|
|
Rights, Freedoms and Repression
Blog Feeds
Anti-Empire
The SakerA bird's eye view of the vineyard
Public InquiryInterested in maladministration. Estd. 2005
Human Rights in IrelandIndymedia Ireland is a volunteer-run non-commercial open publishing website for local and international news, opinion & analysis, press releases and events. Its main objective is to enable the public to participate in reporting and analysis of the news and other important events and aspects of our daily lives and thereby give a voice to people.
|
State Willfully Discriminates Faith Community national |
rights, freedoms and repression |
news report
 Tuesday January 23, 2007 18:26 by Dúlra
 In a formal statement to an Irish Times journalist a spokesperson for the Governemnt said yesterday that there are ‘no plans at the moment’ to include members of the Pagan community to the first structured talks between the State and various faith groups. In a formal statement to an Irish Times journalist a spokesperson for the Government said yesterday that there are ‘no plans at the moment’ to include members of the Pagan community to the first structured talks between the State and various faith groups. The purpose of these talks was to discuss areas of common concern and to reflect the spiritual diversity of Ireland.  We are currently not accepting any more comments on this article. printable version
with comments
   We are currently not accepting any more comments on this article. |
Digg this
del.icio.us
Furl
Reddit
Technorati
Facebook
Gab
Twitter
|
View Comments Titles Only
save preference
Comments (45 of 45)
Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45Paganism is the Religion of the Neolithic times. It is backward and should not be supported. There is no God. There is no solution other than RATIONAL thought and science. That is progress. Paganism and Religion are the products of ignorance. The State should not be having any forum for religions. If you want to do Religion and Spirituality do it in the privacy of your own home and with consenting people.
1. Paganism is a spiritual way of life very much alive today like many other faiths
2. Militant Atheist's view is irrational and the reaction is indicative of a siege mentality
3. Science can only measure the physical plane within its current technological limits
4. The State's current legal framework around social and moral issues do require dialogue with ALL spiritual traditions.
Paganism is not a religion. It is an expression of Earth Based Spirituality. It may be that the Militant Athiest cannot recognise a God or Goddess but most Pagans do. He/She attacks the right of free choice of others in a most fascist manner. It is obvious from the comment that He/She does not actually understand what Paganism or Religion actually are - yet the attack on expression of a belief system is very agressive and unwarranted. The suggestion in the last line of the comment implies some sort of perversion is being practiced by Pagans or those with Religions. Please remove this inappropriate comment.
Where do you draw the line?
At the remaining Branch Davidians? 'Satanists' that sacrifice animals. Followers of commets.
Where? Where should the line be drawn?
Who draws the line? No one person of any faith has the right to exert authority over another and thus spiritual traditions do not answer to or require validation from another, or from those of no faith.
The Branch Davidians were in fact a Christian faction, believing that David Koresh was the reincarnated messiah.
To be a Satanist you must believe in the Devil, a figure of the Christian realm, and therefore you must believe in the Christian mythos.
Constructive dialogue please.
No one's exerting authority but there's a finite number of places at these things.
Not everyone can be included.
I'm sure there are plenty of people whose 'faith' won't be catered for but that's the nature of the beast.
The State discriminates againt all whom are not middle/Upper class Catholics.
6pm everyday, the State Television Service remains everyone which religion has favour in this jurisdiction.
Are we secular or not?
Citing The Angelus as discrimination is ridiculous.
Should we not teach Irish in schools because not everyone in the country is Irish?
How exactly is it being discriminatory, by the way?
It is discriminatory because it illustrates that there is no separation of church and state.
The Angelus as a uniquely catholic sacrament and sends a message to all who hears it that the only religion endorsed by the State is Catholicism but I’m sure a conservative catholic like yourself knows this already.
Either include all or don’t show any. Simple really, and a concept thoroughly grasped and understood by secular nations throughout the world.
And as for schools, should we teach 'Intelligent design' in classrooms because it says so in the Bible or is Darwin acceptable to your Christian sensitivities?
"Don't jump to conclusions".
But you just did.
1) I'm not a conservative Catholic
2) The intelligent design comment is both puerile and ridiculously stupid.
In the 2002 census, 3.4 million of the 3.9 million inhhabitants of the island declared themselves to be Roman Catholic. Ireland still has Cathoolic leanings whether you like it or not.
Showing the Angelus doesn't mean it endorses Catholicism alone but that it endorses Catholicism.
If the Angelus offends you, then you need to get a life. I mean the abstract 'you', by the way. If it doesn't, then there is no problem.
"Don't jump to conclusions, I'm not a conservative Catholic”
Fair enough, I apologise unreservedly.
“The intelligent design comment is both puerile and ridiculously stupid.”
About as stupid as this I would say “Should we not teach Irish in schools because not everyone in the country is Irish?” given the context of what we were discussing.
“In the 2002 census, 3.4 million of the 3.9 million inhhabitants of the island declared themselves to be Roman Catholic. Ireland still has Cathoolic leanings whether you like it or not.”
France and Italy are predominately Roman Catholic and their state television services don’t show/endorse the Angelus. What is your point?
“Showing the Angelus doesn't mean it endorses Catholicism alone but that it endorses Catholicism”.
As I said already either include all or don’t show any. This is to prevent isolating minorities.
