like ... its not nice to be dropping bombs on arab kiddies and notions about Irish neutrality and such like . And dont forget Irish special branch abused their power to intimidate the families of the Dublin Monaghan massacre at one time as well . An unaccountable police force with even more powers that no one can question . The free state just gets more like the land of the free every day .
Barry,
How do the Gardai ever know if someone is carrying drugs? Do drug dealers advertise where you live? You give yourself far too much credit my friend if you think your comments on this site have you on some imaginary 'hit list' as an IRA supporter. I also find it strange that you feel you are such an authority on a police force in a country you apparantly dont live in.
Self,
By your logic we should just scrap the whole justice system and pat criminals on the head and encourage them.
I agree with a lot of what Barry had to say.
I've never had any run-ins with the gardai and I'm completely Law obiding to the best of my knowledge. But I am very opposed to giving gardai(or government in general) more power to destroy our basic civil rights with what sounds to me like "secret laws". It amazes me how people will rally behind the very things that will enslave them(further). We've already seen too many scandals (both low level and high level) involving the gardai or the government (and those are just the ones we find out about!!), these are the people who need to be watched. There is an undenyable corruption in the system, Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
My reasons for distrusting the use of such a Seemingly justified bill, is my research and subsoquent revelations In relation to world politics and Historical facts. I'm glad I woke up to the truth but I'm having a hard time trying to wake up "Sheeple", with thier "beliefs". It takes real intelligence and scepticism to see through this intricate, purposely constructed web of lies. BB is already here, but not as we know it
I hope you enjoy the civil rights that you wont give up because I know the criminals dealing drugs at the local school will.
the first people they should be used on is all of those in dept of justice and garda hq who turned an ongoing and longterm blind eye to harrassment, and intimidation of up to 40 people in donegal.
What would the conditions be?
Stay away from telephones / fertilizer / pubs and innocent civilians?
Lets all give up our civil rights because there are drug dealers in the world. That's borderline fascist thinking. You aren't working for big swinging mickey are you? Oh that's right - of course you are.
Getting any extra moolah for being the 'policeman is a (friendly) person in your neighbourhood' on indymedia?
I object to the last comment as being "irrelivent" hearsay. There is no hard evidence that Al gets any form of compensation pecuniary or otherwise for his efforts in contributing to indymedia. This is mere speculation which would never stand up in court - not even in Donegal.
He might just be killing time or relieving boredom.
Al, making more laws against your people is a system of control....Heres an idea, make those "bad people" dealing out drugs at the local level redundant, legalise drugs for even one year. This wil destroy the black market the government has created.(Just look at Prohibition). I assure you, you will find the REAL criminals that are profiting from this black market pop up like gophers. Corporations, banks and government will have some real big questions to answer in trying to explain a huge loss in money (i.e laundered drug money). This is the root of the problem, it's not hard to see why the drugs that cause the most deaths today are the ones we are free to indulge ourselves in (nicotine and alchohol).
You admitted you were actually present at the garden of remembrance in Dublin on Easter sunday . I was searched by a member of garda special branch in front of you . He quoted that drugs bollocks at me for his reason to search , and because he lied I gave him a false name and ID in return .
What is the likelihood I was at a 32csm easter commemoration in order to sell narcotics to Fianna Eireann members ,ex hungerstrikers and veteran republicans who were present on the Brookeborough raid with sean south ? seriously now ?
did the guards reckon i was going to shoot up some smack at the graves in Arbour hill ?
jesus christ wise up man . you usually sound quite intelligent .
By the way I dont live in a different country from you , I live in Ireland . As regards knowledge of the free state I have lived in Dublin for a number of years , I live right on the border and socialise , work and study in the free state . Most of my family live in and originate from south of the border . Im very well aware of garda procedure , especially having attended the neverending farces in the special criminal court with its 100% conviction rate against republicans . Never wrong , no court in the world has a conviction rate like that . And you want more powers with no accountability to citizens ?
By saying that Barry lives in another country Al is just showing his partitionist mentality. Hardly surprising since he is a self-confessed member of a police force which provided the british intelligence service with so much information, officially and unofficially.
I do however doubt Barry's assertion of a conviction rate of 100% in the "special criminal court". It is probably closer to 99%.
If I did not know them better I would find it a bit odd, now that the "Troubles" are over (or at least in a state of suspended animation) that the government are introducing yet more repressive legislation.
I will answer one at a time.
Absolutely,
As per usual someone with nothing relivent to say used the flavour of the month and blows it out of proportion. Exactly how would ASBO's be used in regards to Donegal? Your attempts to insult me fall on deaf ears as my stance on Donegal is well known.
Alwatch,
Does your name mean you have nothing to contribute and use this site to follow me? I suggest you call yourself Betty and be done with it. If I was being paid to post here I believe I would be doing it more often and blindly fighting every comment made against the Gardai and/or government. I am probable one of the few people here who never posts while working. but again another post that has nothing to do with the subject and just proves your intelligence or lack of.
Now to the people that have actual opinions on the subject...
Justo,
I will attempt to post seriously despite how laughable your suggestion was. Are you suggesting that there should be no laws? By legalising drugs the world would be a better place? Drugs are illegal, this is not a foolish notion but based on the harm that they cause to people. Alcohol and tobacco cause more deaths because they are used far more often. Are you suggesting that deaths would lower all round if cocaine and heroin were legal? Yes, I see your point, more choice; "will I go to the pub and have a pint? No because I have to go outside for a smoke. What then" I know, I will head down to the local opium den for a bit of craic with the lads" Oh yes what a good idea you put forward.
The one thing I will say in defence of your idea is that hash should be legalised therefore taking a minor drug out of the dealers hands.
Barry,
I now doubt your honesty because there was no special branch inside the cemetary. There was more IRA muscle there than Gardai and we were all in uniform. THere detectives outside OK but not inside. But regardless of that, You made the following statements, please explain which is true and which is a lie; "Thankfully I dont live in the 26 counties so it only happens every now and again ." (by Barry Saturday, Jun 4 2005, 9:02pm) and "I have lived in Dublin for a number of years , I live right on the border and socialise , work and study in the free state" (by Barry Sunday, Jun 5 2005, 7:31pm). Which is it?
As far as your claims towards the Special criminal court are concerned, why and how can you spend so much time in a Dublin court when you have work/stody/social engagements near the border? In fact, what is your arguement against this court? the lack of a jury? Is it so hard to believe that jury intimidation would take place when it is well known within both my own and your circles that the IRA intimidate witnesses and have detailed information on Gardai. While I would not usually use hearsay evidence in a debate I am pretty sure that even you will admit my name, my address and car registration have been recorded.
