Ireland's Justice System

by Michelle Clarke - Social Justice and Ethics Fri Mar 16, 2007 23:50

Kevin

Profound and troubling is all I can say about your posting. Rushed legislation and dallying with the 'Right to Silence', always concerns me.

David Norris spoke with passion about the Press Council that is being sanctioned by Minister McDowell and the inherent threats within.

Michelle

by Jack Russell - Social Justice Thu Mar 29, 2007 21:15

Just looked over your article.

As the election looms, it appears to be side treked in the light of changes to Legislation......swift and hasty changes that has shaken up the Law Library.

Justice must be seen to be done......

Our civil rights need at all times to be cherished.

Prime Time tonight looks as if it will be interesting as certain Legal Eagles have their view on Justice and legislation.

Jack Russell

by Shane Keogh - none Sat Apr 07, 2007 21:17

Our leaders rush in the Criminal Justice Act 2007, their version of the American Patriot Act which saw thousands of citizens in america of foreign race arrested, shipped to secret prisons and very badly treated.

I cannot help but wonder what bush, blair and Ahern are talking about when they are trying among each other to bring in excessive laws. I believe in my heart, that America is the dominator of the world, and that OUR leaders are answering to them.

Secret Flights in and out of Ireland.
Neutrality gone and help to a warring country.
and all of them introducing unconstitutional laws before we can get a chance to read them.

Three countries so far, Ireland, Britain and USA. The question is Why?

They are using the public's fear of terrorists and gangland criminals to get us to vote ourselves out of rights. I think that the Nazi Party never finished, I believe that they are running the world. next thing you know, Irish citizens will be getting pulled out of their beds at 3am to find themselves arrested over trivial things.

All these legislations are protecting them not us!

by Michelle Clarke - Social Justice and Ethics Sat Jun 09, 2007 21:50

Shane

I have just read your article and agree with you about the US and dominance. Sometimes people refer to Ireland as the 32nd State of the U.S. and when one looks to the Peace Protests over the last few years and the continued rendition of flights through Shannon, it is evident that we are a lap-dog to the US and UK in Iraq. In the absence of the European Union to take a position, we will remain inept to face down the Americans.

Shannon and rendition remains an election issue. Ireland fought for neutrality and maintained same during the Second World War.

Civil Liberties, Amnesty, the people of Ireland with a sensitivity to humanitarianism have and do voice their sentiments. These people include Joe Higgins (for some unknown reason not re-elected in the recent Elections); Senator David Norris; Michael D. Higgins; Caitriona Ruane; Richard Boyd-Barrett; Christy Moore; Gerry Adams; and too many to mention.

Is there a democratic deficit on such an important component of the Constitution of Ireland regarding our neutrality?

I read with some positivism about the trial in Italy of the 23 people involved in the kidnapping of a Muslim which includes CIA staff and also a top American Officer. Italy at least now is standing up to the Americans - and well done to them.

I don't believe McDowell, or Dermot Ahern or any of them in relation to flight inspections in Shannon because the Fianna Fail little devils are tied to the hip with the bigger Devil in America. We don't have neutrality in relation to American Foreign Policy, we just tow the line, like school boys aligned in a classroom. Reading Eamon Dunphy's article in the Daily Mail today, it makes our country a complete charade not counting our democracy.

So let's see Shane, can you see this outfit of Beverley (tax dodger Flynn), daughter of Peewee (receipt of euros 50,000 from Tom Gilmartin i.e. brown envelope); Michael Lowry from Holy Cross who has just settled with the Revenue two weeks ago and who now holds a phd in house extensions from the Dunnes Stores Academy. Next we have the cute whore from Kerry Jackie Healy Rae (hitting 80 with a mad lust for power that is worse than the drink). Of course, we cannot forget Martin Cullen and Transport fame. If this is the potential face of the next Government, God Help us - externally and internally.

The Balance of Power this weekend is with the Greens and well done to John Gormley and co. who did not sell their soul nor the pledges on their Manifesto to Fianna Fail.

I will close by saying that if we do not have a moral duty to the people in our in our shameless mess of our hospitals (MRSI). - do you really think that the people of Ireland have any sense of morality in regard to a handcuffed Muslim being processed through Shannon while some CIA officers wear their uniforms and are guests at four course lunches.

There is no old saying - Evil domains when good people do nothing. This is happening and our media need to stand accountable on this also. Now we have ttwo o magnets Sir Tony O'Reilly and Denis O'Brien fighting for media power - what chance has Ireland on the stage of World Morality, Accountability and Ethics.

One vital last thing - some years ago, Bertie Ahern sent our present Foreign Affairs Minister, Dermot Ahern out to North Dublin to investigate Ray Burkes activities re. councillors and corruption. Our Minister Dermot Ahern came back to Bertie with the word 'Rumours' thats all. Since that Ray Burke has been in prison for 6 months and owes a bill of 7 m. Euros (legal bill). Now what does that tell you.

