Racists heckle last night's Afghan solidarity vigil. Where was the Left?

by Deirdre Clancy - Pitstop Ploughshares/Unmanageables Wed May 17, 2006 23:03

Not only is it disturbing for the schoolchildren and activists to have gangs of racists taunting them, it is also upsetting for the friends and relatives of the hunger strikers, many of whom are standing vigil outside the church. At once stage after the vigil was over, an older guy came along, and it seemed he was playing a role in encouraging/organising the racist youths. If more activists fail to turn up tomorrow and in the next few days, there's a chance the situation could become dangerous, especially for the Muslims outside the cathedral.

There is a certain hardness and self-interest that has permeated Dublin in the last few years. Let's try to reclaim those things about our tradition that are compassionate, aware and intelligent, and not allow our capital city to become utterly mean-spirited. Whether or not you agree with hunger strikes tactically, and many don't, these men are vulnerable and need solidarity.

"A kindness spontaneously offered to him who needs it, is doubly gratifying."

"Laws are like cobwebs, which may catch small flies but which let wasps and hornets break through."

"Ambition often puts men upon doing the meanest offices; so climbing is performed in the same position with creeping."

Jonathan Swift, Dean of St. Patrick's 1713-1742.

by antifa Wed May 17, 2006 23:07

Taken from an Irish far right website,

"Well we would need at least 10 Guys or Gals of courage to protest this. Now I am not a born political organiser, but I feel strongly that this "church" thing is taking the piss. Anyone who is interested email me at XXXX@xxx.xxx , (and I'm warning that no Crypto-Reds need mail me)and keep reading this thread I will set up a mailing list so that people can organise to meet, make placards. Courage is needed here and strength in numbers."

by raymond deane - ipsc Wed May 17, 2006 23:16

I'd like to second everything Fintan Lane has written here. It strikes me that on many levels what is happening in St Patrick's Cathedral at present is one of the most momentous and awful crises to have hit this country in recent years. The same state that warns its citizens to stay away from Afghanistan because of its lawlessness is ruthlessly deporting asylum-seekers back to that same hell-hole, while our villainous and authoritarian Minister for (In)Justice spouts about 'disturbances' in Afghanistan and an 'alleged' hunger-strike in Dublin. While we expect this kind of thing from McDowell, and from the Progressive Democrats, we expect something very different from anti-war activists and from those on "the left", however nebulously defined: we expect solidarity - and we're not getting it.

The failure of large numbers to turn up in support of the hunger-strikers puts wind in the sails of the racist thugs who tried to hi-jack today's proceedings. These youngsters were not just jeering at us demonstrators - they were jeering at the hunger-strikers themselves, and shouting vile slogans about "foreigners". The same media who completely ignore the presence of supporters of the Afghans are delighted to film the antics of thugs who revel in the attention. If we see newspaper headlines like "Demonstrators call for deportation of Afghans" it will be partly the fault of activists who failed to turn up in such numbers as to cow the racists.

Remember - 12.30 and 18.30 - even if you only come for half an hour!

by redjade - {wish i was there} Wed May 17, 2006 23:27

Fintan: Especially disappointing was the non-appearance of many anti-war and socialist activists, who one would expect to be there .... but where is Ireland's revolutionary left? This absence, in my opinion, needs to be explained.

Reading all this from a distance, I assume I know what group(s) you are writing about - the usual three letters, that is.

On September 27, 2003 I asked:
'Have we forgotten Afghanistan? {why?}'
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/61338

In response from this post (personal conversations with members of said three letter group)
I had often been told that if every country that the US occupied by its own troops or by proxy was listed on a poster there would be very little room left.

Said with humour, of course - and it has more than some truth to it.

But I never got a straight answer as to why the IAWM (please correct me if I'm wrong) neverhad listed Afghanistan on its Anti War Rally posters. (for the big important rallies, that is)

It's not so much that I am trying to catch the IAWM in a contradiction (where would i start?!) but I have genuine unanswered question: Why have they ignored Afghanistan in their Rally posters?

2003 IAWM Poster,Temple Bar, Dublin

by risible - 1 of Indymedia Ireland Editorial Group Wed May 17, 2006 23:38

I'm sure that we'll all be interested to see them. Meanwhile does anyone know these beauties?

by concerned community against racism Wed May 17, 2006 23:50

The first posting about this sinister right wing, racist presence appeared yesterday evening. It was reported that an english man threathened a supporter of the men who approached him with a video camera. Later that night the same english man and another older Dubliner stayed on untill the early hours while a lone Garda kept watch over the 2 Afghanis who slept outside. It seems that there was a heated discussion between these men with their young supporters from the area and 2 or 3 supporters of the hunger strikers who were there in solidarity at 1am. It has been said that there was extremely racist and frightening words coming from the racists along the lines of "they are all terrorists", "they will rape and kill our women", "kick them out now or this country will go to ruin", "they are taking our jobs" and that they were giving instructions to the youths on how best to mobilise a mob for the following day to kick the hunger strikers out. Photos of these men were posted last night on another indymedia thread.

Apparently a lot of the kids yesterday were supportive of the mens actions but today the same kids have changed their tone were shouting "immigrants out, kick them out". Most people who took part in the vigil this evening did ignore the young group that seemed intent on causing trouble, but things changed when an egg was thrown at the group and hit a young man who confronted the group and tempers briefly flared. The men from last night were not there at this stage, but at around 7pm the english man returned and sat with the children untill the supporters departed. Some people are claiming that the man has come from the British National Party, BNP, and is here to stir as much racism and hatred as possible while this hunger strike lasts.

All those who want peace, justice and equality should confront this man and nip this potentially lethal situation in the bud.

the english man

some of his gang of racists

by Caoimhe - RAR pers cap Wed May 17, 2006 23:59

I asked the lone guard (who was standing laughing and joking wiht the racists at times) outside the cathedral if he took any of the names of the people involved and he told me that he didnt but that he was aware of who they were. When I asked him about taking their names or taking any action against the racists due to the fact that they were openly inciting racial hatred and making comments that were clearly racial harrassment and abuse he told me that he was told by his superiors that he wasnt to stop anybody from protesting. When I explained that I wasnt asking him to stop anybody from protesting, just to stop people from making unlawful comments he told me that not everything they were saying was racist and reiterated that he wasnt there to stop anyone from protesting.

by Ciaron - Dublin catholic Worker Thu May 18, 2006 00:11

As the Irish state stands poised to deport Afghanis to a state where religious freedom is denied, where a Christian was recently sentenced to death for his choice of religion, one has to ask where are the rank & file Christians of Dublin? Where do they stand in relation to the Christian tradition & praxis of sanctuary of the church?

The history of sanctuary is a long one. "Sanctuary was more or less formalised practise in ancient Egypt, Syria, Greece and Rome. Political fugitives, debtors, and slaves on the run all passed beyond the pale of revenge by making into the precints of a recognised shrine (Wes Howard Brooks "Becoming Children of God", Orbis Press, Maryknoll, New York 1994).

In the Christian tradition, sanctuary has its roots in the early pacifist church and its role as intermediary in disputes ("lest innocent blood be shed"), as fugitives were protected, slaves interceded for and debtors sheltered until a bargain could be made with those seeking vengeance or forgiveness given. Rediscovering the sanctuary as sanctuary has often been a "confessinal" and clarifying moment in the history of the church. Its declaration celebrates the soveriegnty of God (of peace, justice, love, life) in history, marking the limit of civil authority.

Although the function, practice and theology of sanctuary is not to be circumscribed by civil acknowledgement in the history of the church, Christian sanctuary has enjoyed various seasons of legal recognigiton.

The period and place where sanctuary was most formalised was England, where for several centuries at any given time there were more than a thousand under protection of the Church's peace.The ecclesiastical turf was carefully set forth, and elaborate procedures for the sanctuary seker obtained.

There have been other occasions, however, when the sanctuary of the Church has been swamped by the State.

In January 1933, the altar od Madeburg Cathedral and many other churches in Germany were smothered in swastika flags. As American bombs rained on Vietnam, Panama, Afghanistan and Iraq, the stars and stripes could be found on altars throughout the U.S.

For the most part, however, the practice of sanctuary has been fraught with risk. This has been the story since the underground railroad in the U.S. which hid escaping slaves to the martyrs of the French village of Le Chambon who secreted Jews in the 1940's to the 1980's sanctuary movement responding to central American refugees fleeing north from U.S. sponsored wars.

On October 28 1991, Sabastio Ranel, an East Timorese student. was seeking sanctuary in the Motael church grounds when he was slain by Indonesian troops. By the time his November 12 funeral procession reached the Santa Cruz cemetery it was transformed by the same troops, into the bloodbath of the Dili massacre. Over 200 East Timorese were butchered that day.

In the late '90's when the Australian foreign minister Gareth Evans tried to deport 1300 East Timorese (including some of the survivors of the Dili Massacre) from Australia to Portugal at the request of the Indonesian military, a handful of us initiated a sanctuary movement. The movement grew to 20,000 Australians signed up to defy the government and offer sanctuary to the East Timorese. The Australian Government backed off and the East Timorese were finally granted legal status to stay in Australia. It was one of the nonviolent initiatives that led to the end of the western backed Indonesian war on East Timor.

Christians in Dublin need to respond to the cry of the Afghani refugees in St. Patricks Cathedral. Refugees who are fleeing a war that we in Ireland and Australia helped to facilitate. a Christian response needs to be made public today on the streets of Dublin.

by Keep cool Thu May 18, 2006 00:23

The macho escalation of this stream will play into the hands of the state and undermine the integrity of the Afghanis struggle.

Remember who is centre stage in this issue. Once you start reacting to the predictible provacation, the provactueur wins. If these people didn't exist, the state would have to invent them to get the violent reponse that seems to be being suggested here. Don't undermine the Afghanis. They are the focus and risjs they are taking are heroic. The solidairty is a upportive sideshow. The state and media would like to make it a violent mainstream story.

Think of creative ways to engage the kidz. Fight fire with water!

by ('',) - AY - Pers Cap Thu May 18, 2006 00:25

It is important that all activists turn up for tommorrows vigils, lets show the racists who owns the streets.

by JJ Thu May 18, 2006 00:27

but will you be there at 6.30pm tomorrow evening?? As Fintan says, words are no longer enough.

by ('',) Thu May 18, 2006 00:30

I was at last nights 6.30 vigil, todays 12.30 vigil and i will indeed be at tommorrows evening one.

(As were several members of AY at different times)

by Stay cool Thu May 18, 2006 00:34

I'm 12,000 miles away, but I'm working on it.

If it becomes a centre stage of "who owns the streets". You alienate the moderates at the Cathedral, who are doing a not bad job for moderates thereby undermining the Afghanis and you give the state and the mainstream media the diversion they need. If that's not painfully obvious I dunno what is...but I guess boys will be boys..easily provoked and manipulated by the powers that be that are presently been confronted by the Afghanis.

by anti-fascist Thu May 18, 2006 00:37

I agree that we shouldn't let the neo-nazi element detract from the central issue. This will just play into their hands. At the same time the right wing are attempting to rally around this issue and are currying favour with local youth up for a bit of trouble. They must be confronted in some manner (even just by show of numbers and focusing directly on kids in some manner). These things have always started.
small.

