'The National Interest' - A Myth Fabricated By The Irish Government And Their Partner Shell

by North West - Shell to Sea Mon Aug 15, 2005 14:56

These men are in the process of negotiating power from the Government and the corporations back to the people of Ireland.

They face a continued uphill struggle and can only succeed with the support of the people of Ireland.

All across the country people are becoming more aware of what's going on. Nuns, farmers and fishermen are joining forces with programmers, poets and engineers. They're talking about it in the pubs, the shops and at football matches.

This is a a true community based campaign that has reached the highways and byways and cannot be stopped.

The Rossport 5 are genuine, courageous and respectful men. They deserve our support.

Today, we are preparing to gather at the ancient hill of Tara where people are gathering from the four corners of Ireland to assert our rights and our power.

Please join us!

'Shell to Sea!' http://www.shelltosea.com

by mike Mon Aug 15, 2005 15:02

.....or we can all choose to saty at home and let the law of the land take its course. These men have had their time to protest and had their say - due process should be allowed take its course. The plan is approved - lets get on with it.

by Mayo person Mon Aug 15, 2005 15:20

Mike, yes, due process should be allowed for. This means that, for example, Shell E&P Ireland should be made to adhere to the British Standard BS 8010 in relation to the safety spec of the pipeline, which they claim to be using. Have a look at the code. Firstly, it applies to pipelines with a pressure of 100 BAR and does not examine pipelines above this pressure.

This proposed upstream production pipeline in Mayo will have an operating pressure of 120 BAR and a maximum operating pressure of 345 BAR. Shell now claim that it will rarely if ever reach a pressure of 345 BAR - this is utter spin, as the Quantitative Risk Assessment (QRA) states that it WILL reach this pressure, particularly in the first few years of the project, as this is the pressure of the gas at the well. You can download this QRA at the relevant department's website - link below.

Secondly, the British Code BS8010 which Shell claim to adhere to, requires a safety corridor of 1700m. The safety distance (minimum distance pipeline should be from nearest dwelling) is calculated by dividing the safety corridor distance by 10 = which gives you 170m. Shell again claim that 70m is the minimun distance required - they are either very bad at maths or they found that 70m was the shortest distance they could find by zig-zagging their way around the houses in Rossport and therefore decided that "70m" would be their magic number. So if you demand due process, please demand that Shell adhere to these regulations themselves.

Broadhaven Bay is a Special Area of Conservation, and yet the pollutants and byproducts of the refining process on land will be dumped at Erris head (this is another pipe which will run alongside the upstream one containing the gas), rather than pumping them back into the sea bed. The local fishermen are not getting due process here. The "machair" habitat, exclusive to parts of Scotland and the West of Ireland, is also being crossed by the pipeline just after the landfall, and is also an SAC. The EIS chose to ignore this. So will SEPIL and the Irish Government please adhere to European regulations?

I could go on, but I think you need to inform yourself of the details of this case.

by paul o toole Mon Aug 15, 2005 17:55

These five men are not in contempt . They are all that there is standing between their families saftey and Shell/Statoil's and the Elete of this so called republic's pursuit of wealth.
Natural justice would allow these men to interveen in the construction of an apparatus which could threaten their lives and the lives of their loved ones. Thats the obvious bit.
Furthermore,It is impossible to disobey a court order even if only later proven to be invalid. If it took the judge a while to figure this one out for himself thats his problem.
The judge is who should be held in contempt by these men, for preventing their very legitimate rights to protect their families, and be 'secure in their person' under the constitution. A government which trots out laudable assertions about the sanctity of the family and then locks up those who attempt to carry out their duty as parents should be behind bars themselves. Is this the definition of a banana republic?

I respect these men for their refusing to humble themselves before this judge and the courts which corruptly denies them their liberty, for standing up for their families welfare.
I have read reports that the Corrib field alone has an estimated Five Trillion Euro in gas which was handed over to Shell by Bertie Aherne and Ray Burke (the proven criminal) for FREE!!!. Thats a million euro for each Irish citizen. In a world where Fuel is on the way out, but not before it shoots up in price, it would seem there is enough gas to keep our old folk warm for another melinium and build them a few hospitals instead of putting them waiting on trollies. Mabey this is where the Dail is getting the money to cover the cost of the last 17 payrises it voted in for itself.

by Louis Mon Aug 15, 2005 18:07

Wow,

I am in awe

I was completely unaware that we had so many pipeline engineering experts residing in this great little country of ours,

You guys should really consider going over to the other side, or consider the middle east or other similar places where they have serious shit when it comes to pipelines and gas plants etc.,

by Starstruck - Shell to Sea Dublin Mon Aug 15, 2005 18:35

Dempsey shows his true colours,not employed by the Iirsh people but by big business....who's yer daddy?