Quotation: Martin Luther on Wealth. (1483-1546) German Rebel Theologian, opposed to the corruption and abuse of power of the Catholic Church

'God grants wealth to those coarse asses to whom He gives nothing else'

Say's it all.

by Jack Russell - Social Justice Wed Jun 25, 2008 13:44

What is going on? How much corruption exists? Does not suggest that the purpose of the Mahon Tribunal in existence over 10 years questioning politicians, planners, a man like Mr. Dunlop and his input.

Today, we hear the news about Greencore (it always seems to encounter problems with Ethics) and a loss of Euros20 m.......that is now.......what will it amount to when all investigations are carried out and those responsible are sent to jail i.e. if that option is chosen?

Then we have the Gardai going into check out FAS. Why, how, who? If FAS (formerly) Anco, has dipped its hands in the murky water of fraud.....theft, then we have a public body setting a code of conduct that will have to be re-written and the qualification of exprience will have to superseded by aspirations!!!

Who is learning from the Mahon Tribunal? What will be the outcome that will coax people to adopt a Code of Honour and Conduct and return an ethos more consistent with the words of our Constitutions and the aspirations of the Proclamation. Millions have been paid to lawyers, their assistants, the Judiciary relating to the corrupt dealings in the early 1990s. It has involved people at every level of public life and rather than impart a shame upon these people, they rather and their families appear to bask in the limelight. Their petulence and self seeking behaviour successfully delays proceedings further. Can somebody not say Enough? Can somebody not form a judgment and conclude the matter.

Just think of the Federal Law in the US. Financial markets worldwide are in nose dive with mysteries the only possibilities to getting out of the mess created. Life is full of gamblers - we all can gamble, just like we all can drink, speed, take illegal drugs etc. However, we all ought to realise the need for checks and balances in risky functions in Banks, in Government in Companies. Accountancy firms hold audits. Banks are subject to Competition rules. We saw with Enron, one of the largest Oil companies in the world, where certain functionaries that were extremely highly paid, who receive bonuses and other perks. Several years ago, Enron became subject to investigation and are now in prison and some have sentences over two decades.

The recent crisis ....... is caused by similar greed/addiction, but now federal authorities have sharpened their grasp and launhed 45 searches and arrests of people in Banking, Law, Real Estate. The message is getting through, these risk takers for excess profit with ordinary peoples' must be halted and punished severely.

Here in Ireland we have the Law Society and this year we have names slidder in and out of media sources about solicitors in trouble. We have heard of Michael Lynn but there are so many more. Interestingly, a Judge has taken an unusual step and asked to see the bonuses of the bankers who provided Mr. Lynn with loans. This is a good move and as Judge, he is well aware of the significance of the Separation of Powers and indeed checks and balances......realistically they apply in most situations life. The Law Society is self Regulating....This if we could find out the exact number of solicitors breeching the rules, ought to be subject to State Regulation. If law involves such academic standards, and involves the rights of people either by civil or criminal means, surely, it is the in best interest of the Island of Ireland to facilitate people not to be corrupt.

Illegal drugs are one issue but who is buying them? They are illegal recipients i.e. illegal because they have money, work in cash industries, are have no fear and thier disregard allows them to buy from dealers and hence the mess in gangland..........Shame on those who know what they are doing but they are just selfish....

Insider trading is so easy......kids play.....one floor is corporate finance and the next floor are the dealers. The Chinese walls are about 'never the twain will meet'. This is the principal.

Michelle

Quotation
Henrik Ibsen
Racehorse going over a Jump.......
'To seek one's goal and to drive toward it, steeling one's heart is most uplifting!

by Kevin T. Walsh - Social Justice and Ethics: Dignity Sun May 10, 2009 21:07

A headline in the FT caught my attention yesterday......It was about a man.....aged 63 who co-founded the Big Issue. The heading simply states 'A streetwise seller of self-help strategy'...
The salmon coloured paper (patented to the Financial Times) had impressed my attention.

John Bird writes about his First Million. He is the editor-in-chief of The Big Issue, yes, the magazine, we so often see sold in the streets of Dublin. It is the magazine that supports homeless people. This magazine has spawned publications in 40 countries.

John Bird was orphaned at the age of 7.....he became involved in petty crime, shoplifting, housebreaking, arson and he admits, vandalism also.

This is a man who turned his life around in his 20's and it so refreshing to hear and witnesses these stories. He turned to printing and he set up a printing and publishing business.