They are disorganised NOW, but there are attempts to form a more organised group and latching on to current issues, read this from a nazi site, revealing and (at the end) even slightly amusing:

"The Irish working class are as disgruntled right now as you are ever going to get them, for National Socialism the tide is high right now, but we need to broaden the appeal - yes Immigration is the No 1 priority, but we need to expand this platform to things that the left are considered 'soft' on. I suggest Law & Order, Travellers, A & E problems, Drugs, Some Environmental ISsues and crucially starting at community level. Say what you like about the socialist workers, boyd barret et al but they do know how to infiltrate a situation and make it theirs."

by not a boy Thu May 18, 2006 01:25

Plz dont patronise and assume that people are male.

by Coilín Thu May 18, 2006 01:54

I don't think the comments quoted above - "they are all terrorists", "they will rape and kill our women", "kick them out now or this country will go to ruin", "they are taking our jobs" etc. - are unlawful, and nor do I think they should be.

Upholding the fundamental principle of free speech means that the police must not interfere with demonstrations or counter-demonstrations, even when you or I might disagree with the chants of racist demonstrators. There is a fundamental and inevitable trade-off here: Anti-war and anti-racist activists MUST tolerate racist chants and comments in exchange for the right to chant anti-war, anti-fascist, anti-Bush or anti-Howard slogans when it is our turn.

The way to defeat the counter-protesters is NOT to arrest or harrass them for exercising their right to free speech but to outnumber and out-chant them, and to offer more persuasive arguments in what we say and print.

Verbal threats (i.e. assault) and even minor acts of violence such as throwing eggs (i.e. battery) are another matter entirely. In such instances, statements should be made to the gardaí, and photographs of the threateners and egg-throwers should be taken and submitted to in evidence.

Apart from that, I find it curious that Irish people should associate with English racists. In a way, it makes perfect sense, as many of us are, after all, descendants and heirs of British colonists. ;-)

Good luck.
Coilín.

by Stay cool Thu May 18, 2006 02:11

You're right I'd like to retract that remark.

I've lost my cool at demos and I just lost my cool typing that...sorry had to get up at an ungodly hour to watch the European Cup. You'll have to put it down to sleep deprivation. It's good to go into conflict situations well rested and keeping the initiative, which Arsenal lost in the first 10 minutes when their goalie lost his cool. Good luck in Dublin, the main game remains the racists in suits not on the streets, the racists in bovver boots and uniforms are a premeditated distraction.

by Shutterbug Thu May 18, 2006 02:13

... on camera.

Racists ...

... Taunting The Supporters

Older Guy - Encouraged The Racists...

... When He Wasn't Hiding Behind The Kids

by Dermot L - Labour (personal cap) Thu May 18, 2006 03:41

The pessimism in the posts of Fintan and others above are totally understandable. I was at the 6.30 vigil and felt that same sense of desperation. But at this stage it's important not to overplay the role of the local thugs in what is a massive issue of national interest. Standing across from kids shouting racist abuse for hours and end will depress any left wing activist.

But these are not organised racists and we mustn't focus on their intimidating presence, even if it is so off-putting. Caoimhe is correct above - the Guard should have moved them on. It isn't an issue of free speech, for me anyway, to be screaming racist abuse in the manner they did.

The Garda though, clearly just up from Templemore, was hardly going to do anything and his behaviour and actions did nothing to help the situation. I wasn't there after 7.15 so can't comment on anything that happened after but I hope people remain upbeat and positive and continue to reach out and campaign on behalf of these brave and desperate men.

PS - for the record, a number of Labour Party/Labour Youth activists were present both today and this evening. Joe Costello TD has visited the hunger strikers a number of times as has Michael D Higgings TD and Brendan Howlin TD. I think we need to be careful with naming organisations because not everyone wears their party colours but would still be offput to be excluded in a report as above. i also saw a number of Socialist Party activists there today.

by Larry Thu May 18, 2006 04:34

I find some of the reactions here ridiculous. I wonder how some people might behave if they came up against a number of serious nazis, rather than a few spotty teenagers who just see the opportunity to engage in a bit of old-fashioned bullying. Most of them are not seasoned racists, just inexperienced (and misled) young people.

It is important that we quickly identify all of them and talk to them individually. It may be necessary, and psychologically useful, to visit them at their places of residence for such a discussion. I think you will find that when things are explained to them by a couple of mature and experienced activists they will begin to understand that they have been misled and they will see the stupidity of their actions. Some of them may even be won over to an anti-racist position.

by observer Thu May 18, 2006 09:45

You guys are priceless!! A few local kids, who look about 14 or 15 "taunt" you and you all think you are on the barricades in Barcelona. And invent nonsense about the BNP. What a bunch of saddoes. BTW, I'm not surprised that the "revolutionary left" has abandoned this. Those with electoral pretensions realise that this is extremely unpopular with working class voters. They are also fundamentally cowards.

by Fintan Lane Thu May 18, 2006 10:20

There are a few useful comments here and some that completely miss the point.

It appears that these teenagers (who are locals) are being encouraged by older men, who remain in the shadows. This is an assumption, albeit based on some circumstantial evidence, and not confirmed as yet. It is these older individuals that we need to identity and confront if the situation escalates. The teenagers, as Larry says, are in a different category and should be dealt with in a different manner. They were highly abusive, shouting nasty remarks about the hunger strikers and chanting anti-immigrant slogans, but it is unlikely that there's much 'ideological' depth to their nastiness. There is no point is treating them as if they are utterly beyond redemption.

The Afghan hunger strike, however, partly because of the hostile press and radio coverage, could be seen by tattered Irish far-right - the miniscule 'Celtic Wolves', for example - as a rallying point. It should be a rallying point for the left, but instead it is bringing virulent Irish racism into the open. Let us be clear about this: if the left allows last night's events outside the cathedral to become 'normal', it will assist the emergence of an organised neo-fascist movement in this country. These things begin small.

Ultimately, the way to deal with this current situation is for people (particularly activists) to turn out in large numbers for the vigils, in order to marginalise the racist minority. Eight to ten racists can have an impact when heckling 30 to 40 people at a vigil, but will fade into insignificance if 100 and more people are present.

Incidentally, for those who figure that 30 or 40 is enough, please remember that not all of that number were experienced political activists. Some were schoolkids and others were concerned people who had dropped by to offer solidarity. To deal with racist hecklers, the more experienced activists we have on the spot, the better.

by Deirdre Clancy - Pitstop Ploughshares/Unmanageables Thu May 18, 2006 10:36

That last poster is clearly trying to derail things, so I'll ignore that.

The comment before said the reactions on the thread are ridiculous. All anyone suggested was that there would be strength in numbers there to support the men. Nobody is suggesting organising a vigilante group.

Some activists actually did try to engage with the racists, and were threatened with physical violence. On a couple of occasions, they were pretty close to violence and the schoolchildren that were there were upset, but gallantly ignored them. Nobody lost their cool except the racists.

I think the first priority is actually the men in the church and their friends - that's who I am there to support.

I don't think they are a highly organised group of neo-nazis; they looked like a bunch of stoned desperadoes with time on their hands to me. But there is actually strong evidence to suggest they're being manipulated by right-wing ideologues, and therefore it would be unwise not to look at the possibility that the situation could escalate.

And personally, I think it would be unrealistic and naive to think that a few activists will change their opinions by just reasoning with them, as that's already been attempted anyway. As for calling to their homes - maybe their local community workers or social workers could plausibly do that, but the reception would most likely be less than welcoming if a couple of lefties turned up on their territory to try to persuade them not to be racists. However, the person who suggested this strategy is more than welcome to attempt it if they wish.

by Deirdre Clancy Thu May 18, 2006 10:37

I was referring to 'Observer' when I mentioned the last poster.
Otherwise, I was referring to 'Engage with them individually'.

by Davy Carlin Thu May 18, 2006 10:38

If racist are there, and more especially causing intimidation to young supporters of the strikers - then it is par for the course that the Revolutionary Left are there.

by observer Thu May 18, 2006 11:02

Such nonsense. What right wing are manipulating these kids? In fact is it not the case that the so-called "revolutionary left" is simply fantasising about non-existent fascists as part of their juvenile games? Unfortunately this game will possibly end in the deaths of the men on hunger strike. At which point RAR and the rest will move on to their next big thing. I don't expect Flynn et al to have any more cop on or integrity but elected representatives such as Costello, Higgins and O'Snodaigh (who was probably elected by the parents of the kids slagging off the vigil) ought to be more repsonsible and tell the men to give up their strike. Their presence is only compounding the problem and deluding them into beliving that they have public support (which is miniscule) or that they will be successful in changing the Department's decision, which they will not.

by Dave - Swp Thu May 18, 2006 11:03

Of course Fintan and Raymond et al are right to call everyone down to the vigils and if you can atall make it you should go.

The demo on saturday should be publicised as widely as possible and we should think carefully about the route so that as many people as possible are made aware of the protest.

All of the organisations involved should also be encouraging all of their members, contacts and supporters to go along an support these men at the 12.30 and 6.30 times and on saturday

I think it is also important that we are raising the issue and taking on the arguments in our workplaces and communities, as the media propaganda will have done some damage. I work somewhere pretty liberal but there is still alot of misinformation to deal with- not many are aware of the real dangers in Afghanistan at the moment, for example.

Depending how long this strike continues, we might have to collectively rethink our tactics and try and come up with some more ideas about how to maximise support

Again, solely for the record, I heard about the racists from an SWP member who was on the picket last night, and many of our members have been down there over the last few days helping out, and we will continue to give our support for as long as it goes on.

We are raising the mens' case at all of our meetings countrywide and making sure to publicise their case through our newspaper and e-mail lists.

Solidarity

by Anon Thu May 18, 2006 11:16

A stray SWPer does not count as engagement. The bottom line is that the SWP and IAWM were nowhere to be seen. Including an article in Socialist Worker, putting out press releases and mentioning it at your recruitment meetings won't cut it this time. Bodies are needed and the SWP are missing.

by pat c Thu May 18, 2006 11:18

"peter" does seem sinister as does another guy probably about 20 who was hanging around and encouraging the kids. attacking the kids & their svengalis outside of the cathedral because they are mouthing racist slogans is certainly not a good idea. we could have done that last night, despite the less than perfect turnout, we did have the numbers to clear them away. but maybe twice as many would have turned up at midnight.

but would that have helped the afghanis? might it not have given the state an excuse to pressurise the dean to let them clear the cathedral for health and safety reasons due to the possibility of further public disorder?

certainly defend ourselves if we are attacked, but Patricks Close is not the place for offensive action. Lets collect and share information on those who are organising these youths. Beudh lá eile ann.

the Revolutionary Left need to get their act together. There were members of the SP & SY present at lunchtime yeterday and last night but I am sure that even they could do even more. I only saw 1 SWP present yesterday but there could have been more there at other times. They also could do more. Given the reports of what had happened the night before, the abscence of large numbers of the Revolutionary Left is worrying.

