Rally Saturday in support of Miss D

by kaliriffic Thu May 03, 2007 21:35

I'm certainly not denying that some women do feel regret and sadness and need to process it. I never denied that for a second, nothing I wrote even implies that. But some don't, and saying "I wonder if that's really true," about how they feel is what I meant by "denying the validity of their experience."

I think I was a bit too sarcastic to you in my first post and I'm sorry for that. And maybe you don't know a lot of the background-- the idea that abortion is always and must be traumatic, and that women always must have negative feelings about it, is actually an idea with political implications. Anti-choicers in the US, for example, have invented a thing called "post-abortion syndrome" (which, unlike post-natal depression, is not a recognised psychiatric condition.) The recent anti-choice decision by the US Supreme Court was actually based on the logic that women would regret having the banned procedure, so they should be saved from having it! I'm serious:

http://www.slate.com/id/2164512/

Anyway, all I was trying to say is that if someone says she didn't regret her abortion, there really is no reason to express doubt about it, because there is a massive cultural pressure on women to feel guilty about abortions, and even something mild like "I find it hard to believe that" or "are you sure you're not just in denial?" is a way of adding to that pressure.

Peace.

by not pro abortion BUT Thu May 03, 2007 14:57

I'm not in favour of abortion in general, but I find myself on the side of the girl in this case, morally and from a legal point of view.

Differing reports come out as to whether the unborn child has a head at all or is missing part of the brain... a child without a head has no chance of breathing air, so wouldn't live more than a minute once the cord is cut, severing the supply of oxygen from the placenta.

And whether we agree with abortion or not, the fact is that the law in this country would allow this girl to travel under almost any other circumstance. the complication is that she happened to be in protective HSE custody at the time, and the HSE aren't sure if they can or want to allow her to go. I don't think they have the right to stop her, but it's complicated when you consider, as argued above that the HSE probably don't release people from care without much beaurocracy anyway, and especially as in a HSE hospital abortions are generally speaking illegal. I think the HSE should end the protective custody or temporarily suspend it, allow the girl to travel, and provide counselling if she needs and asks for it on her return.

If anyone has any better legal understanding of the arguments in court could they please enlighten us.

And yeah, I think that the social worker who told her there was a court order , when there wasn't one should be forced to explain if that was their own invention or something told by a superior, and whoever made that lie up should be sacked or seriously disciplined.

by r Thu May 03, 2007 14:33

interesting to see choice ireland are using the term "child" in relation to this girl's unborn on their leaflets, willing to acknowledge the unborn's humanity when you are trying to pretend that you are being compassionate towards him/her also in this case,
yous use the word foetus the rest of the time cos that suits you better....cos all youre really interested in is pursuing your own bloodthirsty agenda

by Stuart Wed May 02, 2007 18:38

"The issues in this case are important, but the details should not be opened to public discussion."
Then why name anyone involved?

Because any decisionmaker should be accountable, and this decision (now that it, and the privacy of the woman, is open to such intense public scrutiny) should be accounted for. The same would apply for medical mismanagement, judicial bias or garda discrimination.

The manner in which this human being has been treated (at least as reported) is appalling and a gross invasion of her integrity. I note this from the position of a similar experience in which the HSE afforded me every opportunity of choice and dignified privacy - this woman should have received both.

by not HSE Wed May 02, 2007 14:52

Stuart
The issues if this case are important, but the details should not be opened to public discussion.

Then why name anyone involved?

"I hope someone will name the "faceless beaurocrat" who made the decision to intimidate this woman with threats of garda action and threats against her liberty."

We don't know who made the decision, or if it was one person or more, for all you know it was a committee decision, and the person informing of it was not the one making the decision. Her liberty was already compromised as she was in
I doubt the HSE would allow a 17 year boy old placed in protective care to go to the UK (e.g for a football match), so imagine what some pen pusher would do if a 17 year old said she wanted to leave HSE protective care to go have an abortion... they'd go straight to the HSE solicitor, and then some bunch of managers would get together to discuss it.
The problem is that the girl was in a beaurocracy, not a family or a community, and you can't expect beaurocracy to behave the same way.A beaurocracy is only as smart or humane as its rules, not as smart or humane its staff. So I don't think scapegoating one person will change much. They have to change the whole policy, and as well as few people getting personal and professional lessons from the experience, no other beaurocrat will have to follow that policy anymore.