Mentors, givers to society.......they exist. In the case of John Bird, he met up with Gordon Roddick (The Body Shop). They formed a friendship and The Big Issue was born. It was launched in 1991. Now, there are in excess of 800,000 readers and it helps many homeless people to find accommodation and help people get back into the work environment. He knew Gordon Roddick from the age of 21 when he was on the streets and stealing from antique shops.

The FT reports that John Bird was married 3 times and has children ranging in age from 5 to 42.

Asked the secret of his success.....
'I suppose ''keep it simple'' and make it as sustainable as possible - which means stick to the core business and keep your bottom line uppermost in your mind. If you really believe in what you are doing, you increase the chances of obtaining it.

Recognition came with a short sentence 'I WAS PART OF THE PROBLEM AND I BECAME PART OF THE SOLUTION'. He says that unless you involve people in their own redemption, they will never be redeemed. You need to give homeless people not just the opportunity but responsibility. Natalie Grahm wrote the article in the Financial Times www.ft.com

by Knowledge - Penal Reform and social justice Sat Jun 20, 2009 13:59

Kevin.... I wholly concur with concept of mentoring and restorative justice versus incareration particular in relation to petty crimes so often driven by social deprivation.

Well done to an excellent evening, to the speakers, the organisers, the people who raised issues from the floor, the venue and the reports given to each person who attended.

The Whitaker Committee Report 20 years on: The lessons learned or forgotten is well worth reading. The Whitaker report dates back to 1985.

The Thursday evening presentation was titled 'Re-Imagining the Role of Prison in Irish Society'. Here is a real challenge to people who are concerned about crime in Irish society and punishment. Before we proceed with the Thornton Hall prison, the site for which cost a multiple of the value it would now cost, ought to seriously be considered. This prospect that looms heavily on the shoulders of the Department of Justice and Finance and the taxpayers will need to be underwritten by the potential value from the sale of the present Mountjoy land base and buildings and more importantly the closure of the Women's prison, named Dochas i.e. Hope, and established in 1999. I believe a significant reason for closing this newly built prison is to enhance the sale value of the remaining land. This is a disgrace.

Questions we need to ask?
What reasons do we decide to imprison people? Who and what social category is most vulnerable to imprisonment? How?

Before Thornley proceeds, we need to look to other countries to evaluate the model that justifies Thornley (already over financed). We need to look to Australia, New Zealand, to the Scandinavian countries, to the UK, to Scotland. Restorative justice has been introduced in part in New Zealand, in the US, a variable exists in New York focusing more on the community aspect of imprisonment, with prisons more central to community and costs.

Professor Coyle, Speaker, said that Ireland is at the point where it has the chance to take one of two doorways. The route preferred should be within the remit, context and purpose of prison usage in the 21st century. The drivers ought to be governed by practice and change. A different future would mean different attitudes to imprisonment and less punitive on the socially disadvantaged. We must focus on what imprisonment means. It is highly symbolic in that it is the most severe sanction the State can impose, on behalf of society, to determine that criminal acts are unacceptable. It is a severe sanction.

We need proper facilities, possibly derived from our system of health, to ensure that people with mental health problems, drug addiction, alcoholism and other often undiagnosed complications, are provided for within society and not by default in prison. This ought to be a priority issue for our politicians to consider.

by Knowledge - Penal Reform and social justice Sat Jun 20, 2009 13:59

Kevin.... I wholly concur with concept of mentoring and restorative justice versus incareration particular in relation to petty crimes so often driven by social deprivation.

Well done to an excellent evening, to the speakers, the organisers, the people who raised issues from the floor, the venue and the reports given to each person who attended.

The Whitaker Committee Report 20 years on: The lessons learned or forgotten is well worth reading. The Whitaker report dates back to 1985.

The Thursday evening presentation was titled 'Re-Imagining the Role of Prison in Irish Society'. Here is a real challenge to people who are concerned about crime in Irish society and punishment. Before we proceed with the Thornton Hall prison, the site for which cost a multiple of the value it would now cost, ought to seriously be considered. This prospect that looms heavily on the shoulders of the Department of Justice and Finance and the taxpayers will need to be underwritten by the potential value from the sale of the present Mountjoy land base and buildings and more importantly the closure of the Women's prison, named Dochas i.e. Hope, and established in 1999. I believe a significant reason for closing this newly built prison is to enhance the sale value of the remaining land. This is a disgrace.

Questions we need to ask?
What reasons do we decide to imprison people? Who and what social category is most vulnerable to imprisonment? How?

Before Thornley proceeds, we need to look to other countries to evaluate the model that justifies Thornley (already over financed). We need to look to Australia, New Zealand, to the Scandinavian countries, to the UK, to Scotland. Restorative justice has been introduced in part in New Zealand, in the US, a variable exists in New York focusing more on the community aspect of imprisonment, with prisons more central to community and costs.