Lets have a big turnout tonight.

by Interested Thu May 18, 2006 12:25

Dave where and when is the demo, and whose organising it?

by pat c Thu May 18, 2006 12:41

The Demo on Saturday is at 2 pm at the Cathedral.

Today vigil at 12.30 pm.

This evening vigil at 6.30 pm. This is important as the racist youths are likely to be there at that time.

by Renton Thu May 18, 2006 12:53

On a fascist website, A few boneheads are discussing the Afghan hunger protest. Several suggestions are made that shit needs to be stirred at the Dublin church. Chances are that it might be only talk but a careful eye is needed. Very worrying to learn an alleged BNP male is hanging around with the social excluded youths from the inner city area. I think that this is only the start of more and more racial tension and exploitation by fascist and racist groups around Ireland. Immigration will be a massive issue at the next general election. And of course one which will create negativity.

Cut the roots of fascism before it grows.

by puzzled - anti war Thu May 18, 2006 13:08

"Of course Fintan and Raymond et al are right to call everyone down to the vigils and if you can atall make it you should go."

Ah, yeah, they have the right alright. Amazing that this even needs to be stated.

by Frankie Thu May 18, 2006 13:33

I am disappointed that this news article does not go far enough into understanding the alternative of the let them stay campaign. Surely, there has to be an alternative to something?

by John Thu May 18, 2006 14:19

Yesterday,
A representative from the UNHCR who met the Afghan asylum seekers, when interviewed by RTE said that Irelands asylum system is 'fair' and that these people should call off their protest.

by Taj Thu May 18, 2006 14:29

Is Afghanistan not a non-refoulement country, and if it is does the UN not request that States such as our own do not send refugees back

by young anarchist Thu May 18, 2006 14:31

A reporter from the Daily Mail was on the radio this morning suggesting the the government and the media simply ignore the men and allow them their right to die. What a load of right wing crap.

No Borders, No Nations.
No one is illegal.
Deport McDowell.

by Mark McNally Thu May 18, 2006 14:41

[ No Borders, No Nations.
No one is illegal.
Deport McDowell ]

Somebody needs to tell this individual what the meaning of our immigration system is, only this time, starting from the beginning. These asylum seekers have no right to act in this way. They can appeal their case, can't they?

Its not like its the end of the world for them. But I would advise that the counter demonstration that took place in response to the ones that were in support of the asylum seekers was not 'racist'. That is an unfair remark to make. If its a democratic society, then were all free to protest.

by Pa Thu May 18, 2006 14:49

This article is a 'call to arms' for the revolutionary left and for republicans. We need to confront this situation before it gets out of hand.

by Markie Mark Thu May 18, 2006 14:52

"the counter demonstration that took place in response to the ones that were in support of the asylum seekers was not 'racist'. That is an unfair remark to make."

Oh I get it - when people shout out racist abuse, they're not ACTUALLY racists, because .... because you say so! Thanks for that Mark, that's cleared everything up just fine!

by MichaelY - iawm Thu May 18, 2006 14:55

Just back from the 12.30 vigil - spent the whole morning outside. A few facts and a few ideas:

1. No sign yet today of the racist individuals/cabal. This doesn't mean they are not likely to show up later - quite a lot of 'discussion' [if you call it that]is going on in a couple of right-wing websites.
2.The 12.30 vigil had about 30 people milling about. No placards. an IAWM leaflet calling for support for the hunger strikers distributed.
3.The 11.00 'Press Conference' re-affirmed the determination of the hunger strikers, and particularly the younger lads, to continue. The most heart warming scene was to watch a young hunger striker come out and talk and kiss with his school girlfriend who was there with a couple of her mates. A few hunger strikers mentioned they're being "corralled" by some social workers and other individuals milling around.
4.All activists we spoke to agree that some sort of co-ordination is necessary - RAR are trying to do their best but.....the 6.30 vigil this afternoon, if it has enough activists present, may be an excellent opportunity. We need to establish direct access with the hunger strikers and break their isolation.
Finally and 5. Indymedia is playing a very important role in keeping all interested informed. Please do not engage and waste your time with people whose whole objective is to divert our attention....let them rant away and the Indymedia collective will see that they are kept under control. And, again, be fair and factual in your criticisms, if you feel they should be made public at this time.

Solidarity with the hunger strikers.

by Mark McNally Thu May 18, 2006 15:00

(Markie),
Where was the racial abuse in that counter demonstration? The people who were in that counter demo were against these asylum seekers using (in simple words) a pressure tactic to sway the Minister into granting them refugee status. Is it necessary to imply racism to every case that fails the asylum system?
No,
there is a clear policy out there that prevents unfounded claims in the application for asylum. Only a fool would say this is racist.

by Starstruck Thu May 18, 2006 15:00

If you took the time to actually go down and speak with these individuals rather than sit on your superior high-horse of awareness,you would discover that yes,their world may indeed be at an end in the event that they are forced to return to Afghanistan.
These are real people,not just economic statistics.
It is both amazing and apaaling that people who have not experienced this kind of hardship even though their ancestors most likely did,can comment in such a crude,uncaring and downright selfish way.
Why are you afraid of these people staying in our country???
Not enough space?-Yeah because Ireland's one crowded metropolis with no open areas...
Not enough jobs?Yes because Irish people are at full employment and we dont hope to cretae any more employment in the future.
Or maybe it's just that you're basically selfish and want to hoarde your wealth and trivial possessions,safe in the knowledge that they aren't under threat from these poor undesirables trying to make a better life for themselves just like our ancestors did when they emigrated over hundreds of years.

And should you wish to see whether the counter-demonstration is racist or not,come on down to St Patrick's Cathederal tonight and listen for yourself.Maybe your definiton of a racist slogan is different to the rest of us.
Also you can explain to the 20 classmates of one of the strikers why it is that he is not good enough to stay in our hallowed land.Their tears obviously show that he is.

by Markie Mark Thu May 18, 2006 15:07

The racial abuse would have been the racial abuse that they were shouting. With their mouths. Using those mouths to form "words", the main form of communication used by human beings.

by Mark McNally Thu May 18, 2006 15:09

(Starstruck)
Don't be a fool. These scary tactics are always used by ultra-left wing protestors. I have no time for the racist gibe. Is this your way of picking things up? And if I am responding to you sharply, then who's thumb did you broose first?

Oh, maybe some proof that these asylum seekers lives are actually in danger if they return to Afghanistan would be appreciated. Still no proof of this.

by Markie Mark Thu May 18, 2006 15:13

Thanks for exposing yourself, Mark. You have repeatedly been told that counter-demonstrators shouted racist abuse, and pretended not to notice. Your rhetoric comes straight out of the sewer. Thanks for letting us know what your real agenda is - it didn't take long to flush you out.

by DD Thu May 18, 2006 15:19

Michael Y, there are direct contact with the strikers and that is RAR and they have people in the cathedral almost the whole time. The hunger strikers have already had different groups attempt to hijack their protest and take control of it from them. They attacked these groups for not having done anything for them until now. The IAWM has not joined any previous protests for the Afghan asylum seekers and they should not attempt to circumvent RAR like the SWP normally try to do.

Mark McNally screaming racist abuse is not a valid counter demo it is incitement to hatred. However these young lads were just local kids with nothing better to do. They were just "buzzin around" as one of them said to me. The kids are not a threat. The older racists who are intentionally trying to stir it up should be paid very close attention and people should ensure that a clear photograph is taken of them because if a supporter is attacked when they are alone late at night it will be easier to identify the culprits.

by MichaelY - iawm Thu May 18, 2006 15:23

The Dpt of Foreign Affairs website: "The security situation in Afghanistan remains serious and the threat high".

Humanights Watch says "Many Afghans are deeply concerned that war criminals retain significant power.....there is ongoing human rights abuses and repression by warlords and local strongment."

Dr. Ramazan Bashardost, an Afghan Government Minister describes the current Afghan Government as "a mafia system" and he asks "Why does the Afghan Government support warlords".

This is the country in which according to our Minister of Injustice "there are a few disturbances" and to which the hunger strikers may be deported.

Incidentally, over the last week,a number of CIA/US Air Force leased aircraft flew from Shannon to Kabul....what were they doing there? Who and what were they transporting. ? It could be they were bringing boxes of western democracy and a few medicines to be used to calm down the egg throwing Afghani yobs who create, according to McD, these 'disturbances'.

by Jonah Thu May 18, 2006 15:39

"2.The 12.30 vigil had about 30 people milling about. No placards. an IAWM leaflet calling for support for the hunger strikers distributed."

Ummm, there were six or seven Sinn Féin people there with placards and a banner, including Cllr Daithí Doolan.

A couple of Socialist Youth people there as well handing out a leaflet about School Students Against Deportations, a broad based mass campaign 'facilitated' by the Socialist Party.

by Corkboyzz - Private Individual Thu May 18, 2006 15:42

I sometimes visit this site, and I have found reading here to be quite interesting about the Afghan hunger strikers. My visits to this site on this occasion were triggered by a photo yesterday in the Cork Examiner/Irish Examiner of a man holding a placard saying something to the effect "deport the Taliban thugs", so I was wondering what you would have to say on the issue, and it is clear that there are elements missing from the mainstream media coverage, particularly the racist issue.

I believe the Gardai and /or elements controlling them secretly consider you guys to be troublemakers, and that is probably why they are under orders to "allow protests", knowing that the BNP will be there as well, protesting against you.

The Gardai et al. can afford to sit back and allow the BNP to do their "dirty work" for them.

And if violence flares, they will make arrests, probabky on both sides.

I humbly (since I am not a regular here) urge you to remember your primary vocation is journalism, not to get involved in riots - even though the other side *are* wrong.

Please avoid conflict on the street at all costs - you will only enable the "powers that be" to say that Indymedia are a crowd of rioters.

I hope I am not pissing anyone off to much by posting these sentiments, but your presence is forming a focal point for the BNP
.
The local youths *will*, IMHO, rally around them because BNP policies justify people's natural selfishness. It will be an uphill battle to "convert" them - too difficult in an environment that the Gardai really should be managing better, it seems.

Can I suggest that your activists just bypass the Cathedral, and perhaps focus on publicising Indymedia more? You will still be doing something then - without giving the BNP any fuel, and you can "give the finger" the "Harvey Smith" signal to those who would like to see people here in court and labeled as troublemakers. You are, after all, supposed to be journalists, not demonstrators.