Overall Barry I am beginning to wonder just how close and/or active with RIRA you are. As a Garda I want justice to be served and belive "Rather a thousand guilty men go free than one innocent man convicted" However as a citizen of the state I do not consider those involved in Omagh and such to be a part of the human race.
That's how it starts. Declare that your opponent is not a member of the human race. You can then go on to strip them of all their legal rights. And before long you have the concentration camps...
...and the gas chambers.
Your attitudes will change to ABSO's when you become victims of these thugs and when ye grow up an have families and have the fears for their safety that parents do. Your attitudes will change when you become elderly and the youth 70 years your junior is the cause of you not being able to close your eyes out of fear at night because hes sitting out side on a wall with 10 of his mates and you dont know wheather hes going to come in your door or window. We need more Gardai, they need to be given the publics support and less of the doo gooder shite that is on this bullshit web site. I have a funny feeling that the people who will abuse ABSO's and look for them to be used in silly cases will be the snotty Doo Gooders who are always first to CRY Foul and point the finger. Their contribution to society is purely negitive and reflects what they truely are - wasters
My guess is that 'Pete' and 'Al' are one and the same. Al uses other names when he wants to be abusive.
OK let me ask a question: Its 1939, you meet a man named Hitler, you know whats going to happen. Do you kill him?
Let me put it another way, its 15th August 1998, its a beautiful day, kids are out shopping with their parents. Your in Omagh, what do you do?
As a parent I would both die and kill to protect my child. Any decent parent would. As a Garda I would die to save an innocent life. As a person I would do the same. Or should I allow evil men to prey on and hurt those we love?
Now, obviously this is a little extreme considering we are discussing ASBO's but I am merely pointing out where I stand. There are vulnerable people in our communities who are frightened by thugs on a daily basis. I will always side with the victim over their attacker and if that means restricting the attacker then so be it. Personally I am willing to lose certain rights in order to protect society. If that means giving a DNA sample then so be it, its a justified sacrafice.
However if you think that allowing criminals to hurt innocent people is justified to protect one of your civil liberties (That you will still have) then shame on you not me.
BTW, I stand by my comment, the Omagh bombers are not members of the human race anymore than Hitler was. Funny how I am being likened to a Nazi when Im the one fighting against such people instead of protecting them.
"If I was being paid to post here I believe I would be doing it more often and blindly fighting every comment made against the Gardai and/or government"
That seems to me an exact description of what you are at around here my good al. You are also probably the most prolific commenter on the site for the last month too.
Dear god,
This coming from a person that calls themself 'Alwatch'. Come on Betty, why not use the one name. Now, I suggest you look up the definition of 'stalker' and come back when you actually have something to say about the subject.
BTW, Im not your 'dear old' anything, we are not friends or anything like it. Now please stop looking through my garbage and for gods sake get yourself some help before I resort to a retraining order.
I'm just watching anonymous comments on a thread on the internet and speculating - this is not the same as stalking
I am not betty either and never responded to your comments before
I'm just a bit tired of threads being derailed by your boring repetitive 'right wing common sense 101' extracts
I strongly believe you are a convenient work of fiction
Yet you are exclusively answering and following me regardless of the topic. You named yourself after me, whats that say?
Now, which one of us has posted on the thread about the topic and which one hasnt? Hmmmm?
Feel free to reply but unless you actually speak about the topic I will ignore your chidish antics from here on in.
14% of comments in last 100 comments posted by al on a site that has thousands of readers a day
all on the following threads
Garda Shoot to Kill
Mcdowell does it again
Big Brother (asbos)
How random!
He/She/It is what is known as a flak generator ladies and gentlemen.
DOJ or Garda Central?
"Get these mutts away from me
You know I don't find this stuff amusing anymore "
Began at the gates of the garden of rembrance and went down Oconnell st to the gpo. Along with a number of others i was searched under the drugs act outside the garden of rembrance just prior to the easter commemoration as it was forming up , not inside Arbour hill afterwards . Im being completely honest .
what are you talking about lies for ? I lived in Dublin for a number of years ? yes , whats the problem .
I now live just on the northern side of the border ( you reckon in another country ?)
I socialise from time to time as well as study part time south of the border ? yes
I dont live in the 26 cos but on over 30 occasions in the last number of years ive been stopped and searched for drugs in the 26 cos , but never in the north , not once .
at the present time i have little time to be in the SCC but as someone who works week in week out for a prisoners charity I attended the conveyor belt show trials in the SCC as an observer . I even witnessed the case of an elderly man from Kildare sentenced for IRA membership . The branch claimed this elderly man was an IRA member . Their proof was a "grenade component" they found on his property . It was a broken leg of a wooden chair lying in his back fucking garden !!! they said it could be made into a handle for a stick grenade and sent him down for 5 years !!!
But thats all the evidence they need . The uncorroborated word of a senior guard , his opinion can get you sent to jail . Or more precisely your own political opinions can get you sent to jail .
And now that I have questioned this youre basically accusing me of being a RIRA member ? and im sure if your rank is high enough thats ALL the proof needed to jail me . A Guards opinion .
As for your desire to prevent Omagh ?? jesus christ . A man appeared before the SCC 2 years ago and admitted he suggested republicans bomb Omagh . He admitted scouting cars for a bomb attack in Omagh . He admitted videotaping the town and intelligence gathering for the Omagh bombing . But this man , David Rupert was an MI5/FBI agent operating illegally in this country ? yet he wasnt arrested by your colleagues or placed on trial . Instead he was paid over a million pounds sterling and hailed as a hero by that court because he went paid perjuror against Michael McKevitt . This man even claimed to be at an army council meeting with McK in Donegal , when Garda surveillance records proved McKeviitt was at home in Blackrock and had never set foot in Donegal at any time .
Thats justice in the SCC .
And lets not forget the fact that it was a senior Branch officer who is alleged by Garda John White to have uttered the immortal words "we'll let this one through" when supplying a bomb car for Omagh . This MI5 trained Garda officer has since conveniently legged it from the state , along with Paddy Dixon the Garda spy who supplied bomb cars . Omagh could very easily been prevented , weeks in advance , both sides of the border and with NO special laws because agents were up to their necks in the entire black operation . It was David Rupert by his own admission who set the wheels in motion in the first place .
I hope you have the same opinion Al of the sub-human scum who bombed Dublin and Monaghan . But the question remains that why did garda special branch cover it up for them ? And why have the files just disappeared from Garda custody ? in my opinion those who help in this cover up are sub human scum . Just like the sub human scum who photographed , pointed at and jotted down the car registrations of the Dublin Monaghan victims families to add insult to injury . No response from Al on why his colleagues engaged in such vile and despicable behaviour .
