Pro-Israel protest in Dublin

by Dissident Sun Jan 11, 2009 23:51

Eirigi just posted this video http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=y4GJoeHIU_w

by Kate Mon Jan 12, 2009 01:02

Just looking for clarification on one issue. Can I ask what their motivation is. Is it this notion that the second coming of Christ can only happen in Isreal or is it just a clash of civilistions type ideal.... (Putting the "mentalist" back in fundamentalist). Did anyone who ws there get to the bottom of their message

by McCloskey Mon Jan 12, 2009 02:52

I don't think there is much point in looking for logic in these people's actions- they have simply got it into their heads that a Greater Israel is a Good Thing. They are led to this sort of thing by people like Pat Robertson in the U.S., whose seemingly theological support for Zionism based on bible study, just happens to dovetail very nicely with his extremely conservative views on many other matters.

But even this level of reflection does a disservice to the nature of the beliefs of the fundamentalists. They are often troubled people who simply need a solid direction in life and find it by blindly following a path no matter where it leads- even, as in this case, to supporting a murderous campaign against civilians who can't escape bombardment.

by Coilín Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:28

Thanks for reporting, TMcG.

The photos give a good sense of the scene. Unfortunately, for technical reasons, I can't easily view the video.

Would you mind filling me in on a few details re what was said?

"three or four stood at the barrier and shouted abuse at the Palestinian counter demonstration"
I have no clear idea what the word "abuse" means at the best of times. In this context, what words were used?

"everyone chanted at each other for a while."
What did the pro-Israel crowd chant at the embassy? (I already have a good idea of the kinds of things the Palestinian solidarity crowd have been chanting at a series of recent demos.)

Thanks in advance.

by Maidhc Ó Cathail Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:00

If you want to understand the bizarre uncritical support Christian Zionists give to Israel, I recommend the following informative and important lectures:

Reverend Stephen Sizer's "Christian Zionism: Road Map to Armageddon?" which can be watched on Google Video.

Charles Carlson's "The Cause of Our Conflict" (http://whtt.org/show/)

by Friend of Israel Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:06

Great is the LORD, and most worthy of praise,
in the city of our God, his holy mountain.
It is beautiful in its loftiness
the joy of the whole earth.
Like the utmost heights of Zaphon is Mount Zion,
the city of the Great King.

God is in her citadels;
he has shown himself to be her fortress.

When the kings joined forces,
when they advanced together,
they saw her and were astounded;
they fled in terror.

Trembling seized them there,
pain like that of a woman in labor.
You destroyed them like ships of Tarshish
shattered by an east wind.

As we have heard,
so have we seen
in the city of the LORD Almighty,
in the city of our God:
God makes her secure forever.
Selah

Within your temple, O God,
we meditate on your unfailing love.

Like your name, O God,
your praise reaches to the ends of the earth;
your right hand is filled with righteousness.

Mount Zion rejoices,
the villages of Judah are glad
because of your judgments.

Walk about Zion, go around her,
count her towers,

consider well her ramparts,
view her citadels,
that you may tell of them to the next generation.

For this God is our God for ever and ever;
he will be our guide even to the end.

by Coilín Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:48

Thanks, Friend of Israel.

I'm wondering how any Christian, or even any Jew, could support Israel in inflicting casualties at a Palestinian: Israeli ratio of 100 to one.

***
Jewish thinking first:
In my understanding, the old adage "An eye for an eye" was originally meant to define and LIMIT the compensation that the faithful would be obliged to pay for their own crimes:
Exodus 21:23-21:25
23 If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life,
24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
NB: The intent is, you shall give your own eye for your victim's eye, your tooth for his tooth, etc. But no more than this.

By the principle of reciprocity, this might be understood to define AND LIMIT the compensation that might be demanded:
Leviticus 24:19-24:20
19 Anyone who maims another shall suffer the same injury in return:
20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; the injury inflicted is the injury to be suffered.
NB: Even if we interpret this to justify retribution for injuries inflicted on Israelis by Hamas rocket fire, it does not provide a basis for taking MORE than an eye for an eye - e.g. to take out one hundred Palestinian eyes for each Israeli eye lost.

***
Christian thinking is consistent with the more ancient Jewish thinking, but emphasises forgiveness for the sake of those who in Jesus' time had taken a self-righteous interpretation:
Matthew 5:38-5:39 and 5:44
38 ‘You have heard that it was said, “An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.”
39 But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also;
...
44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

by Coilín - Friends of Friends Mon Jan 12, 2009 13:01

In passing, how about the following piece of ancient Jewish law?