Hope this makes sense. :)

PS: Someone from Queen's University had a really good letter on the issue in the Irish Examiner today.

by immortal terrier Thu May 18, 2006 15:44

... with a lot of infuriatingly ignorant comments:

http://scripts.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/regularvo...eno=1

and some racist nuts on boards.ie, as well as some very weak arguments in support of the hunger strikers:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054931...ge=30

Choice quote from the latter thread:

"Every Nigerian that has entered Ireland has been to rip it off, the same for Romanians and for most other eastern europeans and Asians.... I propose Prison camps for them no more no less,keep them away from society..."

by Wha? Thu May 18, 2006 15:49

You do seem a little bit confused about the difference between Indymedia and the protestors. Indymedia are not the organisers of these protests.

by ED - UCDSU Thu May 18, 2006 15:51

We are in the middle of exams at the moment but hopefully we will be there tonight in some capacity.

keep up the good work

by immortal terrier Thu May 18, 2006 15:52

I think you've missed the point mate. There is no group of people who are Indymedia. By posting your comment you are as much a part of it as anyone else. We're not journalists. The point of the original indymedias was for participants in mass actions to get their stories covered, by publishing themselves. The writer of the original piece is a seasoned left-wing and anti-war activist, not a journo.

Not trying to bite your head off. Your contribution to Indymedia is welcome. If you read here often you should partake in the debates that occur. The whole point is that everyone should have their say...

by Ciarán Cuffe - Green Party Thu May 18, 2006 18:04

Here's the transcript from Joe Costello TD, Dr. Gerry Cowley TD, Aenghus O Snodaigh TD, Ciarán Cuffe TD and Minsiter McDowell's reply:

Adjournment Debate 17 May 2006

Mr. Costello: I wish to raise the need for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to take urgent measures to resolve the hunger strike by 41 Afghans in St. Patrick's Cathedral.
The Minister and the Government should pro-actively seek to resolve the hunger strike by the 41 Afghan men in the cathedral. To do that, there must be communication and engagement. The decision by the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees to approach the Department is both welcome and significant. While the Minister may not be prepared to negotiate directly with the hunger strikers, he should be prepared to accept the offer and good offices of the UNHCR in seeking a resolution to the hunger and thirst strike. I am glad he has availed of the office's services.
The hunger strike is now in its fourth day in St. Patrick's Cathedral. Eight of the hunger strikers are minors, some of whom are unaccompanied and have been in the care of the HSE for up to two years and more. A number of them have been taken to hospital, including three today, one with a suspected heart attack. The human body deteriorates rapidly without food and water.
Dean Robert McCartney, Canon Pierpoint and their staff at the cathedral have handled the hunger strikers with great consideration and sympathy, providing sanctuary in the age-old tradition of the Christian churches. The situation, however, is totally unsatisfactory and worsening rapidly. I was there until 8.25 p.m. and my colleague, Deputy Michael Higgins, has been down a number of times and we have urged them to end the hunger and thirst strike.
There are avenues that can be pursued. A window of opportunity exists because none of them have been served with deportation orders and that offers room for flexibility. The men are not attacking the Minister's officials or saying the process is wrong; they are concerned that it does not take into consideration the needs of Afghan people in their situation.

21:20
17 May 2006
Text:
[Mr. Costello]:
As a result, their applications are refused and they have no choice but to engage private legal representation and engage in judicial proceedings in the High Court because the process has not been properly dealt with. However, they have no money to do this.
This case has brought certain issues into the open which the Minister has scope to deal with if negotiations between him and the UNHCR are maintained. Having set the process in motion with the UNHCR, which unfortunately has not answered any questions, the Minister must open up the scope of the discussions and negotiations and allow these men's direct concerns to be articulated. There is scope for a solution but communication must be maintained. The Minister and his Government must be willing to seek and ensure that a solution is found.
Lives, including those of minors and those in the care of the State, are at stake. As far as I can gather, the HSE has not received the resources necessary to deal properly with some of these young people. A total of 20% of those on hunger strike, some of whom have been on thirst strike for four days, are minors. The Minister should also take into consideration these aspects of the case.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh: I commend the clergymen, Residents Against Racism and the Dublin fire brigade for the excellent work they have carried out over the four days to ensure that the men involved in this protest are looked after as much as possible. Over 40 men and teenagers are engaged in this protest. They are tired, some are very ill and some of them have, regretfully, resigned themselves to their fate. Nobody undertakes a hunger strike lightly, much less sticks with it as long as these men have done, unless he or she is convinced of the correctness and justice of the case.
This protest was brought about by the failure of the asylum system in Ireland to take cognisance of these men's case, the lack of compassion in the system, the prejudicial assumption of illegality against applicants, the blind adherence to the Fortress Europe doctrine and the failure to introduce complementary protections for individuals who fall outside the narrow convention criteria for refugee status but who may still be in grave danger should they be forced to return to their country of origin.
I call on the Minister to declare Afghanistan an unsafe destination, as the Ministers for Foreign Affairs and Defence have done by sending peacekeeping forces there. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform should also declare that nobody who fails his draconian asylum process will be returned to a war zone or an unsafe country. I doubt if Afghanistan makes the dubious EU white list of safe countries. The Minister should either meet the men or send an official from his Department to meet them. They are in his constituency, their case should be listened to and they should be granted the right to remain until, at very least, the ongoing war in Afghanistan ends.

Dr. Cowley: I am grateful for the opportunity to raise this very important matter. I welcome the intervention today by the UNHCR and ask the Minister to undertake an urgent review of the entire asylum process. I visited St. Patrick's Cathedral yesterday to discover why 44 Afghans were on hunger and thirst strike. These men must be assured that the asylum process will be fully transparent so that they know exactly what is going on at all times. They also need to be reassured that a decision has not already been made to deport the group en masse and that individual cases will be given proper consideration. They also need a translator who has no difficulty with the English language.
I was horrified to discover boys, some as young as 15, pupils at Terenure College in Dublin, who were on hunger and thirst strike. I visited them with Deputy Joe Higgins and we implored them to begin drinking again. They did so while we were there because they had received news that their representatives would meet Department officials. I understand that, unfortunately, some of them have resumed their thirst strike, which I very much regret.
The men were very upset that the system did not display the transparency they expected and hoped for. They were given no explanation as to why certain decisions were being made. Someone who had been guaranteed a response within three weeks would receive it one year later. They experienced difficulties with the Department translators who did not appear to have a full knowledge of English. These difficulties are compounding the situation in which they find themselves.
They deserve a fair hearing. I saw scars resulting from abuse on some of them. Space must be created to ensure that dialogue and justice can be achieved and seen to be achieved by the Irish people. This country prides itself on its compassion and I acknowledge the compassion shown by the courageous churchmen who, although they do not approve of the hunger strike, are treating the men with compassion; Dr. Austin O'Carroll; paramedics; ambulance staff who have tended to them; and the solidarity groups who are with them.
Most of all, I ask the Minister to extend the same humanitarian concern to these men that the Taoiseach asked to be extended to Irish people without proper documentation in the US. I hope the Minister acts in this regard. This problem can be easily resolved.

Mr. Cuffe: I compliment all those who have given assistance to the men and children in St. Patrick's Cathedral. I have concerns about the Refugee Appeals Tribunal and the men, whom I call upon to give up their hunger strike. I call on the Minister to do what he can either to meet with these men or facilitate a further meeting between them or their representatives and his Department.
My concerns about the Refugee Appeals Tribunal, which I have previously raised, still remain. The Minister appoints the members of the tribunal, there is no independent selection or interview and I have heard that at least one member has never granted leave to remain to any individual with whose case he has dealt. I do not know if the latter assertion is true but I do know that the process is at variance with international norms.
I make a direct appeal to the men and children to give up their hunger strike. I want them to go through the full legal process which remains available to them. It is crucial that they avail of this process and do not turn away from the agencies offering help.
I call on the Minister either to meet the men or facilitate a process of discussion with them. I am heartened by the fact that some meetings have taken place to date but there are real concerns about the process. Four out of every five applicants from Afghanistan have been refused. There are concerns about delays since some of the men have been waiting for decisions for many years, concerns that their stories are not being listened by those they meet in the Refugee Appeals Tribunal and very simple concerns about translation and their inability to make themselves clear. The desperate measures they have taken are a reflection of the desperate situation which exists in the system, which needs radical reform. It does not simply concern the problems of Afghanistan; it also concerns the problems of the Refugee Appeals Tribunal. I ask the Minister to assess carefully any application made to him under section 3 of the Immigration Act 1999.

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): On Sunday, 14 May 2006, 34 individuals claiming to be Afghan nationals entered St. Patrick's Cathedral in Dublin and commenced a hunger strike, which they stated would not end until they were granted asylum or leave to remain in Ireland. There are approximately 40 such persons in the cathedral at the present time. No request has been received from the dean or chaplain of the cathedral for any form of State intervention to remove them. It is not true to suggest, as has been suggested in the House this evening, that some form of sanctuary has been offered or afforded to them.
I am advised that in respect of the individuals concerned, one person made an asylum application in late 2003, 18 people made asylum applications in 2004, 17 people made asylum applications in 2005 and four applications were made this year, one as recently as late March. Based on the information available, the Garda National Immigration Bureau believes that one individual in the cathedral may have been awarded refugee status and that one person may have been awarded leave to remain.
21:30
17 May 2006
Text:
[Mr. McDowell]
As the majority of the cases in question are either in the asylum or leave to remain process, I am advised that on the basis of the names available to my Department at this stage, no individual has been issued with a deportation order.
It is important that I preface my remarks by pointing out that it has been the policy of successive Ministers for Justice, Equality and Law Reform not to comment on individual applications or groups of asylum claims from particular nationalities. That said, there are two fundamental principles underlying the asylum process. First, when asylum seekers come here and seek our protection, their cases are fairly and independently examined. Second, a deportation process after a person's case has been dealt with fairly and subject to the relevant statutory safeguards is central to the proper running of any immigration and asylum system.
Therefore, the task for the independent refugee determination agencies in the case of each individual asylum seeker is to determine whether, following investigation, he or she is deemed to fall within the terms of the refugee definition in the Refugee Act 1996 on the basis of all the information gleaned. As Deputies are aware, two independent statutory offices consider applications or appeals for refugee status, namely, the Office of the Refugee Applications Commissioner, known as ORAC, and the Refugee Appeals Tribunal, known as the RAT. The United Nations High Commission for Refugees is given full access to the refugee determination process and can examine any case at any time to ensure that fair procedures and our Geneva Convention obligations are complied with.
The asylum process in place in the State is comprehensive and compares well to many other countries, particularly our EU partners. This fact was recently acknowledged by a former UNHCR representative to Ireland who is quoted as stating that Ireland is now a model for the new member states of the European Union and that we now have "a system which in many respects is one of the best in Europe".
Every asylum application is considered on its merits. Not only is the case tabled by the applicant considered, but a wide variety of sources are also consulted by ORAC and the RAT before making a recommendation, including information from organisations such as the UNHCR, Amnesty International, other EU member states and media and Internet sources. The assessment carried out includes determining whether an applicant has a well-founded fear of persecution, whether the persecution is related to a Geneva Convention reason, whether the applicant is unable or unwilling to return to his or her own country, what internal protection alternative, if any, might be available within that country and credibility issues, which it is extremely important to consider.
Every asylum applicant is guaranteed a right of appeal to a statutorily independent and separate body, the RAT. Every asylum applicant is also guaranteed access to legal assistance provided by the Refugee Legal Service and to interpretation services. Therefore, I find it difficult to accept the suggestion that money is an issue for these asylum seekers. There is a legal service that provides assistance to all persons with stateable cases.

