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Dublin - Event Notice Thursday January 01 1970 Close The Rogue Agency! dublin |
gender and sexuality |
event notice
 Thursday July 19, 2007 18:04 by pat c - Choice Ireland choiceireland at gmail dot com
 Following the successful pickets on Thursday 8 March, Saturday 24 March and Saturday 21 April at the rogue crisis pregnancy agency, an action will be held on Saturday 18 August at 12 noon. The rogue agency is at 50 Upper Dorset Street. The Agency, called "Women's Resource Agency" and also using the name "British Alternatives Pregnancy Services" is Advertised as a pregnancy counselling agency, it subjects women in crisis pregnancies to psychological manipulation, misleading and deliberately lying about pregnancy and abortion services to prevent women from travelling for abortion services. The lies they tell clients are designed to force women to feel guilt and shame for even considering abortion as an option.  We are currently not accepting any more comments on this article. printable version
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Comments (68 of 68)
Jump To Comment: 68 67 66 65 64 63 62 61 60 59 58 57 56 55 54 53 52 51 50 49 48 47 46 45 44 43 42 41 40 39 38 37 36 35 34 33 32 31 30 29 28 27 26 25 24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1There are really only two options here:
1) "Leon/Plato/Shalom/Aristotle" are all the same person posting under different names, perhaps from different computers
2) They are all members of YD who have been briefed to abuse this thread with the same dishonest trolling.
So far you've been presented with a detailed, blow by blow account of everything that is said to women by this clinic, with links to medical information showing why the claims it makes are conscious lies, and with a link to a Newstalk documentary where the chief cllr in the clinic can be heard saying the things detailed above. Not surprisingly, there's been no attempt to answer this detailed indictment - just constant attempts to change the subject by a variety of sock puppets. Their only line seems to be this - unless you're willing to spend a small fortune on legal fees bringing a case against this clinic, you can't say anything about it. How utterly pathetic.
Funny how all the sock puppets pretending to be "neutral observers" keep shrieking that protests outside the clinic are "not the way to go" - the dedication they've shown in attacking Choice Ireland merely suggests that it is the right way to go, that it has them rattled, and they desperately want to stop it any way they can. Hopefully this will encourage CI to redouble their efforts.
You are just repeating the same YD lies.
As you know this "clinic" is not subject to legislation. Therefore an injunction cannot be sought.
With that list of inaccurate information it should be possible to get an injunction to stop this clinic from operating.
A right to choose group could probably act as a notice party in the matter.
Picketing/Activism is just self indulgence.
"Counselors are accredited by whom?"
No one.
"Are licensed by whom?"
No one.
"Receive their training from whom?"
They dont require any training. Anyone can call themselves a counseller.
"All of which comes under the remit of the medical council."
You are either ignorant or a liar. The MC do not regulate counsellers.
"Any medical advice can only be given by a licensed practitioner. That is the Law."
But they are counselling. As you well know.
"Deary me. Seriously Miss Gale If anyone from that clinic is reading this thread they would have absolutely nothing to fear from you."
As I say you are either ignorant or a liar.
""Nope. A member of Choice Ireland went to the "clinic". The lies that were told to her are documented at the link at the top of this thread."
I recall some years ago an anti-abortion activist came up with the same stuff to discredit a clinic with a clear pro-abortion ethos. If this stuff was regurgitated here Dorothy, you would rightly dismiss it as biased."
Well what evidence do you have that your "clinic" did not give out false information? Do you have any empirical or even second-hand evidence?
The "clinic" itself has not denied that it gives out the crazy info and it only puts up its sign when theres a demo outside of it.
“No point in asking the same questions twicw. You will only get one answer”
Ah more allegations of sockpuppetry.
The site administrator knows that is not the case
"Saving woman from abortion, profiteers, cancer and suicide"
That sign is only put up when there is a picket on the "clinic". I pass the "clinic" every day and that sign is not up.”
Are you for real? You are accussing this clinic of behaving like the Child Catcher out of Chitty Chitty bang bang.
Ludicrous
“If you want empirical evidence go there now and have a look at it.”
I will, camera in hand.
""Nope. A member of Choice Ireland went to the "clinic". The lies that were told to her are documented at the link at the top of this thread."
I recall some years ago an anti-abortion activist came up with the same stuff to discredit a clinic with a clear pro-abortion ethos. If this stuff was regurgitated here Dorothy, you would rightly dismiss it as biased.
Counselors are accredited by whom?
Are licensed by whom?
Receive their training from whom?
All of which comes under the remit of the medical council.
Any medical advice can only be given by a licensed practitioner. That is the Law.
Deary me. Seriously Miss Gale If anyone from that clinic is reading this thread they would have absolutely nothing to fear from you.
No point in asking the same questions twicw. You will only get one answer.
""Saving woman from abortion, profiteers, cancer and suicide"
That sign is only put up when there is a picket on the "clinic". I pass the "clinic" every day and that sign is not up.
If you want empirical evidence go there now and have a look at it.
""Nope. A member of Choice Ireland went to the "clinic". The lies that were told to her are documented at the link at the top of this thread."
That is hearsay and would not stand up in any court, as well you now. "
Yes it would. The person who visited the "clinic would be prepared to testify. Thats direct evidence.
"An interesting analogy between journalism and direct experience as a point of reference but that’s for another day and irrelevant from a legal standpoint, as well you know."
But its not irrelevant from a logical viewpoint. This is not a court of law. You either only believe in those events you empirically experience or you accept "secondhand" accounts also. Which is it with you?
""Nope. At present the law does not cover cases like this as you well know. Thats why Choice Ireland are lobbying to get legislation introduced."
Not true. It is illegal to give out false medical information."
Only if you are a medical professional or are purporting to give medical adviice. This "clinic" says it counsels.
" There are number of bodies including the medical council that can be approached if it is warranted."
Do you know anything? The Medical Council only has authority over doctors.
"It is exactly because these channels are not being pursued that I find this whole protest dubious and extremely amateurish."
You are being ameteurish. You dont know what you are talking about.
"Choice Ireland are correctly lobbying to have abortion legislation introduced which will decriminalise it. "
Correct.
"This is the area it should emphasis in the battle for hearts and minds in any referendum. "
Dont worry we do. The campaign against the "clinic" is just one of our projects.
"Not scaremongering that marginalizes pro-choice as a lunatic fringe."
The lunatic fringe are your friends in the "clinic". No scaremongering on our part, just telling the truth about the "clinic". Dont worry about us isolating ourselfs!