Fianna Fail PLC Ltd,Shame

by Mayo person Mon Aug 15, 2005 18:53

Unfortunately, people have had to do a lot of research on these issues themselves as the people who are employed and paid to take responsibility for the safety/interests of the public have neglected to do their jobs properly. Had I not provided facts which could be sourced, I would probably have been accused of misinformation and making things up. I am not a pipeline engineer or an engineer at all, but I can read, and I recommend that you do a little reading yourself, and please refrain from resorting to infantile and offensive comments when a counter-argument eludes you.

by Al Mon Aug 15, 2005 19:18

Mayo person - its a pity that the research you have undertaken is not thorough and very selective. Most of the posts in here are complete drivel. problem is with all you people that you wont accept what you dont want to hear - even if its accurate!

by eeekkkkk Mon Aug 15, 2005 19:24

you're at he flying pig-human crack too today?

Yoy say he is selective inaccurate etc. Not a single shred of backup for anything whatsoever in your post is provided.

His is sourced. Who to believe? A self admitted ff supporting guard (because'they'll back the gardai') with nothing to back up his opinion except bluster or someone who took time to research and source his comment?

by Aidan Mon Aug 15, 2005 19:28

eeekkkk - all the relevant information i referred to is available through the project development plan and the EIS. Your drivel is the regurgitation of the rantings of fanciful experts in every field bar the gas business.

by eeeekkkkkk Mon Aug 15, 2005 19:33

so you're a gas expert? employed by who?

I was referring to this " Most of the posts in here are complete drivel. problem is with all you people that you wont accept what you dont want to hear - even if its accurate!"

If you want to convince people of anything detail and sources are needed.

You come across as a company shill.

by John Mon Aug 15, 2005 20:04

Al and Louis are totally correct. And Paul O' Toole is totally wrong. Five trillion euro, my ass. Do you know how much that is? Can you count? The total annual value of world oil production at $55 dollars per barrel is about one trillion euro. So, you are claiming that this one tiny gas field off the coast of Ireland has 5 times as much energy equivalent as the entire annual oil production of the rest of the world. Some people on this site will believe anything. Cop yourself on and consider changing your name to Paul O' Foole.

by eeekkkkk Mon Aug 15, 2005 21:10

Shell welcomes talks offer from Mayo men
15 August 2005 19:47

Shell E & P Ireland has welcomed an offer from the five Mayo men who have been jailed for their opposition to the Corrib gas pipeline to begin talks with the company if they are released from jail. 

The company said it was a very significant step towards dialogue but again repeated that it would not be moving to lift the injunction it took against the five men.

Shell said their continued imprisonment was a matter between them and the High Court and it could not interfere with that process.
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The offer came in an open letter issued by the five men from jail, where they have been for seven weeks.

In the letter, the men call on Shell and the Government to lift the injunction which led to their imprisonment.

They say they are willing to accept Shell's offer of immediate talks to resolve the current impasse and want the company and the Government partners to stand down their injunction at this time so that they can leave prison to attend these talks.

The five men oppose the pipeline, which will run through their land, because they claim it will be a health and safety hazard.

Shell says it wants to build the pipeline to the highest international standards.

It has now suspended work on the project to allow for a full public debate on the issues.

by eeekkkk Mon Aug 15, 2005 21:12

"Al and Louis are totally correct. "

about nothing. No backup of a single solitary point they made.

just because PoT has figures wrong does not change that. At least Pot provides 'facts' which may be checked.

by John Mon Aug 15, 2005 21:19

So you admit Paul Pot got his sums wrong? Then they aren't facts or even 'facts' but crap.

by eeekkkk Mon Aug 15, 2005 21:34

at least if assertions are backed up with something tangible that can be objectively checked then those assertions can be challenged if wrong.

What our recently arrived swarm of mayo obsessed 'flying pig-humans' do is make broad statements and assertions like 'pigs can fly' or 'shell is wonderful for the people of ireland' without anything to back these up.

worse than useless in terms of elucidating anything - and that is indeed the point of the flim flammers - fog up the 'optics' so no-ne can see clearly.

by Louis Mon Aug 15, 2005 21:43

i'm no expert, and i'm not claiming to be an expert in such a specialised area as the one being discussed at great length here

however i know enough to know that a gigantic worldwide corporation like shell aint in the business of investing the guts of a billion in something thats going to blow up, it just aint

i have read ( i bet you have also) that the thickness of the pipe being used is an incredible 27mm thick - now that is unprecedented in irish pipeline terms FACT!!!!!

and before you say it, i do not work for shell or any other party involved

by Shane Mon Aug 15, 2005 21:54

Who do you work for Shell or the government?

by Shane Mon Aug 15, 2005 21:55

Otherwise how would you know that was going to be the first thing to come to peoples minds. You may be a pro but you're sloppy.