"I assume the "faceless beaurocrat" will be well able to defend the decision."

The person who made the decision, may not even be the HSE representative in court. I doubt the HSE can defend the decision, but the organisation should be accountable if they intimidated this girl, and if any staff personally intimidated her then that's a different matter, than just following policy.

by . Wed May 02, 2007 14:41

"I explained to you how that kind of response makes it hard for people to talk honestly."
"What kind of language is that?
English. I don't even know what you mean, here. I wasn't swearing."

I don't mean you were swearing, I mean what type of language is "deny the validity of the experience" .Seeing as you like pointing out what is English language, read the sentence again, and look at the verbs. I find it hard to believe., not I don't agree, or "I don't think you can justify you position".
Look at where it says "I'm not calling you a liar". How is that denying anything?
You said that I denied the validity of her experience. I don't know what you mean by that, and I asked you about it, I don't think you did explain it. I've not come across that term, I'm not a psychologist. I didn't say her decision was wrong, or that she was wrong to be happy about it, I just found it a bit strange to pick the word "happy". Don't attack me like I'm the one stopping a 17 year old from having an abortion. I tried to qualify my remarks.

"You... threw a wobbly, to put it politely."

No, I don't think so. I think I asked a clumsy question, but I didn't throw a wobbly. I didn't attack the woman, I wrote what I was thinking, which was that from my experience, which is limited to listening to two close friends telling me about their experience, that they found it hard to talk about what they went through and that they were afraid to acknowledge any regrets they had in case someone tried to guilt trip them.
it's not the type of question,I'd ask someone in need of an ear, and I certainly didn't ask my friends that. I mostly just listened. Perhaps I thought I could ask the question here because the other poster is also anonymous...

It is comments like YOURS... etc

"How?"
By accusing me of being judgemental when I was asking a question not making a conclusion. I may have been clumsy but I wasn't trying to be judgmental. I think i said a lot more in my post, and I didn't compare anyone to anyone else. You are comparing me to SPUC or someone in your short judgemental posts.
Perhaps the woman I was replying to was just as clumsy in using the word "happy" rather than or that it was a decision she can live with and move on from.
For me, happy means happy, it doesn't mean justified, or right, it means happy, as in opposite of sad.
The comment I asked about, might have been confusing for me because of how she wrote it or how I read it as well, so I asked a question,
What I meant was that for me, as a mother, I find it hard to think that when you make a hard decision like this, even if they feel it is justified that there isn't some sadness at the situation. having a child was a huge experience for me, with many mixed emotions, especially as it was unplanned. For my friends, their abortions were hugely emotional as well, and they did feel a sense of loss, which I think mothers can empathise with moreso than someone who hasn't ever been pregnant.

"Some people don't have regrets. I feel they should be able to say that without being doubted, or being asked to explain it. It's not something that needs an explanation."

Again, I wonder if that's really true. Even if it was the right decision, it's possible to have regrets and guilt. That's why I think it's important that IF they need someone to talk to, that they do have someone to talk to, rather than just bury any feelings.
If they don't feel any regret that's their business, if they're afraid to admit regret, then they need a friend /counsellor to talk to.

"Even hoping someone's going to talk about it makes it into a Big Emotional Deal, and I've seen people being guilt tripped by reactions like yours into feeling like there's something wrong with them because they didn't feel bad."

There's a difference between hoping someone will talk about something, and hoping that they have someone to talk to if the feel like talking. I am not trying to guilt trip anyone. Perhaps you are mistaking me for some SPUC people you've encountered. I don't harrass people, occupy family planning clinics or anything like that. I actually think that this girl should be allowed to travel, OR perhaps better, that the HSE gets her into an Irish hospital to terminate the pregnancy for her. If the child doesn't have a head, then there's no point carrying it.

"I've seen people being guilt tripped by reactions like yours into feeling like there's something wrong with them because they didn't feel bad."