Mr. Costello: It is an issue.

Mr. McDowell: Under the provisions of section 17(1) of the Refugee Act 1996, the final decision in respect of an asylum application is a matter for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform based on the recommendation of the Commissioner or the decision of the tribunal. However, under the legislation scheme, the Minister is obliged except in exceptional circumstances to accept a recommendation that a person should be given refugee status.
Regarding the processing of claims from unaccompanied minors for asylum, strong safeguards are in place, including assistance from a representative of the Health Service Executive in each case and comprehensive access to the Refugee Legal Service. Comprehensive training is provided to specialist case workers who deal with unaccompanied minors in ORAC and members of the RAT. This training, in conjunction with the training in the asylum process, has been provided in co-operation and consultation with the UNHCR.
In the course of contributions, reference has been made to the presence of minors among the group in question. While some people refer to them as children, they seem to be between the ages of 16 years and 18 years.

Mr. M. Higgins: Or 15 years.

Mr. McDowell: Whether it is permissible or appropriate for an unaccompanied minor to be allowed by adults to participate in a hunger strike or threaten self-harm as part of an organised protest is a matter not merely for those adults but also the HSE, which must form a judgment in the interests of that minor and take whatever action is appropriate to protect the minor. I wish coldly and rationally to emphasise this point.

Mr. Costello: The HSE is doing that. It is in the cathedral.

Mr. McDowell: We must consider the minors' interests separately. No adult of any kind or from anywhere has the right to organise a protest in which self-harm or hunger striking is encouraged on the part of a child. There is no walking away from this. We will not be manipulated by people who are attempting to exploit minors and put them in the way of danger.

Mr. Costello: The Minister should not blame the HSE.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Order.

Mr. McDowell: I am not blaming the HSE in the slightest. I have full confidence that the HSE will take every step in accordance with its statutory duty to protect minors. Others, particularly support groups, should see the wood from the trees. No group of adults or political lobby has the right to take children or minors and put them in the way of self-harm. It is fundamentally wrong and must be condemned out of hand.
Asylum applicants from Afghanistan amounted to 24 people in 2003, 106 in 2004, 142 in 2005 and 40 to the end of April of this year. After a fair and comprehensive determination process at first instance in ORAC, there were 30 grant applications, which is more than 10%, in the period 2003-06 to date. This compares to 232 refusals during the same period. At appeal stage in the RAT, the number of Afghan refugees granted status was 23 in the same period. In total, there were 53 grant applications, an undeniably high recognition rate. The number refused status at appeal was 76 during the same period. It is emphatically not the case that anyone who travelled from Afghanistan to Ireland by whatever means - there are no direct flights - can demand to remain in Ireland simply by pointing to the disturbed or dangerous conditions that may obtain in parts of that country. If that were the case, the State would be obliged to accommodate any person claiming to be an Afghan.
In accordance with section 3 of the Immigration Act 1999, as amended, a person who has failed the asylum process and been refused refugee status in the State is entitled to make representations to the Minister within 15 working days setting out reasons as to why he or she should not be deported, voluntarily leave the State or consent to deportation. This is colloquially referred to as the humanitarian leave to remain phase.
Following consideration of each case, a decision is taken on whether to deport or grant temporary leave to remain. Section 3(6) of the Act requires the Minister to consider 11 factors, including representations received by or on behalf of the person, family and domestic circumstances, humanitarian considerations etc. The safety of returning a person, or refoulement as it is referred to, is fully considered in every case when deciding whether to make a deportation order. This means that a person shall not be expelled from the State or returned in any manner whatsoever to a state where, in the opinion of the Minister, the life or freedom of that person would be threatened on account of his or her race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform uses extensive country of origin information drawn from different independent sources, including the UNHCR, in evaluating the safety of making returns to third countries. I am satisfied that the procedures followed in all cases ensure that all asylum requests are considered in a comprehensive and fair manner.
At the request of the individuals concerned, a meeting was held with senior officials of my Department on Tuesday afternoon at the headquarters of the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service. The meeting was attended by some of the persons in the cathedral, representatives of the Church of Ireland and the chairperson of the Afghan Social Cultural Centre and the Afghan Society of Ireland. Absolutely no negotiations took place at this meeting. It presented an opportunity for the individuals in question to communicate their issues and concerns to the Department.

21:40
17 May 2006
Text:
[Mr. McDowell]
At the meeting my officials, while clarifying that they were not in a position to speak about individual cases, took the opportunity to outline the comprehensive statutory framework and procedures governing the asylum and leave to remain process, which I have just explained to this House yet again. It was also pointed out at the meeting that the Government is not in a position to concede to demands from the protestors with regard to the awarding of residency status in this State. No decision will be taken, except in the context of the normal statutory framework governing the asylum and leave to remain process.
It was further pointed out that concessions of the sort demanded would have major negative consequences for the asylum process. At times there can be over 100 nationalities in our asylum system and to concede to such group demands from the protestors would have inevitable negative consequences for the entire refugee determination process. There is no doubt that it would also act as a pull factor in terms of a major increase in asylum applicants on the basis of a perception that they would benefit from similar action. I am not going down that road and the Belgian experience is warning enough for me and the Government of the consequences of making bad decisions in the face of such tactics.
The UNHCR representative in Ireland offered to meet a representative group of the protestors this evening. That meeting has taken place and I am grateful to the representative for the intervention.
I reiterate what the Taoiseach said in this House yesterday, that we simply cannot operate our asylum and leave to remain process on the basis of caving in to threats of hunger strikes or the occupation of historical buildings. I have, in the past, been confronted with threats of hunger strike by people who have sewn their mouths shut to demonstrate their determination. I have been confronted with threats of suicide, self-harm and so forth. It has been our invariable practice to refuse to be influenced by such tactics. No democratic society can do business on that basis and the Irish people would not tolerate us capitulating in such a fashion.

The Dáil adjourned at 9.45 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 18 May 2006.

by Sp member - Personal Capacity Thu May 18, 2006 18:34

I know that the Socialist Party full-time workers and our activists up in DUblin have been campaigning on this very eneretically for days, just cause one vigil was missed is not the end of the world. Putting posters outside every school, leafletting schools, talking in schools (i know the socialist youth stuff more so) etc. People have been putting in 17 hour days between all the work and other unnavoidable work. A Socialist Youth national meeting was postponed in order to deal with this. Original authosr is just attempting to whip up anti-socialist party etc feelings, but the truth is we have have been building for the protests, which is more imporntant in my view than just getting along to every vigil. My understanding of it is that this satruday's protest is a key one, thats the one we have been building for as well as some of the daily ones.

I don't know about other organisations, but i know criticism of SP and SY over this issue is unfounded.

by Anon Thu May 18, 2006 18:38

Why should Ireland be made to pay the price.Let the US/UK warmongers take them in, since they made a mess of Afghanistan to start with, firstly by propping up the taliban and latterly by bombing it into oblivion.I think the word racist is being used a little too liberally here.Racism is an ideological belief in racial supremacy not to be confused with advocating the right of nations to control their borders.If these guys were in Australia they would have been locked up as soon as they landed.

by J Thu May 18, 2006 18:42

Sorry anon, but apart from anything else- for example- immigration controls are inherently racist- your forgetting the use of Irleand as a Military base by the US and Irish government backing and facilitation of both Afghan and Iraq war. so even that makes us responsible. It is proper to call immigration controls and some of the comments on here what they are- racist.
Support the hunger strikers- no to immigration controls- no deportations.

by pat c Thu May 18, 2006 18:42

"Original authosr is just attempting to whip up anti-socialist party etc feelings,"

That is not the case. Fintan is just expressing his annoyance at the fact that the Revolutionary Left were found wanting when the vigil was under threat. I acknowledge that the SP & SY have put an emormous amount of work into supporting this protest. Please be prepared to accept criticism that wasnt an anti SP diatribe. The SWP have a lot more explaining to do.

by pat c Thu May 18, 2006 18:53

I'm heading down to St Pats in a short while. Are you? To notice how long I am on the computer you must be on it as well. I dont want to start a pissing contest but I was at the Cathedral for 4 hours yesterday and also participated in the Shell To Sea protest. What were you up to?

by anon Thu May 18, 2006 19:02

Eight of the hunger strikers are minors, some of whom are unaccompanied and have been in the care of the HSE for up to two years and more.

As a result, their applications are refused and they have no choice but to engage private legal representation and engage in judicial proceedings in the High Court because the process has not been properly dealt with.However, they have no money to do this.

They also need to be reassured that a decision has not already been made to deport the group en masse and that individual cases will be given proper consideration.

They were given no explanation as to why certain decisions were being made. Someone who had been guaranteed a response within three weeks would receive it one year later. They experienced difficulties with the Department translators who did not appear to have a full knowledge of English.

Four out of every five applicants from Afghanistan have been refused.

-

I am advised that in respect of the individuals concerned, one person made an asylum application in late 2003, 18 people made asylum applications in 2004, 17 people made asylum applications in 2005 and four applications were made this year, one as recently as late March. Based on the information available, the Garda National Immigration Bureau believes that one individual in the cathedral may have been awarded refugee status and that one person may have been awarded leave to remain.

While some people refer to them as children, they seem to be between the ages of 16 years and 18 years.We must consider the minors' interests separately. No adult of any kind or from anywhere has the right to organise a protest in which self-harm or hunger striking is encouraged on the part of a child

Asylum applicants from Afghanistan amounted to 24 people in 2003, 106 in 2004, 142 in 2005 and 40 to the end of April of this year. After a fair and comprehensive determination process at first instance in ORAC, there were 30 grant applications, which is more than 10%, in the period 2003-06 to date. This compares to 232 refusals during the same period. At appeal stage in the RAT, the number of Afghan refugees granted status was 23 in the same period. In total, there were 53 grant applications, an undeniably high recognition rate. The number refused status at appeal was 76 during the same period.

If that were the case, the State would be obliged to accommodate any person claiming to be an Afghan.?

by badman Thu May 18, 2006 19:03

Racism is an ideological belief in racial supremacy

No, it's not. Racism is simply judging individuals on the basis of their ethnic or cultural background, rather than as individuals.

Since Hitler very few racists put forward a supremacist line - even though it is often implicit in their arguments. South African apartheid was based on an idea of "separate but equal" peoples and was obviously racist in a similar manner to many of the anti-immigrant arguments today. Assuming that human populations can be divided up into a number of nations with more or less coherent cultures is wrong. Arguing that such a division should be forcibly maintained in a world where wealth is so unevenly distributed and continues to flow from poor to rich amounts to an argument for a racial division of wealth and power.

by anon Thu May 18, 2006 19:20

McDowell I have, in the past, been confronted with threats of hunger strike by people who have sewn their mouths shut to demonstrate their determination. I have been confronted with threats of suicide, self-harm and so forth. It has been our invariable practice to refuse to be influenced by such tactics. No democratic society can do business on that basis and the Irish people would not tolerate us capitulating in such a fashion.