by paul o toole Tue Aug 16, 2005 02:03

Mabey John, you could verify the value of the resources at Corrib which were handed over to shell and statoil by our present Taoiseach and his partner Mr.Burke. I could care less what it's value is and only what good it could do for the people of this island and elsewhere who could use it.
By the way ,my figures are correct and verified, and you should think in future before you open your mouth or write in future, it's tough I know but it pays off especially when you are wrong and name calling at the same time.
Not only is Corrib handed over, but anything found under the sea within Irish waters. If this does not interest you John, why would figures and facts.Trollers on this thread are unique in as much as they have not put up a single argument.
The longer these men are locked up for there right to be safe in their own homes it becomes even more obvious that the Government is shamelesley doing Shell's bidding.

by Nelson Veron Tue Aug 16, 2005 09:51

SHELL TO COURT
There seems to be enough to sucessfully appeal the contempt order.
Shell work was not in compliance with the planning order given.

Thereby, the 5 men in jail objecting to the work being done were correct.

Thereby, the contempt order is unlawful and their imprisonment is also unlawful.

Is this right?

Do 'Shell To Sea' have a lawyer that could check this?

If correct, then an appeal could be made to a higher court.

Also, the second or third right in the European Convention of Human Rights is the right to freedom.

The seperated planning permissions that Shell are working under are illegal under European law.

An urgent application could be made to the European Court of Human Rights to gain the mens freedom?

True or not?

Any real lawyers out there?

Nelson Veron.

by Robin Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:24

Gentlemen......please. Do you not realise that this whole situation where you are throwing misinformation over and back at each other is wrong. This drives the rumour mill crazy with people reading this and then going quoting it in the general. I read an article at the weekend where a "local campaigner" stated that one cigarette butt could start the next hiroshima. I mean if this is being published in the national media, its no wonder people are afraid. Facts are: the pipe is 2 -3m underground, with a wall of 27.1mm thickness, welded by automatic welders specifically designed for that purpose, which are tested twice yearly. Every joint is tested and inspected three times so a leak is not possible. A rupture is not possible either because the onshore section of the pipeline is designed to the same specification as the offshore, where it is susceptible to much greater pressures and risk of rupture than the onshore. Please stop scaring the people of Rossport to bits with this over hyped campaign which has turned ordinary local residents into frightened camapigners who feel that they are about to be slaughtered.

by Duine Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:41

Seo sampla den sceitheadh gáis "nach féidir a tharlú".

by Reader Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:56

You both speak of misinformation yet you seem uninformed yourselves:

Aidan: where did you get your hands on the project development plan? I would really appreciate it if you could place a link to the document on this site, as no-one else seems to be able to get their hands on it. In regard to the EIS, it did not include or refer to all the SACs in the area - therefore I don't think it healthy for you to use that as your source of sound data.

Robin: the pipeline will not be at a depth of 2-3 metres underground, but at a depth of 1.2 metres. This is fact. Check this week's Foinse, where there is actually a photograph of an official sign in Rossport declaring this to be the case. In projects which Shell cite as parallels, these production pipelines (not transmission pipelines a la Bord Gáis, which are not comparable) (a) do not go through populated areas (b) the pipelines are set far deeper into the ground.

Accidents do happen, and that's what they are. No-one intends for them to happen. And if there were a leakage of gas which is not odorised, then I presume that a cigarette could possibly ignite the fuel. Don't be so dismissive of people's fears.

by Peter Dunn Tue Aug 16, 2005 13:02

"You cannot hope to bribe or twist
Thank God the Irish Politician
(except Burke and others)
But seeing what unbribed she'll do
Thank God there is no reason to"

The Norwegian People are getting 38% of our gas profits and the Irish people nothing.

No royalties...No tax.

That's a good one.

by Clarifier Tue Aug 16, 2005 13:10

"The Norwegian People are getting 38% of our gas profits and the Irish people nothing."

I think you will find that most of "The Norwegian People" will see very little of that. Except of course for the shareholders.

by eeekkkkk Tue Aug 16, 2005 13:50

over 60%, are owned directly by the norwegian state.

by Not bull sp eeeekkkk Tue Aug 16, 2005 14:35

...but Norway has a very well developed and successful exploration industry. Norway has many many oil and gas commercial finds. Exploration companies do business there because there is an inherently good chance of finding something. Ireland is the opposite, inherently difficult and very unsuccessful. If you had a choice to spend 10 million euro would you choose the place where there was a one in four chance of making more money or would you choose a place where there was a one in 66 chance? Every single exploration initiative bar Corrba dn Kinsale that was initiated by exploration comanies has been a failure. That is millions and millions of euro risked by these companies and lost - gone forever. You dont get tax relief on millions lost, you dont get it back. You want to share in the rewards - are you prepared to share the risk? Would you support a tax to raise money to allow the Irish state particpate in these unsuccessful exploration exercises?