These villains need accountability to the public , but theres none .
And they want more and more power .
I understand to my core, the instinctive antipathy that people have towards guards; and as much if not more, the hatred borne of experience; but this is an open forum, and unlike me, Al is posting under a consistent name (I think) everytime he communicates.
Maybe, he's hit a catarthic purple patch or something, but 14 posts on three threads when he's responding to comments responding to him, that's really not so bad.
What is said is important, not who a person is or pretends to be. Inaccurate comments hopefully get found out; personality-watching or party watching just turns debate into a slaggin' match - defeating the whole purpose of comments.
I'd like someone from Special Branch to answer several questions on indymedia, not because of who they are, but because of their monopoly of dark goings on in this power-ridden society.
Al mentioned Omagh and implied that he would have done anything to stop it.
It seems that the gardai and PSNI at the very least did not act on information that they had before-hand.
I would ask, given the infultration of RIRA and CIRA by north/south/east security forces, how can we be assured that the loss of life on that day was not part of dirty tricks?
Only when we know the names of informants (perhaps never) can we be certain of state forces' involvment in paramilitary activities.
This question mark doesn't just apply to Omagh, but to Dublin-Monaghan, and other attrocities which would put shoot to kill in the halfpenny place.
Even just prior knowledge wihout doing anything about it, is accessory to a crime, but i suspect in many cases, it was worse than that.
not quite a monopoly on dark going on, but they have cornered the market on knowledge with regard to the worst excesses of right-wing state power.
As another poster already stated I post under the same name and in subjects that interest me. I also posted in topics about the Dublin bombing, bintax, Israel and leaflet banning. Unfortunately as this site requires no passwords my name has been used on occasion by imposters which has resulted in certain posts being unfairly blamed on myself. It would not surprise me if Alwatch was using my name to post crap as a slur campaign however onto the subject at hand.
Barry,
I did not search any person and I did not witness any searches however our views cannot be proven so for now I suggest we drop that topic. As for my feelings on other bombings, yes I feel the same contempt for any person that murders innocent people and that includes and members of my own force.
As for Northern Ireland, yes my friend that is another country. I might not like that fact and you obviously dont, but a fact it is.
If you work for a prisoners charity then you are representing murderers, if I suggested all gardai both present and past were whiter than white I would be laughed at, will you make the same statement about IRA prisoners?
As for your membership of RIRA, that is my opinionj based on your comments. You are at the very least a sympathiser who seems to have inside knowledge.
Your assertain that the statement of a Garda is enought o convict, why? because there is no jury? there are still judges that follow the same legal process as a jury. Having no jury is to stop intimidation, a topic I raised already that you felt fit to ignore.
As for Omagh and Dublin, etc. I had a very long debate over this subject with another poster already, if you failed to read this it is not my fault and following intelligent debate which includes links I agreed with that user that there was something fishy there. However I will not believe unsubstaniated claims like the ones you make, provide proof if you want to sway me.
Serial,
I am not special branch however I wish people would stop using this tag, there is no special branch in the Gardai, there is special detective unit. Its only a small thing but shows a lack of knowledge when people are posting. This also goes for SF constantly saying "The An Garda Siochana", the word 'The' is already in the name.
say what you like about me but at least I will fight my corner about the subject at hand and accept if I am proven wrong with facts. Something people seem desperate to avoid, now will anyone actually debate me on the subject of ASBO's and new powers? I have made comments about this but they seem to be ignored.
Macavity's a Mystery Cat: he's called the Hidden Paw--
For he's the master criminal who can defy the Law.
He's the bafflement of Scotland Yard, the Flying Squad's despair:
For when they reach the scene of crime--Macavity's not there!
Macavity, Macavity, there's no on like Macavity,
He's broken every human law, he breaks the law of gravity.
His powers of levitation would make a fakir stare,
And when you reach the scene of crime--Macavity's not there!
You may seek him in the basement, you may look up in the air--
But I tell you once and once again, Macavity's not there!
Macavity's a ginger cat, he's very tall and thin;
You would know him if you saw him, for his eyes are sunken in.
His brow is deeply lined with thought, his head is highly doomed;
His coat is dusty from neglect, his whiskers are uncombed.
He sways his head from side to side, with movements like a snake;
And when you think he's half asleep, he's always wide awake.
Macavity, Macavity, there's no one like Macavity,
For he's a fiend in feline shape, a monster of depravity.
You may meet him in a by-street, you may see him in the square--
But when a crime's discovered, then Macavity's not there!
He's outwardly respectable. (They say he cheats at cards.)
And his footprints are not found in any file of Scotland Yard's.
And when the larder's looted, or the jewel-case is rifled,
Or when the milk is missing, or another Peke's been stifled,
Or the greenhouse glass is broken, and the trellis past repair--
Ay, there's the wonder of the thing! Macavity's not there!
And when the Foreign Office finds a Treaty's gone astray,
Or the Admiralty lose some plans and drawings by the way,
There may be a scap of paper in the hall or on the stair--
But it's useless of investigate--Macavity's not there!
And when the loss has been disclosed, the Secret Service say:
"It must have been Macavity!"--but he's a mile away.
You'll be sure to find him resting, or a-licking of his thumbs,
Or engaged in doing complicated long division sums.
Macavity, Macavity, there's no one like Macacity,
There never was a Cat of such deceitfulness and suavity.
He always has an alibit, or one or two to spare:
And whatever time the deed took place--MACAVITY WASN'T THERE!
And they say that all the Cats whose wicked deeds are widely known
(I might mention Mungojerrie, I might mention Griddlebone)
Are nothing more than agents for the Cat who all the time
Just controls their operations: the Napoleon of Crime!
In a post on the dportation of asylum-seekers, Al was against getting too hung up on words. We do have a Speical Branch Al, no matter what it is called. The first technical name that comes to mind is C Section.
The nature of this group makes proof very difficult. They obviously feel that they've got something to hide, because it seems the European Court of Human Rights is looking for C-section files on two 1974 suspects, but in relation to the Nevin Case. Non-disclosure is one of her grounds for appeal, and media bias by Garda Press office feeds is another.
I know things Al, but it seems, only the gardai can make unsubstantiated allegations and get away with it.
An ombudsman and a more democratic force would go some way into opening up the dank corruption that is part of the GS.
I myself am a victim of garda corruption. They saved my life, but kept changing their story so that the property developer who knocked me down could get off without even claiming off his insurance.