Perhaps that is who you are confusing me with. I NEVER judged my friends for having an abortion, and I didn't mean to judge the woman on this post either. I just found it strange that she said she was 'happy". I think I explained myself on that a lot better and more politely than you did.
As for guilt tripping and judging someone for feeling bad, in fairness, I could put the flip side to you, that a woman who has an abortion shouldn't be brow beaten into thinking she should deny that it was a sad experience, even if she thinks it was the only thing to do in the circumstances.

by Stuart Wed May 02, 2007 13:23

The issues if this case are important, but the details should not be opened to public discussion. I hope someone will name the "faceless beaurocrat" who made the decision to intimidate this woman with threats of garda action and threats against her liberty. I assume the "faceless beaurocrat" will be well able to defend the decision.

by kaliriffic Wed May 02, 2007 13:03

YOu said "AS a mother, I find it hard to believe that you are happy about your abortion and consider it the best decision you ever made."
I explained to you how that kind of response makes it hard for people to talk honestly.

You... threw a wobbly, to put it politely.

What kind of language is that?
English. I don't even know what you mean, here. I wasn't swearing.

It is comments like YOURS... etc

How? How does pointing out the ways in which your language was judgemental towards someone who had an abortion make it difficult for other people who've had abortions to speak up? I'm sure you didn't mean to sound judgemental. You did, though.

Anyway if you actually can explain how anything I said is more discussion-inhibiting than "AS a mother, I find it hard to believe that you are happy about your abortion and consider it the best decision you ever made...Maybe you're not trying to put it that way, but your post seems to say that it was a decision with no regrets for you. " please do so. Some people don't have regrets. I feel they should be able to say that without being doubted, or being asked to explain it. It's not something that needs an explanation. Even hoping someone's going to talk about it makes it into a Big Emotional Deal, and I've seen people being guilt tripped by reactions like yours into feeling like there's something wrong with them because they didn't feel bad.

by klsbg Wed May 02, 2007 12:21

"It's all bullshit, i don't get it why go to court or the HSE and not just get in the first flight and head for Britain."

As far as I know, the young woman in question is in the care of the HSE, and they have instructed the Gardai to prevent her from going to England. So she had no choice but to bring it to court

by . Wed May 02, 2007 01:07

I feel that it's not easy for women to talk about this openly.

"Seriously, how on earth could that possibly be? When someone just did, and you denied that her experience was valid because YOU couldn't imagine feeling that way about an abortion?"

What type of language is that? Do you mean I called her a liar, or that her feelings don't matter to me? I said that for me personally it's hard to imagine it. I've never heard another woman give that opinion, and I find it surprising to read that. I was hoping that she would reply about it, and explain more. I wasn't trying to slam her.

"Lots of women don't feel anything other than incredible relief about an abortion.It's not right to make them feel that there's something wrong with that, that they should have felt guilty about it, or to try to persuade them that they felt more than they tell you they did."

And that's plain. I am not trying to persuade anyone of anything. It's comments like YOURS that make it harder to have open discussion about it. Two of my friends have had abortions, and they have regrets, they still think it was the right decision at the time, but it's something they talk about as sad, and that they picked the least bad option, that doesn't mean that they feel guilty, or that I want them to feel guilty.
If any of my friends had an abortion and felt nothing but incredible relief about it, I wouldn't try to take away that sense of relief, and if they spoke to me about it then yes, I would find it easier to imagine.

As for Diana, did you not read that the girl was already in HSE care since February after she was allegedly assualted by her mother, who was described in court as an alcoholic. And the girl found out last week only that the child will not survive long, if at all, after birth. That would suggest that she was planning on continuing the pregnancy while in HSE care, and changed her mind last week after finding out that the child had ancephaly. So, it's not that she went to the HSE looking for help for an abortion.
Diana, you can go off to the UK and have your abortion if you want to, nobody can stop you, the law in this country allows you to do it. What this girls court case is about, is whether the HSE has the right to prevent someone in its care from leaving the country, to get an abortion. It's got nothing to do with whether she planned to get pregnant, whether the timing was inconvenient for her career or studies, whether the biological father is a useless layabout or a model parent, or even how she feels about motherhood in the future. It's about whether a state agency, having taken a woman into protective custody can restrict legal rights that were ganted in a referendum.