The Dáil on Thursday, 18 May 2006.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=...13927 shifted
The authorities have been operating an air and sea service for transfers and a group of 14 who were sent back to the UK at Christmas included an Iranian (Enemies No1) who had earlier stitched his lips together in a protest after his application had been turned down.

His asylum application had already been processed by the British authorities who rejected it as bogus. He then travelled here and stayed in a hostel in Tramore, Co Waterford.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=...13401 snatched
http://www.waterford-news.ie/news/story.asp?j=20279 jailed

by Spinning Quickly Thu May 18, 2006 19:30

Anon is being disingenous when claiming that racism only describes racial supremacy - it also describes racial segregation. (Does the term "Apartheid" ring a bell?)

I overheard part of a radio discussion the other night where that idiotic windbag Ainé Ní Chonaill not only showed her dislike of those on the hunger strike, but her ignorance of the situation in Afghanistan. (I don't know what station it was on - it was in my local Spar.)

by liz Thu May 18, 2006 19:46

while i agree that the group of teenagers outside pat's cathedral were really annoying and offensive in what they yelled - foreigners out , bring some mcdonalds food in to them etc etc. i eventually got talking to some of them around 7pm and it was very enlightening. they all yelled for a while but it turned into a debate.
one lad in particular was very willing to discuss his opinions. his problem is not being able to get a job and his mother being left on a hospital trolley for hours. another kid's sister can't get a flat for herself and her baby. several of them can't even find work in a fast food place. the problem is that these kids believe that asylum seekers get services they don't get , hospital beds, jobs, houses and take their jobs. they see an ambulance outside the cathedral and all the publicity the hunger strikers are getting and no-one pays them any attention or asks them their opinion on anything. (understandably based on how they're behaving but they're looking for attention.)
they're racist but i don't think most of them are racists in any deep-rooted irreversible way. at least not yet . (and they're yelling publicly what nice middle class people are saying privately. how many of us have heard work colleagues say similar things?).we just have to get to them before the rightwingers do.
i told them they're blaming the wrong people. it's the govt. that won't provide services. in terms of jobs we have people leaving school who can't fill in an application form. it's easier to believe you can't get a job because of immigrants than realize it's cos you don't have the education-for loads of possible reasons like lack of early intervention, family problems ... the thing is their views are widely shared as can be seen from radio and online messages that are rabidly anti-immigrant. people are getting no accurate information about asylum seekers and migrant workers from the government, media or anybody else. rather than taking the moral high ground we could recognise that this is all these kids hear at home and this might be the first time they've even talked to anybody who disagrees with them.the only way they'll ever stop blaming immigrants is if they get the resources they need and understand who it is who's screwing them over and what they can do about it.there's ways we can practically help with that, informal popular education rather than propaganda. they're trying to be macho because they're powerless and are bolstering themselves. these are some of the working class kids people are always going on about. are we going to try to engage with them?

by OTR Thu May 18, 2006 21:01

People should bear in mind that shouting the odds is a local dialect in the south city area, whose population has been totally abandoned, but whose territory is now at the forefront of gentrification. The city has been transformed but the community has been left with its social problems untouched, remaining an area with a huge drugs and health crisis, shitty education, little prospect of social mobility, problems with the police and poor social amenities. Violence is an everyday currency of life in the neighbourhood. COCAD anyone?

Amidst economic growth that has transformed the city, people have been literally turned into strangers in their own land, and some grip to a narrow sense of identity to stay afloat. But you don't need to be an afghan migrant to get on the wrong side of that sense of belonging, as middle class types regularly discover taking thumps on Cork St (or the kids from Ormonde flats for that matter!). Inflaming rows with local people will only harden that sense of invasion, and in the last analysis it will not be supporters of the Hunger Strike who will bear the brunt of the consequences.

While I agree with Liz that people need to talk with rather than shout at those giving the protest lip, what is really required is to engage with the area in a more sustained way. Much of the radical left spends too much time engaging with the power on an ideological level, or focussing on issues far away, adrift from the communities at the coal face, or picking up and dropping struggles following fashion. My experience in the area is that if you're doing something that the locals recognise as useful and helpful, they will support and 'cover' you. As someone above mentioned, many of these kids parents probably voted for O'Snodaigh, not only for the fact that this is an area with a strong republican/nationalist culture, but also because SF are rooted locally and canvas people door-to-door to identify what their problems are. Then they return and follow up. This is not to celebrate all things Shinner, but it's the only way to build a trust capable of influencing the political atmosphere of the district.

by Mc Grazzy Thu May 18, 2006 21:13

It is all very well for middle class liberals to wave the finger,but did it occur to them that these kids are in all probability threatened by the expanding population.A recent ESRI report suggested that the astronomical prices of houses (among other things) is largely due to the influx.I am certainly not advocating a closed door and I do celebrate cultural diversity in Ireland but this "all in" policy being advocated is absolute twaddle. It will ensure a further scarcity of resources and fuel further social problems down the line which will give the racists plenty of leverage.
It is my inherit belief that our asylum process is comparatively liberal.Good for them that they landed here and not in countries were the term "application" is a rarety and "appeal" is unheard of.The ordinary people of this country have it hard enough with traffic, house prices, waiting lists without having to pay for the consequences of every genocide and civil war the world over.

by Indy Fan Thu May 18, 2006 21:34

People should realise that Indymedia is not a bulletin board for excercising a war of words over the keyboard.

by Sean - T.I.T S.U Thu May 18, 2006 21:39

We are in the process of doing our exams also but we won't be going to that demo. We have better things to be doing with our lives rather than engaging in one demonstration versus another demonstration. What we effectively have here are two sides having a go at each other.

by Pete Thu May 18, 2006 22:24

Someone suggests above that: "A recent ESRI report suggested that the astronomical prices of houses (among other things) is largely due to the influx."
Sorry but what else would you expect from the ERSI.
House price rises have been due largely to a tiny number of rich individuals controlling huge land banks. The housing crisis is due to the fact that there have been little or no public houses been built in this country in 20-25 years. Long before we had a change in migration patterns the housing list stood at around 40,000 people. so that statement is factually incorrect and is attempting to excuse racism due to a lie.
Build the demo for saturday- 2pm @ the Cathedral
Support the Hunger strikers.

by GPJ Thu May 18, 2006 23:01

Good post Pete.

no one should ignore the relation betweeen the demands of the hunger strikers and the anger felt by the "foreigners out" group, both immigrants and working class youth have been betrayed and isolated by this government.

I would ask that the supporters of the rights of these asylum seekers to stay in Ireland to also show their support for the legitimate rights of the working class to decent housing, jobs and control over their communities.

The idiotic and knee jerking anti-immigration lobby have no solutions to the problems of working class people in Ireland. National socialism has always been a weapon of the ruling class, racism is a tool of the oppressor.

Let all of us who can see the legitimate claims for these people to stay here, also go into these working class communities and demand equal rights for housing, jobs and empowerment.

An island of equals.

by Dean Thu May 18, 2006 23:30

How can supporting our community be something that can be achieved by supporting failed asylum seekers? That is a tool of the anti-deportationists which is easily manipulating.

by GPJ Thu May 18, 2006 23:56

Our Community...needs to wake up to the fact that the enemy to growth, community control of investment and social cohesion is not those immigrants or asylum seekers who come to live amongst us. Can you see a correlation in spending millions of euros deporting some one to a country where they are unsafe, from a community where there is no decent jobs or housing for natives..its the same people doing the maths...who can stay...who gets a decent house..who gets that low paid job..who gets sacked...

I do believe that you cannot be a bleeding heart liberal over this issue of deportation, while ignoring the demands of our community..however...those same snoops trolling the country looking for "illegals" would be better paid looking out for the business person who stole our ESF money, or the landlord charging over the odds on shit accomadation or the rapist cop... who all live in our community..

...let the anti-immigration lobby pick on some targets which when targeted will change irish society

..you can start deporting all the immigrants tomorrow, make Ireland a coloured free zone, Dublin can be eastern european cleansed in a year..

.the scabs and exploiters will still be there. in our community..l

by Old Red - RAR/AFA Fri May 19, 2006 00:30

We must never forget we were once, hungry, we were once thirsty. We must support these people Ireland is the worlds richest country, they need our help. The BNP must not be allowed to win.

by A.P. Fri May 19, 2006 09:33

While I sympathise with the Afghans and fully support their right to protest, I'm not too crazy about their use of the hunger strike. It smacks of emotional blackmail. It is an age old tradition in this country, but times change. Also, seeing as their deportation is not final, I think they're jumping the gun a bit by seeking sanctuary. How are they getting on in Belgium does anyone know?

by soundmigratrion Fri May 19, 2006 09:44

On the radio at 8.30am the newsreader announced that the gards had surrounded the church and were not allowing people in or out. There was speculation that they were going to remove people- possibly only the youngesters.

by Mc Grazzy Fri May 19, 2006 16:22

I am a former activist who threw my hands up in despair long ago.Until I am satisfied that the government will provide adequate social housing etc I will never support an "all in" policy.The former must come before the latter, otherwise working class communities WILL have to compete with immigrants for social housing, jobs etc and racism will escalate like never before.Look at the race riots in Britain for Gods sake - hardly confined to the leaf lined West End suburbs.

by Joe Black Fri May 19, 2006 16:32

The problem with this 'logic' is that it is hardly as if the government provided 'adequete' resources before the arrival of a few tens of thousands of asylum seekers and then somehow removed them as a result of the asylum seekers arrival. You can wait till the cows come home and the gov won't provide these adequete resources, with or without the presence of asylum seekers.

All your requirement does is play into the government hands by insisting on a division and competition between those most in need. Rather than fighting the government you somehow see a solution in terms of fighting each other.

Aside from all that if by 'race riots in Britain' you mean the stuff in the midlands then your not talking any sense. This involved not asylum seekers but rather British born people of Asian extraction fed up with marginalisation because of their origin. And the very seperation (first us and then them) you seem to applaud far from being a solution was the major factor for why there was trouble in the first place. Bradford in particular is one of the few places where 'white' and asian working class people have been kept segregated from each other - which is why it was so fertile for the BNP lunacy and the reaction that followed.

In other words if your genuine (and you may not be but lets assume you are) your policy can only hurt your own cause in both the short and long terms. If you reckon McDowell is really fighting for resources for the 'white' poor of Dublin you really haven't been paying attention to him.

by GPJ Fri May 19, 2006 16:44

Your politics on this issue are naive at the best..divisive at the worst.

Race riots in Britain : firstly 90% of immigrants to Britain were invited to do the jobs that white people did not want to do. Brixton, St Pauls etc..1981 were started by Black people's reaction to what they considered racist police behaviour...recent riots in Bradford were started by police inaction to racist incidents..nowhere have riots been started by people who felt threatened by the immigrant population's competition with native people.