'Prove it' is the reason we have expensive tribunals. Anyone else would end up in court, but the powerful get tribunals and the gardai get their legal fees paid for, despite dragging their heals at every attempt to get at the truth.
The proof is in classified files in Garda HQ, if its not already shreaded. But, of course, i was making no claims, but asking questions remember. You didn't exactly allay my fears with your reply.
"I know things Al" Not enough. Gardai are not entitled to legal aid when facing prosecution. Tribunals are to uncover the truth not prosecute a person, theres a difference. As for the rest of what you say, you admit yourself that they are groundless claims. Why would the Gardai change their stories after saving your life? How about you just say "Thank you" and move on? Or is the fact that you would not be alive to make a claim without the Gardai of little consolation?
Al , im most definitely not a member of the RIRA or any other armed organisation regardless of your opinion . Nor have I any idea what this " inside information" you refer to is or what it even pertains to .
As regards a "garda statement" being enough to secure a membership conviction , the statement does not need any evidence to back it up or even to be an eyewitness account . It is simply sufficient for a senior garda to say "in my opinion this man/ woman is a member of the RIRA" for that person to be sent to jail for 7 years . It doesnt need to be corroborated in any way shape or form .Thats IN EFFECT a policy of internment which operates in the SCC , judicial internment . The outrageous and false opinion youve just expressed about myself and the reasons youve given would be more than enough to have me jailed in the SCC if you were higher up the pay ladder .
The 6 counties may be under another jurisdiction from your own but it is most definitely not another country regardless of your opinion . Ireland is one country and always has been . Part of it is occupied by another more powerful country , theres a huge difference .
And by the way the person you had a lengthy debate with on Dublin/ Monaghan/Omagh who provided links etc that you semi-agreed with was none other than myself . Thats if it was really you I was talking to ??
Tell us about C section Al; do you even deny its existence? Fill us in, why don’t you.
You don’t have much to say on the Dublin-Monaghan bombing on that thread, apart from what Liz O’Donnell (a hero of yours?) would call Sinn Féin-bashing.
TRIBUNALS
See the poewr diferential there…
From RTÉ News, Sept 28th, 2004.
“The Morris Tribunal into garda activities in Donegal has awarded full legal costs to the Garda Representative Association, the Association of Garda Sergeants and a number of individual gardaí.” [the GRA et. al., drag their heals on an independent ombudsman because their protection comes before that of the general public].
http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0928/morris
compare this to the victims of garda dishonesty (RTÉ News, November, 2002).
“The McBreartys say they cannot afford legal representation at an inquiry where decisions on the awarding of costs will only be made at the end.”
http://www.rte.ie/news/2002/1104/morris.html
How many criminal charges have resulted in 8 years of tribunals?
Compare this to when a member of the public commits an alleged transgression against a law that they don’t claim to represent.
If the GCA were interested in the truth, would we be having the Morris Tribunal?
With a record like that, why should the GS be trusted with the power to serve ASBOs?
GRATEFULLY GETTING ON WITH LIFE
The man who hit me was speeding, and gardai who witnessed the accident admitted this. I should not have been hit in the first place, so why should i feel grateful overall?
I was unconscious for three days, and was woken up by gardai at my bedside saying “it was your fault, wasn't it?...We witnessed it...We need you to tell us that the accident was your fault".
I said i didn't remember, but the subsequent constant alteration of the recollection of the garda witnesses and the lack of investigation, no statement off a witness, no brethalising at 12:15 a.m; by the time i could recall, the experience had become an eye-opener into how the system works.
At the time (mid 90s), no solicitor would touch the guards re questioning the proberty of an investigation, and wouldn’t take a neglegence case against them on my behalf. I needed to get at the truth, and I was hearing a lot of contradictions.
I don't expect Al to answer every problem people have with the guards (and there are many, especially by the voiceless), but his comments on the accident are callas.
If i was dead, i'd know no different, but now that i'm happily alive but scarred, I think its my duty to act on the lesson learnt. The Gardai did society a favour by saving my life, because i want people to benefit from my awful experience.
Asbos would be dangerous in the hands of gardai, since many of them have shown a capacity for abuse of power. By the looks of this, they’re not into confidence-building either.
ASBO's are an essential component of modern law enforcement - its either that or send the perpetrators to prison...
How else can society effectively deal with petty crime - all the examples cited are biased and slanted and obviously do not give the full picture... why aren't the circumstances of each case given? ASBOS should be welcomed as they are detterent to loutish behaviour by a small number of students - those who don't engage in anti-social behaviour have no fear of ASBOS...
Mr Hearne is using USI's name (yet again) to pedal anti-society anti-gardai drivel based on nothing but an ideology that 99% of students have no interest in (outside the champagne socialists of ucdsu) - using this propangandaist website to put press statements online which are not sanctioned by the national council of the USI... student leaders have always respected the forces of law and order - Mr hearne represents no one but himself and his socialist worker agenda -
USI has a policy against ASBOs voted upon at its annual national meeting- so last comment is irellevent stirring. Also beware of "Al"- he is on another thread praising a FF meeting- prob a copper.
Apart from being irrelevant stirring the comment from "Dozzey" (Dozzey by name and nature) is also factually untrue. Dozzey tries to give the impression that this is just a Rory Hearne/Socialist Worker/USI solo run. Factually untrue. What about the Union of Secondary Students (USS), Labour Youth, Sinn Féin, Connolly Youth Movement, Irish Council for Civil Liberties (ICCL), Hot Press; to name but a few who have all come out against these ASBOs dozzy? Even the Garda Representative Association (GRA) say that we don't need ASBOs as there is already enough legislation on the books to deal with anti social behaviour! For once I agree with the GRA; they're actually telling the truth! Methinks thinks you dozzy are that obnoxious "Al" using yet another pen name. No sir it is you who are unrepresentative of 99% of students views with your extreme right wing clap trap.
Signed,
A student myself,
Not SWP (Definitely not),
Not UCD or TCD (Absolutely not)
Barry,
'Inside information' concerns your great knowledge of the workings of SF, IRA, RIRA, Dublin bombings, Special crimnal sourt, etc, etc.
In regards to your expert knowledge of 'Garda statements'. A Garda making a remark that someone is a member and not supplying proof as being enough for conviction. How do I put this? Complete and utter shite, its that simple. Will we agree on this? Not a chance in hell.I dont wish to become involved in a tit-for-tat with you which goes further downhill so I suggest we forget about it, I cant prove my side, you cant prove yours. Lets forget about it and get back to the topics at hand.
Barry/Serial,
Which is it? Either I entered an intelligent debate or I didnt, it cant be both.