Now try and understand why Irish Governments decided to try and make it a little bit more attractive to exploration companies. Despite this, the vast majority of these companies turn their backs on Ireland and spend their money taking their chances on the more attractive opportunities elsewhere.

by Síog Tue Aug 16, 2005 14:35

Louis, Louis, Louis,

Do you not call it "serious shit" when peoples land rights are given away to a private company? When the compulsory purchase is carried out before any plan is submitted? When unconsented work has been carried out since the very beginning of this project? That Vincent McGrath, one of the Rossport 5, was only communicated with twice - once when it was believed he owned land through which the proposed pipeline was to go through and again by the injunction? (They refused to meet him in between as they do not consider him a landowner).

As for the "incredible" thickness you claimed. What the hell is incredible about 2.7cm, even if that was the actual thickness?

Your perceptions are shot if you think there is no serious shit happening in Mayo.

Look at the experts we do have - Padraic Campbell, Mike Cunningham to name only two. Other locals have had no choice but to become expert. Do not dare knock the work they have all done in the last five years.

by Aidan Tue Aug 16, 2005 14:39

ahem!

by Ann Tue Aug 16, 2005 14:39

"a little bit more attractive"

Please say you are only joking?!?

What a load of bull. It is, in fact the most advantagous package in the world.

Tell the truth or stay quiet. Its bad enough listening to Pyles "misinformation". Its not at all helpful to any one.

by eeeekkkk Tue Aug 16, 2005 14:49

Best approach to the inclement weather is the release of large amounts of hot air by gently pricking said flying pig-humans and deflating their windbags with the judicious application of a little well directed sense.

They are burying the pipe in a wobbly bog landscape demonstrably prone to big mud/landslides

scary area indeed

by Interested Tue Aug 16, 2005 15:01

I would also like to find out where Aidan managed to get his hands on the project development plan - are you exposing yourself as an insider in this Government/SEPIL deal?

by No bull sp eeekkkk Tue Aug 16, 2005 15:08

yes eeeekkkk I see you just throw insults and avoid the issue. .......and then lecture others!!!

by eeekkkkkk Tue Aug 16, 2005 15:12

"They are burying the pipe in a wobbly bog landscape demonstrably prone to big mud/landslides"

I reserve my right to refer to anonymous making broad statements without a whiff of backup as of the believing in 'flying pig' type members of human race.

ie wilfully blind to anything in the realm of facticity that does not serve their purpose nor their master(s)

by groundhog Tue Aug 16, 2005 16:40

Did a google search for 'flying pig human', and found one of your previous comments on flying pig humans (8th from top of page):

by eeekkkkk Tue Aug 16, 2005 17:20

http://www.google.ie/search?q=flying+pig-human&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&filter=0

by Horse feathers Tue Aug 16, 2005 18:09

Can anyone, in as simple a fashion as possible, put down a refutation that the Rossport 5 are NIMBYs? I think this would be useful to counter the claim that they are heros by circumstance and that if the pipe was built elsewhere, they wouldn't care.

by Curious Tue Aug 16, 2005 18:17

Are you offering up your own back garden. Maybe we can arrange to have an incinerator built near you as you are a non-nimby. All in the 'National interest' of course.

by eeekkk Tue Aug 16, 2005 18:21

Well put it this way - they are convinced that the pipe running past their local school and near lots of houses is unprecedented - untested - badly located on unstable bogland - and that they and their community are the guinea pigs for a dangerous experiment.

If they stay locked up then the de facto legal precedent will exist in ireland for the government to use CPOs on behalf of any corporation to force residents anywhere in the country with the threat of ongoing imprisonment to accept things they may consider dangerous experiments in their back yards or on their lands.

It takes away peoples rights to defend themselves and their communities and families in any meaningful way from potentially DANGEROUS commercial developments.

I think it's fascistic (fascism as melding of state and corporations a la mussolini) personally and a very scary development here.

by George Tue Aug 16, 2005 19:00

Well put it this way - they are convinced that the pipe running past their local school and near lots of houses is unprecedented - untested - badly located on unstable bogland - and that they and their community are the guinea pigs for a dangerous experiment.

Do you think there is any possibility they are wrong in what they are convinced of ? Any possibility at all?

