Assembly Election Results - Norn Iron

by Red Jed Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:52

GOSH.
You're obviously one of those cops that DAWC supporter mentioned above, coming on here to slag off the good name of McCann.
After all, who else would have anything bad to say about St. Eamonn.

by anon Tue Mar 13, 2007 09:23

Actually I admire McCann precisely because he always refused to join the chorus of Provo bashers - unlike many of his SWP comrades in the south who were only too happy to chime in with criticisms while offering no real-world alternative themselves.

However, admiration for McCann aside, I think he's shot his bolt. He got a good vote, but it would be very odd if he didn't. He stood in a highly politicised community; he has an excellent record of involvement in the civil rights movement (never became a Stoop Down Low moderate); has been central to highlighting the Bloody Sunday injustice; has a national profile with a regular column in Hot Press (youngish people would know him as well as vets of the civil rights period); he's regularly on radio and he has a column in a northern newspaper. In fairness, he had everything going for him.

I would like to see McCann elected but, realistically, on this performance, it will never happen. He should have run years earlier than he did and he'd probably be an MLA by now. At this stage it's too late.

by observer Tue Mar 13, 2007 09:11

She will be lucky to break 6/7% in Dublin Central. This is a constituency where no-one gets elected without a record of hard graft on the ground. McDonald does not have that either but she is supported by two well known SF Councillors who do. The Greens will not be at the races. Prediction: Ahern, Gregory, Costello, Fitzpatrick. Unless SF get massive boost from the Northern thing. McKenna's transfers could be vital in boosting McDonald over Fitzpatrick if it is close.

by GSOH Tue Mar 13, 2007 08:56

Eamonn McCann is not the "saint" or the great left that he is portrayed by some on this thread. Remember he openly supported the provos sectarian armed struggle for over 25 years. Leave that aside, McCann's days of electoral politics are numbered. He is 64 and will be heading towards his 70s by the time more elections may happen in the north and his vote is in decline.

by Pushkin Sun Mar 11, 2007 15:45

Certainly interesting about McKenna, she has a profile but I wonder if she will really do that well. DC has always been a cold house for the Greens. I remember working for Cuffe in 1997, it looked as if he was doing well, but he only got 1,200 votes, Simpson didnt do much better in 2002. I just cannot see McKenna taking votes off of Mary Lou in Cabra, or the Inner City, McKenna might do well in more middle class areas but Mary Lou will poll well there as well.

The polls taken so far are telephone (land line) polls based\ on smaller samples, which tend to exclude more working cass and younger voters. They are also based on smaller samples and have a marin of error as high as 7%.

by Bertie watcher Sun Mar 11, 2007 15:44

FF are talking up McKenna as a more suitable altrnative to McDonald, since they now believe they can't be certain of taking the last seat with either Cyprian Brady or Mary FitzPatrick. They believe that McKenna will be easier to get rid of in a few years than a Shinner.

The second and third seats are expected to go to Costello of Labour and Independent Tony Gregory.

by jolly green giant Sun Mar 11, 2007 15:24

Information coming from constituency polls all over Dublin suggests that the Green Party are doing very well and gaining ground at the expense of FG. In realtion to Dublin Central the latest I heard was that McKenna was actually ahead of Mary Lou McDonald and could well see off the SF challange and win a seat. One of the big advantages for the Greens is that they pick up transfers across the board and if a candidate is in the ballpark for winning a seat this helps enormously.

by Pushkin Sun Mar 11, 2007 15:21

"So, Mary Hanafin is only 25 years old ! She'll love you for that Pushkin. "

I said she lived in Dun L for 25 yrs, read the comment.

"Des continued as the best fundraiser Fianna Fail ever had after Charlie was gone - and he continues to advise in that capacity. "

Untrue.

"What I meant about Mansergh is that as a foppish Anglo type, he is the very antithesis to a Tipp man in every way (my father comes from South Tipp,"

I think you are upset because Mansergh is a\ member of the Church of Ireland. Foppish Anglo is code to cover your sectarianism. Hes from Tipp and his family have farmed there for centuries.

by Paraic Sat Mar 10, 2007 20:48

So, Mary Hanafin is only 25 years old ! She'll love you for that Pushkin.

Des continued as the best fundraiser Fianna Fail ever had after Charlie was gone - and he continues to advise in that capacity.

Let's see how Patricia McKenna does in Dublin Central. I forecast that she'll be wiped out. Greens have no staying power because they are the doyens of the upper middle class, the type you vote for when you get too wealthy to vote for the PDs (You vote for them as a status symbol when you're filthy rich, or, perhaps to show that you're an Intellectual above all ordinary mortals).

by Paraic Sat Mar 10, 2007 20:38

What I meant about Mansergh is that as a foppish Anglo type, he is the very antithesis to a Tipp man in every way (my father comes from South Tipp, I know every inch of it and almost everbody living there - for over 50 years).

Yes, I knew he stood there in the last election - he didn't get elected, did he, for the very reason I give here.

And he won't get elected this time out either.

A small bet, perhaps ?

by Pushkin Sat Mar 10, 2007 20:33

"Mary Hanafin was elected because she is daughter of Senator Des Hanafin, the greatest fundraiser the Fianna fail Party ever had, so she was nominated and pushed, shoved and strapped down into her Dail seat by the entire DL Fianna Fail organisation. "

Paraic, stop digging. Des lost all power once Haughey got control, he didnt get any back later. You didnt even know about her connections with Dun L.

"And then made Minister at Moneybags Daddy's request"

Thats just silly. You know nothing about FF. Bertie would laugh at Des.

"The Green Phenomenon erupted in the North on Thursday ! Ciaran Cuffe is no exception ! It can erupt anywhere at any time. But like Patricia McKenna, they usually don't last. "

Patricia lasted 10 years as an MEP.

You honestly haven't got a clue

by Paraic Sat Mar 10, 2007 20:20

Mary Hanafin was elected because she is daughter of Senator Des Hanafin, the greatest fundraiser the Fianna fail Party ever had, so she was nominated and pushed, shoved and strapped down into her Dail seat by the entire DL Fianna Fail organisation.

And then made Minister at Moneybags Daddy's request

The Green Phenomenon erupted in the North on Thursday ! Ciaran Cuffe is no exception ! It can erupt anywhere at any time.

But like Patricia McKenna, they usually don't last.

It may be of cold comfort to you as I proclaim Drogheda , not DL, to be the most clannish part of Ireland.

by Pushkin Sat Mar 10, 2007 20:04

"For instance Martin Mansergh, the Taoiseach's adviser, is floating into South Tipperary, not the kind of man that the South Tipp people would identify with - but they'll vote for him and elect him. "

Mansergh is from South Tipp, he stood there in the last election and came close to being elected. His family has lived there for hundreds of years.

"Tipp Woman, born, bred, reared and lived in Tipp, the Minister for Education Mary Hanafin is TD for Dun Laoighaire, a place not noted for its friendship towards strangers ! Sorry D.L."

She built up her profile in the constituency gradually, has lived there for 25 years and has been a TD there for 10 years.

Dun L also welcomed the stranger Ciaran Cuffe at the last election.

"I could go on all night."

Please don't. Its obvious that you know very little about politics either north or south.

by Doire Boy Sat Mar 10, 2007 19:34

I don’t think that anyone would question that Republicans are welcome in the SWP or DAWC, both organisations encompasses a number of religions and social sects.
A large number of them ARE Republicans. I don't think the previous comments are attacking the DAWC, but merely looking for the reason why E.McCann's votes were down this time. The DAWC now has members like G.Donnelly whose reputation past and present is well known, especially in Derry where he's hardly regarded as a pillar of the community. When E.McCann is seen to stand beside him then is it any wonder people start to question him impartiality and even his ethics? Put yourself in the position of someone from the Protestant community. Or a devout Christian. What effect would this have on your support? I think what the previous poster(s) was getting at is that some people have a problem with this and may have removed their support because of it, hence the reduction in votes. Now I've said that I suppose I'll be branded as a member of the elite PSNI Indymedia Disinformation Squad. Its not as if they have anything else to do, is it?

by Paraic Sat Mar 10, 2007 19:31

For instance Martin Mansergh, the Taoiseach's adviser, is floating into South Tipperary, not the kind of man that the South Tipp people would identify with - but they'll vote for him and elect him.