As for C section, yes I deny it exists, simple because it doesnt. Theres SDU. I already explained that but you decided to ignore my comments. As for your comments header, please allow more than 2 hours for me to reply. I (as everyone here knows) have a job.
As for legal aid, please read my comments again and then if your still unsure of the difference, do some research. I wont continue to repeat myself. Tribunals are not criminal prosecutions, they may or may not follow a tribunal.
Your accident, how did the Gardai save your life if you were run down? Why would they require you to admit liability? Theres no reason for such actions. Such an incident is very easy to investigate. There was and still is no powers for random breathylizing unless we believe alcohol consumed, ironic to think we would need extra powers to do what you expect us to.
As for problems with the Gardai, of course people have problems but not all of them can be answered by myself or anyone else. You cant please all the people all the time. This website proves that. How many were pro and how many were con Gardai after Lusk?
But at last back to ASBO's, even if I am getting fed up repeating myself. Once more for good measure: The great ability in ASBO's is not additional powers for the Gardai, we have various laws we can use already however the main reason I am for then is the additional powers they give councils and other non-Gardai authorities when dealing with continued anti-social behaviour by residents in a certain area.
To all that I didnt respond to,
theres simple to much being posted at me to respond however there is a simple way to know if its me or an imposter. I dont simple abuse people to start a fight. I attempt to debate, sometimes I might make a comment in the heat of the moment but when Im proven wrong I admit it, I changed my opinion and agreed with Barry on Dublin bombing.
In relation to using other names, I dont make off the cuff hear-say comments about people so I dont see why they are made about me. I use my name, 'Al' thats it. Is the poster is not 'Al' then its definitaly not me so dont drag me into a slagging match when I had nothing to do with it to begin with.
Furthermore, I am not stationed in Donegal, I was a child when Dublin was bombed, I have not been a Garda for 30 years and not a high rank. Comments about the Gardai that have nothing to do with me I do not find personally insulting.
I withdraw my comments made against Barry, I have no proof so therefore shouldnt have made them. Its a per hate of mine for hearsay comments to be made.
I also apologise if I trivialised the accident that serial was involved in.
I suggest you read comments before responding to them, Al. In the interest of accuracy, I ought to correct every factual error of your last posts, but hey, I couldn’t be bothered – there are too many and life’s too short. Your repeated inaccuracies and misreading are just as annoying for me as they are for you.
The misreadings are there in black and white (or whatever), and his own inconsistencies remain in indymedia’s newswire. Here, I just look at Special Branch, Tribunals and footnote with the accident cover-up.
“THERE IS NO SPECIAL BRANCH IN THE GARDAÍ”
Al to Barry
“I now doubt your honesty because there was no special branch inside the cemetery. There was more IRA muscle there than Gardai and we were all in uniform.” – an implied acceptance of SB’s existence as opposed to uniformed gardaí.
Later on in the thread “I wish people would stop using this tag, there is no special branch in the Gardai, there is special detective unit.…”, a denial on the basis of nomenclature is hardly a denial at all. In fact, Al states as much in his contribution to McDowell Does It Again:
by Al Saturday, Jun 4 2005, 10:22pm
“the fact that such a long post had nothing better to say other than speak about a words definition shows the argument is on its last legs…Whatever word you use the meaning under these circumstances remains the same.”.
Colloquially, MI5 is known as ‘the box’ in British governing circles, but its still a ‘secret’ service regardless of the name.
http://www.politics.co.uk/issues/mi6-$3277312.htm
Despite its existence being so well known as to have fictional hero James Bond as its most famous member, “Until 1994, successive governments continued to deny the existence of MI6 and its fellow intelligence agencies. A series of Acts in the 1990s have increased the accountability of MI6 to Parliament: the Intelligence Services Act 1994 subjected it to scrutiny from the Parliamentary Intelligence and Security Committee.”
I can understand Al’s ignorance of C Section, since he’s not in the higher echelons of the force, but why pretend to be so authoritative on the matter then? He says “As for C section, yes I deny it exists, simple because it doesn’t. Theres SDU. I already explained that but you decided to ignore my comments.”.
The ignoring charge is ntrue, if he bothered to read my reference to his contrary linguistic sensibilities on another thread but;
Al has said little if anything meaningful about the SDU. We need to know more than that because we pay for it after all (in more ways than one). This is not about heresay, but about trust and accountability, two very large question-marks over the GS today, and honest questions should be traeted seriously by any ‘intelligent’ person with genuine interest in justice.
If it wasn’t for crime, the profession/industry of policing would implode. We should question their motives at the best of times. There is no evidence that more gardaí or more powers for gardaí means less blue collar crime, and yet, we waste vast sums on garda numbers, overtime, crowd-control toys and conferences about same, and obselete computing systems. In Al’s own words in the McDowell thread:
“Too much time, effort and money is spent on people who are abusing a system for selfious reasons. This money could be better invested in housing, tackling drug abuse, building local amenities, etc.”
The GS needs to justify itself and the money we pour into it, before we give it any more powers.
ASBOs are more power for gardaí Al, because, at the very least, who will be asked to enforce them. You claim yourself that the gardaí are already over-stretched. The GS will always want an increase in its budget, and if right-wingers had their way, there would be nothing to the state but the very tyrany of punishment apparatus they held the state to be in the first place.
TRIBUNALS
I never mentioned ‘legal aid’. The confusion was all yours. My point, for the wilfully dull, is that tribunals are expensive fillibusters for the powerful institutions and people, and courts are for the ordinary folk. The former do not generally lead to prosecutions, and that is (I believe) the real reason for their being set up. As I said – if the Garda Complaints Authority did its job, there would be no Morris Tribunal, there would have been a court case with arrests of gardaí, perhaps legal aid, and perhaps, a prosecution.
In one sentence: Those who claim to represent the law get off lightly with tribunals, while the public with no such claims, get the full rigours of state power; or illegal victimisation.
The tax-payer pays the costs in the tribunal charade, of the very people and organizations whose attitude has caused the tribunal to be set up in the first place – the GRA and almost all the gardaí. These people also get monthly salaries while they appear at the tribunal, and they are still against accountability reform.
The victims of the garda siochána on the other hand, will not get paid by the state to attend the tribunal, and cannot afford legal representation with costs in abeyance.
Al, you are not helping to redress thie power differential.
the crux from the horse’s mouth:
Losing battle
by Al Sunday, Jun 5 2005, 3:57am
“jane,
All i see is a person attempting to change the debate because the arguement has been lost… “
If your misreading and confusions are deliberate, such tactics in comments are counterproductive, because they stimulate truths that might otherwise have remained silent.