McGrazzy your faulty logic is dangerous because it creates a myth that immigrants compete for work. Unemployment destroyed working class communities in Ireland, when there were small numbers of immigrants in our country. Who was to blame then for the lack of work? In every society where immigrants come in, the economy is bolstered.

Lets use the example of Britain, economically immigrants pay more taxes than they take from its economy...where does your arguement stand on those facts?

McGrazzy be honest mate, you don't like a bit of colour in your neighbourhood..be open with your prejudices. don't hide behind economic lies and racist assumptions.

I challenge the anti-immigration lobby to target the real enemies to the working class communities in Ireland..as has been said earlier who creates the competition for scant resources in working class communities, who owns the housing, who does not create the jobs...not immigrants..by blaing immigrants for the economc problems in Ireland..you are helping the ruling elite who control the economic system to continue their unchallenged robbery of our taxes.

A 32 County Irish Workers' Republic which cherishes all children of the Republic equally..no place for racist myths, economic hypocrisy or class division.

by Mc Grazzy Fri May 19, 2006 17:19

I confer with much of what you say but you misunderstand me.You yourself acknowledge that the government will not listen to the call for more much needed resources, therefore the resources that are supplied even before the arrival of immigrants are put under strain by an expanding population, it is simple economics- supply and demand my man, supply and demand.
I am not suggesting that the fight against government should stop, but short of storming the Dail and taking power ourselves I do not believe (just as you dont) they will ever listen.The fight against racism is made all the more difficult.The problem with your breed of socialism is that you presume the working classes are getting geared up for education in international economics, global forces and a read of the communist manifesto and not spending their dole in the bars and bookies aware that they might have to wait a bit longer in the line for that council flat.The Irish working classes must be empowered and liberated themselves before they can accomadate others.
I stand corrected on the race riots in Britain, but even you must acknowledge that the BNP preyed on fears that were already there, not always without cause and no one can assure us that in years to come some young Irish born Muslim, whose family have been given a haven, a house and an income here will throw it back in our faces by blowing himself up out of some stupid sentimental attempt to re connect himself with a diluted culture.
I have every sympathy with these guys and believe they have a strong case for asylum (how is it actually decided?) but the best way they can demonstrate that they want to become citizens is exercising that citizenship and adhering to our laws, which includes the asylum process.

by Mick Butler Fri May 19, 2006 17:42

BLACKS definitive LAW DICTIONARY defines "Sancutary" as : " 1. A safe place, esp. where legal process cannot be executed; asylum." and "2. A holy area of a religious building; esp the area in a church where the main altar is located".

So what are the cops doing in the church ??? will anyone invoke this, it has the force of law, at least get it "on the record" on behalf of the men. The state can cite "safety" for the minors but removing adults from a place of worship ?. Any decent Catholics thinking of staging a hunger strike in support?? in an RC church, preferably Foxrock, Blackrock etc ??????

by GPJ Fri May 19, 2006 17:43

The problem with your brand of politics is that it stinks of xenophobia and racism. ..working class communities do not need your patronising analysis of their activities. As for your view of irish born Muslims..sectarian nonesense.

by pat c Fri May 19, 2006 18:22

"no one can assure us that in years to come some young Irish born Muslim, whose family have been given a haven, a house and an income here will throw it back in our faces by blowing himself up out of some stupid sentimental attempt to re connect himself with a diluted culture."

and no one can assure us that in years to come some young Irish born catholic will not go to britain and blow himself up in some sentimental attempt to continue the war against the blood enemy.

by Kiddo Fri May 19, 2006 19:57

Well "pat c", that has yet to be seen

by sovietpop Fri May 19, 2006 21:49

This is the picture of the man who has attended the vigil each night, bringing different people with him to taunt the demonstraters.

This man was organising racist chants at every vigil

by sovietpop Fri May 19, 2006 22:12

As I arrived at St Patricks this afternoon an ambulance was leaving the church. The man in blue below shouted 'I hope they are dead' and he and his friend laughed. They spent the afternoon with the first man pictured above.

Man in the blue shouted "I hope the are dead" at ambulance

by ob Sat May 20, 2006 00:34

i was down there today and quite shocked at the racist chanting, and provacateurs wandering quite freely among the crowd, while black hoodie patch-wearing anarchos chatted and basically did nothing.

whats the story? bundling justin barrett off the stage in a southside univertsity is easy enough... but when confronted with a load of working class local heads in the inner city being egged on by a possible bnp'er, there's a step back? the talk of bash the fash is all mouth?

what is going to happen tomorrow if these guys turn up as promised with more people?

by AFA/RAR Sat May 20, 2006 00:42

I was there this evening, a group of working class anarchists, including some from AFA told some of the racists to leave, many continued to shout frightening and racist slogans slogans as they did so. The fact they did, shows our approach is the correct one.

No platform for Nazis.

by - Sat May 20, 2006 00:54

I dont think violence outside the church would benefit anyone. There is a time and place. This isn't it. I think AFA and all other militant anti-fascists appreciate this.

by taj Sat May 20, 2006 01:45

it is sad
how the irish
have forgotten
their history
20 years ago it
was the british
racists said
"get the paddys out
they are all terrorists"
_________________

how we forget

by ebw5 Sat May 20, 2006 03:26

.

by ohdear Sat May 20, 2006 04:12

ebw5, I hate to be a spoilsport, but McDowell is not a member of FF.

by Meabdh Sat May 20, 2006 12:58

.I was there yesterday to protest against free for all immigration into our country. Why I was labeled a racist by people who looked like they were part of some left wing cult is beyond me. Someone tried to lecture me about Irish emmigration and I said did you ever here about Elis Island?? or why did they not seek refuge in nearby Pakistan? or why are we helping suididal Tabiban sympatisers? or will these people become a security risk to thne state in the future?After all people who use such extremist measures could commit suicide to do anything.... or why do you support people to have no respest for even your type of politics? I think we're being manipulated. I heard people talking about this site so I posted here. Neddless to say I wont be back outside as I thought you were all a bit scary :) Meabdh from Tallaght.

by guydebordisdead Sat May 20, 2006 13:39

" black hoodie patch-wearing anarchos chatted and basically did nothing."

I didnt see a single patch on any member of the wsm or ay at the demo. If you think attacking people outside the cathedral will do the afghans a favour you're either a cop or a moron. AFA were there, antifascist anarchists were there, we're not going to advertise our presence - if there's trouble then the fascists will get what's coming to them.

by photographer Sat May 20, 2006 13:48

.

Ringleader who has been there on several occassions

Another ringleader

by Anti-fascist Sat May 20, 2006 13:49

The second guy was making nazi salutes last night.

by Solidarity Sat May 20, 2006 14:32

In 1943 Reichsprotektor of Bohemia and Moravia, the notorious Gestapo leader Reinhard Heydrich was assassinated in his open car by a team of Czech partisans in the centre of Prague.
The heroic assasins were betrayed and cornered in an orthodox church, the Church of Saints Cryil and Methodius by Gestapo and surrouded by Waffen SS troops.
A fierce gunbattle erupted and dozens of the stormtroopers were mown down as they attempted repeatedly to storm the building.
Finally the heroes took refuge in the basement of the church and used a narrow window at street level to open fire on the cordon of Nazi soldiers in the street outside. Dozens of SS were killed before a few soldiers drew level with the narrow slit in the stone wall and pitched grenades inside.
A firehose was put through the opening and water pumped inside. As the basement flooded and the partisans knew capture was inevitable they choose to commit suicide.
Afterward the town of Lidice was razed to the ground and all its inhabitants, men, women and children transported to concentration camps.

by maybe this is the reason that so few people turned out Sat May 20, 2006 14:54

I support loose immigration controls , but i do not think this action was appropriate.

I know that some of the men are waiting years to get through the system, but a hunger strike is not warranted, certainly not at this stage.
Staging a protest inside a church is unnecesarily provoking.

It would appear to be a copycat of actions taken throughout europe.

I cannot support such actions. You just can't work up people emotions like this. I am not happy. I don't want to see them arrested and kicked out of the building , but i do not support there actions at ALL. I did support their goals.

It's a bit like supporting a united ireland , but hating sinn fein .

by Barry - 32csm Sat May 20, 2006 15:29

In light of the recent spate of violent attacks , including a murder attempt on 32csm members in England by suspected BNP facists the photographs of suspected BNP members here have been linked to on the 32csm site . I assume Dublin republicans will be trying to ascertain their identities and see if they have any link to the far rightists and racists whove been attacking our members accross the water .

by Mickey joe - Republican but no give away person Sat May 20, 2006 15:35

Any real republican would be against these bogus asylum seekers screwing our system. Its only a fool who believes that by allowing asylum seekers in, it somehow adds to our republicanism. It doesn't

by Darragh Sat May 20, 2006 15:41

Why didn't these folks pick a government building to hold this protest in??? They should have taken a leaf from the USI folks and taken over a floor of the relevant government dept, barracaded themselves in and then gone at it, using a church is inapropriate I think...

by Barry - 32csm Sat May 20, 2006 15:47

Our republican heritage includes resolutely opposing far right facists trying to organise on the streets of Dublin . It also involves defending our members against organisations who violently attack them . The attacks by far rightists on our membership in England are a matter of record and have been extremely vicious , targetting even innocent family members and children of our activists . Republicans are extremely anxious to identify any members of these groups organising in Dublin given their history of attacks on our orgainsation in recent years and their well publicised links to empire loyalist deathsquads .

by Shane Sat May 20, 2006 16:00

If the law says that they should leave my country then they should leave. This is pure blackmail.

by Barry - 32csm Sat May 20, 2006 17:04

If I remember rightly thats what Maggie Thatcher said 25 years ago about Irish hungerstrikers .

by aoife - republican Sat May 20, 2006 17:22

i wouldn't bother getting drawn in.
you're right though barry it would be interesting to know who the BNP guys are and what they're at over in dublin...

by Shane - Not a Cop! Sat May 20, 2006 17:37

There are procedures in place for these people and others if they believe their lives are under threat. If they are accepted under those terms then I definitely would not argue. However some of those people haven’t fully "exhausted" those procedures. I am not a copper; no need for those types of insults.
The BNP should take their noses out of this. It is a legal matter.

by DubDubDub Sat May 20, 2006 17:43

.
The reason there has been such a poor turnout in support of the Afghans, currently occupying Saint Patrick’s Cathedral, is simple.
They don't deserve the sympathy they are trying to blackmail out of the Irish.

How did they arrive in Ireland ?
How many safe countries did they pass through before landing in Dublin ?

It is clear to most people with a bit of common sense, that these Afghans are shopping around for the best deal on their asylum application.

Ireland is seen as a soft touch.

And this hunger strike, coming just two weeks after the Bobby Sand's anniversary, is deliberately designed to maximise the impact of their emotional blackmail.

As for the hysterical reaction on this discussion board to a few of the locals turning up to express their opinion, contrary to the Afghans, it shows how intolerant you are to the views of ordinary Dubliners.