Tipp Woman, born, bred, reared and lived in Tipp, the Minister for Education Mary Hanafin is TD for Dun Laoighaire, a place not noted for its friendship towards strangers ! Sorry D.L.

I could go on all night.

I have known hundreds of Donegal people, and still pal around with some. Forty years ago I used to think they were a bit clanish, but it's a changed place today.

They are sick and tired of all the scandals surrounding the Good Doctor, they are browned off with the domination of the Blaney Mafia, the only TD they actually like is Cecilia Keaveney.

Anyway, everybody in Donegal knows Eamonn already, he's been in all their livingrooms countless times on "Questions & Answers" etc on RTE TV, he is taken quite seriously by most all people in the Republic (well, about two-thirds) , he is trusted though people might not agree with all he says, above all he is liked , popular and considered "one of our own" wherever he goes.

In Donegal N.E. he would not have to face bigots or bigoted political parties as in the North, just simple downright corruption, political chancers of the highest order, and three FF politicians who toe the line on Shannon, Iraq, Rossport, the Destruction of Tara, do I have to go on ?

Why is it that I get the distinct suspicion that people don't want Eamonn to succeed and be elected as TD for Donegal North-East ?

Could we have the real reasons for your reluctance ? Thanks.

by Gary Don Sat Mar 10, 2007 19:08

Sorry
by Paraic Sat Mar 10, 2007 18:32
Sorry, but you're obviously an SF supporter, no harm in that ! McCann would have the entire Irish media, including RTE TV highlighting his campaign non-stop, if he made such a staggeringly newsworthy move. No other candidate would have that massive media coverage.
He would hardly have to canvass, though I would advise him to do so.

No I am not a shinner. merely pointing out the reality of Donegal North East. You obviously know very little about the constituency or you wuldnt suggest that Eamonn could just wander in and take a seat, just like that. There is not a hope of him or anyone else doing that, much as I admire the man and his politics.

by Paraic Sat Mar 10, 2007 18:48

Now that's what I call a highly principled stand - and he would be doing Ireland a favour by ridding her of one of those gangsters !

by Ex-Siptu member Sat Mar 10, 2007 18:42

Eamonn is a highly principled individual and a man of deep integrity. His consistant socialist undertakings have espoused a serious credibility that could be undermined if he ran in Donegal as it could be spun as an act of opportunism.

Political representation at any cost is not the answer.

by Paraic Sat Mar 10, 2007 18:32

Sorry, but you're obviously an SF supporter, no harm in that ! McCann would have the entire Irish media, including RTE TV highlighting his campaign non-stop, if he made such a staggeringly newsworthy move. No other candidate would have that massive media coverage.

He would hardly have to canvass, though I would advise him to do so.

by Gary Don Sat Mar 10, 2007 16:51

Par said that

There are a group of nonentities selected from FG, Green Party, SF and Independents going up against this Magic Trio in the upcoming General Election - even Senator Joe McHugh of Fine Gael hasn't a prayer !

Now, if Eamonn McCann was to drop the SWP tag, and his SEA tag, in fact all his various tags, and stand simply as Non-Party, he might just break that notorious Fianna Fail Donegal Mafia, for that's what they are.

Par - you obviously do not know a lot about Donegal North east. If you did you would be aware that Padraig MacLoichlainn is on course to take a seat for Sinn Fein and could not be descrinbed under nay circumstances as a Non entity.

As for Eamonn having a chance of winning a seat there, thats rubbish. I have great time for Eamonn ut he wouldnt have a prayer in Donegal NE, even less than he had in Foyle. Sorry to burst your bubble.

by DAWC member - Derry Anti War Coalition Sat Mar 10, 2007 16:35 resistderry at aol dot com

I appreciate that there are cops and spooks who keep an eye on Indymedia and post here sometimes but they really have to stop trying to peddle this idea that the Raytheon 9 are SWP or RIRA. Even the establishment in Derry has stopped trying to argue this now. In fact, far from people distancing themselves from it, DAWC has grown considerably as a result of the Raytheon action. Let me quickly remind people that this was not some out-of-the-blue event where people 'broke into a business and thrashed it'. It took place on 9th August as Raytheon guided missile units were being rushed from the US to Israel to be rained down on men, women and children in Lebanon. It was an attempt to expose and stop - even for a few days - war crimes in the Middle East.

The action was organised in a meeting of over 70 people and was a DAWC action. Anyone who was there - and there were a good deal more than 9 people who tried to get into Raytheon - was there as DAWC. Now, if McCann and his SWP comrades were to have said at one of the DAWC meetings that republicans are not allowed to be part of DAWC, Indymedia readers would be the first to attack them as wanting to keep DAWC as an SWP puppet organisation. Also, to suggest that those who are non-SF supporting republicans are all in the RIRA is really silly - any more than to suggest that everyone in the SEA (which McCann stood as candidate for in the election) is SWP. If that were the case then there are several hundred RIRA members in Derry and 50 - 100 SWP members....I don't think so, somehow!

by BIG IAN Sat Mar 10, 2007 16:29

Disaster for who exactly?

For the voters?

For the people of Ireland? of Northern Ireland?

For the democratic process? For the idea that people should have a say in the running of their own affairs?

For the Greens?

For the Alliance?

For the ethnic Chinese Community?

deal or no deal?

by vogelfanger Sat Mar 10, 2007 16:24

It has made me quite dizzy - man with albatross round his neck which he won't let down but as soon as he does it will disappear into thin air - "take these broken wings & flap away you jinx !" :-)

by Par Sat Mar 10, 2007 16:20

The Bogside is almost in Donegal North-East constituency. The constituency is a Fianna Fail stronghold with 3 Fianna Fail TDs filling the three seats there, since young Niall Blaney and the Independent FF Organisation returned to the fold. No other constituency in Ireland, North or South, is such a one-party monolith.

The three FF TDs are:

Dr. Jim McDaid TD, FF
Cecilia Keaveney TD, FF
Niall Blaney TD, FF

There are a group of nonentities selected from FG, Green Party, SF and Independents going up against this Magic Trio in the upcoming General Election - even Senator Joe McHugh of Fine Gael hasn't a prayer !

Now, if Eamonn McCann was to drop the SWP tag, and his SEA tag, in fact all his various tags, and stand simply as Non-Party, he might just break that notorious Fianna Fail Donegal Mafia, for that's what they are.

The Man or Woman who does that will become an instant National Hero.

McCann's the Man !

(What odds, Paddy Power?)

by Paraic Sat Mar 10, 2007 15:55

Eamonn McCann could get more votes, and have a real chance of being elected, in several constituencies in the Republic than he could ever get in Derry, and he knows it.

Still he seems to be so loyal to his native Derry that he sticks to it come what may - and never gets any credit for that.

The SWP is like an albatross around his neck, especially in the Republic where they are despised by one and all, and are real No Hopers Everywhere, and he knows it, still he never lets them down !

Without him they'd disappear into thin air tomorrow morning.

Get sense, Eamonn!

A right battle between McCann and Dr. Jim McDaid TD, FF, in Donegal North West in the Republic's General Election would grab the attention of the entire southern Irish media.

The good Doctor is not well, he hasn't been for years - perhaps Eamonn has pity on him ?

Yes, that's it.

by Lenny Sat Mar 10, 2007 15:28

" How can you be anti-war whan your friends are terrorists"

I presume that question was directed towards everyone that is not a pacifist - which rules out almost everybody on this site and almost everybody on this island and throughout the world.

by Smoke-filled backroom boy Sat Mar 10, 2007 14:43

Right, Dissidents, if you want to wreak electoral revenge on the Shinners, run a Republican candidate in such constituencies as Meath West to dash their hopes of gaining a seat there with Councillor Joe Reilly SF Navan, one of their Great White Hopes in the Republic's General Election.

You could also "disturb" their upper middle class pet Mary Lou McDonald MEP in Dublin North Central, while at the same time enjoying the privilege of standing up against Bertie on his own home ground ! (There's an SWPer in there already, Brid Smith, a real No Hoper).

BTW You could run Save Tara Republican candidates in both Meath constituencies, Meath East and Meath West.

Eamonn McCann would get a much bigger vote in one of the Donegal constituencies than he ever got in Derry (nearby Donegal North-East).

Happy hunting grounds for the Dissident Republicans would be along the border constituencies of Cavan-Monaghan (Caoimhin O'Caollain TD, SF Dail Leader), Sligo, Leitrim, and Louth ( Arthur Morgan TD, SF Environment spokesman).