Where all cannot be equally accommodated don’t accommodate anyone, religious affairs especially
“If the Angelus offends you, then you need to get a life. I mean the abstract 'you', by the way. If it doesn't, then there is no problem”
The Angelus does not offend me personally. I disagree with its broadcast on State television for the reasons above. I do not pay taxes/TV license for this state to trumpet religious imagery/iconography on the airwaves
I was making the point that since Ireland had a tradition of showing The Angelus and is still mainly Catholic, then why is there a need to change it?
I don't think it isolates minorities...this is where we probably differ. It's part of the fabric....that doesn't mean that that won't change but I would be particularly surprised if there were people of any other religion that felt isolated because RTE shows The Angelus.
But that's just me.
Hi all,
with regard to the Angelus - it is played to recall a victory by a Catholic Army over a Muslim Army in Europe in the middle ages.
with regard to the Rights of Pagans - The Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms as ratified by the Government of Ireland -
Article 9 - Freedom of thought, conscience and religion
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
2. Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
Article 10 - Freedom of expression
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.
2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.
Article 11 - Freedom of assembly and association
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
2. No restrictions shall be placed on the exercise of these rights other than such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others. This article shall not prevent the imposition of lawful restrictions on the exercise of these rights by members of the armed forces, of the police or of the administration of the State. - this guarentees my right to be Pagan and a Druid if I so choose.
With regard to exclusion of Pagans and Druids in dialogue with the State with the main churches and the Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran and Moravian churches. Also invited are - the Religious Society of Friends, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Salvation Army, the Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox and Romanian Orthodox Churches, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the Jewish Representative Council of Ireland, the Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland, the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha's of the Republic of Ireland, the Irish Council of Churches, and the Humanist Association of Ireland. - Pagan and Druids are the native spiritual traditions of this island predating all the above groupings by thousands of years. Pagans and Druids should be at these talks.
It was a christian army (can't stand anti catholism)
anyway back to Pagans. how many pagans are there in ireland?
I'm sure the government met the catholic, protestant , presbyterian, moslim, jewish, representatives
any others? Im' pretty sure they did not include every smaller religion in the country
If there were votes in it I can guarantee you they would have looked you up.
that, I'm afraid, is demoracy.
It was a christian army (can't stand anti catholism)
My answer - You are incorrect here. The Christian faith became Catholic in 325 Ad at the Council of Nicea. Know your history by researching it.
anyway back to Pagans. how many pagans are there in ireland?
My answer - There is no place on the State Population Census form for Pagans or Druids to declare. I would guess that there are many thousands who practice some form of Earth Based Spirituality / Paganism in Ireland today.
I'm sure the government met the catholic, protestant , presbyterian, moslim, jewish, representatives
any others? Im' pretty sure they did not include every smaller religion in the country If there were votes in it I can guarantee you they would have looked you up.
My answer - one of the groups invited by the State to these interfaith talks does not present as a religion and does not recognise a god in any form. They are invited because of lobbying. This is what I am doing now.
that, I'm afraid, is demoracy.
My answer - try not to be afraid of democracy. It is the governments that should fear the people and not the people who should fear the government.
There are thousands of Pagans in Ireland, more than the followers of these smaller Christians traditions that will each be represented. However, the CSO does not cater for this on the census forms. Many people simply put Roman Catholic on the census simple because they were baptised or confirmed without a say in it. Belief is another matter. Also, because of the attitude of the Establishment many people in regards to Pagan faith many folk are afraid to openly decalre their Pagan faith.
Pagan faith is the oldest tradition of this island and is deliberately being overlooked by the State. Thats is simply wrong. This is not an election, so it's not about democracy. If this initiative is to be a refelection on spiritual diversity, it should be egalitarian to include all and that means the island's oldest spiritual traditions also.
BUNREACHT NA hEIREANN has the following preamble -
In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred, We, the people of Éire, Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial, Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation, And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations, Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.
This is way out of order and gives bias to one faith above others. It needs to be brought into line with current ethics and reflect the diversity of the spiritual practices in Ireland today. Pagans and Druids cannot accept the above defining interpretive filter of a dominant religion to guide them - it is inappropriate today - it must be changed. This is what the dialogue of the State with various faiths will have to face up to.
It is about time.
BUNREACHT NA hEIREANN and all its ammendments since 1937 can be found at the link below
I think you'll find Con, that there has already been a case where the Catholic religion has been removed from having a position of primacy within Bunreacht na hÉireann. I cannot supply the exact details presently as I'm not close to my paperwork. I'll look up the details later and post them then.
As for altering the preamble - I disagree with you. I think the introduction in the preamble, is a reflection of an historic reality rather than a loophole that offers the Catholic church a powerbase from which to exert control over the citizens of Ireland. One must remember that the preamble establishes the rights of the individual as being the root of the common good.The fact that the church does have such a powebase and does exert control over the citizenry cannot be blamed on the preamble. It must be blamed on the Government and to a somewhat lesser extent it must be blamed on us the citizenry of Ireland.
Anyway, the Preamble is indeed a lawful document, however, it is not legally inforcable. It is open to the interpretation of any individual armed with a dictionary. This is why it should not be altered, the chances are, that the powers that be, would remove from it, the power that it confers upon the individual, whilst at the same time, not interfering with the monopoly operated by the Catholic church.
'Anyway, the Preamble is indeed a lawful document,'
The preamble is not an Article of the Constitution and therefore has no legal standing. You cannot cite it in court to legally back up a point of law you might wish to make.