Professor Coyle, Speaker, said that Ireland is at the point where it has the chance to take one of two doorways. The route preferred should be within the remit, context and purpose of prison usage in the 21st century. The drivers ought to be governed by practice and change. A different future would mean different attitudes to imprisonment and less punitive on the socially disadvantaged. We must focus on what imprisonment means. It is highly symbolic in that it is the most severe sanction the State can impose, on behalf of society, to determine that criminal acts are unacceptable. It is a severe sanction.

We need proper facilities, possibly derived from our system of health, to ensure that people with mental health problems, drug addiction, alcoholism and other often undiagnosed complications, are provided for within society and not by default in prison. This ought to be a priority issue for our politicians to consider.

by Savant - Social Justice Sun Jun 21, 2009 15:23

I almost forget the Minister's name, yes, Minister Michael McDowell.

Where is the outrage of how this incompetent minister, approximately 3 years ago, paid 37 million euros for Thornton Hall land that is not worth a one million euros now.

Again, this is taxpayers money. Now that we have the big 'R', it is likely that this prison venture will be on hold for years.
prisons are at breaking point and so should be our patience with these idiots that make such ludicrous decisions.

37 million euros is paid for the site. What research applies to Thornton Hall prison? Is it the recommendations of the Whitaker Report? Who is funding the 37 million presently? Yes, the taxpayers but did the Govt borrow for the site and if so, what interest is being paid for this land to stand idle? Would it be cheaper to just write off this as a bad decision and get NAMA to retrieve as much as possible for it. Add to this the transport costs involved for visitors, staff etc and the provision of same. Yes, a write off might be the best option.

Do we want to travel down the road of privatisation of our prisons with a profit motive driver? Have we even seriously considered this option?

Dochas, the Women's Prison, is to be demolished to give a greater value to the whole Mountjoy site. Now that land is devalued significantly, this alters how we approach new accommodation for prisoners and maybe we might follow the route of the Scandinavian countries, with a focus on community input and costs.

The suggestion to stigmatise people who are presently in the Central Mental Hospital in Dundrum by including them in the Thornton Hall site is nothing short of an aberration of a deluded Government who have no comprehension about mental health. If they had, the state of primary health care for people with psychiatric problems would not be such a shambles as it presently is. There is inadequate care or provision for our young people in the education system or by provision of mental health facilities and hospitalisation. We the people by our acceptance of these negligents standards are accountable for the level of crime, addiction, undignosed mental health problems, we face in our Society.

by Knowledge - Charge on Deception, yet clarity of evidence and the case is Tue Jun 23, 2009 15:05

Savant

You speak of the illusion of Thornton Hall and I have to ask 'Will Govt. polich not be but to throw good money after bad' to justify poor decision making in the first place.

Where does all the research point to. We appear to have report following report without any heed being paid to recommendations.

The Irish Penal Reform Trust is perhaps a good place to start. It is a non governmental body. Their recent publication states 'that the IPRT offers another opportunity to promote informed public debate on prison and criminal justice issues; one that privileges evidence based policy making over the media din that all too often is allowed to drown out sensible discussion on criminal justice policy'.

What a loaded aspiration? I ask the question is it born out of inspiration and does this inspiration include people who are called criminals by the law. I refer to people who find themselves under the auspices of the Criminal court, based on proper or improper arrest procedures and summons for trial before a Judge. Who speaks out for these people and why is there voice insufficiently covered by Reports such as that of the Whitaker Report or the recent Irish Penal Reform Trust revision of the Whitaker Commission Report......lessons learned or lessons forgotten.

'Informed debate': Informed debate is an 'ought to be' but who represents products of the criminal stem? I sometimes wonder. I would like to hear the views of Mr. Ray Burke, former Minister for Justice, who had to spend time in prison or for that matter Mr. Frank Dunlop, who is presently a guest of the State and who is a man who studied law while awaiting what the State regarded to be justice relating to planning corruption. Yes, Corruption. The new dimension that stands apart from Deception that merits a myriad of short sentences and a proactive arrest procedure and accusation without sufficient evidence or any time limits. The adage in the case of deception appears to be a far cry from 'Justice delayed is Justice denied'. A failure to repay a deposit to a tenant of a property - a paltry sum of say euros 1,500 euros, can result in many visits to the court, without sufficient evidence to process the sentence, be it prison or a fine. The incredible point here is that those representing the proposed 'criminal' of deception, are earning considerable fees for each hearing and being bound by the 'cab rank principle', they have to fight their case in the belief of his/her innocence.

My question is where have the IPRT drawn in the Gardai and their role in the administration of Justice through the court system in Ireland. We know there is a Garda Ombudsman but this role is categorical related to 'wrongs', like the corruption in the case of McBrearty,