Mildred Fox, retiring Independent TD in Wicklow - her seat could go anywhere !

And, of course, with colourful Independent Jackie Healy Rae retiring down in Kerry, anything could happen there too, though FF expect to pick up his seat, you'd never know.

Get out the maps, comrades, and start fishing for your seat.

A candidate for Rossport, of course - and another one in Clare against that little piece of the USA called Shannon.

(The bad news: under the Republic's repressive electoral regulations an Independent needs 30 voters to "assent", that is, to sign his /her nomination papers. Ah sure you'll get them down the Local Pub).

Happy Hunting, it's Open Season on Ministers and TDs !

by ThH Sat Mar 10, 2007 14:40

How many votes did eirigi get?

by Patrick Henry Sat Mar 10, 2007 14:08

No! Call a ceasefire now and begin building some sort of Political Party to challenge the $hinners. The people are no longer interested in war but they need strong leadership who won't shrivel up every time the DUP barks demands.
Let's face it the only alternative at the moment are the $hinners and they know like the SDLP before them that the Republican / Nationalist electorate will vote in large numbers for anyone they see as being in their corner against Paisley and extreme Unionism. For now the only contenders in the Republican / Nationalist camp are $inn Fein even through their leadership would sell their mothers for a place in Government.
As for dissident Republicanism at the moment there is no real leadership there and if they are looking to the likes of Gerry Mc Geough for that then they are finished. You need to start building for the future now or else like FF the $hinners will be the dominant Party for Republican / Nationalists for years to come.

by Daf Sat Mar 10, 2007 13:55

Due to his in depth understanding of all things politcal I would suggest we abandon elections altogether and hand power over to Billy Bob.

by Paraic Sat Mar 10, 2007 13:30

I would advise that the parties you advise to disband wait until after they see how they do in the upcoming General Election in the Republic (about 10 weeks away) before they make any such decision.

The results of any election in Northern Ireland, polarised as it is, hardly form the basis on which to decide the future of any political party, particularly left/socialist parties.

What I would do. Take a break, have everybody take a week off - and then Launch in the South for the General Election, full steam ahead.

Hope this helps.

by Billy Bob Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:59

Socialists and dissident republicans roundly rejected
After 30 years of constant struggle the Socialist party secured less than 500 votes in the northern elections. Clearly it is time for them to re-evaluate their politics and strategy. Such a resounding rejection by the working class must lead you to question what the hell you are doing wrong.

Equally irrelevant to the new reality were the dissident republicans. Republican Sinn Fein candidates averaged 400 votes each less than 1% of the total poll. Hardly a mandate for armed struggle. It is incumbent on the CIRA now to call a ceasefire and acknowledge that for the forseeable future there is no role for armed struggle. Other dissidents fared badly also with Catholic fundamentalist Gerry McGeough getting just over 800(about 2%) swamped by Sinn Fein's three quotas in his constituency. Peggy O'Hara alone secured a respectable vote of over 1700 in Foyle but none the less well out of contention and dwarfed by the Sinn Fein vote.

The republican fringe have no coherent plan , startegy or programme to offer the working class. The only grouping that seem to acknowledge this and be working for an alternative republican socialist approach are Eirigi.

I would suggest that the CIRA and the RIRA both call ceasefires and state publicly that they are on a purely defensive mode like the INLA who are the only army to should a bit of wit on this issue.

Secondly the respective political organisations of republicanism should do some serious questioning about their purpose, the following should simply disband RSF/CIRA, 32CSM /RIRA and the Catholic reactionary fringe groups. Perhaps the IRSP and Eirigi may at some point develop a revolutionary programme and strategy and pose a plausible alternative to nationalism but I would be suprised.

As for the Socialist party and the Workers party both hammered in the elections for the umpteenth time. Bothe projects are a failure, re evaluate and move on.

I haven't commented on the SEA as they don't even raise a socialist let alone a revolutionary programme at all.

by Seamy Sat Mar 10, 2007 00:28

Barry. You make a good point about people voting for Peggy O'Hara instead of Eammon McCann. It was quite a respectable turnout for Peggy considering this was her first time running and who she was up against.
But I disagree that McCann's vote did not drop due to the Raytheon protest. This actually generated some negative publicity in the local press and I know some people have since distanced themselves from McCann and even the DAWC, partly because the destructive nature of the raid on Raytheon went against their ethics and partly because they have a problem with the political backgrounds of some of the other Raytheon 9. It seems although he had the best of intentions that this particular protest may well have cost him some votes.

by BK Sat Mar 10, 2007 00:15

the last two commenters have hit the nail on the head. there is massive opposition to water charges out there among ordinary people and this sentiment has little to do with either pbp or the socialist party. the simple fact is, and it comes up again and again and again in every meeting involving community workers and other people who want to be active in a fight--that despite mass sentiment against the charges there is NO mass campaign at this point.

despite this, the depth of opposition has forced every one of the bourgeois parties to make vague pledges that they will get rid of it. as someone pointed out above in relation to the dup, they talk out of both sides of their mouths. 'we will get rid of it,' and then 'we want meters for those most vulnerable' and then, today, from gregory campbell, 'people should only have to pay for the water they use.' they are all, every one of them, cynically using their constituencies. only a well-organized campaign seriously rooted in workplaces and communities can expose them. that does not exist at present, though there are very positive beginnings that have been made in some areas. pbp, sea have without question contributed to that.

the situation is this: the vast majority of ordinary people across the sectarian divide are dead set against water charges, and many of them can't pay anyway, whatever the main parties do. in this context, the sp's insistence that the campaign is them and them alone is absolutely destructive, and criminal. they tried the same thing in the runup to the iraq war, spent most of their energy trying to wreck the thing, but were so marginal they could not obstruct things.

there is real potential for a serious fight over the charges, one that exposes the double-dealing of the main parties and opens things up for a broader confrontation with the new labour agenda and transforming the rotten situation we find ourselves in. i would not insist that anyone who wants to fight needs to be part of cawt, but it does seem to me that in terms of well attended meetings at the grassroots, in terms of a resonance, we won't pay just doesn't cut it. the sp vote does reflect that, whether they want to admit it or not. i would support anyone working to pull things together at a local level, and would urge people to attend meetings no matter who is doing the work on the ground. but at this point the absence of a united campaign which pulls all these activists into common work is a liability, and will make it much easier for hain etc. to ram this through. over to sp to tell us whether they will suspend the sectarian posturing in the interest of building a campaign that can WIN..

by L1919 Sat Mar 10, 2007 00:04

Barry said
...Its much more likely Derry republicans who previously voted for him(McCANN) as an alternative to PSF voted for Peggy OHara this time .....

Yeah McCann got 32 % of O haras transfers but a further 24 % went back to Sinn Fein!
While RSF will have to investigate their small support base, in west Belfast 20 % of Geraldine Taylors votes went back to the provisionals. Of course they have had more embarrasssing episodes down south where up to half the RSF vote have gone back to the provos. Seems like some of the RSF support aren't reading Saoirse as closely as they should!

by non-payer (personal capacity) Fri Mar 09, 2007 22:30

The fact that non payer talks about the potential for a mass campaign three weeks before the introduction of charges is an indication of the total failure of the SPs much vaunted campaign of non payment. No doubt this shameful situation will be put down to everyone else in ICTU and other campaign groups who stood idly by and were only shamed into action by the heroic sacrifices of the SP.
The bullshit about 70,000 pledges has been shown up for the sham it is by the pitiful number of votes cast for the SP in the recent election. The petulance displayed by the SP towards other non payment campaigners who wished to join in the demonstration organised by SPat the end of March typifies the malign nature of the party. Despite the fact that their last mass rally attracted about 100 people the SP dont want anyone else to march in Belfast, in what could be a genuine mass demonstration, unless they prostrate themselves and admit that only for the SP no one would have heard of non payment.
SP translated into Ulster Scots means Ourselves Alone which might explain why they cant bear the thought of anyone else being involved in a non payment campaign.

by ok so answer the question Fri Mar 09, 2007 21:28

to pour bile on other groups who are fighting against water charges?