Without being disrespectful and I emphasise "in my opinion" Shell have the global history, knowledge and expertise in this area - we dont

they must be regarded as the competent authority, as opposed to the Rossport people or any other local irish community for that matter

by R. Isible Tue Aug 16, 2005 19:18

I know you'll find this hard to believe, but they are motivated by profit not by care for the citizens of Ireland or any other country they operate in. In fact they've been fingered for:
- screwing up the Ogoni people in Nigeria by spilling millions of gallons of oil into the Niger River delta on farmland
[ Deborah Robinson et al, Ogoni: The Struggle Continues (Geneva, Switzerland: World Council of Churches, December, 1996). , P.O. Box 2100, 1211 Geneva 2, Switzerland; telephone (+41) 22 791-6111; fax: (+41) 22 791-0361 ]

- providing (through a contractor) arms and ammunition to the Nigerian military dictatorship who then murdered at least 1500 Ogoni protesting Shell's unwillingness to clean up the mess they had made. This culminated in the execution of Ken Saro Wiwa

- polluting the Mississipi river (see URL below)

- recklessly endangering salmon breeding grounds in the Sakhalin Islands (see URL below)

Now, you may think that Shell would be afraid to pull that shit in a first world democracy. I agree. I don't think they'd try it in Norway, or if they did they wouldn't get away with it.

Are they going to get away with it here, or are you "George" going to sit back and let the Shell "experts" tell you that you should trust Big Daddy Shell?

Who cares "George"? You just live here beside the pipe after all, don't you?

by Horse feathers Tue Aug 16, 2005 19:41

I'm not calling the Rossport 5 Nimbys. It's just that there seems to be a general attitude that that's what they are. Personally, I think Shell are just on the make and Ireland/the Irish seem to tiny an obstacle to put them off. Of course, they're only encouraged by the kind of judicary we have.

by eeeekkkk Tue Aug 16, 2005 19:57

which is not a useful way of understanding the situation

indeed that is the point - to muddy the waters

there is a big difference between something that might smell/pollute/visually pollute and something that might blow up and kill people

by Robin Wed Aug 17, 2005 09:43

"what is incredible about 27.1mm thick, even if it was that thick"??

Of course it's that thick, ye spend enough time outside the gates of Rossport that ye shud be sick of looking at the 27.1mm thick pipe. Plus if you had any slight amount of engineering knowledge you would know that, in terms of pipe design and engineering, there is a lot "incredible" about a 27.1mm thick wall.

You all talk about the risk and the what ifs. Well what about the risks of everyday life that those of us encounter every day but are accepted in thename of progress and advancement. There is statistacally more chance of a plane crashing on descent to any airport in Ireland and killing landowners in the vicinity as there is of a pipe exploding in Rossport. There is more chance of a car driving past a house and crashing into an ESB pole, knocking it down onto a house and killing all inside. The people living in a field in Rossport will have a greater chance of dying of pneumonia when the winter comes that of a pipe explosion! Cars crash, trains crash, planes crash....theses are the unfortunate facts in life but where would we be without them. The positive benifits to the economy and society as a whole far outweigh and counter act any possible risk.

Now I am not saying that the deal brokered with shell by Mr.Burke is correct but you people are all around long enough to know that a FF govt. is not going to undo any deals done by predecessors and colleagues. It's an unfortunate situation and one that should never have been made but thats politics.

And as for the new "experts" on pipelines that the new residents in the area seem to have become.....an few nights sitting in front of an internet page or book reading does not make you an expert. I presume that all the engineers designing this pipeline are University qualified to degree and probably masters stage and are not going to build or design a pipeline that has any slight possibility of rupturing. This is too serious an issue to have "cowboys" designing it so please give credit where its due and allow these people get to work.

by P1 Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:40

Se beelow re gas pipe explosion in Belgium .. read down to see who the owners were or go to this link for the full story: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/sep2004/belg-s03.shtml

Belgian gas explosion: questions remain unanswered
By Paul Bond
3 September 2004

The death toll continues to rise after an explosion on a gas pipeline in the small Belgian town of Ghislenghien a month ago. Twenty-one people have now died. Over 50 remain in hospital, with the condition of over half being described as critical.

The explosion occurred at about 9.00 a.m. on July 30 in the industrial town just outside Ath, 40 kilometres south of Brussels. It sent a wall of flame into the air, triggering a chain of explosions. A leak was reported on the pipeline, which runs from the Belgian port of Zeebrugge into northern France, 37 minutes before the explosion. Firefighters attempting to establish a security perimeter around the site were among those killed when the explosions destroyed two factories in the industrial park.