But I would like to take this opportunity to support Con. Paganism is just as valid as anyother religion.
Hi John
If the Catholic religion has been removed from having a position of primacy within Bunreacht na hÉireann as you say - then why is it allowed to dominate the Constitutional Laws that follow it? I hope you do post the details as you offered.
If the preamble, is a reflection of an historic reality - then perhaps we should let the archaeologists take it apart to see how it works! It should be preserved by excavation...
I suggest that it clearly gives the Catholic church a powerbase from which to exert control over the citizens of Ireland.
You agree that ".The fact that the church does have such a powebase and does exert control over the citizenry cannot be blamed on the preamble. It must be blamed on the Government and to a somewhat lesser extent it must be blamed on us the citizenry of Ireland." And I want to tell you a story -
When I joined A Coy 27th Batt Irish Army in Dundalk - the first thing the Sargent Major said to us was a list of pubs in Dundalk town that were Out of Bounds to all Irish Soldiers because they belonged to the Provos. Now, that was a preamble to my entire time in Dundalk. His intention was clear and we all knew why. You cant spin the preamble into religious freedom when it only acknowledges one male god.
You say "Anyway, the Preamble is indeed a lawful document, however, it is not legally inforcable. It is open to the interpretation of any individual armed with a dictionary. This is why it should not be altered, the chances are, that the powers that be, would remove from it, the power that it confers upon the individual, whilst at the same time, not interfering with the monopoly operated by the Catholic church." I cannot agree - it can be changed and retain the powers confered on the individual while removing the monopoly given to one church above all others.
What about the Goddess in all her many forms? Why allow a male God to dominate and exclude the Goddess? What about Humanists who do not recognise any form of God or Goddess? They have a seat at the talks table. Most of us have evolved out of the black and white world of the late 1930's - the cultural and spiritual diversity of today's Ireland needs to be able to express itself with out censorship of outdated laws. We are given this right as I quoted in a post above.
Pagans and Druids cannot accept the concept of a dominant male god to condition their world without the balance of a Goddess. 21st century now, we are free to be what we want to be....
It is in my humble opinion - time to seperate the church and state and grow up into a mature nation as part of a modern multi-faith Europe. This means changing / amending the constitution by public agreement. That is what the State dialogue with the various faiths in Ireland today must be about.
"The Preamble to the Constitution is not legally enforceable. Nevertheless it has been referred to from time to time when judges sought to interpret certain provisions in the Constitution..."
I don't just pull facts and figures from my arse. The above quotation can be found on page 156 from "Cases and Materials on The Irish Constitution" by James O'Reilly & Mary Redmond. It is considered a definitive exploration of the Irish Constitution, and indeed was written for the use of the Irish Judiciary and is used by them.
I haven't claimed that the Preamble was an article of the Constitution. The Preamble is supposed to be the template for Bunreacht na hÉireann. I use the word 'supposed' as many articles in the Constitution and many acts of Government and the Judiciary, defy this template.
For the record: No Constitutional argument of any description can be used in the lower Courts. However, in either the High Court or the Supreme Court, one can use any Constitutional argument one wishes, including the use of the Preamble. The Courts cannot interpret the Preamble (as I've already said), simply because it is written in common English and is signed off by 'We the People of Éire.' This means it is already defined and doesn't need interprettion.
With regard to what I said earlier about the Preamble not offering a position of power to the Catholic church: I'll quote another extract from the same book, to show why the Preamble does not confer extra rights on the Catholic church. The quote is from page 683 and is talking about what Justice Brennan had to say on the matter. It is in reference to a Supreme Court case from 1972. Quinn's Supremarket and Another v. The Attorney General and Another, [1972] I.R. 1 (Supreme Court):
"...The words of Mr. Justice Brennan are very pertinent to the question at issue in this case. Our Constitution reflects a firm conviction that we are religious people. The Preamble to the Constitution acknowledges that we are a Christian people and Article 44, s. 1, sub-s. 1, acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God but it does so in terms which do not confine the benefit of that acknowledgement to members of the Christian faith. In Article 44, s. 1, of the Constitution the State recognises the existence of the several religious denominations there named, including the Jewish Congregations, as well as all other unnamed ones existing at the date of the coming into operation of the Constitution. This declaration is an express recognition of the separate co-existence of the religious denominations, named and unnamed. It does not prefer one to the other and it does not confer any privilege or impose any disability or diminution of status upon any religious denomination, and it does not permit the State to do so."
I trust that this makes my position on what I've said clear.
"I don't just pull facts and figures from my arse."
Sometimes it sounds as if you do. Even the quote that you supply says quite clearly The Preamble to the Constitution is not legally enforceable. Nowhere in your other citation does the judge suggest the preamble has legal standing. I fail to see what point you are making. It must be just another part of your campaign of Constitution worship.
Try reading the second sentence of my first quote in the above comment. It states clearly that Judges can consider the preamble. It logically follows that if it can be considered that it may be argued so that it can be considered. Maybe this is a little bit over your head.
As for my worship of the Constitution - what bollocks. If you'd bothered to read what I've written above I clearly state that the Constitution frequently defies the terms under which it was conceived. Methinks that in your zeal to be a consistant stalker, you've left what little sense you possess at home.