ACCIDENT
Thanks for the interest Al:
The gardaí who first claimed to have witnessed the accident gave me mouth-to-mouth recussitation. They were later to deny witnessing the acident on the garda abstract I paid £30 for. They then tried to tell me that it was the driver who saved my life, and I shouldn’t think of following up such a kind-hearted man.
There was adequate reason for breathalysing – a near-fatal accident caused by a speeding driver at fifteen minutes after midnight.
No statement was taken off the witness, who later became untraceable.
I agree it would’ve been easy to investigate – why wasn’t it? I don’t know, but I think it may have had something to do with the status of the person who hit me (a Dublin property-developer of some note).
Without honest questions there would be no truth.
Thankyou for that Al . I have to say that despite everything Al is actually one of the very few on this site whove ever withdrawn a hasty comment or has said hes prepared to revise a previously held opinion on anything.
to criticise the new legislation in the UK for ASBO, electronic tagging, withdrawl of cybernetic communication, house arrest.
"compare & contrast eire & uk"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4071968.stm
The above link is about terrorism not ASBO's. I fail to see how it is relevent.
Seriel,
I will only write a short answer or we will both be printing books soon.
Tribunals are not criminal proceedings, I repeat TRIBUNALS ARE NOT CRIMINAL PROCEEDINGS. They are a public investigation into an event or person. Gardai attend them because of their occupations, should I not get paid to attend court either?
There is no need for statements in a traffic collision. Your an injured party, hes a suspect. The Gardai can decide very simple to prosecute or not. You obviously took a civil claim against the driver and called the Gardai as witnesses, I see no reason for them to lie. Why would I care what the guys job is? Its not relevent to me.
NO POWERS TO TAKE BREATH SAMPLES WITHOUT SUSPECTING DRINK DRIVING. Clear enough for you? I drive home in the early hours as do taxi drivers and many, many people. Does that mean we were drinking? BTW I dont drink.
Special branch is SDU. I simple asked for the correct name to be used. I even said it was only a request.
If I know so little about the powers that be above me then how can you know so much? Your not even in the same job.
Accountability, please show the amount of prosecution cases taken against Gardai and then show the same for the PSNI. Show discipline charges against Gardai and then show the PSNI. They are on par with eachother. Therefore the complaints board is working.
ASBO's being enforced by the Gardai is not additional powers to fight anti-social problems for us. we will merely assist when they have been breached.
Please show me why you are anti ASBO, do you not think they will assist in helping law abiding people? Do you not think terrorising an estate should be punished?
but heres a man who is
http://www.32csm.org/gallery09.html
heres another culprit
http://www.32csm.org/gallery12.html
jaysus there goes another one
http://www.32csm.org/gallery10.html
and theres a veritable herd of them
http://www.32csm.org/gallery06.html
thats terrible in my opinion.
Goodness, is that for real?
I didn't know things like that still existed.
Being something of a fashion connoisseur myself, I do appreciate the lads in those outfits though - the way they are all matching and looking so fetching in that shade of green.
I am slightly concerned for the lad at the front however, the one with the large erectile object in his hand. He would have had some awful chafing around the nether regions.
It is terrible though. Shouldn't they all be arrested or something?
ASBOs would be good if they are used fairly, and targeted at anti social elements regardless of social class status.
Unfortunately, the authorities practise selective ASBO targeting and use it mainly against the working class and poor community.
This is shown in the Holylands area belfast, where despite the continuous, horrendous, mindless vandalism, anti social behaviour and hooligan activities of middle class students, the authorities fail to clamp down on students, for fear of agitating the students professional/middle class/SDLP supporting parents.
Its time the authorities ASBO'd middle class students and barred them from wrecking the area and lives of permanent working class residents of the holylands.
Well if anyone manages to wade through all the scintilating er "debate" above this is an excellent site from American sociologist Mike Males. His main point is that "fear of the youth" is now one of the establishment and media's highest grossing shows.
Unfortunately for their "perspective" ALL the American statictical evidence points to more and more responsible attitudes - despite greater access to tv, porn,internet, video games, alcohol, drugs etc etc.
The ONLY exception being young people in areas of massive poverty and deprevation.
I'd would say much of his stuff is highly relevent to the ASBOs debate here.
http://home.earthlink.net/~mmales/
I was mildly offended at your insinuation that the debate here has not been thoroughly rivetting, however, I have a few queries regarding your post, if you don’t mind helping me.
Who is this Mike Males and what’s his background/position/qualifications? What’s his story? He writes on American ‘youth’??
What do you mean by “ALL the American statictical evidence”? That’s one massive statement there krossie. What does this have to do with Irish youth and their environments/behaviour? How are “more and more responsible attitudes” gauged and measured?
“The ONLY exception being young people in areas of massive poverty and deprevation.”
And there is the clanger! These are the young people for whom the issue of ‘anti-social behaviour’ would be most relevant and from whom it would be anticipated by law enforcement agencies/judiciary etc… What’s the point in polling youths in privileged positions or environments? And finally krossie, what is the percentage of young people living in massive poverty and depravation?
listen governer if you can't click on a webpage and find out your self
I can't do it for you!
He's a senior researcher for the centre on Juvenile and Criminal Justice and he teaches sociology at the University of Santa Cruz
The stats are all there - his main arguement seems to be that classic one that crime is being generated by poverty and the all the "youth scares" are just that. In fact "the youth" in general are becoming more and more "well behaved"
He seems far from the type that would advocate ASBOs in any case more like massive anti poverty programmes.
I've probably exagerated a little - I will admit
Go on click it
http://home.earthlink.net/~mmales/
This chapter is particularly good
http://home.earthlink.net/~mmales/chap-5.htm
krossie
Thanks chief. Not much help though! I did click but was looking to you for an abridged version.
One of the links didn't respond well to clicking either.
Chuckle, chuckle. I've been away for a week, so poor old alwatch ain't me.
Looking forward to having a natter. I take it the nom de plume is in deference to your ex-chief super. How sweet? Did Ray get his job? How are you all getting on with Implementing the "Highlighting Active Criminals" policy?
I think the point about "areas of massive poverty and deprevation" is that this demonstrates that ASBO's are not primarily about individual behaviour but about poverty. They are a draconian solution to behavour that arises from inequality.
The estate I live in was used by Primetime as a location to interview kids up for repeat offences for anti-social crimes. Friends visiting me are often harassed by teenage gangs - at least one had a knife pulled on him. So I'm not excusing anti-social behaviour. But ASBO's are simply intended as a low cost 'solution' to problems whose causes lie in the increasing inequality in the celtic tiger and the massive over crowding that the housing crisis has led to. If you have 9 people in a 3 bed roomed house then the kids are going to be out on the streets a lot - and there is normallly nothing to do on the streets except hang around on the corners.