Dorothy Gale are you serious? You are claiming that people could endanger the lives of pregnant women
"Because its not illegal at present for a "clinic" to pretend to be non-directional when its the opposite"
This is fanciful nonsense. No state would allow such activity to go on
And then this,
"Women arrive at the "clinic" thinking they will be counselled on all of the optoions. Instead they are shown slasher style horror videos purporting to represent abortion. They are also bombarded with lies about the after effects of abortion."
Are they tied down while this stuff is being force fed to them? Do you people actually read what you write?
""they endanger the life of the woman or girl through guided directional counselling"
And the authorities stand idly by?"
Yes. Because its not illegal at present for a "clinic" to pretend to be non-directional when its the opposite.
" "they specialise on preying on intensely vulnerable women."
How do they do this? Do they scour the streets stopping women who look pregnant and assess their state of mind?"
No. Women arrive at the "clinic" thinking they will be counselled on all of the optoions. Instead they are shown slasher style horror videos purporting to represent abortion. They are also bombarded with lies about the after effects of abortion.
"Nope. A member of Choice Ireland went to the "clinic". The lies that were told to her are documented at the link at the top of this thread."
That is hearsay and would not stand up in any court, as well you now.
An interesting analogy between journalism and direct experience as a point of reference but that’s for another day and irrelevant from a legal standpoint, as well you know.
"Nope. At present the law does not cover cases like this as you well know. Thats why Choice Ireland are lobbying to get legislation introduced."
Not true. It is illegal to give out false medical information. There are number of bodies including the medical council that can be approached if it is warranted. It is exactly because these channels are not being pursued that I find this whole protest dubious and extremely amateurish.
Choice Ireland are correctly lobbying to have abortion legislation introduced which will decriminalise it.
This is the area it should emphasis in the battle for hearts and minds in any referendum. Not scaremongering that marginalizes pro-choice as a lunatic fringe.
"they endanger the life of the woman or girl through guided directional counselling"
And the authorities stand idly by?
" they specialise on preying on intensely vulnerable women."
How do they do this? Do they scour the streets stopping women who look pregnant and assess their state of mind?
This stuff is dizzying.
"I don’t know what this clinic says and neither do you. You have never availed of its services and your evidence is hearsay and unsubstantiated"
Nope. A member of Choice Ireland went to the "clinic". The lies that were told to her are documented at the link at the top of this thread.
Do you only believe things that you directly experience yourself? Do you doubt every "secondhand" story? Do you refuse to believe anything you read in the papers because you were not there to experience the events?
Bishop Berkley would have been proud of you.
" A complaint made to the Gardai that this clinic is breaking the law is enough to instigate an investigation and if the allegations are true the State will prosecute. You will not be parted with a single precious cent."
Nope. At present the law does not cover cases like this as you well know. Thats why Choice Ireland are lobbying to get legislation introduced.
"The need for regulation of rogue agencies is bloody obvious"
There is legistation on the statute books that cover the dissemination of false medical information.
There is legislation that prevents anyone from prohibiting Abortion information.
There is legislation that covers Medical Practitioners conduct and holds them to account accordingly.
Do some research before you wade into a debate ranting hysterically.
If this clinic breaks any of the above it is liable to prosecution. State your case or retract your accusations.
The need for regulation of rogue agencies is bloody obvious. they falsely advertise their
services, they endanger the life of the woman or girl through guided directional counselling
they have counsellors who are not professionally registered, they specialise on preying on
intensely vulnerable women.
This is passionate defence of freedom of speech- you passionately defend the right
of agents unknown to give false and damaging information based on their predijuicial
view of women. You defend the right of YD to hang grotesque images of aborted
foetuses in the faces of young children?
you defend the right to free speech but you will not allow the young woman who
responds to you her freedom of opinion and expression.
That is passionate defence of a one sided and aggressive argument and you are
obviously bored.
This is becoming really tiresome, but at least those who are reading can judge for themselves what exactly lies behind the call to picket this clinic. Intolerence and people being accussed and found guilty of criminal acts with the flimsiest of evidence and heresay
This post by Socrates is a disgrace and is indeed scary if it is representative of those that intend to picket the clinic.
"So yet again Plato, you have declined the opportunity to refute the very detailed account that has been provided of the lies and false information provided by the clinic"
You know well that no such evidence has been produced. Is it your idea of justice that people should be convicted on the basis of what somebody else claims they have done/said?
"Of course you are a troll - you keep changing your name and changing your arguments, moving the goalposts hither and thither in a desperate bid to distract attention from the substantial issue"
The editors know that I have not posted under any other name here, yet in keeping with your laissez-faire approach to things I am to be dismissed because I am guilty of something because it is your opinion that I am guilty. Isn't that what is at the core of this discussion? People being condemned because what they say is, in the opinion of someone else, considered to be untrue.
The rest is the usual mix of "shout'em down, name calling and the claim that "Commie had the patience to give a very detailed, blow by blow account of the lies being told by the clinic." He/she did no such thing. Read again what was posted. The reason that those who posted here want to picket this clinic is because they disagree with the view on abortion that the clinic espouses. This picket is in fact nothing less than bullying and I refuse to believe that those who are motivated to help vulnerable people would engage in this activity.
And for the record, your odd accusation that I belong to YD is another fabrication. I belong to no such organisation. I responded to this post because I felt that agressive action is being taken against this clinic because people disagree with what they are saying. I passionately believe in freedom of speech and will defend anyone's right to it whether I agree with what they are saying or not. If your intentions are noble you should have no difficulty doing the same.
The arguments are the same, the style is the same - you're the same person. Yet again, you refuse to address the detailed account of the lies put about by this clinic - you don't say "the clinic doesn't say that" because you know well that it does, you don't say "the clinic says that and it's true" because you know that would be a lie. Thrashing around desperately in the hope that somebody will be taken in by your trolling, you may well be the biggest charlatan who's ever posted on Indymedia. What a complete and utter shambles.
Your latest trick is to demand that I personally take a court case against this clinic - unless I'm willing to spend a small fortune on legal fees, and until the legal process makes its slow way to a conclusion, I can't say anything. Nice try to censor me, but it won't work. I'd rather refer you to this link to the Newstalk documentary that I've referred to several times - anyone can listen in and hear the chief cllr say all the things that Commie lists off.
http://choiceireland.blogspot.com/2007/03/newstalk-docu....html
The agency responded to this documentary by changing their name and painting over their sign. A sure sign of how confident they are in the info they provide and how happy they are to have light shone on their activities.