The pipeline is run by Fluxys, which runs the country’s whole network of pipelines. Fluxys is jointly owned by Royal Dutch/Shell, the French utility concern Suez Group and a group of municipalities. Fluxys confirmed very early on that the explosion was caused by a gas leak.

by Barry Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:51

Robins point about Ray Burkes activities - " its an unfortunate situation and one that never should have been made , but thats politics"

Bollocks - thats theft . Its quite likely a criminal act occured .Irish people have every right to protest about their safety being endangered as well as being pissed off about their natural resources being stolen . Thats Irish people for you Robin , and thats part of politics too so get used to it . This issue wont go away .

by Darragh Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:30 darragh25 at hotmail dot com

I'm just wondering why there has never been talk of an appeal of the detention of the rossport five to the supreme court, based on them being held in contempt of court is in breach of their rights under the constitution???

by Justin Morahan - Peace People Wed Aug 17, 2005 13:55

"No, my sisters. These farms will be the death of us. They yield us nothing. Not until we can get more education. So send the kids to school. Send the girls to school. But who will baby-sit for us? Who will help us fetch water? Despair. An old woman had hobbled up to him. My son, they arrived this morning and dug up my entire farm, my only farm. They mowed down the toil of my brows, the pride of the waiting months. They say they will pay me compensation. Can they compensate me for my labours? The joy I receive when I see the vegetables sprouting, God's revelation to me in my old age? Oh my son, what can I do?

What answer now could he give her? I'll look into it later, he had replied tamely.
Look into it later. He could almost hate himself for telling that lie. He cursed the earth for spouting oil, black gold, they called it. And he cursed the gods for not drying the oil wells. What did it matter that millions of barrels of oil were mined and exported daily, so long as this poor woman wept those tears of despair? What could he look into later? Could he make alternate land available? And would the lawmakers revise the laws just to bring a bit more happiness to these unhappy wretches whom the search for oil had reduced to an animal existence? They ought to send the oil royalties to the men whose farms and land were despoiled and ruined. But the lawyers were in the pay of the oil companies and the government people in the pay of the lawyers and the companies. So how could he look into it later?" - Ken Saro Wiwa "A Forest of Flowers"

Ken Saro Wiwa was one of nine hanged in Nigeria for protesting Shell's land grab for profit in Ogoni. Shell said they were sorry about this. As they "regretted" the Rossport 5 going to jail, they told the judge.

"Shell have the global history". So true.

by Edward Horgan - Peace and Neutrality Alliance Wed Aug 17, 2005 13:59

I wish to express my solidarity with the brave people in Mayo, especially the Rosport Five, unjustly imprisoned . The national interest was also cited by many government sources for allowing US military use of Shannon airport. This abuse of Irish territory has already assisted with the unlawful killing of over 100,000 Iraqi people.
Shell's record of human rights abuses include the execution of Ken Sara Wiwa in the Ogoni region of Nigeria, because he opposed Shell's exploitation of the oil in Nigeria's Delta region.
The Irish Constitution guarantees the right to private property.
Private Property

Article 43

1. 1° The State acknowledges that man, in virtue of his rational being, has the natural right, antecedent to positive law, to the private ownership of external goods.

2° The State accordingly guarantees to pass no law attempting to abolish the right of private ownership or the general right to transfer, bequeath, and inherit property.

2. 1° The State recognises, however, that the exercise of the rights mentioned in the foregoing provisions of this Article ought, in civil society, to be regulated by the principles of social justice.

2° The State, accordingly, may as occasion requires delimit by law the exercise of the said rights with a view to reconciling their exercise with the exigencies of the common good.
Section 2.1° of Article 43 above, only allows the state in intervene in such "civil society" matters in accordance with "the principles of social justice". Surely the state is open to a Constitutional challenge for its abuse of this section of the constitution in the case of Corrib Gas issue.
In solidarity and peace
Edward Horgan

by Appeal to injunction Wed Aug 17, 2005 14:04

The judge has stated that he will not hear any appeal of the injunction by those who are in breach of it. Secondly to take something to the Supreme Court costs megabucks - that is my simple understanding of it.

Robin - no-one doubts the high qualifications and skills of engineers designing these pipes. However, the QRAs/safety reviews to date have all focused on the safety of the pipe itself, and the terms of reference have not taken full account of what the consequences would be to the people living near the pipe were an accident to happen, and accidents do happen. Why take that risk? Production pipelines like this in any civilised country do not pass by people's houses - full stop. There are simple formulae which can account for the radius of the flames emitted were a rupture to happen in this pipeline and what the effects would be at various distances from the pipeline. Shell are using British standard/code BS8010 in regard to population density, yet that code for the pressure of this pipeline would specify a miminum safety distance of 170m - not 70m which is what Shell are using.

You speak of experts, but the health inspectors and dept, who are also experts, failed to detect the horrific conditions in the retirement home in Leas Cross. NIMBY in this case should be rephrased NIABY - not in anyone's back yard - the government and SEPIL are taking unnecessary risks with people's lives for the sake of profit.

by Justin Morahan - Peace People Wed Aug 17, 2005 14:16

Robin, you say: "And as for the new "experts" on pipelines that the new residents in the area seem to have become.....an few nights sitting in front of an internet page or book reading does not make you an expert. I presume that all the engineers designing this pipeline are University qualified to degree and probably masters stage and are not going to build or design a pipeline that has any slight possibility of rupturing".