These conditions will lead to people subject to and in fear of anti-social behaviour looking to all sorts of immediate solutions from ASBO's to paramilitaries. And it is no secret that part of the reason for the introduction of ASBO's is as electoral tactic to remove one of the reasons why people vote for parties with paramilitary wings.
The paramilitary stuff results in physically crippled adults and ti appears some youth suicides. ASBO's will result in kids being jailed and so turned into 'professional' criminals. In terms of the community they are meant to protect ASBOs are thus worse than punishment beatings as the long term effect will be more people making a living through muggings, burgulary and drug dealing in that area.
The 'solution' to that will presumably be more jails and longer sentences till we end up with the US model where a sizeable percentage of the population of poor working class areas is either in prison, on probation or on bail. But this is no big deal for the likes of McDowell - if anything the US model shows that an increase in the number of people making their living through crime is good for right wing politicians as it increases the demand for the 'law and order' solutions they offer.
In terms of an actual solution we need an end to the housing crisis and inequality. In the short term we need communities given the resources to get their kids off the streets (sports facilities, social centres, youth workers etc) and to deal with the small minority of kids already socialised into anti-social behaviour. This isn't rocket science but it also doesn't fit the neoliberal agenda.
cod: Thanks chief. Not much help though! I did click but was looking to you for an abridged version.
One of the links didn't respond well to clicking either.
OK give this a go!
http://www.alternet.org/story/10904
Krossie
Those calling for ASBOs are still very shy about showing that they'll do any of what they claim that they'll do. There is plenty of evidence from the UK that ASBOs are not going to do anything except criminalise more people and waste garda resources. I asked Al for some evidence that would support his contention that the introduction of these draconian measures would do any good and he wasn't able to pull any up. Since then I've been looking around to see what evidence is available that ASBOs are an effective and prudent measure to introduce.
It doesn't look like it.
It looks like the money would be better spent on getting the slack-jawed, fat-arsed guards to issue tickets for the rich yobs blocking bike lanes in their Kompressors, or assisting the revenue commissioners in investigations into some of the people that make large donations to political parties.
Below are two recent, well-researched reports about ASBOs. The first suggests alternative, more effective funding goals for any minister for justice that seeks to reduce anti-social behaviours, the second categorizes attitudes about ASBs.
Howard League for Penal Reform calls for the removal of money wasted on ASBOs in rural areas and the creation of youth programs instead:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4350519.stm
Institute for Criminal Policy Research report that shows that most of the population is not affected by ASBs (over 67%) and that the effects are disproportionately felt in poorer communities, but that most people surveyed in those communities feel that ASBOs are not necessary:
http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/law/research/icpr/publications/ASBreport.pdf
Listen, Im getting on a plane in a few hours so you can moan at me for the next week all you like. If you want proof look at the other 4 threads about ASBO's, heres the one I was involved in:
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=69834&search_text=ASBO
As for my evidence, its the exact same as the ones I posted on the 27th May:
http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/news/s/146/146771_asbos_do_work_says_research.html
http://www.crackcocaineincamden.co.uk/pages/crack%20cocaine%20news/news%20pages/0100/0045.htm
http://www.crimereduction.gov.uk/fearofcrime0219.htm
http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtimes.co.uk/news/features/display.var.573450.0.asbos_do_they_really_work.php
OK?
Off to buy that new property in the sun? Or doing a bit of deporting?
What I do with my time off is my business. What did you do for the past week? Buy any nice property in Spain? Or are you only back because your 'Alwatch' suit is in the cleaners?
BTW, would you like to post about ASBO's at any point in this thread?
Dont be anti social
I'm not Alwatch. Wasn't alwatch. Won't be alwatch. You brought me into this thread with a false accusation.
Off to Killarney for a bit of r n r. More rotten apples?
9 June, 2005
Sinn Féin spokesperson on Justice, Equality and Human Rights, Aengus Ó Snodaigh TD has addressed a press confernece today on Anti-Social Behaviour Orders and the Criminal Justice Bill, at the Earl of Kildare Hotel on Kildare Street. Deputy Ó Snodaigh outlined the reasons for Sinn Féin's opposition to ASBOs and the party's alternative proposals for dealing with anti-social behaviour.
...
Sinn Féin's basic position on the alternatives to ASBOs is the following:
* Much of what is represented as "anti-social" behaviour is actually criminal behaviour. Crime should be prosecuted.
* We need better community policing to deter and to enforce the existing law.
* We need more resources to enhance community supervision by the Probation and Welfare Service.
* We need the full implementation of the Children's Act 2001.
* We need community restorative justice alternatives to imprisonment or fines.
* Where the behaviour involved is disruptive and offensive but not criminal, we need a community mediation service for conflict resolution such as that operating in Norway.
you culd just beat the shit out of them
Oh, hang on, it already is being...
I hope he's going somewhere with no blueberrys or 3g fones or Internets cafes
and humanist that I am I hope the local cops don't look for bribe money, deport him or slap him with an asbo
Glad to see this issue is now being addressed by Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanger
Al, the cognitive strain was apparent in your posts, and I hope you get well soon.
ASBOs are stupid
Some communities are plagued by persistent ASB, and many households feel isolated and stressed by ‘neighbours from hell’. There are real problems, and we should take seriously, the concerns of the immediate victims, not just with mantras, but with constructive ways of helping to solve their problems. To this end, I found Sinn Féin’s comment to be the most constructive.
but, as to Al’s question of why I’m against ASBOs, well here are some reasons:
1. Causes of ASB remain untackled
As Rory H, Self and Joe have suggested, ASBOs are a quick-fix solution that ignores the causes of what it claims to address. Such individualistic philosophies as those held by the right-wing FF/PD, have led to a weakening of community awareness, and outright community dispersal – as with the movement of thousands from inner city tenaments, to concrete wastelands where property developers and speculators thrived at their expense.
A more general attitude of individualism and hence, alienation is generated by and through the media, and I believe this is at least partly responsible for some people having no respect for their neighbours.
To paraphrase Hazel Nolan of the Union of Secondary Students on Near FM (Thursday), It takes a whole community to raise a young person, and the whole community is responsible for the outcome. Young people always respond positively to nurturing.
Investment in ‘facilities’ for the young and a lower pupil-teacher ratio is far more desirable than the hiring of more guards and the building of more prisons; but fear tactics rather than sensible policy promises tend to get politicians elected, and this is the hallmark of the Right. Maybe, they even believe their own hype and hysteria (as can the fascist Left in some of its issues).