Disagreeing with you does not make me a stalker. Its quite obvious (imho) that as the preamble is not an Article of the Constitution then no decision of a court can be based on the preamble. You may disagree with my opinion, that is your right. I suggest we agree to disagree. Neither of us are legally qualified.
Anyway all of this is taking away from the topic of this thread which is about discrimination against Pagans. Lets bring the thread back on topic and support Con in his campaign for representation.
Contact an Taoiseach to demand that the Ancient Irish Religions are represented at these consultations.
taoiseach@taoiseach.gov.ie
01-6194020 / 4021 / 4043
Fax: 01-6764048
As a Druid member of the Pagan community I seek an invitation to join in the first structured talks between the State and various faith groups. Support is appreciated. Perhaps quiet guarded acquiescence to the preamble (as discussed above) by the servants of the State is one factor contributing to the fact that the State has no plans to include anyone from the Pagan faith at this time and that my emails to the Taoiseach’s office are not getting a response. Maybe a second reason is that the Druid / Pagan 'community' does not have a titular head as it is non-hierarchical and the State does not know how to 'deal' with Pagans! Maybe another reason is that the State is scared of what the inclusion of Pagans will do their cherished notion of an 'island of saints and scholars' my Christy Moore (if you know what I mean). Convoluted constitutional arguments are the stuff of wealthy barristers - they don’t want to change it - they only wish to exploit it. I wish to change it to reflect my right as given in the EU and help this island of ours to grow up a bit and protect my rights of freedom under Art 9 - Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
I have the right of inclusion in these talks. I do not seek a mandate from every Pagan in Ireland - I do not have to because Paganism is not a religion with a single leader - it can’t be because it is a path of Earth Based Spirituality. I have no intention of getting diverted in side issues - I have intention of sitting in these talks if I can. Constructive help is much appreciated.
Personally, I think that if the State insists on having a debate with faith communities they should include everyone.
Now for some comments:
John Boy:
No one's exerting authority but there's a finite number of places at these things.
Last time I checked there was a finite number of people on the planet.
John Boy:
In the 2002 census, 3.4 million of the 3.9 million inhhabitants of the island declared themselves to be Roman Catholic. Ireland still has Cathoolic leanings whether you like it or not.
Citing the number of people who hold a position in order to argue support for it is a fallacy, specifically the
argumentum ad populem:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_the_majority.
Showing the Angelus doesn't mean it endorses Catholicism alone but that it endorses Catholicism.
The reasonable argument I have heard is that by endorsing Catholicism and not other faiths - they don't broadcast the Muslim call to prayer, for example. (By a reasonable argument, I'm excluding anything of the form "this offends me" as it is too subjective to reason about.) By the way, I'm not arguing against the Angelus on RTE, just answering a question.
There may not be the assumed huge distance between Catholics & Pagans - various cults within Catholicism & the worship at holy wells & numinous places bring them closer than it seems
One of the previous posters said this: "Paganism is not a religion. It is an expression of Earth Based Spirituality."
How can the State have dialogue with an Earth Based Spirtuality? It's surely impossible for anybody to represent paganism if it has no formal structure in the first place? Does that Druid guy have a quantifiable constituency he represents.
Also, if pagans want to be included: what are their policies? what are their views on social issues? Is there any type of manifesto they have? If not, why should the government waste time talking to them for the sake of some 'equality' agenda.
I may be wrong in this but I believe a body representing Humanism and/or Atheism was denied entry to these State-Religion negotiations. This, I believe, is more depressing.
Hi
to xian
there may be a lot of truth in what you say. But it might just be the other way round - that the Paganism never fully left the country folk because their spirituality is actually Earth based. This could be because they actually connect to Nature every day! The poor shepard must follow his flock and if the flock wont come to the shepard then the shepard must go to the flock....
to Niall
How can the State have a dialogue with God? Maybe the State can have dialogue with a person who bases his/her spirituality on understanding the Earth, ecology, environmentalism with respect for Nature. As the 'Druid guy' - I represent myself, my Grove of about a dozen members, my 45 Druí Daltaí and the 1000+ members of Ireland's Druidschool in some ways but I am not above any of these people. I am not the person in charge of Pagans or Druids in Ireland or anywhere.
With regard to my policies, views on social issues, manifesto etc please see the link below. You are wrong when you say "I believe a body representing Humanism and/or Atheism was denied entry to these State-Religion negotiations" - The Humanist Association of Ireland who do not beleive in God or Goddess or Church have a seat at the 'table' . They represent a section of the spiritual diversity of Ireland today. Try to not be depressed about these things - variety is the spice of life!
to the Preamble
There are 'faiths' at these talks who will want to change or just remove the Preamble to BUNREACHT NA hEIREANN. These talks have been delayed since 2004. The Preamble to BUNREACHT NA hEIREANN is a discrimination against all other faiths and by its presence it acts as a sense filter because it stains the powerful constitution with a religious bias.
The main problem with BUNREACHT NA hEIREANN is that it opens with the following qualifying preamble -
In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred, We, the people of Éire, Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial, Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation, And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations, Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.
end
I am not proposing the following - I present it only to make a point -
A Celtic Pagan Rights qualifying statement might read as follows -
With true and full connection to the Three Realms; the Sky above, the Sea below and the Land we stand upon, as honoured and respected by our Celtic Ancestors, we, the people of Éire, seek full connection to the temples of the Gods and Goddesses of the oldest spiritual tradition of this sacred land and hereby declare and lay claim to full rights and independence for the Pagan people of our Nation seeking to declare truth before the world, to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with all other nations and religions, do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.
end
A Muslim Rights qualifing statement would probably not be at ease with either version....