You’re going off the deep end my dear boy and are really beginning to froth at the mouth.
You’re not doing yourself any favours throwing around accusations of sock puppetry and trolling. You just look hysterical and unable to engage a debate if you bawl and scream at everyone and claim they are trolls and have dishonourable intentions.
What was it you called it? Projection?
Now. All commie did was a post a list of accusations. Anyone can do that, especially when they come without links which can substantiate that evidence. It is a common practice in online debate and separates the genuine protagonists from the shrill harpings of conspiracy theorists.
Where are the links?
The only links Commie provided where to online abortion information that is available to everyone. There is nothing on the clinics website that refutes the information Commie provided through his links or have you even bothered to look?
Furthermore, as has been stated, it is illegal to peddle false information as medical advice. There a several acts that cover such a transgression and a conviction under any or all would be more than sufficient to close this clinic.
Yet oddly enough, you choose to ignore this option and instead resort to protest and juvenile name-calling. A course of action with little or no chance of closing the clinic, despite what you may think.
I have told you how to proceed along a course that will guarantee the clinics closure if your assertions are correct, yet you dismiss it off hand and resort to name calling.
Pathetic behaviour and not the behaviour of a genuine activist.
Why do you refuse to take the clinic to court?
So yet again Plato, you have declined the opportunity to refute the very detailed account that has been provided of the lies and false information provided by the clinic. Of course you are a troll - you keep changing your name and changing your arguments, moving the goalposts hither and thither in a desperate bid to distract attention from the substantial issue. You are a shameless liar, just as much as the people running the clinic, and your tiresome raving is a classic example of trolling a thread in the hope of confusing people who don't have the patience to disentangle your lies. Fortunately, Commie had the patience to give a very detailed, blow by blow account of the lies being told by the clinic. After demanding repeatedly that the lies be specified, you then ran away - you have since been trying to change the subject because you know very well you can't refute anything that has been said. What a pathetic, decrepit, embarassing display - if this is the best YD can provide, we might get a fair abortion law in this country sooner than any of us think.
Socrates wrote
"These liars (Plato/aristotle/kar-elwhatever - probably all the same person, definitely all the same agenda)"
You made the allsions to sock puppetry yet I am the one projecting? Classic sign of someone who is so wrapped up in their own arguement they cant even see their own hypocracy.
Calling people Trolls because they disagree with you is a poor substitute for arguement. I'm sure its the best you can do and is a measure of the type of reactionary you are.
"Honestly, who the hell do you think you're fooling with this bullshit?"
What is this? Pathetic.
If this clinic is spinning lies and you have proof other than the postings here, bring the clinic to court.
This is the real crux of the arguement and one you fail to engage because you can't.
"Your arguments have been destroyed already"
Whose arguments? The only place you have destroyed my arguement is in your head. In fact you haven't even addressed my arguement which is to take the clinic to court. Take it out into the open. Expose it to all and highlight it? What are you afraid of? According to you the clinic hasn't a leg to stand on. So close it, legally. Or are the courts your enemy too?
"no need to engage with your dishonest trolling"
More lame, pathetic and limp wristed rubbish.
Seriously if you forward yourself as the voice of pro-choice and this the best you can do then Abortion will remain illegal in Ireland for a very very long time.
Is that a new pseudonym, "Plato/aristotle/all the family"? I knew your innocent "they shouldn't stage street protests" line was far from credible. Honestly, who the hell do you think you're fooling with this bullshit? Your allusion to "sock puppetry" is surely a classic instance of projection. You obviously have nothing worthwhile to say, so bye bye! Your arguments have been destroyed already, no need to engage with your dishonest trolling
Is that a new pseudonym, "Plato/aristotle/all the family"? I knew your innocent "they shouldn't stage street protests" line was far from credible. Honestly, who the hell do you think you're fooling with this bullshit? Your allusion to "sock puppetry" is surely a classic instance of projection. You obviously have nothing worthwhile to say, so bye bye! Your arguments have been destroyed already, no need to engage with your dishonest trolling
You are talking nonsense and trying to be contrite about a complex issue. You attack those who contradict you yet fail to utilise the legal tools available to you to pursue this through the courts.
If the proof you say exists is of substance then it will hold up in a court of law and the clinic with be reprimanded under the relevant legislation and most likely forced to close and/or prohibited from peddling the alleged 'lies'.
If you have the proof, use it.
You have proven nothing to me, nor has commie nor anyone else on this thread in the 'for' or 'against' camp.
Its all posturing and guff and without credence and your accusations of sock puppetry can be thrown right back at you.
By all means have your protest but do not EVER attempt to shut those up who disagree with you.
Your muddying of the waters is contemptable and exposes your intolerance of opposite points of view.
These liars (Plato/aristotle/kar-elwhatever - probably all the same person, definitely all the same agenda) have been comprehensively exposed. They really expect people not to notice when they keep moving the goalposts - first commie provided a link to an article detailing the lies told by this clinic, then commie wrote out a detailed list of those lies, then commie provided links to medical information showing why the lies told by the clinic were lies. Plato et al had a very simple task - they could say "these claims are not made by the clinic at all", or say "they do make these claims, and with good reason".
But you'll search in vain in any of their posts for any attempt to do either of these things. Because they know there's no point - if they say "the clinic doesn't say that", the reply will come "oh yes it does, Choice Ireland has the sheets of 'information' that were given to its members in the clinic, Newstalk produced a documentary that anyone can find on the Internet where the chief cllr in the clinic can be heard saying all these things". And they know there's no point saying "the clinic does say that, and it"s true", because they can be simply referred to the overwhelming medical evidence to disprove that claim (as commie did).
That's why it's essential for Plato and co to avoid engaging with the concrete issues at all costs - they keep the whole debate as an abstract discussion about "free speech" when it has been made abundantly clear why "free speech" does not include the right of people claiming to provide medical information to tell conscious lies, they keep repeating the mantra "that's their opinion, you have yours" when they know very well that the issue is one of fact, not opinion.
These charlatans have been completely exposed - they are determined to protect the "right" of this clinic to bully and mislead vulnerable women. All the rest is hypocritical guff. Their co-thinkers in the US go around bombing abortion clinics and murdering doctors - that's how much they value freedom
If this clinic is telling lies then get the authorities involved.
That is a far more effective form of protest than resorting to street demonstration which will alienate support and has the distinct possibility of confrontation with a counter demonstration from YD.
Legislation under the Freedom of Information Act makes it an offence to deny access to or give false information in relation to abortion.