2. Civil issues turned into criminal offences – e.g., in UK, people ordered not to wear hoodies in shopping centres, can now be arrested if they cannot or do not pay the fine for breaking the ASBO.
Hazel Nolan pointed out that even a borderline case of ASB could give a person a criminal record if the fine is not paid – perhaps they can’t afford it. This has knock-on effects for employment, perhaps prison etc.
Erving Goffman and Howard Becker both wrote in the late 50s and early 60s, along the lines that ‘if the powerful define something as being real, it becomes real in its consequences.’ A person told often enough or sharply enough that they are flawed, will believe that, and perhaps attempt to play out that particular role more impressively.
3. They’re an attack on basic Human Rights and the Public Sphere.
Legal sanction against expression, of people who have not committed any crime, is a step in the direction of totalitarianism.
The amount of circumstances in which ASBOs have been abused is approaching police-state proportions in Britain. Anti-social behaviour depends on whose defining the norms. Binge-drinking is hyped, and monied lobbying is ignored already in Ireland, but subtle shifts towards the criminalising of dissent would be much harder to detect if ASBOs were around.
This dissent doesn’t have to be conventional communication, but, for example, take the case of skate-boarding, which is being penned evermore, into official centres which are few and far between. Skateboarding is one of the activities that could reduce the growing obesity problem among Irish youth, and they would do it anywhere; likely as not, this will be one of the activities subject to ASBOs, as may kickin’ a ball in the street or picking mushrooms (an occupation which greatly enhances one’s appreciation of our evanescent, verdent pastures).
ASBOs could be slapped on those at Speaker’s Squares, on buskers, on country walkers, on the homeless: always the vulnerable and voiceless of course.
4. Punishment doesn’t work: neither does it stop crime nor stop anti-social behaviour. This is true for all of history and all societies. Scandinavia has the least punitive justice systms, and the least crime rates – I don’t know about ASB because they’re a pretty ‘normal’ lot anyway.
5. Unaccountable and untrostworthy gardaí (my basic theme on this thread, and Barry’s and Justo’s)
Al shouted in his last post at me: “Tribunals are not criminal proceedings“.
Exactly, Al. Instead of criminal prosecutions, the powerful get tribunals, and these are not likely to lead to prosecutions. That is why they’re there. They’re also far more expensive than the courts (which more efficiently deal with the powerless and the poor). If gardaí had to appear on charges for their misdemeanours, they would not be paid a salary (unlike tribunals).
My accident ten years ago is relevent to the accountability issue from a first-hand point of view, but Al doesn’t get it. I won’t re-live it once more for his benefit, but some salient features:
Two gardaí witnessed the accident (“All I seen was you flyin’ ten or fifteen feet up in the air and landin’ down on the road like a sack of coal”), and one of them got me breathing again. This was denied on the garda abstract.
Speeding at midnight on a main city road, and almost killing a pedestrian; I would’ve thought that reason enough to breathylize a driver.
Three days later as I was woken up in hospital to find gardaí asking me to admit liability.
I was forced to go to a solicitor because when the ‘Community Welfare Officer’ seen me on crutches and in bits, she wouldn’t give me rent allowence till she’d a solicitor’s letter explaining the details of the claim.
Visiting (with difficulty) this solicitor over the next three months, the garda stories kept changing, and my ‘counsel’ eventually persuaded me to drop it. I always meant to pursue it with another solicitor when I was well enough, but by that time, the case was statute barred. With the garda witnesses having changed their story, there wasn’t much hope of insurance, let alone prosecution.
A solicitor who wasn’t bent, told me that he couldn’t have touched the guards anyway, but that he could’ve sued the solicitor for neglegence if it was not took statue barred.
Al: “I see no reason for them to lie. Why would I care what the guys job is? Its not relevent to me.” Promotion, keeping one’s job.”
Gardaí gain promotion through links with political parties, most notably, FF (the Builders’ Party). Some garda y’are if ya don’t know that.
On the same programme as Hazel Nolan, Frank McBrearty Jr. voices vehement opposition to ASBOs. Under the Public Order Act, he was fitted up four times in nine minutes as part of the ongoing campaign against him by some of the tribunal’s paid subjects.
As things stand, the word of a garda is all that’s needed to convict someone for a Public Order offence, and even if a witness withdraws a statement, it can still be used without his support. So, for instance, all the false public order charges made against Frank McBrearty could be re-initiated at any time, despite his accusors having proven to be corrupt. Will ASBOs be any different?
If I have evidence of garda sculduggery; for it to become proof, it would have to go before a tribunal or, better still, a court. The conventional thing to do would be to go to the Garda Complaints Authority with my information, but they are ineffective, and ‘truth-finding’ Morris agrees. No wonder the GRA want the status quo re GCB, since fidelity to other members seems to be more important in garda culture, than any sense of justice.
On the other hand, if a garda dislikes me for any bizarre or grotesque reason, he may decide to act as judge and jury.
No to right-wing police culture.
Yes to community awareness.
I have the stats on GCB complaints-prosecution, but will probably post them as another thread when I’ve tied them up (ho ho). They are an indictment of the GRA et. Al’s position, since the GCB Chairman himself admits the structure has to be over-haulled, and he has not-too-flattering things to say about GRA ‘support’ for the GCB.
I haven't posted on good old Indy since the Barrett/UCD row and got my head chopped off for my trouble but. . .
As far as I can see the main trouble with the ASBO system is that it enables authorities to de facto criminalise behaviour which is not in normal circumstances considered criminal.
The better quality UK papers such as the Guardian and the Independent have been quite good in keeping track of the excesses of the current UK system which we look likely to emulate and which seems completely shocking. For example, a teen with Tourette's Syndrome has been ASBO'ed against swearing in public, a serially-suicidal woman has been prohibited from loitering near rivers/railway tracks/tall buildings etc. etc. - surely regardless of one's political standpoint this must be abhorrent - left wingers and liberals will decry the massive infringement of indivual civil liberties and right-wingers will have very little time for mickey mouse circumvention of proper measures to ensure law and order.
It is exceedingl difficult to avoid concluding that we seem likely to inherit a hideous mish-mash in this instance which will embody so many very objectionable features that the ASBO system should be strenuously resisted by all concerned citizens.
PS. Can I recommend "JUST LAW" by Helena Kennedy as a book which provides a shocking indictment of the appalling extent to which civil liberties and justice has been eroded in the UK in recent years, we should be very very nervous here. . . .
Regards.