The Humanist Association of Ireland may have their own reservations too.....
In the current preamble -"Acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ," excludes all women, ladies and goddesses and maybe more importantly all other religions and spiritual paths except for the Catholic (which means 'universal path' and universal means = single curve). Constantine the Great made the Christian Path Catholic at his Council of Nicea in AD325. They did not and do not have any tolerance for other religions or spiritual paths because the Catholic (single curve) religion was to be (and is) used as a weapon to control the souls of men and women to the agenda of the Roman Empire. This was the dark shadow that hung over Michael Collins and later over Eamon DeValera when they sat down to write the constitution of Ireland. They knew that if they did not bow on bended knees to the Church - then the Bishops and Priests would denounce them from the pulpit of every small church putting the fear of their almighty savage god into the ordinary people and the fight for freedom from the British Empire would collapse. That shadow is still there enshrined in the constitution of Eire.
Just talking to our selves about Pagan Rights is not enough - we have to exercise our freedom of expression. I want a seat at the talks. I seek support, constructive criticism and positive understanding.
Hi all,
In this multicultural Ireland, which changes on a daily basis, and for a government that claims to be for equality in sites such as http://www.equality.ie/ and www.diversityireland.ie/ I think it is of extreme importance that all religions, beliefs and ways of life are accepted and acknowledged.
This is not a debate on the rights and wrongs of religion, but about our island and its multicultural differences.
There needs to be tolerance and acceptance of all forms of belief.
Paganism and Ireland have gone hand in hand for many thousands of years, the least our government can do to is acknowledge us and give us equal status as other minority religions have.
I hope that people can accept that simple fact.
Jessica
Zeus devotees worship in Athens
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6283907.stm
Worshippers who believe in the 12 gods of ancient Greece have held a ceremony at the Temple of Zeus in Athens.In 2003, white-clad worshippers performed an illicit ceremony at the Temple of Hephaestus, just below the Acropolis.At that time they were chased off the site by ministry of culture staff.
The list of faith groups from Irish Times to be included in delayed 'dialogue'
'As well as the main churches'
Presbyterian
Methodist
Moravian
Baptist
Lutheran
Religious Friends of Society
Jehovahs witnesses
The Salvation Ireland
Greek Orthodox
Russian Orthodox
Coptic Orthodox
Romanian Orthodox
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saint
Jewish Representative Council of Ireland (Jews)
Islamic Cultural Centre Or Ireland (Muslims)
Irish Council of Churches
The National Spiritual Assembly of Baha'is of the Republic of Ireland.
Humanist Association of Irelnad as the only organised athiests grouping, HAI's submission to the years delayed governement dialogue http://www.irish-humanists.org/announcements/HAI_Submis...6.pdf
So all the above, 'athiests' but no pagans?
Con do you have link to your submissions to enter dialgoue or the dialouge submission.
Hi
I do not have a document from the Government regarding the proposed structure of these interfaith talks that have been in the media as purporting to reflect the spiritual diversity of Ireland today. I am seeking to get such a written outline / direction for the talks and a seat at these talks but the senior civil servant responsible has not returned my many email and phone inquiries to date. When I ask to speak with someone more senior in the office I am told that he - John Kennedy (01 6194020 webmaster@taoiseach.gov.ie) is the only person with regard to this issue. There is no phone message facility for him either.
With regard to my concern in the talks - the Preamble as given in earlier posts and a host of associated items such as - Oaths, Registrar information, Hospital Information, Educational requirements all require modification to be inclusive of all faiths in Ireland today.
There is much in the Humanist Association of Ireland’s submission at http://www.irish-humanists.org/announcements/HAI_Submis...6.pdf that gives support to the expression of all faiths including Paganism. I quote - “We would nevertheless wish to remind the Government that, after the Roman Catholic group, the next largest group one in the most recent census (2002) is the group headed “No religion” (138,000). This group is also the fastest growing group as a percentage of population.” end. I suggest that many of this 138 thousand are Pagan and that to reflect the spiritual diversity in Ireland today that Pagans and Druids must be represented at these talks.
I cannot be more defined until I get a “written outline / direction for the talks” from the Government because what I might say needs to be in context. I am open to suggestions and submissions but I need to remove the current secrecy about the ‘talks’ first and secondly - I need a ‘seat’. May I suggest to anyone who wishes to contribute that I would respect posts from people with real names above aliases. Open discussion on Indymedia is great (my regards to the team and their sponsors for getting it up again) but serious contributions seeking inclusion in any presentation I may make require personal contact - I would of course respect confidentiality.
Well Brian, I am not sure that numbers matter in a case like this BUT (a rather big but)
As somebody said "There is no place on the State Population Census form for Pagans or Druids to declare. I would guess that there are many thousands who practice some form of Earth Based Spirituality / Paganism in Ireland today."
And as somebody else pointed out, PROBABLY the Jews aren't considered a non-religion (and there aren't a hell of a lot of Jews in Ireland -- almost surely LESS than the number of Pagans).