As for your own case, I really hope you're not traumatised if you have an abortion, but if you do feel differently afterwards, I hope that you have someone to help you through it. My friends were luckier than some I suppose in that they had people to go with them, and to listen to them when they needed to talk.

by mimi Tue May 01, 2007 22:39

Im not anti or pro abortion. I think every case is different and women should be trusted and supported in making their own choice.

However I do wonder if in this case aborting after4 months of carrying this baby would not be shockingly traumatic for this woman.

I know one woman who found out she had this same condition at a much earlier stage in her pregnancy and I offended her when I mentioned that I thought abortion would be best. She chose to carry the child to term and buried it and mourned as one would for any dead child. For her it was the better choice and she used the 9months to prepare for the death.

The crime here is that the Ms D does not have the freedom to make such a choice. There is something wrong about a vulnerable pregnant woman being imprisioned in a country against her will because she might make a choice that women in other european countries can make freely.

I would hope however that if she wins her challenge she considers her full choice and not just be pushed into abortion because she lacks the support needed to go to full term in such a difficult pregnancy.

It's about her entitlement to have the choice to decide eitherway. And the support before and afterwards to make the choice that causes the least unhappiness to her and others.

by Diana Tue May 01, 2007 22:13

It's all bullshit, i don't get it why go to court or the HSE and not just get in the first flight and head for Britain. I am pregnant, i just found out a few days ago. Monday i am going in to have an abortion, and i am not planning to notify anyone. And believe me i will not be thraumatised, stigmatised or affected in anyway by it. The 'father' is against me having an abortion. He keeps giving me speeches about the importance of life and how bad and cold i must be. I see it this way, a guy who hardly remembers to pick up his phone and call u, or finds the task of minding your dog for 2 hours challenging will hardly change diapers and take care off your baby. I don't want a baby, never did, in a few years maybe. I want to finish college, and enjoy my life. Whatever protection you use accidents happen. Most girls blame it on being drunk or not having protection at the moment. I carry a bag full of condoms and i never drink alcohol.

by lulu Tue May 01, 2007 20:05

The foetus is a part of the woman's body until birth. There is no black & white on this issue, but surely she should have the right to decide on motherhood. It's a bad state of affairs that something resembling a tadpole can have more human rights than an adult woman.

by kaliriffic Tue May 01, 2007 19:33

I feel that it's not easy for women to talk about this openly.

Seriously, how on earth could that possibly be? When someone just did, and you denied that her experience was valid because YOU couldn't imagine feeling that way about an abortion?

Lots of women don't feel anything other than incredible relief about an abortion. It's not right to make them feel that there's something wrong with that, that they should have felt guilty about it, or to try to persuade them that they felt more than they tell you they did.

by . Tue May 01, 2007 16:12

Seeing as you make reference to my posting, I want to reply. I wasn't making a pro-life argument actually. And I said I didn't know what I would do. The parents story in that case shows how very very hard it is to make the decision one way or another. You asked why would someone want to carry a child that is doomed to die. What I posted was an extract and a link to some parents who did, and a bit of their explanation why. And it's not a rosy picture. It's not easy, but it did happen.
If this girl doesn't want to do that, I'm certainly not going to make her.

By the way, you seem to prove J's point (who also seems to be pro-life) in showing that there is too much knee jerk reaction on this topic. Don't give out about Catholic Ireland, and also use the term "Jesus Christ". Just cos you disagree with someone doesn't mean you should disrepect them. "No place for pro-lifers here" is actually way off the mark. This is indymedia, we're not sitting in the girls house shouting at her, and I'm sure she's too busy with more important matters to be reading indymedia right now.

As a mother, I find it hard to believe that you are happy with your abortion and consider it the best decision you ever made. I'm not calling you a liar, I just find it hard to imagine feeling that way about an abortion. Some of my friends had abortions and they know that support their right to choose even if my personal opinion differs. None of them had an easy time making the decision, and it wasn't just because of the attitude of pro-lifers. It's not an easy lifestyle choice, and I don't think it should be presented that way. Maybe you're not trying to put it that way, but your post seems to say that it was a decision with no regrets for you.
I feel that it's not easy for women to talk about this openly. And maybe its different depending on the reason for the abortion. Attitudes in this country are very slow to change and its only now becoming more acceptable to talk about the pain of miscarriage. We hardly have sex education in this country and of course we have so many unplanned pregnancies, (including mine) and rapes (hardly reported) that it's going to take a long time, before we see real change in how crisis pregnanices are handled (and how many we have), just like it took so long to get contraception in this country.
Actually talking about how hard it is to make a decision on abortion, without the whole circus of courts and politicians is next to impossible.
Because this woman will lose her child on medical grounds, will she not be afforded time to talk about it just because of people's attitudes to abortion?
This girl needs support whether she carries the child to term or not.

