Striking "Submarine" Workers Oppose Cheap Labour

by Dermot L - Labour Youth Wed Dec 06, 2006 16:38

..."the left" will respond with the same kind of solidarity that it did when Joanne Delaney was dismissed in such brutal circumstances in the adjoining shopping centre. Can anyone from MANDATE let us know if there's anything specific local activists - and "locals" of the pub itself, myself included - can do to show solidarity with these workers/

by Caobhin Wed Dec 06, 2006 17:46

This kip masquerades as HQ for the "Green army" so might be an idea to get in touch with local football clubs/LOI supporters/Ireland supporters.

by Jan Vennegoor of Hesselink Wed Dec 06, 2006 22:43

Support these Workers!

Official Dispute -boycott the Submarine Bar!

Whither the "Left"? Irish Ferries anyone.....

by Eddie Thu Dec 07, 2006 00:43

Jan, who said these strikers were racist? I didnt hear anyone say they were. They deserve our support as do all striking workers.

by Peter K - Socialist Youth Thu Dec 07, 2006 01:32

I'd like to echo Dermot L's inquiry; can MANDATE or any of the workers involved in the strike, let us know if there is anything specific local activists can do to show solidarity?

by bootboy Thu Dec 07, 2006 02:10

Why are you suggesting that these workers might be racist or that others might think so? I mean, why would anybody even raise the question? Are you going to start suggesting they might be sexist too?

"The left" isn't like the A-team, contrary to your misconception. They don't just jump in vans and rock up to any old picket line. Lots of people probably don't want support from left wing groups and it would be really rather presumptuous to just show up and pull out your pickets. If the workers, or their union, was to put out a call for support, or was to organise a support meeting, then I'm sure some lefties would come along to help out. That's how solidarity works, it's up to the people in struggle to decide what type of support they would like from others. If they don't want people to join their pickets or help to organise protests, that's their perogative.

by pat c Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:36

Theres an article in todays Examiner. Full story at the link. I cannot understand why Jan would think that anyone on the Left would regard these workers as racist.

BAR staff started a three-day picket yesterday after they were told that their numbers were to be cut and they would have to re-apply for their jobs. The workers at the Submarine Bar were told by the new owner last Friday that they would all have to take redundancy and then re-apply for their jobs. They said they were told application forms had to be in by last Monday.

According to Alvin Simpson, who has been employed there for five years, the workers decided to unite and refuse to submit the applications. He added that although staff had contracts and some had worked there for up to 11 years, they had been told they would lose their jobs by this Friday if they did not co-operate with the new owner. Mr Simpson said only one staff member, a part-time member, had crossed their picket line yesterday.

by Peter K - Socialist Youth Thu Dec 07, 2006 17:25

I was up at the submarine today talking to those on strike, apparently the new owner is actively working against the strike by handing out flyers in the car park of the Ashleaf depicting the strikers as greedy and uncompromising. If anyone has got their hands on one of these flyers could they possibly upload it on this thread?

by seany Thu Dec 07, 2006 17:32

can somebody get these people legal advice?

I would think that they need legal representation asap!!!!

by pat c Thu Dec 07, 2006 18:11

Have they requested legal advice? There has been no suggestion that MANDATE has been misrepresenting these workers. I am sure that MANDATE will get them legal advice if its required. If you are suggesting that the staff take libel action against the owner then thats possibly a good idea. But it would be about two years before such a case got to court.

I reckon its the owner who is shooting himself in the foot with this tactic. It would be an idea for the workers to bring out a leaflet putting across their own position, but thats their decision.

by David Thu Dec 07, 2006 18:19

The owners behavior is reprehensible.
Perhaps a boycott could be organised, hit this greedy bastard where it hurts.

by Janspeed Fri Dec 08, 2006 07:51

Not much to say now eh Jan? "The left" is offering its full support to these workers and asking what it can do to help. You've been trying to sow divisions between Irish and immigrant workers on quite a few threads now, but it won't wash. I doubt these workers are racist, certainly there's no reason to believe they are, but it seems very likely indeed that you ARE a racist trying to stir shit.

by Jan Vennegoor of Hesselink Fri Dec 08, 2006 18:42

Despite the the above, besides MANDATE, there has been no official support from the local branches of either SF or Labour or any other organisation including trade unions. Neither the "Joe Higgins party" not trotskyites have made any overtures. Frankly, it's just themselves on the picket line.

Obviously the workers are not likely to be racists, but people have been accused of racism, by trotskyites and "leftists" for opposing Irish worker job displacement eg Irish Ferries, Doyle Concrete, GAMA, Collen Construction etc etc, i.e is that's their primary motivation.

The fact is "leftists" waffle about solidarity and so forth, were happy to march in favour of the sacked Irish martime workers -and yet support the scab labour? Which ironic because that's just what local "leftist activists" were screaming at Irish workers at the terminal in Co Mayo - they had their day out to play at being "revolutionaries" and yet what was the outcome? Just the same.

It is of some solace that these "internet warriors" are so full of themselves and their pathetic politics -or busy with their Social Science, philosophy exams -that I guess it will be left to ordinary local people to sort this issue out.