In addition a lot depends upon who you decide to call a Pagan. Is self identification vital or does practice decide? Christianity is a religion of "faith" so you shouldn't be called a Christian unless you believe/self identify as such. It's a little trickier when religions of "practice" are involved. In other words, say some person calls themselves a Catholic but never passes by a sacred well without leaving an offering. They are ??????
Is Druidry pagan in the modern sense ? The word "pagan" was hurled at the Gaullish Druids by the Romans, coming from the Latin word "Paganus" meaning "country dweller", "oafish fellow" , or in today's terms "redneck". This does not describe the intellectual ancient Druids of Ireland of the professional classes here, where no roman ever stood.
I am Druid but not Pagan. Why use an extra word "Pagan" to describe me who is already described as Druid ? I, and many more, both in Ireland and England, answer to the word Druid only but not Pagan.
Therefore my fellow Druids and I cannot be classified as Pagan by the Irish Government against our will - and we would object to such description, as is our right. Personally I would go to the High Court, even the Supreme Court, to assert my right not to be called by a name that I feel does not describe me, that is, Pagan. For I am Druid, and Druid of Ireland only.
There are some Druids here who wish to be called Pagan. There are others like me who do not. The word Druid suffices, so why add another layer ?
Most wiccans in Ireland - and wiccans here outnumber Druids by at least ten to one, are happy to be described as Pagan. And then we have what I call the "pagan-pagans" and last but not least, the militant pagans. I do not say, mind you, that I am "a Druid". I state that "I am Druid" in the same way as another person would say "I am Christian" or "I am Moslem".
The ancient religion of Ireland was Druid. It was the early Roman Christian missionaries and the monkish chroniclers who referred to us as Pagans.
I do not like the word Pagan, especially with today's modern Pagan connotations, layers built on the offensive early meanings.
I am Druid, that is descriptive of me and my fellows. To me there is no need for me or for my co-religionists to adopt the word "Pagan", especially as we don't want to.
Con's site, druidschool.com:
The Meaning of Pagan
from Latin paganus, meaning = "a country dweller" or "civilian" as given to us in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism It was a put down term used by Romans. I would suggest that no free Celt or non Roman ever refered to him / her self as Pagan because they probably never even heard the term expressed. The Romans had two class distinctions - Patrician (upper) and Plebian (lower) and out side this was Pagan (country dweller).
Today, Pagan means something new and this is expressed by many people in as many different ways as possible. This is opposite to ‘rule by a book’. Paganism is the term most used to decribe those who profess and or practice some form of Earth Based Spirituality. Its original use was to denigrate those who were not aligned to the Roman Empire because it ment "country dweller" and this was seen as inferior to a “town dweller”. Today's politically corrupt equivalent is "tree hugger" and this is used to denigrate those who are not aligned with the "growth economy" that destroys our natural resources and ancient monuments as well as our special heritage and culture. Pagans today can be called 'tree huggers' because they love and respect trees and nature.
In the idea that ‘country dweller’ is bad and ‘tree hugger’ is bad we can see ‘who’ is calling out the judgement - those who imagine themselves above others - the dominators. But, in the idea that ‘country dweller’ is good and ‘tree hugger’ is good we can see partnership with Nature and Source. To be here is to live outside the matrix with a new adventure every day.
Gaelic Pagan
If you were to walk a path beside a stream that leads to a river that feeds a great ocean - then let that Path be Gaelic, let the stream be Celtic and let the river be Galatic and the ocean be rhe Cosmic Tradition and may you enjoy every step of the dance of life.
XXXXXXXXXXXX xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
I believe the fight for recognition from our government is a bigger one that the fight between different kinds of pagans, or spiritual people.
Most pagans are aware that not all Pagans are Druids, just like, not all Druids are Pagan.
Its an umbrella term, that serves the purpose of these talks in a functional way.
In one of her earler speeches, it may have been her First Inaugural Address, the President of Ireland, H.E. Mary McAleese stated that she represents every single religion in Ireland, even though it have only one member.
President of Sinn Fein Gerry Adams has on several occasions referred to his objective of a United Ireland consisting of "Catholic, Protestant, Dissenter and Pagan".
You might look up/research such references with profit.
Personally I have no objection to Pagans being represented in any State talks, providing they do not seek to give the impression that they represent me or my fellow co-religionists in Irish Druidry (non-Pagan).
Then there are Christian Druids that I know , who get their inspiration from the ancient Culdee Christians etc., such as those led by Father Daragh Molloy of Inis Mean, Aran Islands.
And how are you going to classify the thousands of New Agers, Celtic Reconstructioists etc., most of whom are not Pagan ?
Would the wiccans go in under Pagan, or would they want their own classification, to which they are entitled ?
And even if we all got together who would speak for us ? For a start Druid Connors (I have never met him) would be totally unnaceptable to Druids outside the pagan community, that is, Druids who are "Druid-Druids" and who therefore do not and will not accept Pagan representation at any level.
Then there are many Christians (mostly Catholic) who like to use Druidic practices, rites, calendars, beliefs etc as an add-on to their Christian religion, many of whom belong to my own Order.
There are members of the gay community, male and female, CDs, TVs etc who have gravitated both to Druidry and to Paganism as those religions/belief systems seem to be the most supportive and understanding of their sexuality - and they are.