by non payer Fri Mar 09, 2007 20:31

If the WWPC is a genuine campaign with people in it who are not just in the SP - are you for real! You obviously no nothing about what is going on the north. The We Won't Pay Campaign has got over 70,000 people to sign pledges not to pay the water charges. The We Won't Pay Campaign has groups established all across the north, it is having a conference tomorrow in Belfast and the slogan We Won't Pay is now synonymous with the whole issue of water charges. WWPC has already spoken to CAWT about one campaign, you should ask them why it hasn't happened. The main reason why the Northern Ireland Committee of ICTU (NIC-ICTU) has called for non-payment is because of the work of SP members in NIPSA and SP members on the NIC-ICTU. If it wasn't for the work of the SP on water charges and the We Won't Pay Campaign the prospect of a mass campaign of non-payment wouldn't even exist.

by My group is better than your group Fri Mar 09, 2007 19:35

Surely a genuine attempt to work together is never conditional on an instruction to a group to dissove and join your group. It generally means taking the strengths and ideas of both groups and working to create an alliance of the two. If SP are genuine about having a united movement against WC then maybe it is not a conducive tactic to use inymedia to publicly abuse CAWT, rubbish a decent anti water charges vote in the elections and insist on the dissolution of CAWT into WWP. Did anyone EVER consider phoning up members of CAWT or SWP and saying let's have a meeting to see how BOTH GROUPS can work together. Do you really think that CAWT will be won over by the public mudslinging and begrudging of SP members? If WWP is a real group of people outside the ranks of the SP then are you not ashamed to have your own members engaging in this publicly embarassing attack on another anti water charges group and using WWP to do it.

by Barry - 32 csm Fri Mar 09, 2007 19:20

Its highly doubtful McCanns vote dropped due to the Raytheon protest . Its much more likely Derry republicans who previously voted for him as an alternative to PSF voted for Peggy OHara this time .
Im quite embarassed that despite canvassing at the doors for 2 different candidates I wasnt even registered to vote myself .

by Really Fri Mar 09, 2007 18:45

"the police must also be able and equipped to deal with the problem of anti-social behaviour"
Does that include Eamonn McCann breaking into businesses and trashing them or is he exempt because he's one of the lads?

by 2p worth Fri Mar 09, 2007 18:29

Maybe the Sp's should have been a bit more trendy than play to the law & order agenda. Quote from the SP in South Belfast news:
"the police must also be able
and equipped to deal with the
problem of anti-social behaviour
that blights so much of South
Belfast. Vulnerable people such
as pensioners must be able to
feel safe in their own homes.We
need a police service that is accepted
by and accountable to all
communities"

Seans manifesto:
The police are not a solution to the real problems arising out of anti-social behaviour.

Iraq & Bush & Blair come second after the water charges in PBP manifesto. The SP don't emtion it. We also defend migrants & young people, take up poverty & housing and global warming. The manifesto ends on the impact of such issues on women.

by PL Fri Mar 09, 2007 17:49

Public Meeting with Gerry Adams tonight in Dublin - 7.30PM Royal Dublin Hotel O'Connell Street.

by partyofone Fri Mar 09, 2007 17:13

well done anna lo she got my vote, the peoples republic of south belfast will have to wait guys. Cant believe the SP and SWP are still at each others throats after all these years.

Victory to the moderates

by mic Fri Mar 09, 2007 16:36

"he swp has 6 members in Belfast" - lie.
"Communities against the water tax doesn't exist outside of manus maguire and the swp" lie
"Communities against the water tax doesn't even call for non-payment, they only make suggestions for how you can put off paying the tax if you can't afford it!!!!" lie and more lies

by Springfield Mucker Fri Mar 09, 2007 16:35

"People in the south should remember the antics of the swp about the bin tax campaign, they had phamtom groups all over the place, this is no different, sorry no it is worse because apart from a few stalls and 2 public meetings they have done nothing at all. Communities against the water tax doesn't even call for non-payment, they only make suggestions for how you can put off paying the tax if you can't afford it!!!!"

People in the north should remember the antics of the sp about the bin tax campaign, Once the campaign really started they lasted a month in their Fingal stronghold. The We Won't Pay Campaign isn't there anymore. Even they are paying now.

by Cliftonville boy Fri Mar 09, 2007 16:24

I am not suprised that McCann did alright, lets not get carried away, he expected to win a seat but instead his vote went down. But him and the other swper are going to get votes in nationalist areas they are after all left republicans. The swp has 6 members in Belfast - fact. Communities against the water tax doesn't exist outside of manus maguire and the swp - fact. People in the south should remember the antics of the swp about the bin tax campaign, they had phamtom groups all over the place, this is no different, sorry no it is worse because apart from a few stalls and 2 public meetings they have done nothing at all. Communities against the water tax doesn't even call for non-payment, they only make suggestions for how you can put off paying the tax if you can't afford it!!!!

by Neutral outside who just happens to know all about the SWP - Definitely None Fri Mar 09, 2007 16:07

That really is too much to stomach.

Now we have someone posting as a Dublin anarchist who just happens to be sympathetic to the SWP and also just happens to have gathered the impression that they are strong in Belfast and somehow has just happened to notice that they are standing in the Queens Student Union elections? And this Dublin anarchist not only posts from anonymity (handily enough given that the few dozen anarchists in Dublin pretty much all know each other) but for some reason can't come up with a more imaginative name than "anarcho"? Someone seriously expects us to believe this?

As Mark P said above, the SWP are as dishonest in the little things as they are in big ones. How stupid do they think we are?

by anarcho Fri Mar 09, 2007 15:44

I notice that the swp has 3 candidates in the SU elections in queens uni in belfast. I have no real time for them politically but to be honest, from a far(well a hundred miles down the road) it looks as if they are fairly strong in belfast. Id like to see them post more of their activities like this on indymedia, to gte a more ballanced view of the left in the "wee north". They may have more fronts than members but to say they havent even enough to make a branch just seems a tad silly. For this to be true, mitchill, and the 3 students in queens would probably have to be the only members in belfast.
http://www.qubsu.org/index.cfm?do=side&id=73

by swpper Fri Mar 09, 2007 15:37

mark- i dont really have the time to reply to ur genuine Qs, mayb later. But just to say, this stuff about the swp bein small in belfast etc just isnt true. In fact it has grown. according to indymedia contributors it has collapsed, this just isnt true, in fact swp members joke about it, its a laugh.

by Mark P Fri Mar 09, 2007 15:15

How sweet. A range of anonymous contributors have come out of the woodwork just to whine and complain about my brief contribution to the thread. It's good to know that our friends in the SWP hold me in such high esteem!

Briefly on a few of the points raised:

1) I did say that the People Before Profit Alliance does not exist in Belfast. I stand by that statement. It has no life distinct from that of the SWP and if the SWP dropped it tomorrow it would never be heard of again. You know this. I know this. Anyone reading this thread who has been around the left at all knows this. It may not be considered polite to say it, but I feel no need to be polite to anonymous sectarians. The same by the way is true of the PBPA nationally. You never know. It might take off. It might develop a life of its own. But to this point, it has not and that's a straightforward statement of fact.

2) I did not say that the SWP does not exist in Belfast. I said that it "barely exists", which may overstate the case a little but not by very much. A few years ago the SWP had four functioning branches in the city, now it barely has enough members for one. It is, in Northern Ireland as a whole, probably the fifth largest of the far left groups, all of which are in the greater scheme of things tiny. Belfast is not alone in that, by the way. It is clear to all with eyes to see that the SWP is significantly smaller now than it was at its peak. The student groups are gone or exist only in name, the number of claimed branches nationally is down by a third, the paper slipped to first one every three weeks and then once a month and the once relatively high visibility is much reduced.

But frankly, I have no desire to continue this kind of "my Dad is bigger than your Dad" argument. It is little short of embarrassing. I'd rather stick to the politics.

3) Yes I did read some of the literature put out in support of Mitchell's campaign. It struck me as being basically left liberal in tone, with no mention of his socialist beliefs. I did not however read his manifesto, so feel free to provide a link. I am open to persuasion on this as on much else. I'm amused by the way by B.K.'s predictably petty dishonesty in recounting the PBPA and Socialist Party vote tallies. The relevant figures were 774, 248 and 225 respectively and not 969 or "under 200". As dishonest in the small things as they are in the big ones. I'm equally amused to see an SWP member of all things try to mock other groups for poor vote totals. It seems cruel to remind you of the votes received by a number of SWP candidates (actually standing as SWP rather than under a front name) in the last local elections in places like Waterford and Shannon.