by .- - Choice Ireland- personal capacity Tue May 01, 2007 15:26

Jesus Christ. That pro-life stuff above is complete and utter shit. This girl is 17, and WANTS to have an abortion. The crappy story you told about those parents WANTED to continue with the pregnancy- see a difference there? What is commendable about that? The people you refer to obviously thought it'd be better for them to do things their way. This girl doesn't. She obviously doesn't want to go through 9 months of pregnancy to give birth to a child who can't survive outside of the womb. Why would she want to do that? She is taking the perfectly sane option.

Pro-lifers, you have no place here. This girl would be having a baby WITH NO CHANCE OF SURVIVAL- what is your point here? What possible reason could you have for wanting here to go through with the pregnancy?

As for Roe Vs Wade, are you still harping on about that? Jesus. I've had an abortion and it was the best decision I've ever made. I'm really happy with my decision. The only negative thing about it has been pro-lifers' attitudes towards me and the hundreds of thousands of other Irish women who have chosen their lives over that of a mistake. (And before you start, yes, a pregnancy definitely CAN be a mistake). Let me tell you again that I am very happy with my decision. Women who aren't happy after having their abortion have felt so because of your attitudes, because of the guilt you have put on them. Again, what's your aim in this? Let's try and make people feel shame? Great old Catholic Ireland. I'm so proud of you.

We will be campaigning for Miss D's right to travel for an abortion. Come to the rally on Saturday. Make SURE this girl isn't forced into the horrific situation of carrying this baby to term against her will.

Meet at 12 noon on Saturday outside the GPO.

by J Tue May 01, 2007 13:42

I'm actually pro-choice, (in limited circumstances) but I don't like the dishonesty and intolerance of your argument.
Yeah, the state is a faceless bureacracy, but not every law on the books is a bad one, or made for bad purposes. Rights are important, and consistency in law is important, as well as law that takes into account the circumstances and allows compassion. The right to life is pretty important, and it's the states job to protect it. As it stands, the law leans towards giving the child every chance to come to term and be born, and live as long as is medically possible. That's not exactly facism in fairness. What we haven't dealt with in this country is the complex arguments surrounding pregnancies where the mother for medical reasons may not want to continue with the pregnancy. It's very difficult to legislate for all the different scenarios that can arise in pregnancy. One mother may find out that her child won't last 5 days , another might be told the child probably won't make it to 5 years. Where would the state draw the line if it were to intervene?
If the law is wrong, at the end of the day, it's the responsibility of the people to get it fixed, but you'll mind that cliches and hard line attitudes are not contributing to an informed public opinion on this.

Hide behind the anarchist moniker all you like and blame the state for everything, but there are reasons for the delay in proper legislation, and one of them is how dishonest the debate is, how skewed some people's opinions are, (hardline religious dogma, hardline feminist dogma, whatever) and how willing we are to let a bunch of gombeens write our laws without much public consultation so we pretty much get the laws and the government we deserve. Which bloc is in doesn't matter too much, if the people are sheep.

What I find most dishonest, is that you say repeatedly it's her body, and write as if there's no other consideration.
An abortion is an operation that kills. It doesn't kill the mother, so there must be another body involved. Avoiding that reality and pretending that a foetus is not something that grows eyes and ears is dishonest arguing, and makes your argument look weak.

I support the right to choose in exceptional circumstances, but stop pretending there's no involvement of the child in an abortion.
No matter how this pregnancy ends, the mother will think about the child frequently over the rest of her years.
She's either having an abortion or having a baby, she's not having her tonsils removed.