Whether Irish or not, Scabs out! Oppose job displacement by any means necessary!

by Wilson Pickets Fri Dec 08, 2006 19:45

What 'Leftists' supported scab labour Jan?

by Gerry Fri Dec 08, 2006 20:01

Jan, I dont think you have a clue as to where people on the left stand in relation to worker displacement.

You are not the first person on different internet forums to try to use this dispute as a means of having a go at Foreign Nationals and immigration even though this dispute is about the exploitation of workers (Irish or Foreign national) and has nothing to do with immigration.

If you have evidence of people on the left supporting scab labour you should show the evidence as I am quite sure that their own organisations would take action against them for doing so.

What is happening here in this pub is appalling and is a further example of the exploitation of workers (both foreign and Irish national) by greedy employers and being allowed to get away with it by a Government that cares nothing for ordinary workers.

What people should be campaigning for is a significant increase in the minimum wage as well as the creation of binding JLC's for all the diferent sectors of employment to copperfasten rates of pay and conditions in all sectors of employment.

The Government also needs to strengthen the actions that can be taken against greedy employers such as in this case and where such legislation or regulations are breached that employers get jailed. If such a policy was implemented it would end the vast majority of exploitation of both Irish and Foreign workers and attempts at job displacement etc.

Would you agree with that Jan?

by Jan Vennegoor of Hesselink Fri Dec 08, 2006 22:32

I would agree with much of what you say.

In addition to those suggestions, any business employing illegal immigrants -or engaging in job displacement of Irish workers -ought to be closed down. I would imagine that would serve as a dis-incentive.

Irish people -or EU nationals -ought to be given preference for jobs.

Re-introduce (a more equitable) work permit system for citzens of the new accession states immigrating to Ireland from this point onwards and restrict immigration from Bulgaria and Romania -until at least the other EU states open their borders to nationals from those countries.

Would you agree to that, Gerry?

by Jan Vennegoor of Hesselink Fri Dec 08, 2006 22:42

No organisation openly supports Scab labour but I have been told be anarchists and trotskyites that they don't mind at all that foreign nationals can come here and compete with Irish for jobs, in principle.

Also, the fact that "the left" are engaged day & night in Co Mayo trying to prevent Shell from building a terminal there and yet they gave up so tamely after Latvians replaced Irish workers at Irish Ferries, I consider such dereliciton of duty effectively supporting scabs. Dublin post should've been closed down, there was certainly public support.

These "activists" are only happy to post on the internet, hand out a few leaflets in town or attend a few demonstrations or meetings and call that activism.

Long ago, scabs -whoever they were or wherever they were from -far from being pitied were quite frankly very unpopular people. A very divisive issue in Latvia also.

by Gerry Sat Dec 09, 2006 00:23

Jan, you say you would agree with much of what I had to say. I would be interested to know what did you disagree with?

I dont really believe this discussion should be on this thread as this is about an industrial dispute in Dublin and is not about immigrantion or foreign nationals but since you brought it up would you support the closing down of all businesses that engaged in displacement of workers or just ones that engaged in displacement of Irish workers?

I dont know of anyone on the left that would have any time for scabs of any sort, whether Irish or foreign national? I dont know about you, but it wouldnt make me feel any better that the scab stealing my job was Irish and not a foreign national. I am opposed to exploitation of ALL workers, Irish and otherwise. Exploitation of workers and slave labour are not caused by immigration.

by observer Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:31

Jan is right. The logical consequence of the current levels of immigration - supported by the left - is displacement and lowering of wages and conditions. That indeed is the whole point of the exercise. The left may have different ideological justifications but basically are singing the same tune as IBEC and all the other free market pro immigrationists.

by Jan Vennegoor of Hesselink Sat Dec 09, 2006 13:31

I would close down all businesses engaged in job displacement or biased hiring of non-union labour. I do however believe that Irish people ought to have a preference for jobs -in Ireland.

Good point Observer. We are entitled to limit immigration here in order to protect our industrial labour standards.

I keep on coming back to this point, because it is so apt, that for all this talk from the so-called left and their fellow travellers, despite the public opposition to the scandal that occurred at Irish Ferries, Irish workers were replaced by foreigners -as they were at Doyle Concrete and many other companies. How do respond to that?

How can you lecture ordinary people about their attitudes to immigration when the liberal labour market that has resulted means that employers can replace Irish workers with impunity. You can bluster all you like about what you would like to do, but limiting immigration would be the most effective means preventing this sort of theing from happening and the dogs on the street know it.

by Janspeed Sun Dec 10, 2006 15:28

Well if there was any doubt that you are a racist who wants to divert people's anger against employers onto foreigners you've removed it now. There's an real debate to be had on this issue but not with racists like you

by Jan Vennegoor of Hesselink Tue Dec 12, 2006 20:01

I hate the employer who unlawfully puts a person out of his job, in order to replace him with another more pliant worker.