Deuteronomy 19.14
14 You must not move your neighbour’s boundary marker, set up by former generations, on the property that will be allotted to you in the land that the Lord your God is giving you to possess.

How does Israel live up to this instruction with respect to the expulsion of the Palestinians in 1948 and with the last 60 years of progressive encroachment on the "boundary markers" of the Palestinians? If anything is being "wiped off the map", it seems to be Palestine:
Washington Post: Line of Separation
http://tinyurl.com/8oplzg

by dunk Mon Jan 12, 2009 13:18

6 injured in violent Gaza protests in Oslo (Norway - 10 de enero de 2009)
Thirty-one people arrested as some 1,000 pro-Palestinian protesters attack pro-Israeli demonstration in Norwegian capital; clashes said to be worst in Oslo since 1980s
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2162164/posts
+ http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3653467,00.html

Pro-Israel protest ends with fights, Oslo Norway
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/pro-israel-protest-en...LRV05

09.01.09 A peaceful and legal protest against Hamas in Oslo turns into fights between the pro-Israelis and the police on one side VS muslims and lefties on the other. The the whole protest got interrupted when anti-Israelis started rioting and vandalizing the city.

Riot in Oslo, Norway
Here are some photos from the demonstration that took place in Oslo, Norway, Thursday this week. It was the demonstration that marked the resistance against Israeli attacks on Gaza. Pro-Israeli groups and politicians gave speeches, which ended in revolt and resistance from Palestinian sympathizers. They consisted of Palestinians, Muslims and ethnic Norwegians.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1...49349

Related vid
Clashes during a demonstration in support of Gaza in Oslo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgvmliKob2A
clashes between protestors and the police in Oslo during a demonstration in support of Gaza

Caption: Video Id: KgvmliKob2A Type: Youtube Video
Embedded video Youtube Video

by Pgibson Mon Jan 12, 2009 13:24

If 3000 missiles rained down on Dublin from Howth I am sure that Dublin people would be inclined to raise an army and sort Howth out.

The present tragic situation really is as Medieval and simple as that.

by dunk Mon Jan 12, 2009 13:48

Pgibson...

The common myth is that Isreals agression was in defense, unfortunately this is not the case. The media and all who want an end to the massacre must get word out as to the real cause of the breakdown in the ceasefire.

The embedded Youtube vid from DEMOCRACY NOW points out the origins of the conflict, of which this is the key:

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: Well, the record is fairly clear. You can find it on the Israeli website, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs website...Hamas had adhered to the ceasefire from June 17th until November 4th. On November 4th, The record is clear: Israel broke the ceasefire by going into the Gaza and killing six or seven Palestinian militants. At that point—and now I’m quoting the official Israeli website—Hamas retaliated or, in retaliation for the Israeli attack, then launched the missiles.

Former Amb. Martin Indyk vs. Author Norman Finkelstein: A Debate on Israel’s Assault on Gaza and the US Role in the Conflict
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/8/former_amb_martin_...uthor

Also, more recently from above dialogue:

former US President Jimmy Carter: Israel Broke Gaza Truce

Meanwhile, former President Jimmy Carter has denounced the Israeli attack on the Gaza Strip. Writing in the Washington Post, Carter criticizes Israel for breaking the six-month ceasefire by launching its November 4th attack that killed seven Hamas militants. He also faults Israel for failing to uphold its commitment to ease the humanitarian blockade of Gaza.
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/9/headlines#7

Now you know, please help break the myth that is causing all this death and destruciton...

Caption: Video Id: PH_bcbJ2K_M Type: Youtube Video
Embedded video Youtube Video

by Con Carroll Mon Jan 12, 2009 13:57

excellent video Eirigi

by Justin Morahan Mon Jan 12, 2009 14:09

This is one version of Psalm 48 from the Bible. Like many parts of the Bible it is a pro-Israel poem - the old Israel of the Bible.

It has, like some other Psalms a sense of gloating over the difficulties of the enemy, but doesn't go as far as the last lines of Psalm 147 which says

"O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed, happy will he be, who rewards you as you have served us.
How blessed will he be who seizes and dashes your babies against the rocks."

Christian exigists would most probably reject the sentiment of this verse. They would probably say that even though the Bible is the word of God it has all the hallmarks of the human instruments who physically wrote the lines and that these writers can put their own imprint and prejudices on passages that can counter the inspiration they are, according to Christian belief, receiving.