If this clinic is guilty of such offences it will be heavily fined and will be forced to close.
That is the route those who oppose this clinic should take.
Commie's final shots,
"There is no point in this "discussion".
Oh yes there is. If you are engaged in a campaign to stop fellow citizens from expressing what they believe to be the truth, that is a very serious matter and demands a clear and concise explanation from you. You cannot gag people because you disagree with their opinion. Dangerous-and posters here are expected to see such dangers a mile off.
"Truth and lies are just "different opinions" to you."
What lies have been stated, no heresay or porkies.
"It will be clear to all decent people interested in defending human rights what is at stake here and I hope to see as many of them as possible at the protest on 18 August."
Once again the typical retreat into name calling. So in order to understand what you are saying the listener has to be "decent" All is now clear. Check the history of human behaviour and prior to any gross injustice being perpetrated on any group, you will see a campaign to pigeonhole, emphasis difference and dehumanise and demonise. In this tread we have seen people called , "liers" , "Ilk", "indecent" etc etc. ( Incitement to hatred?)
You have failed to persuade with words that what you say is gospel, so now you resort to physical confrontation. A slippery slope. Be careful out there. Not only have you clearly lost this discussion, but you are about to compound that failure by reaching for the sword.
There is no point in this "discussion".
Truth and lies are just "different opinions" to you.
It will be clear to all decent people interested in defending human rights what is at stake here and I hope to see as many of them as possible at the protest on 18 August.
As I thouht.
Unsubstantiated and predictable allegations.
No doubt the people behind this anti-abortion agency would make unsubstantiated counter-allegations about women being railroaded into having abortions.
Now, what opinions would you ban and what opinions would you allow?
Cut the crap and evasions and give us a straight answer.
Not one of those links demonstrates that this clinic tells lies.
The links you provide give information on abortion, that is all.
Nothing you have provided exposes the information this clinic gives as lies. Again you are spouting libelous anecdotal hearsay.
Your also expecting people to believe that woman are so devoid of their faculties that they cannot decide for themselves whether this clinic fulfills their needs in a crisis pregnancy or not.
The list of 'lies' you provided above is testimony to how gullible you presume woman to be.
Information on Abortion is not solely the property of Pro-choice or pro-life extremists. There is a wealth of information at any womans fingertips if they so wish to find it. This clinic nor any other cannot prevent a woman from having an abortion if she so wishes to or deems it the best course of action for her to take. This clinic cannot prevent a woman from leaving and seeking alternative advice. It has no legislative powers or powers of arrest. It may have a pro-life bias but that is far removed from lies and disinformation. If it chooses to highlight the possible repercussions of abortion to woman that is its prerogative.
It cannot tell lies otherwise it would be open to prosecution under various legislative instruments and action would have been taken. This is not 1930's Ireland. Gross violations of the magnitude you claim would be actionable and would be acted upon.
To suggest that this clinic acts the way you suggest it does shows you consider woman to be gullible goons who will swallow everything. That is rubbish and indicative of a misogynist mentality where woman cannot be told all sides of the story insofar as to protect them from themselves.
You intend to introduce censorship because this clinic differs in its approach to abortion than yours. That is your agenda.
You want "proof" that it is a lie to say that it is impossible to have an abortion before eight weeks?
http://www.fwhc.org/abortion/medical-ab.htm
http://www.brook.org.uk/content/M2_5_abortion.asp
http://www.unm.edu/~shc1/abortion.html
I could go on and do this for each of the examples of the lies they tell at this clinic but it is not really what this is about. You aren't interested in what is true or false - you are just interested in denying women the right to make informed choices about abortion.
They are not lies until you conclusively prove they are. You are the one making the accusations, the burden of proof lies with you.
Where is your proof?
You can keep on saying they are opinions all you like but these are still lies.
Go forth and tell all that this clinic tells lies. Only provide some concrete evidence. Not hearsay and certainly not your own personal take on the situation. And do not just repost all the examples you have given. Without a link to a reputable source it is meaningless and nothing more that a manufactured list prepared and assembled on second hand and therefore inadmissible testimony. That is libelous.
Woman have the choice to go to this clinic or not. So far all you have done is list accusation. You have not proved beyond reasonable doubt that this clinic in fact lies to anyone who walks through its doors. So far all that has been stated is that its opinions and the advice it gives differ from your opinions.
Nothing wrong with that
This is not some abstract discussion about free speech.
This is a very concrete situation of people telling lies to women coming to them looking for honest impartial advice about what to do at a time of crisis in their life. It is about a denial of the basic human right for a woman to make an informed choice about what to do when she is pregnant.
This is not a question of a difference of opinion no matter how many times plato says it - these are lies that the people telling them must know are lies as the scientific evidence about them is completely clear.
I will do all that I can to let as many people as possible know thes are lies so that the influence of these liars is undermined and hopefully they are forced to stop telling their lies and close down the clinic. I encourage everyone who cares about human rights to come to the protest on 18 August.
"All of the above is based on the experience of women who have gone to this clinic - this is the truth of the lies they tell and why I will be protesting outside the clinic.
You can try all you like to defend this wretched behaviour but all decent people will see through you and your pathetic defence of these lies"
This is the usual destination of this discussion. Opinions become irrefutable facts and accusations become material evidence. The tactic of labelling what people you disagree with say as "lies" is the well used one of dictators and worse. We must defend the right of everyone to say and think what they like. If we believe that they are wrong or mistaken, we should point that out. But we must never do anything that would have the effect of gagging them. Dangerous territory and I for one am greatly concerned by postings here that have demonstarted little respect for freedom of thought/speech and has shown an alarming degree of intolerance to those that they disagree with.
All of the above is based on the experience of women who have gone to this clinic - this is the truth of the lies they tell and why I will be protesting outside the clinic.
You can try all you like to defend this wretched behaviour but all decent people will see through you and your pathetic defence of these lies.
Commie, all these accusations are just that, accusations. By the way, they are not contained in the link that you refered to earlier. That is mainly about an adopted child, unhygenic conditions and the use of images to "pressurise" women intent on having an abortion to change their minds.
The position remains the same, whether you or I agree or disagree with what these people are telling women who come to their clinic, they have a right to say it.
This rogue agency misinforms women that it is impossible to have an abortion before eight weeks, even though an abortion during this period is cheaper and safer.
They also falsely claim that there is no such thing as a medical abortion and that all abortions are therefore surgical, even though a medical abortion is when a drug is administered to end pregnancy. In England medical abortions are performed up until 9 weeks.