Your presumptions about the expertise of these wonderful engineers and your simple faith in those who pay them and pull their strings don't make you sound like an expert, Robin. Your faith and presumptions make you sound more like someone with a finger in the Shell pie.

by Robin Wed Aug 17, 2005 19:07

Justin, you say my "simple faith in the engineers" make me out to be no expert and makes me sound like some one with their finger in the Shell pie?

For a start, I'll thank you not to presume my faith is "simple". I'm degree qualified in engineering....my faith in these engineers designing and building the pipeline stems from a person with an understanding and knowledge of the design and working of pipelines. And no, I do not have a finger in the Shell pie, as you put it. I am merely an observer watching this saga unfold on this site and I felt it is about time that peorple stop scaring the residents of Rossport with stories of a 40 year old pipe in Mexico exploding, one which was not designed to a fraction of the standards of which this one is.

by paul o toole Thu Aug 18, 2005 01:16

These five men from Mayo still behind bars to night, is evidence enough in itself of the bottomless abyss of criminality at the core of this, the most corrupt country in the EU. The land of saints and scholars-what a myth.
The MacBreartys are still being dragged through the courts ten years on when they have been cleared of all charges having been framed, including the murder of Richard Barron, levelled at them by the police and the A.G of the day Michael Mc Doughall.

The courts have always been used as a tool of oppression by the state the political elite and the rich against those who even dare to challenge their way of doing their business of acquiring wealth and power or gas fields. When the courts ride roughshod over our constitution we should not be surprised because they are not interested in our protection. They do not serve the greater good of the people, only each others needs.

These five men stand before the Irish people having been jailed for trying to protect their families as is their right to do, if not their duty as parents. They are also standing up against state corruption and possibly the greatest rip-off of the Irish people by criminal elements within the F.F party and Shell.
This campaign will grow and grow and justice will be won, not in a courtroom by a government appointed judge, but on the streets.

by P1 Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:36

Robin, don't be so disingenuous. It's not only 40 year old pipe lines in Mexico that explode. Modern ones in Belgium also (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/sep2004/belg-s03.shtml). Shell were involved in that one too.

by Robin Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:36

I notice thats the second time the Belgian pipeline explosion has been published or mentioned.

But have you published all the article? No.

Yes, the article tells the story about a pipe exploding and so many people being killed. Fact.

But did you finish the story? What about the fact that a building site was ongoing right beside the pipe and that heavy machinery did not stay away from the designated exclusion zone?

Or that a roadway was being built on the other side of the pipe and that rubble from this was thrown into the trench on top of the pipe unbeknowns to anyone.

Or that the pipe was not placed the required distance underground due to local concerns over their land

Or that it was 3,704 km long.

Or that no government inspectors checked the pipeline?

Now compare this to the Corrib pipeline.
No building activity will ever be taking place anywhere near the pipe. The pipe is 9km long, not 3700km. The pipe will be buried in depths from 1.2 - 3m over the route. It will be inspected by fully qualified govenrment and Shell engineers. Nobody will be carrying out any work at a depth of 1.2m in the fields in Rossport other than the owners of the fields themselves who are more than aware where the pipe is.

So you cannot compare the two pipes. I'm not trying to be pro Shell or anti Rossport, I just think that this campaign, while a noble and idealogical effort, is needless and has gathered momentum through misinformation and misrepresentation of the facts.;

by P1 Thu Aug 18, 2005 14:00

Robin,

1. Gas pipes explode and kill peopple.
2. This country is no better or no worse than Belgium in enforcing rules and regulations on industry especially when it comes to environmental issues.
3. Shell have an appaling record for ignoring/abusing environmental and human rights issues especially in Nigeria

What on earth makes you think that the construction of a gas pipeline by a company, including Shell in the ownership, working in a country like Ireland should be trusted ?

by Interested Thu Aug 18, 2005 14:55

There are a few points you made which need to be refuted:

"No building activity will ever be taking place anywhere near the pipe"
-how do you know? In fact there will be an umbilical pipe right beside it which will reach pressures of up to 600 Bar itself on occasion to carry the byproducts of the refining process out to sea again. There will also be electric cables running alongside the pipeline. Furthermore, it is quite likely that their insistence on refining the gas onshore is in preparation for future finds (which as we know are likely as licences were just handed over by the government to corporations again this week) so that all they will need to do is install more pipes and feed them into their refinery in Bellanaboy. Is your statement based on the assumption that no-one will ever be able to get planning permission in the future to build sheds or houses near this pipeline route because of its very danger?