The rule on discussion boards has always been ;
HE WHO CRIES FASCIST FIRST LOSES THE ARGUEMENT !

by Corkboyzz - Private Individual Sat May 20, 2006 18:27

To DubDubDub above
How many Poles are in Ireland, looking for jobs to the exclusion of Irish people? Isn't it something like 70,000?

Do they live in a war-torn country? They do not. Poles coming to Ireland could not conceivably need refuge as these Afghans quite conceivably could. I don't know for sure whether they are telling the truth or not, but it is obvious even to a somewhat sceptical person like me that those Afghans are having no picnic.

Afghanistan is not under safe control at all. Even Irish people are strongly advised not to go there.

I understand of course that the Government is worried about other immigrants doing similar protests.
Nevertheless a victim of clerical sexual abuse went on hunger strike outside the Dail a few months ago, and got the amount of compensation he wanted.

Is it only victims of sexual abuse that are to be responded to when they go on hunger strike?

by Shane Sat May 20, 2006 19:43

The poles are in the EU unlike the Afghanis. They have not gone on hunger strike when things don't go their way unlike these people from Afghanistan who seem to have no respect for the law of the land. Putting ropes around their necks and threatening to jump from high places is called BLACKMAIL. I hope they call off their protest and follow proper procedures. If they are truly under threat then everything should be fine and they should get asylum.

by Montoya Sat May 20, 2006 20:15

As someone who was at the scene yesterday and today it is pretty obvious that a sizeable percentage of the counter protestors are, shock! horror!, members of the oppressed underprivileged / working class.

The same group of people that a lot of sympathetic indymedia posters bend over backwards to defend no matter how many cars they rob, people they mug at syringe point etc.

I believe the Afghans should stay.

On the other hand I have a blind spot towards the so-called 'salt of the earth' disaffected youth of this country that cause so much misery for their own communities and others.

It's interesting that if a crime is committed by a well-off person a lot of posters here will scream 'throw the book at him' but when a poor guy does the crime, the liberal left remain silent in collective justification.

by Corkboyzz - Private Individual Sat May 20, 2006 20:37

Shane, I know full well that Poles are from the EU, but this does not matter.

They are still not from Ireland, and they are still taking jobs and services that would otherwise be there for Irish people.

The Polish only entered the EU 2 years ago anyway, while the Afghan situation has been going on since at least the 80's.
If we can afford to have 70,000 Poles here who are not in danger of being killed, then we can afford to have 40 Afghans who probably are in that danger.

If the Poles have not gone on hunger strike, then I think that maybe that is because the Poles don't need to go on hunger strike.
They are not from a war ravaged country where there are so many groups you don't know how safe you are or where your enemies are.

And yes, you are right, the Afghans threatening to kill themselves and going on hunger strike is a form of blackmail, but people only do it when they feel they have no alternative - like that sexual abuse victim, for instance - and the Gov't did capitulate to him.

I don't see any more reason that these Afghans "should have faith in the system", than that sexual abuse victim should have had faith in the system whereby he was awarded compensation less than what he felt he was owed.

I would regard the danger of being killed in Afghanistan as being even more worthy of capitulation.

by Shane Sat May 20, 2006 21:35

I'm not saying they shouldn’t stay. They should follow the proper procedures that every other asylum seeker has to. This is the wrong way to get what they want and comes down to emotional blackmail which I have said before. If they have a case then I have confidence that it will be heard and a just outcome will follow as it has done for many other asylum seekers. The sexual abuse case is irrelevant. I assume that the person in question was harassed and this was proven in a court of law which came to a lawful conclusion. He must have seen the outcome as unfair and took action which I may not agree with but he may not have had any other option unlike the Afghanis who have yet to be told that they were being deported since some of their cases have not even been heard yet. If they had took the correct course of action up to now and this was a final desperate plea for sanctuary then I would be feeling different.

by Corkboyzz - Private Individual Sat May 20, 2006 21:54

Hi Shane, just to clarify the hunger strike I am takling about, it's the one where Tom McSweeney was on hunger strike for 22 days camped outside the Dail.

Quote about the hunger strike forcing the Governments hand:

"Tom Sweeney has achieved a major breakthrough for victims of industrial school abuse in their fight for a far better deal than the one given them on foot of Bertie Ahern’s apology five years ago.

He has forced upon the Government a changed attitude towards the Redress Board and a potential change in the Redress Act."

He bassically went on hunger strike to get higher compensation which the Redress Board (and its appeals procedure) was refusing to give him.

You can read more at the supplied link.

by Solidarity Sun May 21, 2006 14:55

To hell with proper procedure!
The Afghans were forced to STARVE themselves to get the publics attention!
The guards arrived and easily removed them and NONE of their "supporters" intervened!

by Z-man Sun May 21, 2006 15:05

The misnamed 'Solidarity' doesn't know what he or she is babbling on about. There was no 'resistance', sit-down blockade or anything like that as the Afghans were being brought because RAR relayed to Fintan Lane - who was on the megaphone - that the AFGHANS themselves had requested that there be no blockade or physical resistance.

That was the Afghans' decision. Should the supporters have just ignored their wishes?

by Shane Sun May 21, 2006 16:14

It is simple. These people didn't even go through the proper process in order to stay. It is not as if they have been turned down in the first place. They were attempting to circumvent t OUR law. If the "supporters" had intervened then they should have been dealt with according to the law of the land.
This seems to be the correct course of action and I am pleased to see this event reach a peaceful conclusion. Our laws must not be dictated to us by people who by their own admission were involved in unethical behaviour in their own land.

by Corkboyzz - Private Individual Sun May 21, 2006 17:40

Shane, from what I could gather the men were actually going through the procedures, and indeed two of them had actually been granted refugee status, but others who were going through the procedure became convinced that they were not being taken seriously at a stage when they had not exhausted all the appeals procedures.

I would not dispute that we have to have an immigration process, and indeed ours is good compared to Australia where anyone seeking asylum is automatically locked imprisoned, but I have heard also that people there has been criticism of our system as being inconsistent and secretive.

by militant liberal Sun May 21, 2006 20:58

It's just been revealed that one of the members of the "hunger strikers" was a serial rapist and murderer back i afghanistan,and a commander in the taliban,this was what he used to try to justify he's reason for staying in the country,as he beleived that he would have to face justice when he returned.

here's a link to the story

http://home.eircom.net/content/unison/national/8100881?...omnet

by MichaelY - iawm Sun May 21, 2006 21:04

The 'revelation' comes, of course, from that serially liberal publication entitled 'Sunday Indo'. The 'revelation' is again from Indo's impeccable 'sources' - unnamed - don't ask.
I'll tell you one thing - if you believe that rag you would believe anything. And before I forget, the veracity of that publication, and its editorial integrity, has been recently increased manyfold by another serial liberal of the irish media establishment : the impeccably endowed Kevin what's his name.

Get a life - would you guys/dolls?

by p Sun May 21, 2006 21:15

Firstly, if a person said to a state agency he was a multiple killer/rapist he would be arrested on the spot. sometimes the sindo stretches the immagination, and this websites supposed to be extremist1

by Starstruck Wed May 24, 2006 14:26

I have nothing to add as regards the seconbd individual,maybe he was the victim of some over-zealous fascist-exposer who may have got it wrong but there's one thing that is certain-"Mr BNP-man" as he has become known was a definite organiser all last week at St Pats cathederal.
He was there all day long from Monday onwards,initially on his own and then found some friends clearly.
I personally confronted him on several occasions during which he was very eager to produce his Irish Passport.This doesnt matter shit.He was stirring up those involved in the counter-demonstrations,sending others over to confront the Pro-Afghan supporters and on several occasions he himself got aggresive and foul-mouthed .

"He also says that at one point he pulled down a poster with the slogan 'Let them die'.
This is true but not for the reason given-I was on that side of the road as he did so and he was overheard saying soon after that to win the locals over they had to appear moderate even though he couldnt give a f**k if they lived or died.

I don't for one minute buy this bullshit sob-story,maybe he's not a member of the BNP.that could have been rumour turning into truth but there is no doubt that he is a fascist and as such will not be tolerated.

.

by Eire Wed May 24, 2006 19:39

Is there any truth that several of the refugees that were in St. Pats were smuggled into Ireland by the Afghan Mafia who were also transporting heroin into Ireland???

by redjade Wed May 24, 2006 19:51

'Is there any truth that...

dude, you're asking the wrong question.

you should be asking 'where is the evidence that....'

and, you should also stop reading shitty papers like the Herald and the Indo.

justa suggestion

by Dave Mon May 29, 2006 17:56

Hopefully the courts and government will eventually consent to allowing the Afghan men to remain in this country. Afghanistan is quite obviously and widely accepted to be a place to very defiantly avoid at all costs at the moment, the continued British lead military build up being obvious cause for concern. Although I must add the church sit in was very defiantly not as innocent as it may at first seem. I have it on very good authority that there were more sinister connections to the group of Afghan men. Especially from an organizational view point,. several churches were taken over in Holland at roughly the same time and the belief is that terrorist or Islamic extremist (whatever you chose to call them) were behind much of the organization of these acts. In conclusion let these men stay and allow them to integrate and contribute to Irish society but caution by the authorities is justified.

by Seán Mon May 29, 2006 18:17

Hang on, let me get this straight, we had an English man, possibly from the British National Party, complaining about FOREIGNERS coming to Ireland!
Did anyboby point out this delightful irony to him or any of his misunderstood youth cronies?

by dubfire Thu Jun 08, 2006 02:14

Interesting to note ---the more immigration we have the more racism we get. I barely heard the word racism 10 years ago. We will soon have a Nationalist party gaining support among the working classes. If you think we cannot have an INP winning elections here and gaining support. Think again. Just keep adding immigrants and assylum seekers. The more we bring in ---the more we loose. It is a fight we cannot win. All the Hate laws etc.. just anger the working class. These laws never affect the wealthy or the Corporations. I think we need to rethink all this nonsense. Sooner or later (and it will be sooner) the BNP will swing into power in the UK and then we are doomed here. It is interesting that the Racists are adopting Lenin's phrase "Worse is Better". It seems to be bringing them into fashion and power among the youth. Racism is now pretty much illegal and anything perceived as illegal appeals to the youth.

by DD Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:43

Dubfire, I'm afraid I can't see any logic in your post. We have had the ICP the IPP and Justin Barrett and other assorted racist/fascist/anti immigrant candidates running for election and they got slaughtered. The BNP will never be in power, EVER. Also it is not illegal to be a racist and we have no hate laws. We have an incitement to hatred act which is utterly useless and has never seen a conviction stick under it. Also you assume it is the working class who are racist, which as a whole is completely untrue. Racism is an affliction across all classes, and people aren't attracted to it because its illegal, people are attracted to it as they can deflect blame and anger onto immigrants. Also we have had racism in this country for a very long time. Look at our treatment of travellers and indeed at religious minorities and the sectarianism that has been evident on the island for a long time. I'm afraid dubfire none of your points are valid.