4) I notice that amongst the abuse nobody has replied to a straightforward question about the water charges campaign. Unless you count another anonymous contributor who thinks that a press release amounts to an active campaign. So once more, in case you missed it: Why precisely are the SWP trying to set up rival campaign groups to already existing ones, rather than simply joining the existing We Won't Pay Campaign?

by And there's more Fri Mar 09, 2007 15:03

Count Details
Seats: 6 Quota: 4828

Candidate Party %1st Pref Count 1 Count 2 Count 3 Count 4 Count 5 Count 6

Adams, Gerry* 17.8 6029 6029 6029 6029 6029 6029
Attwood, Alex* 9.0 3036 3149 3150 3197 3235 4779
Dodds, Diane* 10.8 3661 3661 3661 3671 3677 4166
George, Rainbow 0.2 68 69 69 - - -
Lowry, John 1.3 434 440 440 453 453 -
Maskey, Paul 12.9 4368 4759 4774 4784 4822 5075
McCann, Fra* 12.6 4254 4314 4345 4354 4378 4647
McCann, Jennifer 12.6 4265 4295 4666 4668 4694 4849
McGuinness, Daniel 0.4 127 132 133 - - -
Mitchell, Seán 2.3 774 789 790 830 969 -
Ramsey, Sue* 14.0 4715 5267 5267 5267 5267 5267
Taylor, Geraldine 1.3 427 429 429 437 - -
Walsh, Margaret 3.2 1074 1086 1087 1110 1157 -
West, Louis 1.7 558 559 559 580 582 -

by BK Fri Mar 09, 2007 14:45

eb

can you get us the same for the west?

by EB watch Fri Mar 09, 2007 14:42

I can't space it properly but somebody with time and patience might be able to work it out.

Count Details
Seats: 6 Quota: 4233

Candidate Party %1st Pref Count 1 Count 2 Count 3 Count 4 Count 5
Agnew, Steven 2.2 653 658 852 870 984 1064 - - - -
Bell, Joseph 0.4 107 108 118 119 - - - - - -
Black, Tommy 0.8 225 228 247 248 - - - - - -
Browne, Wallace 10.7 3185 3417 3453 3462 3488 3542 3608 3609 3709 3734
Chambers, Glyn 1.4 427 430 483 494 516 - - - - -
Copeland, Michael* 5.3 1557 1567 1655 1817 1835 1951 2068 2074 2743 2999
Empey, Reg* 14.0 4139 4231 4620 4620 4620 4620 4620 4620 4620 4620
George, Rainbow 0.2 47 47 52 53 - - - - - -
Long, Naomi* 18.8 5583 5583 5583 5583 5583 5583 5583 5583 5583 5583
Muldoon, Mary 2.8 816 817 1021 1039 1098 1115 1307 1903 1934 -
Newton, Robin* 7.9 2335 3202 3241 3250 3270 3316 3356 3360 3497 3517
Ó Donnghaile, Niall 3.6 1055 1056 1072 1072 1088 1088 1124 - - -
Purvis, Dawn* 10.3 3045 3114 3308 3336 3403 3456 3612 3654 3843 4208
Robinson, Peter* 19.0 5635 5635 5635 5635 5635 5635 5635 5635 5635 5635
Rodgers, Jim 2.8 820 884 971 1078 1105 1191 1281 1284 - -

by Smart arsed Belfast sceptic Fri Mar 09, 2007 14:37

The fact is that the "dissidents" as people have known them have usually only been apparant in dribs and drabs congregating at various graveyards around easter time. With that their numbers never came to more than a handfull in each county.
Bear in mind that their hardcore activists, paper sellers etc probably didnt even get to register this year so bad was their timing of announcing their intention to run candidates (they are new to electoralism after all) and yet they still pulled over eight thousand voters across the six counties most likely dissafected republicans who understand electoralism and did get registered.
All this points to a scattered and unorganised undercurrent of alternative republican thinking, and i would be very suprised if from this election initiatives are not launched to focus those voters minds.

by Wee man Fri Mar 09, 2007 14:27

"resurrecting the long moribund "Communities Against the Water Tax""

How come the following quote is on the RTE website:

The question we have for all the political parties, but especially those who are saying they will scrap the tax once the Assembly is up and running, is: why are you telling people to pay?
Communities Against Water Tax spokesperson Manus Maguire challenges the parties to support a campaign of non-payment of Northern Ireland's water charges when they are introduced in April.

What makes you a leading authority on the state of the water tax campaign? It wouldn't be head office would it?

by bretonnotfrench Fri Mar 09, 2007 14:20

I'm not Irish but Breton, i 'd like to know what was the point of view of IRSP about the laststormont election...so ????

by pat c Fri Mar 09, 2007 13:51

"tried that. its the best breakdown of the vote by count, but i don't see anything on transfers, the kind of stats that made it possible for red cultist (above) to detail transfers in east belfast."

I think its about the best online (free).

The print version of todays Irish Times gives the transfers and it will give more results tomorrow. If anyone has a paid sub to the IT the transfers shd be on line.

by BK Fri Mar 09, 2007 13:36

pat c.:

tried that. its the best breakdown of the vote by count, but i don't see anything on transfers, the kind of stats that made it possible for red cultist (above) to detail transfers in east belfast.

mark:

you're in deep and digging deeper. i know that the 'swp is irrelevant' stuff is necessary to sustain the morale of your membership in the face of such poor results, and it might even fly out here for people at a distance, but it won't wash for anyone with the slightest grip on the situation in belfast. if 969 votes is a 'pretty good result' for a group that doesn't exist, how does a vote of under 200 measure for an organisation whose modus operandi is to constantly inflate its own influence, and to attempt to sabotage any campaign that it does not lead?

tiny and tinier: fg had it right. the important difference is that the tinier of the two is infected top to bottom with foaming-at-the-mouth sectarianism.

by elect Fri Mar 09, 2007 13:29

i suppose it depends on what vote you take. Mcanns vote is up on the last election. The westminster election. But down on the last assembly election. Make your own mind up. I suppose a real assesment would be to say, good vote, but no real change

by dawkins Fri Mar 09, 2007 13:26

does the sp exist???? did this election really happen. Who knows, who knows

by Barney Fri Mar 09, 2007 13:26

Check your figures Derry Hair.
The SEA vote in Derry is actually down.
In 2003 the Vote was 2,257. This time its 2,045.
Not much of a difference, granted, but enough to show that McCann may have peeved a few people with his recent antics over Raytheon, where he allied himself with the 32CSM and IRSP. Mind you, he may have picked up a few more disillusioned Republican votes if Peggy O'Hara hadn’t stood. All in all a disappointment for the SEA, at least in Foyle.

by soc Fri Mar 09, 2007 13:23

of course you have read mitchells manifesto havent you Mark????? so that you can make the assesment that it is liberal. Pbp doesnt really exist and now as Mark p says the SWP doesnt exist either. Mark, what have you based this on???? seems funny to be honest. But even you would admit, Good vote for a party that doesnt exist. wudnt you say???

by Curious Fri Mar 09, 2007 13:01

If it is so well established and the 'real' campaign, how come at the last demo all the platform were members of the SP? Didn't seem very inclusive to me. Have the SP learnt any lessons from the recent 'We Won't Pay Campaign' in the south or is it going to be another slogans are us campaign.

by Marlboro man Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:34

Catherina Ruane was laid into over the policing issue on the BBC. The hypothetical chestnut question was asked whether Sinn Fein would report to the police if it came across Dissident Republican activity. Was annoyed at Noel Thompson for facilitating the farcical line of questioning in such a partisan manner. Not withstanding the obvious 'crystal ball' element of such a question, every positive (and I use the word loosely in policing terms despite its magnitude) move by Sinn Fein is diluted by this sort of rhetoric.

On another note, the DUP candidate on the panel has endorsed 'water metering' and that 'someone' has to pay. Then Gregory Campbell was interviewed attacking water rates as a form of double taxation.

I fear the DUP isn’t as cohesive as it pretends to be, particularly taking Paisleys meltdown on camera yesterday into account.

by Mark P - Socialist Party (personal capacity) Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:27

Another grim election, as is usual in the North. Anyone who can watch an election where Ian Paisley crushes all before him and not feel slightly ill has a stronger stomach than I.

As far as the left is concerned, the openly socialist candidates got low votes as you would expect in this kind of sectarian headcount. The Socialist Party improved slightly on what are low tallies by any standards. The Workers Party continued to decline. McCann's personal vote in Derry was the exception. It seems to be fairly stable, even though it isn't growing.