Having falsely asserted that all abortions are surgical abortions they then claim that this surgery puts the woman’s life at risk. This is a gross overstatement of the small risk of complications associated with any surgical procedure. There are similar risks of complications with carry a pregnancy to full term.
The agency demands that a woman seeks an unnecessary ultrasound at a private hospital before information about abortion services will be disclosed. The agency has no intention of providing such information, it simply seeks to delay the woman’s plans by weeks and cause additional expense to be incurred. Three weeks later the agency will try to use the ultrasound image in a further attempt to try to get the woman to reconsider her course of action.
They misinform pregnant women that this is their only opportunity to have a child because abortion causes sterility. Abortion terminates a pregnancy not fertility!
They falsely claim that abortion causes depression, even though abortion can be an empowering choice that improves self-esteem for women faced with the truly depressing prospect of living with an unwanted pregnancy and unwanted children. If this agency really cared about women’s mental health then they’d probably offer support instead of manipulating them through lies into fear and guilt.
They misinform that abortion puts the woman’s life at risk because it causes a 90% increase to the risk of breast cancer, yet no major cancer organisation in the world believes that there is a link between abortion and breast cancer. If a woman won’t describe abortion as “killing my own baby” then they are pronounced “psychologically unfit” to have an abortion because you are supposedly in denial if you describe abortion in any other [ie. less pro-life] way.
They confuse abortion with rape by describing abortion as a ‘hostile penetration’, manipulating the real recent trauma of rape victims seeking an abortion. They have even insisted that rape cannot cause pregnancy, saying, it must be your boyfriend's child!
They also have claimed that abortion leads to both ‘promiscuity’ and ‘frigidity’!
I'm afraid the squirling is entirely on your part, plato/aristotle/whoever. I have repeatedly referred you to an article which summarises the evidence that this clinic tells lies, it outlines what those lies are and why they are lies. I don't need to repeat what has already been well said. You repeatedly try to change the subject and ignore the only critical point. Your repeated refusal to deal with any of the arguments made by CI in the article linked to above can only be taken as a full, frank, confession that you are totally inable to do so. You know that CI are telling the truth so you ignore them and try to change the subject. You are a dishonest troll trying to throw sand in people's eyes. The only relevant issue is this - this clinic knowingly provides false information to women. It does not express its opinion, it purports to offer factual information which it knows to be false.
Your response will doubtless ignore this key point once again - so I won't bother engaging with you anymore. I'm satisfied that your dishonesty and refusal to engage with the relevant issue has been exposed - anyone with sense can cut through your waffle and see what you are up to.
Yeah Commie, indulge me.
Please list the "lies" (as distinct from the differences of opinion which manifestly exist between the people who are behind this clinic and people like you who don't like their opinions)
I'm (still) waiting.
BTW 1. referring me to some article posted on Indymedia by your pals or yourself is not evidence of anything.
2. Please tell us what opinions and facts you would suppress and what opinions and facts you would allow.
It is becoming more and more obvious that those who support freedom of expression are open and forthright in their interest while you and your various aliases are full of bluster, bluff and evasion.
Straight answer please. No more wriggling (Or should I say, squirming?)
Plato and Aristotle continually avoid the evidence of the clinic's lies - why is that?
Read this - http://www.indymedia.ie/article/81414
I could I suppose spam this thread with all the examples of the lies of this clinic if that is what they really want - but it won't make any difference will it because they aren't interested in the truth. Socrates has hypothisised that they are YD supporters and opponents of women's rights - this would seem to fit with the evidence of their continual refusal to deal with the proof of the clinic's lies.
Dear dear me!
Socrates seems to believe that by constantly repeating the mantra "this clinic tells lies" he/she is making some sort of argument.
Presumably (One is never sure what this person is trying to argue) the "lies" he/she is referring to are 1. Abortion is morally wrong,
2. Abortion harms women. 3. Alternatives are available and should be considered.
The first two are merely opinions. The third is a mixture of fact and opinion.
It might be noticed that neither the Well Woman people nor this clinic are in a position to force their opinions on anyone under the existing legal and Constitutional dispensation. That is because people in Ireland are free to express their opinions because people like him/her are kept well away from political power by the electorate.
So, what facts and opinions would Socrates allow, and what facts and opinions would he/she ban?
We are entitled to a straight answer.
A lot of words Plato, to distract attention from your refusal to address the relevant issue. The issue is this - this clinic tells lies. Somebody posted a link to an article by a Choice Ireland member, giving chapter and verse about this, explaining in detail what the lies are. It is not a matter of "expressing an opinion". This clinic does not sit women down and say "we think abortion is wrong because we believe an unborn foetus is a human being". They tell them lies about the effect of having an abortion.
When you were invited to refute the claims made by Choice Ireland, you said you had "no interest in engaging with them" - obviously because you are incapable of engaging them. Now you are trying to change the subject and are willing to say anything to distract from the central issue - this clinic knowingly tells lies to vulnerable women to pressurise them into not having abortions. It does not express an opinion, it claims to provide "facts" which are anything but factual. When you set yourself up to provide medical information, you are not expressing an opinion, you are claiming to provide facts. If a GP told one of his patients he could cure cancer by using leeches, it would not be excused as an exercise of his freedom of speech.
This is the central issue, indeed the only issue. You have repeatedly declined the invitation to refute the claims made by CI. They have made it easy for you - in the article linked to, they say "the clinic says x / x is false because..." You can refute this in two ways - by saying "the clinic does not say x" or by saying "x is in fact true, not false". Despite writing long, rambling posts that obviously took up a lot of time, you have not done this, in the smallest way. Because you can't. You try to change the subject by bleating 'that's your opinion, they have their opinion, they have a right to express it". We are not talking about opinion - we are talking about facts. All the shrieking about "Stalinism" you can muster won't change that.
Tellingly, your side-kick "Aristotle" repeats exactly the same line as you. Although he/she pretends to be a moderate who dislikes "extremists on both sides", they use exactly the same tactic of ignoring the fact that the clinic is telling lies and doing whatever they can to distract from this. I have to say Aristotle - who the hell do you think you're kidding? You're obviously an anti-abortion troll who is trying to smear the pro-choice activists for highlighting the abuses of this clinic. Your impostures won't fool anyone with their eyes open.
Commie say,
"I can't speak for Choice Ireland but I think that this therefore means we can't rely on parliamentary means and that the way to stop this clinic from spreading its lies would be to have more or less continual/regular protests with leaflets countering the lies."