Now how does one man expect to represent all with objectivity and impartiality to the Irish Government - Certainly not Con Connors with his own line on Irish Druidry, that straight away he refers to as Irish Pagan Druidry, also as Celtic Druidry, thus shutting out those who have a devotion to the gods and goddesses of pre-Celtic Ireland, also his history of militant opposition to the Catholic Church, his rancour with wiccans,and his history of divisivness in Irish Druidry and among Irish Druids..
I do not state that with malice or rancour, but these are the facts that, if he is a bearer of Truth, that Mr. Connors will surely not deny.
Having stated that, Mr. Connors is entitled to a new beginning, he is also a man of strength (though not diplomacy) and is suitable for initial tough hard negotiation, is to my mind suitable to represent Pagans, but not the gentle Druid.
Personally I would favour that excellent lady, the new Archdruid of Tara, Gina McGarry, who is Druid, who is a superb diplomat too, belonging to no Druid Order or Grove, and therefore highly independent, to represent us Druids of Ireland in any possible/forthcoming talks with the State.
Having said all this, it is more important for all of us to establish credibility at street level, to "mainstream" Druidry in Ireland out there among the people and the media than it is to gain any paper recognition from a faceless civil servant in the Department of the Taoiseach.
I wish you well in your quest.
P.S. There are about 70 Druids in total in Ireland at most - how can Mr. Connors have upwards of a 1000 members then ? I saw photos of him in the paper recently (Midwinter Solstice) with a dozen people at Newgrange. Come off it, Mr. Connors !
In view of an important email I received just before lunchtime today proposing a conference of Irish Druids, from a Druid who I know to be close to Druid Con Connor, and in view of the desirability of Irish citizens having a right to equal representation before the law, whether we are Druids or not, before our Government, whether we are Druids or not, and in view of the fact that Druid Con Connor has taken up the cudgel here on behalf of us all, the Druids of Ireland, now seemingly the "Untouchable Caste" of our own country, I think it is important that we have some Druid to plead our case immediately, not only to our own Government, but under the European Convention of Human Rights, I hereby nominate Con Connor to do and to take up all such challenge on behalf of the Druids of Ireland.
Sinithe
Micheal MacCraith
Ard Drui na h-Eireann, ODI.
Though he is a tough hard uncompromising personality (perhaps to the good in inititially presenting our case) and though I have differed with him in the past, on behalf of all those who elected me as far back as 1993,and again in 1997, as an hereditary Druid of Ireland, on behalf of all those I have stood in circle with on Tara and elsewhere throughout the Land, he will have our full and total support in this his grand endeavour to free us from oppression and suppression, such as we have survived all across the centuries, and which still exists today in the form of exclusion by our own Government.
Ar son Drui na h-Eireann, Ar agaidh leat, Drui Con O'Conchubhair !
Micheal.
Cill Choinnigh ,
1u Feabhra 2007.
Forgive typing error - the last headline should have read:
SUPPORT FOR DRUID CON CONNOR AS OUR REPRESENTATIVE..
Micheal MacCraith.
I have informed the Archdruid of HOOD, the Hibernian Order of Druids, Melvyn Lloyd, over the phone about this project. His response is fabourable so far, but he is studying the proposals here as put forward by Con. I have also been in touch by email with ODI Archscribe Gabriel Murray just now and he too is now considering support for this project.
Most have been in bed all morning - after Brighid's Eve Ceremonial on the Hill of Tara all night last night, consisting of a Womans' Druid Circle consisting of 200 women Druids, led in ritual there by Archdruid of Tara Gina McGarry, in spiritual rites to Save Tara - also attended by 60 male Druids, for most of the night.
They will respond here later on. Positively, I hope.
What other church/religion in Ireland could put out that many devotees, 260 in all, on a Hill for hours through a cold black winter's night ? Not many other religions, I'd guess !
Micheal MacCraith
Ard Drui na h-Eireann.
Some years ago I had searched the true meaning of the word 'Pagan' from this old Latin Dictionary.
It described 'Pagan' , meaning 'rustic' or 'unlearned'.
Is this not a contradiction in terms to describe oneself also as a Druid who is understood to be wise?
Yes, "Number 6" you are right, veteran Irish Druids do not, and never have, called ourselves, or anybody else "Pagan" for the reasons you give. Because it is still, rightfully, understood in Ireland, as a term of abuse, as it has been for thousands of years since the Roman legions in Gaul roared "Pagan F****R ! " at the Druids of Gaul as they slaughtered them in a veritable genocide.
Then the only place I actually heard "Pagan" used in Ireland, again as a term of abuse was on the streets of Belfast when Catholic and Protestant youths roared it at one another as they rioted, battling each other.
But it became very fashionable in England some years ago, and most of those Druids here in Ireland that you will hear using "Pagan" to describe themselves are of English origin.And they are trying to force it on the native Irish Druid community - which is very wrong of them.
No Irish Druid uses it . It's an English import, an English fad.
Ta an ceart agat !
Another clue that the ancient Irish never used the term "Pagan" is that the only word in Irish for "Pagan" is "Paganach - obviously a direct loan word to the Irish language, a borrowing by the Irish language for a word, indeed a concept it never had, either directly from the Latin "Paganus" or the English derivative from the Latin "Pagan" ! I don't know of any other "word" in ancient or modern Irish for Pagan. An unbeliever, for instance, would, I think be "duine mi-creidimheach" ( a person without belief) , and a Druid could hardly be called that !