I'm a bit amused by some of the squabbling about the People Before Profit Alliance candidacy. I'm broadly pleased to see a 19 year old standing on a non-sectarian and broadly left-liberal platform get a reasonable if unspectacular 2% of the vote. It is I think a bit disappointing that he didn't stand openly as a socialist however. I don't think there's too much more to be said about it.

The comment someone made about the People Before Profit Alliance not really existing was unkind but essentially true. The SWP itself barely exists in Belfast, which makes this a pretty good election for it. Personally I'm less interested in their electoral outings than in their current antics in trying to split the anti-water tax campaign by resurrecting the long moribund "Communities Against the Water Tax" rather than joining the existing We Won't Pay Campaign. This includes holding seperate meetings in areas where there has long been a We Won't Pay Campaign group in existence. I would be genuinely interested in hearing an explanation of just what it is they think they are at?

by pat c Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:12

Go to http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0309/nielection.html
Click on constituencies on the left sidebar. You may then access each constituency results on a count by count basis.

by BK Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:42

Red Cultist:
Can you tell me where to get access to figures on transfers like the ones you cite above for SP? If its easier, can you tell us where Sean Mitchell's transfers came from? My reading of it is that nearly a quarter of his votes likely came from the Shankill, but I may be wrong, and would appreciate any help.

Red Realist (sic):
1. I don't get the argument about the SP vote going down because you're busy with water charges. I would have thought this was a reason why you should expect your vote to go up in working-class areas. Please explain.

2. The bit about PBP vote coming from liberal trendies etc. Do you have a basis for this, or is it just sectarian bile? I'd like to see the figures, but I do know that we had a very positive response to canvassing focussed on working-class areas and the big estates. And that the launch meeting in Clonard drew in a handful of trade unionists, local residents not otherwise affiliated with the Left. And that the only substantial meeting that's been held in the Shankill on water charges grew out of the campaign. Get a grip, lose the sectarian blinkers that seem to come free with an SP membership card, and have a good look at what's going on here.

3. The bit about the PBP not really existing, etc. Let's be clear. The campaign was about laying the foundations for a fightback that involves activists and others beyond the ranks of the SWP. There is no question at all that PBP has managed to do that. Although the vote results are better than respectable in the context of a headcount (969 including transfers, according to RTE), the real test is whether we've helped to galvanize people for a fight against the water charges, etc. The next couple of months will tell, but I doubt there's anyone with a grip on reality who would deny that the campaign has given it a very big boost here.

FG writes above, 'no doubt the SWP will as usual talk up their result as a wondrous achievement' etc. Look: in the context of a headcount in a very tough constituency Mitchell's vote IS significant. I'm happy enough to acknowledge that the SWP is 'tiny' here, as you suggest (and SP 'tinier'). The left generally is marginalized. But there are deep pockets of anger among working class people across the divide, and real opportunities in the months ahead for the left to begin to break out of that isolation in a serious way. Mitchell's campaign was an important achievement that needs to be built on.

by Paraic Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:02

With a vote like that Eamonn McCann should go abstentionist and refuse to recognise the Northern Assembly next time round !

by 1916 Fri Mar 09, 2007 09:59

It was a proto-capitalist campaign of personal enrichment and power politics
based on ignoring the spirit of socialism .

SF have failed to provide effective opposition in the Dail- indeed they have
failed to support the communities in their thrust for power.

It will not translate in the 26 counties- we watch aghast as they move into the centre
and await the emergence of true socialist egalitarians.

It is upsetting that the majority of socialist voters did not abstain and suceeded in creating
an undifferentiated and utterly boring wee capitalist state in Northern Ireland based
on old rows, old formulas, bigotry and the ususal 50/50 drum banging horsehite.

The list of collaborative FF/SF dirty deals is ongoing:-

We want to know who killed Donaldson?
We want to know about Mafiocracy?
We would be very interested in the deals between FF/SF right down to the timed release
of one of the Mc Cabe Killers

You are tub-thumpers who sacrifice engagement on political issues to dead politics
in an era of global destruction and war .

The renewal of secratarianism in the face of serious ecological issues
is utterly meaningless. What a waste of time , but with war-mongers guaranteeing
the Northern Irish Peace process, it is hardly unexpected-

by Derry Hair Fri Mar 09, 2007 09:57

BEFORE
Eamonn McCann, of the Socialist Environmental Alliance (SEA), is attempting to build on his respectable showing in 2005; he polled 3.6%, or 1,649 votes, in the last General Election despite an obvious tactical squeeze and remains a factor in Derry politics.

AFTER
The Socialist Environmental Alliance said they viewed Eamonn McCann’s securing of a respectable 2,045 first preferences plus transfers, as a good foundation to build on for the future.

396 votes more? A 24% increase in the Socialist Vote?

General Election 2005: Foyle
Party Candidate Votes % ±%
Social Democratic and Labour Mark Durkan 21,119 46.3 -3.9
Sinn Féin Mitchel McLaughlin 15,162 33.2 +6.6
Democratic Unionist William Hay 6,557 14.1 -0.8
Socialist Environmental Eamonn McCann 1,649 3.6 +3.6
Ulster Unionist Earl Storey 1,094 2.4 -4.5
Rainbow Dream Ticket Ben Reel 31 0.1 +0.1

by historian Fri Mar 09, 2007 09:48

Congratulations to the SP on defeating Rainbow George. A stunning victory for the workers and youth!

by John Fri Mar 09, 2007 09:44

To Terry. Good analysis and possibly true. You are correct that the nationalist vote used to be much lower, about 35 per cent back in the 60s, 70s and 80. It then increased sharply to about 42/43 per cent by the late 90s. In fact it reached 45 per cent in the 1999 Euro election in N. Ireland, its all-time high. Based on that trend it was widely predicted at the time that nationalists would be in the majority in N. Ireland within 15 years from then (i.e. around 2012). My point is that, for reasons that are not entirely clear, that trend has come to a halt and the nationalist vote has not increased any further since the late 90s. Why?

by Mike Fri Mar 09, 2007 07:07

"Those nasty unionists are all sectarian but us nationalists are as pure as the driven snow"

What a pile of steaming horseshit !

At least its good to see Anna Lo winning a seat for Alliance (the only non-sectarian party in the assembly -unless the Greens can scrape a seat or two on transfers)

Good to see Northern Ireland electing its first ethnic-minority MLA

(Although technically everyone in NI is a member of an ethnic-minority but thats another story)

by ...PBP..............wbelfast Fri Mar 09, 2007 05:57

I challnge somone to answer that !!!!!!

we

did

immense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by mic Fri Mar 09, 2007 03:15

"you might realise that there is massive sympathy out there for the work and politics of the SP and socialists in general, but that it won't be reflected in first-preference votes in sectarian head-count elections"
yes but unfortunately for you and despite your rhetoric, the two respectable left votes came from sea/pbp not sp. The one vote in the west was more than all than the sp vote put together
y
y
y
y
y
y
y
y
y

by mic Fri Mar 09, 2007 03:07

"And with recent statistics showing 79% of the West Belfast population lives in the most deprived area in Northern Ireland, he may attract a respectable number of transfer votes"
so said the belfast tele before the election
but of course wev just found out from an sp supporter that it was a middle class vote, in west belfast, on an anti privitisation platform. Glad i found out.
Congrats on the sp "working class" vote in east and south belfast. i dint no the proleteriat had shrunk so low

by joe Fri Mar 09, 2007 02:57

"and in West Belfast they got a large middle-class/trendy/liberal vote because the Greens weren't standing"
could you please prove this through relevant statistics please. or is this this just hard feelings. I hope not
West belfast has huge amounts of poverty. Any socialist would hope that the electorate would respond in kind, with a vote for a left candidate

by Terry Fri Mar 09, 2007 01:59

It certainly shows how delusional Connolly’s view of Irish Catholics was, but in fairness he had a hard cross to carry and you would need something to keep some kinda optimism up…

“the Catholic workers, have been as fortunately placed for their political education as they were unfortunately placed for their political and social condition”
“rebellious tendencies, zeal for democracy, and intense feelings of solidarity with all strivings upward of those who toil.”