What are the "lies" that are being told? Do you know? If ,as I suspect ,what they are telling people who come to them is that in their view abortion is wrong or has risks attached, these are not lies. Professionals in the Health Services hold these views which they have reached through scientific research. That is not to say that they are gospel. Nonetheless, to hold these views and to express them to others is legitmate. By all means seek to counter these views with your own. But this must not include crude attempts to deny freedom of speech. Why not open a clinic next door?
Well I would have thought that there are existing laws against the type of lies this clinic tells. The problem is that the Irish government aren't interested in women's rights and are quite happy to let these lies be told.
I can't speak for Choice Ireland but I think that this therefore means we can't rely on parliamentary means and that the way to stop this clinic from spreading its lies would be to have more or less continual/regular protests with leaflets countering the lies.
Sorry I was away, duty called.
"You've really let the cat out the bag now Plato. After repeatedly demanding evidence that the clinic tells lies to vulnerable women, you were given evidence. It now fell to you to challenge the claims being made about the clinic, to show that Choice Ireland are wrong to say that it provides false medical information."
This is crazy stuff. If this clinic is giving "false medical information" the Garda need to be involved
"A real change of tune eh? You have "no interest in engaging" with Choice Ireland, simply because you have no capacity to engage them."
Read the posts here so far and indicate which one constitutes an effort to debate the issue. And the issue is not whether I or you are pro or anti-abortion, it is about the right of individuals to state their view up to and including attempting to change the view or actions of another. It's called freedom of speech.
"You know that what they are saying is true - otherwise you would at least try to refute it. You can't refute it, because it is factual. As you said yourself, facts are facts."
You keep repeating this stuff abourt truth. You don't have a monopoly on truth. Although it is not the core issue here, an anti-abotion view is every bit as legitimate as a pro-abortion one, or even a "right to choose" one. Gagging people won't change that.
"This clinic tells conscious, deliberate lies to women in a very vulnerable position, it provides them with bogus information in a bid to terrorise them into not having abortions. That is its sole raison d'etre, and you are trying to protect it by telling lies yourself and shrieking about "free speech" - the only "freedom" you are defending is the freedom to provide false medical information."
Once again and for the umpteen time, this is your opinion to which you are entitled to hold and express.
"The rest of your post is the usual nonsense - like all fanatics of your ilk, you are incapable of understanding that pro-choice activists don't want to pressurise anyone into having an abortion."
No, but you want to stop people who believe that abortion is wrong and harmful from attempting to convey that view to a woman who may or may not be contemplating abortion. You seem to be suggesting that people with an anti-abortion view are "fanafics" And you accuse me of wanting to evade debate! Name calling is bullying-full stop.
"Any time a woman decides to keep her baby, that's great, and we want to see Irish society provide the means for women to raise children properly (high quality childcare etc.)"
Good. Now here we have an objective that is worthy of your time and energy. Instead of standing around outside this clinic annoying the ass of everyone, why not picket your local TD seeking proper child care, proper pre-schooling etc etc. I might even join you.
"No clinic that provides information about abortion would dream of applying the same tactics as the Dorset St clinic in reverse, trying to frighten women into having abortions. It's only your friends who are willing to stoop so low."
As has been stated before, abortion is now practically an industry. There are clinics that do nothing else. I find it very hard to believe that, as with all businesses, money is not set aside to grow it. But that's another issue.
Bringing in legislation to regulate pregnancy-counselling per se would not have any different effect on counsellers advocating abortion or advocating alternatives to abortion, unless it specifically and expressly confined itself to prohibiting counsellers from counselling against abortion. If it contained such an exclusive prohibition it would of course be both discriminatory and contrary to the constitutional provision protecting freedom of expression.
A so-called "anti-bullying" law would also be a licence for the nutters at both dizzy extremes of this debate to 'set-up' the clinics and personnel of the other 'side' by pretending to seek pregnancy councelling and then claim they were 'bullied' into seeking abortion/alternatives to abortion.
Incidentally, both tiny groups of extremists in this debate use euphemisms to sugar the perception of their agendas. Those who label themselves "right to choose" are uniformly pro-abortion activists. Those who label themselves "right to life" are uniformly anti-abortion activists.
The interesting thing about this discussion is that the people who would outlaw this clinic are the very same people who argue ad-nauseum that criminalizing abortion merely drives it underground! Presumably, if they are logical and consistent, they would also agree that criminalizing this clinic would merely drive it underground?
Now guys! cut the bluster and bulls**t and answer the question: What measures would you employ to force this anti-abortion clinic to close?
(This is a thoeretical question only because thankfully the Irish electorate have proved themselves far too nuanced to be taken in by the the propaganda of both sets of extremist absolutists in this debate)
The last comment came from "socrates" not "plato" of course, as anyone reading it can guess - getting confused myself with all the pseudnyms this guy/gal is using
"BTW, I'm not Socrates and don't agree with the views of the so-called "right to lifers" - However, I do believe in their right (and the right of the pro-abortion agencies) to express their views and counsel citizens accordingly."
BTW, this is a dead give-away of your barely-concealed agenda - you know well there is no such thing as a "pro-abortion" clinic - there is no clinic that will pressurise women who want to continue their pregnancies to full term into having an abortion. No clinic that provides women with information about abortion has ever been accused of telling lies in order to pressurise women into ending their pregnancies. Therefore the question doesn't arise, and your attempt to bracket "pro-abortion" clinics with the likes of the Dorset st one is consciously dishonest. If there really was a clinic that, for whatever reason, told women lies about the dangers of continuing your pregnancy so that they would get an abortion, I would condemn that and call for action to be taken against it. There are no such clinics, so the question is irrelevant
Nice attempt to change the subject once "Plato" ran out of words of wisdom. I don't accept for a moment that we have to change the constitution to stop people from providing knowingly false medical information. A bill to regulate counselling services, with cllrs obliged to register themselves and sign up to an ethical code that would certainly prohibit the sort of dishonest bullying tactics used by the Dorset St clinic, should do the job nicely.
Ok Soctates.
If the electorate were stupid enough to put you nto power how would you go about closing this clinic? (as you openly advocate, and which wold presumably be your number one election promise))
Would you introduce the necesary legislation to amend the Constitution? (Closing this clinic - or the abortion-referral clinics - is presently unconstitutional because of the provisions protecting fredom of expression and the right to travel to procure an abortion)
Or wold you just send in the Gardai (or private goons) to beat the clinic personel up, thrash the building, and board it up?