The present Israel, however, while mostly appearing secular to the world, seems to have retained the worst interpretation of passages such as this and put them into practice in Gaza while pretending to bemoan the fate of the children they dash against the rocks.

And in a further irony, many Rabbis reject the killing of children in Gaza and are implacably opposed to the present State of Israel constantly criticizing its use of force to create and maintain a State. One such is Rabbi Yisroel Weiss. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeaZuj7ruwM

How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones
against the rock. Psalm 137

by Rónan - Unaffiliated Mon Jan 12, 2009 14:27

Andy,

By definition, praying for more deaths of children and innocents is "thuggary (sic) and hatred".

To point out the bleedin' obvious, Christ's own central message was "Love thy neighbour as thyself", not to mention a few of the 10 commandments - Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt no steal, thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour, Thou shalt not covet thy neighbours house or field...or anything that belongs to thy neighbour"

For humanity's sake, give up the religion if you're not going to follow it.

by Pgibson Mon Jan 12, 2009 15:48

I never excuse any Israeli barbarities any more than I excuse the barbarities of their enemies.
The Extremists on both sides are Medieval in my opinion.
From another age.
A large factor behind both barbarities is another one.
The one nicknamed :
"The Opium of the People."
.

by dunk Mon Jan 12, 2009 17:17

This is not against Jews or anti semitism, the global protests which are happening all over the planet are against the state violence from the state of Israel. Many Jews around the world, both in and out of Israel, are leading demos to stop the slaughter:

From Democracy Now:
Tens of Thousands Demonstrate Globally Against Israeli Actions, Jewish Women Among Those Leading Protests

We speak with two Jewish women for peace: Dorothy Zellner, one of 15 Jews who have signed a call for a protest in front of the Israeli Consulate in New York and Judy Rebick, who organized a sit-in comprised of Jewish Canadian women at the Israeli consulate in Toronto.

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/12/tens_of_thousands...ainst

10, 000 people from all over Israel protested against the war on Gaza on 3rd January, 2009. At the end they were attacked as traitors by right-wingers and abandoned by police who were supposed to protect them.
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/01/417186.html
+ http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/events/1231029668

Traditional orthodox Jews against their states massacres

Israeli Jews call for "Stop Zionist Terrorist massacre in Gaza"

US and Canadian Jews against the massacre: Judy Rebick occupies Israel embassy in Canada

by gazasympathiser Mon Jan 12, 2009 17:23

That brave Jews are prepared to stand up and be counted when it comes to the murderous activities of the Zionist war-machine.

by Pgibson Mon Jan 12, 2009 18:14

God seem to be on everybody's side simultaneously.
Hamas invokes god as well.
The very same god......
.

by EC Mon Jan 12, 2009 19:48

At time like these it's important to remember the long history of Jews in struggles for social justice. There are many, many Jews who oppose the occupation and invasion of Gaza and many young Israeli men and women who have refused to serve in the Israeli army.

Below is a statement from the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network

**************************************************
We stand with the majority.
We will not be silent on Gaza.

We write with grief and rage as we watch the horrifying Israeli air and ground attacks on Gaza. As Jews committed to ending Zionism, the founding ideology of Israel, and all forms of colonialism, we stand in solidarity with the Palestinian people, who continue to struggle in the face of these attacks, much as they have against more than 60 years of ethnic cleansing and racism. As Joseph Massad recently wrote, Gaza is in uprising against genocide, and is receiving today the same indifference from the capitals of the West that the rebels in the Warsaw Ghetto received in 1943.

We stand with the hundreds of thousands who have taken the streets in solidarity with Gaza’s resistance. We stand with all those who struggle against racism, dispossession and genocide.

We stand with the majority. We will not be silent on Gaza.

We reject Israel’s pretense to act in response to rocket attacks on Israel by Hamas. Israel broke the ceasefire on November 4, 2008, while world attention was focused on U.S. elections.

What the Israeli government calls “security” is fundamentally opposed to the real safety of all people living in the region. Residents of Sderot and other towns bordering Gaza have begged the government of Israel to maintain the cease-fire and accused it of “wasting that period of calm, instead of using it to advance understanding and begin negotiations.” With United States, European Union, and Egyptian collusion, Israel imposed on Gaza a siege and blockade for over two years, intentionally preventing its economic recovery, degrading its civilian infrastructure, attempting to dismantle self-governance, and preventing travel and obstructing humanitarian aid. That siege, which was and continues to be a gross violation of human rights and a crime against humanity, led directly to the present escalation. As of today, Israeli forces have killed over 700 people and injured thousands. Israel has bombed mosques, universities, police headquarters, roads, office buildings, and residential neighborhoods, and schools, causing indescribable and horrible destruction. This isn’t defense. This isn’t a war between two sides. This is terrorism. This is genocide.