The whole history of the man’s political life shows this wasn’t the case.
In his native Scotland Irish migrants invariably supported the Home Rulers, who Connolly detested, not labour or socialist candidates.
In Dublin the I.S.R.P. was smaller than the SP, or SWP, or WP, and got similarly derisive votes as those above.
In the United States Irish migrants were the least radical of all ethnic migrant communities, their conservatism was even a common place stereotype, while the opposite was true of other migrants.
In three countries Connolly failed to interest the Catholic Irish in socialism.
There was one great success story, the ITGWU, which by the time Connolly died, had virtually collapsed, with far more of its (ex) members serving in the British Army, than in the 1916 rising.
Ireland, north or south, is, and generally speaking has been, a markedly more conservative country than any other in Western Europe. It has never even elected a left-reformist government.

His bleak view of Ulster Protestants is a lot more realistic, but ignores the evidence opposing his view, which does exist, and which he, partly, highlighted elsewhere (agrarian secret societies in the late C18th, United Irishmen, - see ‘Labour in Irish History’, and in Connolly’s time - first Labour elected rep in Ireland, relatively extensive unionisation).

“Imagine this state of matter persisting for over 200 years and one realises at once that the planted population – the Protestants – were bound to acquire insensibly a hatred of political reform”

But whatever about most of the years Connolly was writing about, that simply isn’t true, the most progressive overtly political mass movement in Irish history was based, largely, on Ulster Prods. Which doesn’t suggest “bound” for anything.
Indeed that was a movement, the United Irishmen, that elsewhere, Connolly greatly over-estimated, both in its radicalism and in its potential for success. So he wasn’t consistent.

In any case Connolly’s writings on Ulster are probably his weakest and most scanty, well he wasn’t too great on rural Ireland either.

by Cinicí Fri Mar 09, 2007 01:16

I watched the body language of Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley Junior on the tv and it spoke volumes about the futility of these elections. There isn't a hope in hell of these people working together successfully. All their shouting and optimistic cheers for themselves today will all be in vain, for nothing will come of it. I had to laugh when the news reporter intimated that it was progress that Ian Paisley Junior and Martin McGuinness could stand so close to each other (neither looking very happy) although still not speaking. Yes, Paisley Senior and McGuinness are all smiles among their own clann, but when they have to go into a room and work together, then the smiling will stop and they'll find out, what they always knew, there'll be no meeting of minds, no reconciliation, just the same auld battle between Green and Orange.

by Terry Fri Mar 09, 2007 01:13

To John, from what I have been reading the size of the Catholic electorate has increased because of a baby boom in the 70s and 80s, this increased birth rate is no longer a factor, and the Catholic electorate will cease growing, at the rate it has grown, in a couple of years. Proportionatly more Catholics vote in ways they would not be expected to than Protestants do, and also proportionatly more Protestants do not vote. I'm not well versed on this subject, but these are the impressions and notions I've picked up.
Also hasn't the Catholic electorate or adult population increased by about 10% in the North over the decades? Didn't it used to be more like a third, or at least a good bit under 40%.
There are apparently other demographic changes, like greater division in residential areas, that is less mixed areas or towns, and more migration of Protestant graduates or university attenders.
Given as the majority of Catholics have always voted in favour of parties that have put internal reform first, over any aspiration to a united Ireland, and Sinn Fein only became the majority party after they started to focus on internal reform, coupled with the fact that no Dublin government is likely to be looking to take the North, demographic changes are likely to contribute to changing the form of governance of Northern Ireland, but not likely to result in the extinction of Northern Ireland.

by Karl (spinning in his grave) Marx Fri Mar 09, 2007 01:00

(And furthermore)

Was the founder of the Irish Labour Party 'sectarian' when he wrote this in 1913, then:

From time to time I propose to give some attention to the elucidation of the problems peculiar to Ireland and particularly to this part of it. For the present, it is sufficient to emphasize the fact that the religious affiliations of the population of Ulster determine their political leanings to a greater extent than is the case in any part of Europe outside the Balkans. But the manner in which this has developed is also unique. I believe that it is true to say that, politically speaking, the Protestantism of the North of Ireland has no parallel outside this country, and that the Catholicism of the Irish Catholics is, likewise, peculiar in its political trend.

To explain – I mean that, whereas, Protestantism has in general made for political freedom and political Radicalism, it has been opposed to slavish worship of kings and aristocrats. Here, in Ireland, the word Protestant is almost a convertible term with Toryism, lickspittle loyalty, servile worship of aristocracy and hatred of all that savours of genuine political independence on the part of the “lower classes”.

And in the same manner, Catholicism which in most parts of Europe is synonymous with Toryism, lickspittle loyalty, servile worship of aristocracy and hatred of all that savours of genuine political independence on the part of the lower classes, in Ireland is almost synonymous with rebellious tendencies, zeal for democracy, and intense feelings of solidarity with all strivings upward of those who toil.
Such a curious phenomenon is easily understood by those who know the history of Ireland. Unfortunately for their spiritual welfare – and I am using the word “spiritual”, not in its theological but in its better significance as controlling mental and moral development upward – the Protestant elements of Ireland were, in the main, plantation of strangers upon the soil from which the owners had been dispossessed by force. The economic dispossession was, perforce, accompanied by a political and social outlawry. Hence every attempt of the dispossessed to attain citizenship, to emerge from their state of outlawry, was easily represented as a tentative step towards reversing the plantation and towards replanting the Catholic and dispossessing the Protestant.

Imagine this state of matter persisting for over 200 years and one realises at once that the planted population – the Protestants – were bound to acquire insensibly a hatred of political reform and to look upon every effort of the Catholic to achieve political recognition as a insidious move towards the expulsion of Protestants. Then the Protestant always saw that the kings and aristocrats of England and Ireland were opposed by the people whom he most feared and from recognising that it was but an easy step to regard his cause as identical with theirs. They had a common enemy, and he began to teach his children that they had a common cause, and common ideals.

This is the reason – their unfortunate isolation as strangers holding a conquered country in fee for rulers alien to its people – that the so-called Scotch of Ulster have fallen away from and developed antagonism to political reform and mental freedom as rapidly as the Scots of Scotland have advanced in adhesion to these ideals.

The Catholics, for their part, and be it understood I am talking only of the Catholic workers, have been as fortunately placed for their political education as they were unfortunately placed for their political and social condition. Just as the Socialist knows that the working class, being the lowest in the Social system, cannot emancipate itself without as a result emancipating all other classes, so the Irish Catholic has realised instinctively that he, being the most oppressed and disfranchised, could not win any modicum of political freedom or social recognition for himself without winning it for all others in Ireland. Every upward step of the Catholic has emancipated some one of the smaller Protestant sects; every successful revolt of the Catholic peasant has given some added security even to those Protestant farmers who were most zealously defending the landlord. And out of this struggle the Catholic has, perforce, learned toleration. He has learned that his struggle is, and has been, the struggle of all the lowly and dispossessed, and he has grown broadminded with the broadmindedness of the slave in revolt against slavery.

James Connolly, Ireland Upon the Dissecting Table

When Protestants have broken with sectarianism in Ireland, they have become republicans.

by anti-apartheid Norn Iron style Fri Mar 09, 2007 00:57

Yeah, it's Black and White - the Catholics are the Blacks and the Protestants are the Whites.

The arrest of McGeough was not the point, it's that it was carried out in the glare of maximum publicity at the Election Count, by the PSNI to show the Catholics that they're the Blacks with the PSNI working for their White Masters.

To put the Tyrone nationalist community in their place and show who's Boss.

Nothing ever changes in the Wee North.

by Karl (spinning in his grave) Marx Fri Mar 09, 2007 00:51

Listen, the unionists are not against a united Ireland because they 'fear' it will be capitalist - they are quite happy in the iron grip of British imperialism. They are against it because they are reactionary sectarian unionists.

The reason for socialism is because it is in the objective interests of the working class. If you cannot connect with the working class politically, there is something wrong with you, not them.

Get a grip - or do you like to condemn yourself to total irrelevance.

by asdf Fri Mar 09, 2007 00:50

The SP-bot got in before me - when he says "A party that cannot appeal beyond one section of the community is sectarian", he's just wrong. It's perfectly possible to be a non-sectarian party and fail to attract any votes from one side of the sectarian divide - that's completely obvious.

by asdf Fri Mar 09, 2007 00:48

I don't think anybody claimed that a nationalist vote was a sectarian vote - I certainly didn't.