We deserve a straight answer.
BTW, I'm not Socrates and don't agree with the views of the so-called "right to lifers" - However, I do believe in their right (and the right of the pro-abortion agencies) to express their views and counsel citizens accordingly.
You've really let the cat out the bag now Plato. After repeatedly demanding evidence that the clinic tells lies to vulnerable women, you were given evidence. It now fell to you to challenge the claims being made about the clinic, to show that Choice Ireland are wrong to say that it provides false medical information.
Instead, we have this:
"I have no interest in engaging with Choice Ireland on this issue. Neither have I any interest in trying to stop them saying what they are saying."
A real change of tune eh? You have "no interest in engaging" with Choice Ireland, simply because you have no capacity to engage them. You know that what they are saying is true - otherwise you would at least try to refute it. You can't refute it, because it is factual. As you said yourself, facts are facts. This clinic tells conscious, deliberate lies to women in a very vulnerable position, it provides them with bogus information in a bid to terrorise them into not having abortions. That is its sole raison d'etre, and you are trying to protect it by telling lies yourself and shrieking about "free speech" - the only "freedom" you are defending is the freedom to provide false medical information.
The rest of your post is the usual nonsense - like all fanatics of your ilk, you are incapable of understanding that pro-choice activists don't want to pressurise anyone into having an abortion. Any time a woman decides to keep her baby, that's great, and we want to see Irish society provide the means for women to raise children properly (high quality childcare etc.). No clinic that provides information about abortion would dream of applying the same tactics as the Dorset St clinic in reverse, trying to frighten women into having abortions. It's only your friends who are willing to stoop so low.
"So why no attempt to refute any of the supposedly bogus claims made by Choice Ireland?"
I have no interest in engaging with Choice Ireland on this issue. Neither have I any interest in trying to stop them saying what they are saying.
"Because Plato knows that Choice Ireland is telling the truth..."
Only as they see it. Are Choice Ireland now claiming the monopoly on what is and what is not the truth.? They really do enjoy playing god.
"This clinic is not "legitimate" and it should be closed down."
Such intolerance is scary. Get a grip folks, you've over reached yourselves. By all means lets hear your views but calling for censorship and worse is reprehensible and unacceptable, particularly on this site.
So why no attempt to refute any of the supposedly bogus claims made by Choice Ireland?
Because Plato knows that Choice Ireland is telling the truth and this clinic tells lies.
This clinic is not "legitimate" and it should be closed down.
2Some evidence for Plato
by Commie Sun Jul 22, 2007 09:40
Plato asks for evidence that this clinic tells lies.
Read this - http://www.indymedia.ie/article/81414"
If that's the best you can do, I'll rest my case. There is no justification for anyone attempting to gag the people who run this clinic. They are expressing a view that is every bit as legitimate as yours. You are merely attempting to stop them expressing it because you don't like it. Stalinism. You do your cause no good with these jackboot antics.
Plato asks for evidence that this clinic tells lies.
Read this - http://www.indymedia.ie/article/81414
Socrates does not want an informed debate.
"I see "Plato" was so pleased with his/her rambling diatribe, that he/she posted as "Aristotle" praising the effort"
Untrue, but typical
"You shriek at anyone who draws attention to the facts about this clinic that you want buried."
On the contrary, I would like to see the message that these people have openly discussed,
"Women who are seeking abortions ARE in a vulnerable position"
This is the kernel of your misunderstanding. Not all pregnant women seeking advise are contemplating abortion. This shows clearly that what you want is only clinics who accommodate that option. You are attacking freedom of speech and are failing to recognise that fact.
"Anyone who denies this is a liar or a sheer raving lunatic - that you try to censor any mention of this bleedin' obvious fact by telling them that they are "insulting women" is another illustration of your total bankruptcy."
Read this again and undrline the bit that represents rational debate and repost
"This clinic goes out of its way to disguise its real nature. If they open the golden pages they will see by far the biggest ad is the one for this clinic (much bigger than the IFPA), and they will see a whole series of deceptive little tricks meant to give the impression that it is a clinic that refers people to Britain for abortions."
It is an offence to publish or to assist in the publication of misleading advertising. See a solicitor.
"On arriving, the women who make appointments are already in a vulnerable state, so their critical senses aren't as sharp as they might be otherwise."
This is insulting twaddle.
"To repeat - they tell LIES. Very simply, they tell people things that are not true, knowing very well that they are not true."
Such as? If you state their case then perhaps we can have a reasoned discussion. And no porkies please, that will only lower the standard of debate again to it's current level.
" Incidentally, anyone who follows Indymedia regularly will recognise the handle "Plato", you've used it to come out with racist and neo-Nazi comments in the past. I dare say we could take a wild guess and assume that you're a YD head - good to see you've been forced to retire the hurleys and can now only try to bully people from your keyboard."
Once again untrue. Name calling and false accusations are the trade mark of all your posts here. And you call me a bully.
I see "Plato" was so pleased with his/her rambling diatribe, that he/she posted as "Aristotle" praising the effort. Pathetic I'm afraid. You shriek at anyone who draws attention to the facts about this clinic that you want buried.
1) Women who are seeking abortions ARE in a vulnerable position, much more so than women who do not have to deal with crisis pregnancies. Anyone who denies this is a liar or a sheer raving lunatic - that you try to censor any mention of this bleedin' obvious fact by telling them that they are "insulting women" is another illustration of your total bankruptcy.
2) This clinic goes out of its way to disguise its real nature. "The world and his wife" most certainly does not know about it, at least not if the clinic itself has anything to do with it. They are targeting women with crisis pregnancies. If they open the golden pages they will see by far the biggest ad is the one for this clinic (much bigger than the IFPA), and they will see a whole series of deceptive little tricks meant to give the impression that it is a clinic that refers people to Britain for abortions.
3) On arriving, the women who make appointments are already in a vulnerable state, so their critical senses aren't as sharp as they might be otherwise. But regardless of that, the "advice" given inside is carefully crafted for the maximum emotional impact - they don't jump up and down saying "abortion is evil", they drip-feed false information over the space of an hour, designed to give a completely misleading picture and blackmail them into not having an abortion. To repeat - they tell LIES. Very simply, they tell people things that are not true, knowing very well that they are not true. No amount of intolerant shrieking from you can bury this fact. A Newstalk journalist infiltrated the clinic and recorded the whole procedure - it is exactly the same, word for word, as what was said to women from Choice Ireland who went there.