On another note, I also find it ironic how so many friends of mine call themselves "pro-choice" but criticise single mothers, especially teenagers. It's hard being a mother at the best of times. It's hard waiting 9 months for a healthy child. Knowing that the child won't live long is a very, very difficult thing to handle, and I'm not sure that we have much to support mothers in that case, (and little media or activist attention on that either?)
None of us is in a position to condemn this young woman for any decision that she makes, but lets see more honesty and compassion in the debate.

by Anarchist Tue May 01, 2007 12:48

Classic example here of an unfortunate individual who is having decisions regarding thier body being made by faacelss state bureaucracy.
Only she has the right to make such decisions regarding here own body.
Lets support this girl and make sure all the election hoo-ha cant escape addressing the issue either.
Cant see the new super-coalition on the block of FG-Labour agreeing on this one.
Wonder who'll flinch from their ideological standpoint quicker...?
Hmmmmmmm.....

by Ciara - RAG Tue May 01, 2007 12:28

Hello all,

After our educational and facinating meeting last night a lot of energy was generated around this. Id encourage anyone who is able to attend to come and show our solidarity with this woman who is experiencing such extreme trauma at the moment.

Thanks to everyone who attended the RAG meeting last night.

Ciara

by . Tue May 01, 2007 12:11

It's very hard to form a solid opinion on things like this, and perhaps people shouldn't form hard opinions. So many self righteous opinions tend to come out in this country on this subject, on both sides.
Some ignore the situation of the mother, others ignore the situation of the child.

I found this website, apparently written by the parents of a baby with encephaly, who knew beforehand that he would not survive. They named him Brann Phoenix McGrath, before he passed away, shortly after birth.
I respect their choice, and it seems a very hard on to make. As a parent myself, I don't know what I would do in this situation, especially if I were a teenage mother, but this is what they did when they had to choose.

=====================
In March of 2001, we started trying to start a family. After a year and a half later of being poked, prodded, scanned and dissapointed, we finally achieved what all of that hard work had been for. We were finally pregnant. Our baby's due date was the 21st May, 2003.
The day before christmas eve, we went in for our 18 week scan - it was our third scan of the pregnancy and we were excited to be seeing our much longed for baby again. But five minutes into the scan it became obvious that something was wrong. There was our baby, wriggling and kicking away like a champion as usual, but something didnt look right. We were told that day that our baby had encephaly. It's brain had developed partially outside of it's skull. A form of spina bifida, they said. Had you been taking folate, they said? Of course I had. Very rare then, apparently. We were told the long and short of it was that we would lose our baby. Encephaly is always fatal. We had a decision to make - go full term and hope for a few precious minutes, or be induced. It was reccomended we be induced as our baby's heart rate had dropped to 90 beats per minute.

On the Friday after christmas, we arrived at the hospital. They administered the first dose of drugs for inducement at 5pm. Throughout Friday, Saturday and Sunday, I felt no movement. On Sunday, the 29th of December, at 4.15 pm, Brann Phoenix McGrath was born. The name Brann is gaelic for "spirit of eternal youth". He was handed straight to his mum, and he was beautiful, perfect and very still. 10 seconds later, despite a fatal illness, despite having been through two days of contractions and drugs, despite having a low heartbeat, and despite having been born at 19 weeks, and definitely against all odds, he reached up a tiny little hand, and kicked out his feet. For a precious 15 minutes, his mum and dad got to hold him and watched while he amazed them and the nurses with his sheer strength and determination until he just seemed to get tired and stop.
He had his daddys huge hands and feet, and his daddys length - he was going to be very tall! And he had his mummy's long fingers and toes. He was, and is, loved out of this world.
He was beautiful, and precious, amazing and strong. He is our little celtic warrior.
We love you and miss you, so much, our baby boy.
xxxx Mummy and Daddy

by Gerry Tue May 01, 2007 11:43

Abortion is death, it doesn't liberate. It has become a demographic disaster in the USA and elsewhere. How can people be anti-war and pro-abortion? Why let a wave of emotion caused by a hard case to open the gates to mass abortion, as the roe v. wade case did in USA in 1973? The woman in that tragic case has since come out to campaign against abortion.

by Emma Mon Apr 30, 2007 23:32

I hope the rally goes ahead whatever the court's decision. Its time we stopped letting our politicians off the hook on this issue.