However, the simple fact is that the voting patterns reflect, almost perfectly, the sectarian division in the North. Catholics voted, by and large, for one of the two big nationalist parties, protestants voted, by and large for one of the two big unionist parties. What's more, people rallied to the parties that were perceived to be the staunchest defenders of 'us lot' against 'themuns'.

The vote can be almost perfectly translated into the sectarian divisions in society - socialist, environmentalist, centrist and other parties that are not particularly focused on the 'constitutional issue' got virtually nothing. If you can't see this, you are simply blind. It's the most obvious thing in the world.

by RedRealist - SP (personal capacity) Fri Mar 09, 2007 00:43

All the four main parties (DUP, SF, UUP, SDLP) agreed to water charges and implemented job cuts and privatisation when the Assembly was up and running. Therefore, none of them even approximate to socialists.

A party that cannot appeal beyond one section of the community is sectarian. Unionists will never be able to convince the vast majority of Catholics of the Union, for very legitimate reasons, and Nationalists will never allay the legitimate fears of the Protestant population of a capitalist, united Ireland.

Only on the basis of class unity and sociailism can these issues be dealt with through a real peace process based on working class people, not sectarian politicians who actively divide and benefit from it.

by Karl (spinning in his grave) Marx Fri Mar 09, 2007 00:21

The people who write on this page must live in a parallel universe.

They claim to be left, but they repeat the establishment lie that a nationalist vote is a "sectarian" vote. The nationalist vote is a democraic vote. Not necessarily a socialist vote, but a lot closer to it than a unionist vote.

Once you get that through your heads you will start to feel better, and your witterings will have a closer approximation tor reality.

by RedRealist - SP (personal capacity) Fri Mar 09, 2007 00:05

People on Indymedia are great at twisting what you say: -

1. Didn't say people didn't know McCann was SWP, pointed out that SEA does not really exist and is just a 'broader', 'more attractive' name used when convenient.

2. The PBPA does not exist, as some people asked to stand for it in Belfast (against the SP) admitted.

3. In West Belfast, all mention of the SWP and the 's' word was avoided as much as possible.

4. I didn't suggest that some people who voted for the SP would not also be sympathetic to the Greens. I suggested that the Greens not standing in West Belfast allowed PBPA to win many more first preference votes from that section of people.

As for the vote being 'terrible', that depends on your perspective. If you see politics in a very black and white way, certainly, a vote of 0.8% is terrible. However, if you understand that we live in a sectarian dominated society, that the so-called peace process is actually polarising society further, and that the working class movement is still being rebuilt, you might realise that there is massive sympathy out there for the work and politics of the SP and socialists in general, but that it won't be reflected in first-preference votes in sectarian head-count elections.

We use elections to engage with the working class. But we're also doing real work on the ground on issues like building non-payment of water charges and challenging low paying bosses non-stop between elections, something that can't be said for any of those who get elected.

by anon Thu Mar 08, 2007 23:35

If you think these two (covert) SWP votes in the north are a big achievement and equilivant to the SP's electoral success in the south then you're on acid, my friend. McCann might have a shot at a council seat next time, the Belfast lad isn't going anywhere.

Amazing how elections get people worked up isn't it? I'm glad I don't vote.

by FG Thu Mar 08, 2007 23:24

Well done to all the left candidates for the effort.

SEA/SWP 2045 5.0%
PBP/SWP 774 2.3%

SP 248 0.8%
SP 225 0.8%

Now one thing this result must end ONCE AND FOR ALL, and it is this: no doubt the SWP will as usual talk up their result as a wondrous achievement BUT let us have NO MORE, on Indymedia or anywhere else, smug crowing from SP people, on the basis of election performances, on how much closer they are to the working class and how much their superior politics connects with people. NO MORE.

Let us all now be realistic and modest (and co-operate instead of competing):

South: SP tiny, SWP tinier (but only in elections);
North: SWP tiny; SP tinier (but only in elections).

No more silly nose thumbing. It's time to wake up and smell the coffee.

by Paraic Thu Mar 08, 2007 23:16

is that 200 of his friends would have died, either through the drink or old age since the last election

by Paul - WP supporter Thu Mar 08, 2007 23:15

Redrealist says the WP didn't let "the Trots take the field" in South or East Belfast - in other words the party should have stood aside for them. The WP did not stop you "taking the field" - anymore than you have the right to stop us standing. It was precious few votes that either of us took but we both gave the people a choice. I say well done to all left candidates for having the guts to go out there - SP, WP PBP, SEA, etc.

by Doire Boy Thu Mar 08, 2007 22:59

Red Cultist you forgot to mention that McCann lost over 200 votes since the last election.
Maybe the name change fooled them.

by Red Cultist Thu Mar 08, 2007 21:54

As it happens, the SP votes increased by exactly 72 in South Belfast and by exactly 49 in East Belfast. Your claim of an increase of 100 is an exaggeration. More to the point, it's still a pathetic vote - they did worse than ever single one of the dissidents, even the mad ones. Sure, I suppose it's an increase - if you keep it up, you might get a seat by the year 3000.

And, as for the charge against the SWP of getting a trendy lefty vote - the transfer patterns from the SP in South Belfast were as follows:

Greens 89
Non Transferrable 68
SDLP 34
SF 30
UUP 21
DUP 11
Others 24

Almost as many votes went to the greens as went to any other candidate.

* la la la you're not listening *

by A Non Thu Mar 08, 2007 21:54

Come on now- if mc cann won so many votes based on based on his personal profile- then those 2,000 plus people would be very aware of Mc Cann's membership of the SWP- clearly indicated on his literature distributed throughout derry. So the argument of covering up his politics doesn't hold up. Also clear about the politics of Mitchell in West Belfast- on rte tonight- described as socialist, anti war charges and anti war. Good votes for all left candidates. Sp, swp et all.

by RedRealist - SP (personal capacity) Thu Mar 08, 2007 21:21

I'm pleased with the SP's vote. It increased from around 150 in each constituency to 250 this time. And that is despite the general apathy around this election, and importantly, the fact that we ran a much more limited campaign than we normally do because we're concentrating on building the We Won't Pay Campaign.

The SWP ran behind front names, getting a large yet stagnant vote in Foyle, based on Eamonn McCann's personal profile, and in West Belfast they got a large middle-class/trendy/liberal vote because the Greens weren't standing.

The Workers' Party again trailed in behind us in both South and East Belfast, but they're not going to let the Trots take the field. Besides, if they didn't stand in the elections, what the hell else would they do?

by Paraic Thu Mar 08, 2007 21:15

I've heard that more Catholics, who are in cushy jobs courtesy of the Northern statelet, are voting for such parties as Alliance.

by Brian Johnston Thu Mar 08, 2007 21:07

Only 65% of the eligible electorate voted. A sizeable part of middle-class catholics vote Alliance.

On a referendum on re-unification the turn-out would be higher and most likely reflect a truer dermograph on the ground.

by John Thu Mar 08, 2007 21:00

One thing not mentioned in the analysis is the total nationalist vote. From the figures it looks like this is stuck at around 43 per cent, virtually identical to what its been in every election for the past decade. Yet we're told ad nauseum in the media that the nationalist population in N. Ireland is increasing at a much faster rate than the unionist population, so much so that it will overtake the unionist population in a decade. These results cast doubt on that. There are two possibilities for the stagnation in the total nationalist vote: either (1) its a myth that the nationalist population is increasing as a proportion of the total population in N. Ireland OR (2) a small but increasing proportion of the nationalist population (in the ethnic sense) are now voting for pro-Union parties. One of these must be true, although I have no idea which.

by a.c Thu Mar 08, 2007 20:19

the dissidents didnt fair too well at all. there vote is generally low. Apart from peggy o haras campaign they havent made much of an impact.

by Joe Thu Mar 08, 2007 20:15

Terrible result for Paul McGlinchey, wonder what Laurence O Neill will say now?????

by soc Thu Mar 08, 2007 20:08

the sp are in a bit of a sorry state.

by anon Thu Mar 08, 2007 19:26

Should be borne in mind that neither Eamon McCann nor the other SWPer in Belfast ran as 'SWP'. The first used the 'Socialist Environmental Alliance' moniker (fair fucks to him for using the word 'socialist') while the other fella ran under the SWP front 'People Before Profit'.

Good vote for Peggy O'Hara in Derry. I hear Gerry 'the fasc' McGeough has been lifted for questioning about a shooting in 1981. No sympathy for the man but isn't it interesting that it's so-called 'dissidents' that get picked up?