I notice you haven't been able to explain why they took down their sign outlining their real agenda within an hour of the picket outside their doors. I suppose we'll have the privilege of reading more dishonest nonsense, as you try to protect these vultures from scrutiny and criticism. Incidentally, anyone who follows Indymedia regularly will recognise the handle "Plato", you've used it to come out with racist and neo-Nazi comments in the past. I dare say we could take a wild guess and assume that you're a YD head - good to see you've been forced to retire the hurleys and can now only try to bully people from your keyboard.
Plato says "Clearly what Choice wants is only one advice available-have an abortion and all your problems are solved. Sorry fellas, there is another opinion on all of that."
That is not correct. Choice Ireland is pro-choice, they are for the RIGHT to have an abortion. They are for women being able to make an informed choice about what to do if they are pregnant and are unsure about having the child.
The problem with this clinic is that it tells lies about what abortion. It hinders any women who visit it,in good faith, from making an informed choice. It should be shut down or failing that women should be made aware of the lies that they tell.
Well done Plato. Seldom on Indymedia have we had the opportunity to see the arguments of the aggressive femofascists taken apart so conclusively and articulately.
You raise an interesting point. You would have thought that the people who advertise themselves as supporting a woman's right to choose would be out there picketing the Chinese embassy for denying just that right to a far larger number of women than ever have been, or ever will be, affected by Irish anti-abortion laws.
Socrates tells us
"I'm afraid you can repeat your lies all you like Plato, they are still lies. You know very well what the story is - the people who run this clinic do not just want to express their opinion. They want to deceive vulnerable people."
Once again, to fit the arguement, the picture is painted of the woman being incapable, vulnerable etc. If this is the case then the same applies when such women enter a clinic that has a pro-abortion ethos. Should these clinics be closed too?
The nonsense goes on,
"If they just wanted to express their opinion, they would be up front about it. Instead they hide their agenda"
The world and his wife know what the core values of this clinic are and if they don't, surely a few minutes within would show this. At that point, you simply leave if you are after different advice than what is on offer.
And another gem,
-"they present themselves as a pro-choice agency, give people the impression that they are happy to refer women to clinics in the UK, then wait until they have made their appointment and feed them a carefully crafted menu of lies and disinformation, designed to terrify women into not having abortions."
If these guys are that good at filling people with crap and getting them to do their bidding, why ain't they working for Bertie? Such talent would not be allowed to waste away doing community work.
And more offensive victimhood stuff,
"They are vultures preying on women in the most vulnerable position imaginable."
Women as weaklings, open to all sorts of manipulation? Give us a break, this is anti-women rhetoric nothing less and only serves to underline the weakness of your arguements.
And this peice of incisiveness,
"You obviously have no problem with this behaviour, but stop pretending that it is a question of "free speech"."
I have great problems with any attempt to stifle anothers point of view being expressed regardless of whether I agree with it or not. If you are free to tell pregnant women that abortion is a solution, then those that don't agree with that must also be free to deliver their message.
And more stalinism,
"If this clinic wanted to advertise itself as anti-abortion, there would be no problem. If the people involved wanted to give out flyers outlining their claims in the street, there would be no problem"
So they can express their view providing it is in a manner that you dictate?
And a final flourish,
"Instead they lure women in under false pretences and tell them lies"
Obviously you are of the view that all pregnant women who attend a clinic seeking advise are doing so with the intention of procuring an abortion. More women do so seeking support rather than abortion and surely it is a good thing that there are people willing to provide this service.Clearly what Choice wants is only one advice available-have an abortion and all your problems are solved. Sorry fellas, there is another opinion on all of that.
You use the quote, "saving women from abortion profiteers" , well there is a lot of truth in that whether you like it or not. Abortion is now practically an industry
But regardless of what you or I believe, we must never do anything that might interfer with our capacity to express our view. Totalitarianism is no great shakes. Ask the millions of Chinese women forced to have aborions. The other side of the coin.
How do they use psychological manipulation? As a free think I like to know all the facts before I call people radical. Next time I'm in town I'll pop in and see for myself.
I'm afraid you can repeat your lies all you like Plato, they are still lies. You know very well what the story is - the people who run this clinic do not just want to express their opinion. They want to deceive vulnerable people. If they just wanted to express their opinion, they would be up front about it. Instead they hide their agenda - they present themselves as a pro-choice agency, give people the impression that they are happy to refer women to clinics in the UK, then wait until they have made their appointment and feed them a carefully crafted menu of lies and disinformation, designed to terrify women into not having abortions. They are vultures preying on women in the most vulnerable position imaginable. You obviously have no problem with this behaviour, but stop pretending that it is a question of "free speech". If this clinic wanted to advertise itself as anti-abortion, there would be no problem. If the people involved wanted to give out flyers outlining their claims in the street, there would be no problem. Instead they lure women in under false pretences and tell them lies.
A real giveaway - during one of the pickets outside this clinic, they put up a sign saying "saving women from abortion profiteers" or something like that. Then there were plenty of trolls on this site saying "look, look, they ARE upfront about their agenda!" Of course, a few hours after the picket, the sign was taken down. Tell me why that way Plato?
Whether you like it or not there are two sides to this debate. Many people find abortion repugnant and that it diminishs human dignity. Also the use of the word "rogue" is straight from the propaganda department of George W's administration and is used to foster hostility against those that he disagrees with and wants to attack and silence.
Those who run this clinic have a legimate point of view and those that are present when that view is being expressed can ignore it and leave. The poster would have us believe that women who enter the place are either tied down and forced fed a point of view and made to act accordingly or are so meek that they cannot walk away. An insult to the women.
It is not hard to conclude that what Choice Ireland want is to deny access to the point of view that those who run the clinic express. An outright attack on freedom of expression
It must also be said that this is the empteen time that this post has appeared and has been discussed to bits. When is enough enough?
Just read above. What side is Harney on.?
Equal for both Men and Women I say. The Men do the Rape He is stronger that the woman, Fir enough if men could also get pregnant anfd let themhave the baby Then would the tables turn.
Choice is what everything is about, from Shopping to petrol prices, so why searate out women.? Women should ask those politicians when coming asking ffor votes to make it public their stance on pregnancy by rape, or on other grounds which the woman feels she unable to bring a child into this world.
Regulate now!
Free ,Safe and Legal abortion in Ireland.
Competent and Supportive Information for Women and Girls through a properly
supported National Health care System!
Comprehensive funding to Women's clinics and Rape Infrastructure Funding.
Well Done Choice , keep it going.