But I'm also an enemy of the scab.

by Caobhin Wed Dec 13, 2006 14:11

limiting immigration would be the most effective means preventing this sort of theing from happening and the dogs on the street know it.

If by "dogs on the street" you mean an ignorant rump of racist wannabe fascists you are correct.

The only means of stopping workers being "expolited" is by workers standing together - not whenever their own particular interests are threatened but wherever the grasping gombeens try to bulldoze the limited workers protection won over the course of the last 100 years. That the head honchos of "democratic socialism" (Labour/ICTU ETC) abandoned all pretence of socialism around 1991/92 and ran to the centre right is the real problem. If this character really believes that exploitation of workers began in Ireland with the Celtic badger and recent immigrantion he is either completely ignorant or a racist cu*t - my money's on the latter.

by goblin Wed Dec 13, 2006 18:42

This debate has gone a bit pear shaped ans on some posts is sounding more and more like political bricklaying of the BNP variety.

Bottom line, all exploitation of workers is wrong especially foreign nationals as it sets precidents.

The owners of the Submarine bar are unscrupulous profiteers in this matter and are aiding the degregation of tradional Union barstaff in Dublin. Which of course leads to poorer work conditions/wages et al.

Now can any tell me how to type italics on this site?

by observer Wed Dec 13, 2006 18:53

There wouldn't be a BNP - which is stronger than all far left groups in UK combined - if the left had the balls to stand up to scabs instead of making excuses for them. In 1913 some of you would have been going on about not being nasty to the poor exploited English workers who were taking our jobs on the docks. Jan is right, the logical solution to cheap labour is to cut off the source through immigration controls.

by Goblin Wed Dec 13, 2006 18:59

You have me at loss, you seem to support both the left and the right at the same time?

by observer Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:17

I am making a left wing argument. Most TU members I know agree with me that there needs to be state controls placed on the current level of mass immigration. That is the most practical solution to the problems that it is causing. The current arrangements are there because this Government is driven by the needs of gombeen employers and couldn't give two hoots about the devestating effects this is having on working class communities.

by Janspeed Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:58

"There wouldn't be a BNP - which is stronger than all far left groups in UK combined - if the left had the balls to stand up to scabs instead of making excuses for them."

What pathetic drivel. The BNP's vile propaganda targets people who were born and bred in Britain, not just immigrants. It taps into an ugly racist vein in British society, and takes advantage of the political void in working-class communities since the Labour party abandoned them. If Britain banned immigration tomorrow, the BNP would still exist until anti-racist campaigners were able to take it on politically and undermine its support base.

It's telling that neither you nor your comrade Jan Hatestirrer of Bigotry has been able to point to a SINGLE example of the left "making excuses for scabs". Because there ARE no examples. And this mythical behaviour has absolutely nothing, nada, zilch, to do with the growth of the BNP. You're just trying to make the victims of racism responsible for racism and turn the racists into the victims.

Jan Hatestirrer of Bigotry says anyone who calls him a racist is a "pathetic simpleton". Well I call it as I see it, and I'm not going to be intimidated into silence by your childish abuse - I think both of you are racists trying to promote divisions between Irish and foreign workers.

by observer Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:06

You can think what you like and rant and abuse people as much as you like. I know what most trade union members and workers I know think and it is not the same as you. All piss and air slogans that have nothing to do with reality. Objectively, you are on the same side as IBEC and the union busting gombeenmen. You both support mass immigration which is of absolutely NO benefit to the Irish working class. Quite the opposite in fact.

by Janspeed Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:04

Objectively and subjectively, you are on the same side as the BNP. Piss and air waffle can't hide that fact. You blame the victims of racism for racism and make excuses for fascism. You claim that the BNP wouldn't exist if the Left hasn't "made excuses for scabs" - something that has never happened, anywhere. Anyone can see what your real agenda is.

Go on, I challenge you, to find a SINGLE example of the Left "making excuses for scabs" - and I mean "scab" in the real sense of the term, not in your distorted racist view where any foreigner who takes a job that might otherwise have gone to an Irish person is a scab, I mean when striking workers have been replaced by non-union workers and the Left has said "fine, no problem go right ahead". You can't, and all the piss and air waffle won't disguise that fact.

by observer Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:13

Where have I said anything favourable to the BNP! I merely pointed out that more working class people in UK vote for them and support them than do ALL the other non-LP left parties. And largely due to the left's total lack of real ties and insight as represented for example by the SWP's flirtation with right wing Islamists.

Mass immigration is here for one reason and one reason only. This state opened up its borders at the behest of low paying bosses. Simple as that. Working class communities are paying the price. Or perhaps you are one of those Bacik types who beleives that it is "enriching" us in some bizarre way?

by Janspeed Fri Dec 15, 2006 02:32

Nope, that's not what you said. You claimed that the BNP wouldn't exist if the Left hadn't made excuses for foreign workers crossing picket lines when British workers were on strike and taking their jobs. Anyone can scroll back up and see this claim in black and white. You haven't been able to point to a single example of the Left excusing this sort of behaviour, because there is none. Your dishonesty is blatantly obvious to anyone with eyes to see.