We stand with the majority. We will not be silent on Gaza.

As Jews, we have an additional responsibility to speak and to act against these despicable acts, because we are heirs to the victims of a genocide, because Israel is claiming to “defend” us through the ethnic cleansing of Palestine with the ultimate goal of erasing the Palestinian people, and also because of the role played by the Jewish organizations in the United States and the West in justifying, perpetrating, and escalating Israeli state terrorism against Palestinians.

We recall that the violence in Gaza today is the inevitable outcome—the latest link in a chain of terror—that results from an ideology based on the dispossession of the indigenous people of Palestine in favor of European Jews. Just as the ideology of White racism was the backbone of Apartheid in South Africa, so the ideology of Zionism explains the history of violence in Palestine, the ethnic cleansing of 1948, the occupation of the West bank and Gaza in 1967, and the many massacres that Israel perpetrated periodically since 1948 to the present one in Gaza. The maintenance of the Israeli state as a state founded on and perpetuating Jewish privilege requires the denial and attempted annihilation of the Palestinian people.

We recall that unless this ideology is delegitimized and defeated, the violence in the Middle East will continue to escalate until either Palestinian or Jewish existence in the area ends, and possibly both. Racism and colonial domination will never be the basis for peace.

We stand with the majority. We will not be silent on Gaza.

We insist on an immediate end to Israel’s assault, a complete withdrawal of all Israeli forces, a complete and unconditional end to the siege, and the restoration and extension of the ceasefire. We insist on the establishment of a special international tribunal for investigating the crimes of the Israeli leadership of this siege.

We affirm the urgent need for Jewish resistance to Zionism and stand committed to the extrication of Jewish history, politics, community, and culture from the grip of Zionism.

We situate our work in a long legacy of Jewish people throughout history who have stood in solidarity with others in common struggles against all forms of racism, empire building, and repression. As a growing sector of the Palestine solidarity movement, we call upon all Jews of conscience to take a strong stand against the current escalation of violence, as well as the murderous ground upon which Zionist ideology and the Israeli state has been constructed. We call on Jews to put an end to complicity, to break the silence, and to confront the fallacy of a Zionist consensus. We call on anti-Zionist Jews around the world to organize in escalation against the massacres on Gaza, and to continue to support Palestinian resistance through campaigns of Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions, and through actions that target their own governments’ financial and political support for Israel.

We stand with the majority. We will not be silent on Gaza.

WE call on you to JOIN US in continued ACTION!

by Israel Support Mon Jan 12, 2009 22:53

Thank you to those who stood with Israel in Dublin. Nobody wants this war. We all hope that the fighting will soon come to an end. But Israel did not start this war, Hamas did. Prior to the Israeli invasion Hamas fired 150 rockets into Israel. Please bear this in mind.

by dunk Mon Jan 12, 2009 23:44

Dear Isreal supporter

Please see post above "Breaking the "The Palestinians started this war" myth..." in regard to the FACTS that it was Israel who broke the cease fire and on whose own government website stated that Hamas retaliated... watch and listen to both Norman Finkelstein and Jimmy Carter hammer the point home. Now please help break this myth that has been going on which is the main argument people are using in defense of the slaughter that is now happening, I think its over 900 now....

by gazasympathiser Tue Jan 13, 2009 13:15

Robert Fisk predicted exactly the Israeli lies that are being used in a recent article:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/....html

"What is amazing is that so many Western leaders, so many presidents and prime ministers and, I fear, so many editors and journalists, bought the old lie; that Israelis take such great care to avoid civilian casualties.

Israel claims it is fighting our war against "international terror".

The Israelis claim they are fighting in Gaza for us, for our Western ideals, for our security, for our safety, by our standards.

Since they may well be reheated in the coming hours, here are some of them: that the Palestinians killed their own refugees, that the Palestinians dug up bodies from cemeteries and planted them in the ruins, that ultimately the Palestinians are to blame because they supported an armed faction, or because armed Palestinians deliberately used the innocent refugees as cover.