"Drui" is the singular in ancient Irish, meaning "a Druid"
and "Druid" is the plural in ancient meaning "Druids".
To make matters even more confusing the monkish chroniclers of the 7th and 8th centuries, who were viciously anti-Druid, refer in their manuscripts to the Druids, what pitiful few of them were left by then after all the Christian slaughter, a virtual holocaust, as "Magi", meaning in that context, mere workers of magic, sorcerers, in order to deprive the Druids of their elite professional, almost royal, status among the Irish. "Pagan" was used by the early monkish chroniclers to pour scorn - and death - on the Irish Druids too !
For instance:
"Moreover the triumphalist author of "Felire Aengusso" around 800 AD notes with grim satisfaction that, "the great kings of the pagans wail ever in burning: the hosts of Jesus without a fall, they are joyous after triumph" (prol. 61-4), and illustrates that even in Ireland, "the faith has grown, it will abide until the Day of Judgement: guilty pagans are carried off, their forts are not inhabited (173-6) by contrasting the desolate Druid sites of Tara, Cruachu, Aileann and Emain with the bustling monasteries of Ardagh, Clonmacnoise, Kildare and Glendalough. "
It is indeed a great credit to our Druid ancestors that they survived about 350 years of being hunted down like dogs and exterminated, from the mission of Patrick, circa 450 AD at its height, to 800 AD. It is a testimony to their, and to our, absolute belief in Druidry as our religion. Even then the Fili carried it on a thousand years or more in Ireland, particularly among certain families and clans.
It will take more than a faceless bureaucrat in the Department of the Taoiseach to put an end to us after all of that !
Micheal MacCraith
Ard Drui na h-Eireann.
not only would you seem something other than synchretically confused fantasists who most probably read Lord of the Rings too much as children - but Goscinny would have written an "asterix in Eirinn".
He didn't.
So you and the Bhagwan, and the tarot readers & all the gurus who are easily found in the back pages of health magazines don't get to meet the state in interfaith discussion.
- You need a few thousand (or even a hundred) more believers.
- you could do with a real world address and agree in your next world address.
- you need some decent songs.
30,000 years abusing drugs & mutilating little animals to tell fortunes. & now they're shunned by the state.
There are about 5,000 adherents of pagan/wiccan.Druid religions in Ireland, of which the minority are Druid, mostly because Druidry requires so many long years of intense hard study to make the grade.
On top of that there must be at least ten thousand New Agers.
Enough to change the government, or to save it, in a few months time !
If I may just state the following regarding the Preamble.
The Preamble in the 'blue book' is not the real verbatim translation from the original Irish Text , so here it is.
In the name of the most holy Trinity which is the wellspring for all authority and to whom , since it is the final end for us , not alone actions of People but actions of States are directed ,
As we , the People of Ireland , as humbly admitting the extent to which we are obliged to Jesus Christ , our Lord God , who comforted our ancestors in every hardship in which they were for hundreds of years ,
And as we gratefully remember how bravely they fought ceaselessly to achieve the independence which is the intrinsic right of our Nation ,
And as we are setting out to advance the Public good with Wisdom and integrity and Charity as is appropiate , so that we can insure his nobility and his freedom to every individual , to establish a proper societal life , to give the restoration of her unity to our Country , and to make mutual alliance with other Nations ,
We are hereby adopting this Constitution , and enacting it to ourselves.
The above is the proper translation from the original Irish Text. But the 'blue book' has very much watered down the rights of all.
The Irish Text prevails , which makes this Draft the one to be quoted in open Court or wherever at will.
Now , given the fact that Joshua Ben Joseph.....commonly know as 'Jesus' who came as a Christ figure , a figure of 'LIGHT', Cristos, Crishna , the same stuff in the different cultures and belief systems etc. , is really one of the many Prophets who come as Christ figures , and continue to do so, maybe every day...could be that little Granny with her two words that 'stop the press' , it must be aknowleged at least that this guy (Jesus) is the closest thing to principles of the likes of the above Preamble and should at least be respected.
It is my belief that if there is one out there that can come near Josua Ben Joseph in his antics , then please step forward and proclaim some trippy belief system that can equate same.
It is also my belief that the Preamble does in no way play bias to any other beliefs.
We should realise what it is we have , rather than have not.
Our Glass is always half full rather than half empty.
This Constitution is a TOOL for all of us to use.
It protects every one of us. We should protect it.
As the Preamble is not an Article of the Constitution, it would not require a referendum to delete it, would it ? Perhaps an Act of the Oireachtas at most ? Who can legally change it, and by what legal device ?
However, as it suits the Catholic, as well as the majority of the large Protestant churches, I fear, Con, that it's there forever, barring a successful Pagan Uprising.
And they say that the 1916 Rising did have a distinct Druidic fervour about it - especially the atmosphere in and around the G.P.O.
To quote Yeats from memory: "Did not the shade of Cuchulainn walk through the G.P.O ?"
And the founders of this State erected the statue of Cuchulainn over the G.P.O. - at least they got the message, even if the Department of the Taoiseach still hasn't got the message here in 2007.
We should not only have a pagan representative - we should have a Druid representative too, seated in a Place of Honour, with Druidry being the spiritual inspiration that brought on the Celtic Revival that brought on the 1916 Rising that brought about this State.
What about Michael D. Higgins T.D. as the Druid Representative. Solved !