The Sabra and Chatila massacre was committed by Israel's right-wing Lebanese Phalangist allies while Israeli troops, as Israel's own commission of inquiry revealed, watched for 48 hours and did nothing.

When Israel was blamed, Menachem Begin's government accused the world of a blood libel.

After Israeli artillery had fired shells into the UN base at Qana in 1996, the Israelis claimed that Hizbollah gunmen were also sheltering in the base.

It was a lie.

The more than 1,000 dead of 2006 – a war started when Hizbollah captured two Israeli soldiers on the border – were simply dismissed as the responsibility of the Hizbollah.

Israel claimed the bodies of children killed in a second Qana massacre may have been taken from a graveyard. It was another lie. The Marwahin massacre was never excused. T

he people of the village were ordered to flee, obeyed Israeli orders and were then attacked by an Israeli gunship.

The refugees took their children and stood them around the truck in which they were travelling so that Israeli pilots would see they were innocents.

Then the Israeli helicopter mowed them down at close range.

Only two survived, by playing dead. Israel didn't even apologise.

Twelve years earlier, another Israeli helicopter attacked an ambulance carrying civilians from a neighbouring village – again after they were ordered to leave by Israel – and killed three children and two women.

The Israelis claimed that a Hizbollah fighter was in the ambulance.

It was untrue.

I covered all these atrocities, I investigated them all, talked to the survivors.

So did a number of my colleagues.

Our fate, of course, was that most slanderous of libels: we were accused of being anti-Semitic."

by Bazooka Joe Tue Jan 13, 2009 18:17

These sad souls are only pawns of the Christian Zionist leaders in the US who are a loose association of CIA psychological warfare groups.

http://www.wrmea.com/archives/April_2007/0704058.html
http://www.takeoverworld.info/cbn.html
http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/person.htm

by john devine Tue Jan 13, 2009 21:40

They number of Zionists in Ireland is minute.

They are a very small but very vocal minority.

They occupy the extreme spectrum of opinion in Ireland.

Who are they?

A Mr Paddy Monaghan - business man and fundamental Evangelical protestant is the main mover - he has organised trips to Israel and was behind Power to Change campaign 8 years ago

David Quinn - columnist and director of The Iona Institute - long time Zionist, as was his father before him. Former editor of The Irish Catholic.

Eoghan Harris - columnist and FF proposed Senator - been in more parties that Marlyn Monroe. Changed from Stickie to Unionist.

Ian O'Doherty - writes like a Taxi-driver having a rant. Not to be taken seriously

People interested in defending the human rights of all in Palestine and Israel should try to contradict and where possible sideline these 4 extreme Zionists as much as possible.

Chistian Zionism is a heresy, a 18th century creation of fundamentalist protestants. Incredibly it wants to get all Jews into 'Israel' that some can convert to Jesus and the rest be destroyed - nothing very Christian about that.

Before WWII virtually all orthodox Jewish rabbis were opposed to the creation of Israel on religious grounds.

This must be highlighted in war being waged against innocent Palestinian people.

As much as I am opposed to Zionist war machine, it does not mean that I support Hamas and its Islamic jihad. Lets support moderates in both sides of this war.

by The Truth Thu Jan 15, 2009 00:23

You say 50 to 70 for Pro Israel March.Media says 100 to 120. Media says 800 people at Pro Palestinan March.You say 1200.hhhhmmmmmm

Oh and the picture of the orthodox jews.Sad sad and how badly educated you are.they are the Naturi Aktei sect. A tiny sect within Orthodox Judaism that also reject the Holocaust.Most Ultra Orthodox or Haredi are Chasidism. They are not anti Israeli. 12 of the anti Israeli sect turned up in the Ultra Orthodox area of Israel.Wow twelve.For the anti Israeli protest.

The Pro Palestinans love to get them out in London.U can maybe get 20 or so.Just to prove your not anti Smetic.

Yet you have A Sinn Fein Politican calling alan shatter an Irish Jew a nazi.

Seruously educate youselves a wee bit

by fact checker Thu Jan 15, 2009 00:48

Avi Shlaim, an Israeli who served in the IDF says that the IDF broke the ceasefire and has lied about the numbers of rockets from Gaza. He calls both Hamas, and the IDF terrorists.

Read the link below where he mentions that Hamas did honour the ceasefire, and that by stopping their own rockets, and clamping down on rockets from other groups, the average number of rockets per month dropped from 179 before the ceasefire to just 3 per month.

read more at the link.