"The pipe is 9km long, not 3700km"
-how is this relevant? The pipe is the same pipe in essence that extends out to the wellhead (that makes @80km) but I still don't see the relevance of the length of the pipe - except, ironically, that when you play with statistics, if you have a longer pipe, it statistically reduces the risk. Therefore the 9km pipeline argument suggests that the danger is increased in Rossport. Either way, I don't see the point in your quoting the length of the pipeline.

"The pipe will be buried in depths from 1.2 - 3m over the route."
-This isn't deep enough. Please compare with other projects:
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=71524
http://www.otway.woodside.com.au/
http://www.ormenlange.com
http://www.statoil.com/snohvit

"It will be inspected by fully qualified govenrment and Shell engineers."
So what - I'm sure the Belgian pipeline was inspected by qualified government and Shell engineers but they are not prophets. A rupture occurs and is then detected, and then the well is capped/valves shut etc. By then it is too late.

There has not been misinformation on the part of the Mayo campaign. What there has been is a campaign of dirty tricks and misinformation (Andy Pyle quoted the 3 projects linked to above on Primetime as parallel projects - THAT is misinformation on his part) on the part of SEPIL and its government partners. Why take this risk? The extra costs that SEPIL would incur in refining the gas offshore can be written off anyway as these constitute "exploration" and "development" costs.

by Justin Morahan - Peace People Fri Aug 19, 2005 04:01

Noel, as an engineer you must have heard of that other great engineer, Sir Thomas Bouch, who designed what was the longest bridge in the world at the time over the River Tay - a magnificent engineering feat. You must have heard too of the collapse of the bridge on 28 December, 1879 less than two years after it was opened when a train passing over it in high winds hurled all 75 passengers to their deaths.
You must have heard how this great engineer, according to the official enquiry into the disaster, had broken all the rules for building pipe bridges "apparently to save time and money". Apparently "just about anything that could be wrong with a bridge was wrong" with this great man's design and the bridge that he built.
The foundations were too small, "the material rife with weaknesses of manufacture and design".
The last phrase was a euphemism. You will have heard of the concoction nicknamed "Beaumont's egg" containing a mix of cement, iron filings and graphite with which cracks in the structure had been patched. And of the re-use of girder sections that had been dropped on the sea bed during construction.
And you still trust Shell's engineers not to break the rules in order to save time and money?
You may say that this happened a long time ago and engineering skills have changed. The problem is that people who love profit haven't changed at all. They will still cut corners at the expense of people's lives.

by Mark Fri Aug 19, 2005 09:06

In today's Irish Times

The current controversy about the Corrib gas pipeline has prompted some correspondents and columnists to comment on the licensing terms for our offshore territory.

As one who has been on the periphery of the offshore scene for the past 25 years and has witnessed many false dawns I thought it would be helpful to outline some relevant facts.

Firstly, whilst we have had many offshore prospects, they become resources only when they are discovered.

Secondly, in the past 25 years approximately 125 exploration wells have been drilled off Ireland with just three discoveries - Kinsale, Corrib and the marginal Seven Heads field. The cost of these wells is estimated at €2 billion in present-day terms and graphically illustrates the risks involved, which are only too familiar to our indigenous exploration companies.

Thirdly, this success ratio of one to 42 - or one to 62 if you exclude the Seven Heads find - compares with an international average of one to 10, a North Sea average of one to six and a Norwegian sector risk of one to three.

Licensing terms here and elsewhere reflect the reality of this ratio and we are constantly competing in an international marketplace to attract the investment of the substantial exploration funds required.

Interestingly, the Norwegian government has recently announced a relaxation of its licensing terms to attract additional drilling, thereby making its sector more attractive than the UK's.

When our offshore territory becomes a proven productive area (if ever) future licensing terms can reflect that in all our interests. - Yours, etc,

BILL LYNCH, Newtownpark Avenue, Blackrock, Co Dublin.

by Justin Morahan - Peace People Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:01

The "Noel" comment above was meant for you. Sorry, Noel.

by Robin Fri Aug 19, 2005 14:04

While I understand the point you are trying to make, I don't accept it. There is no comparison between a bridge in Scotland 130 years ago and a gas pipeline. Its impossible to draw any comparisons other than the one you concluded with, which is weak at best. Yes, Shell are out to make a profit but you can't for one second say that they are cutting corners in the design or construction of the pipe to do so.

Now assume the next point you are going to make is that they are only refining it on land to save money. My understanding of the situation is that the Corrib find is one of the deepest finds yet......according to another engineer I spoke to about this, a rig or platform sitting on top of this find would not be stable, therefore placing the workers at a very tangiable, every day risk, not to mention the risk of getting to and from the structure.

Rigs and platforms are no longer being built by these oil companies, future finds worldwide are likely to be refined onshore. Its the way forward.

by Mayo Fri Aug 19, 2005 15:27

Robin, you may say that one cannot compare 130 year old bridges with the proposed Corrib onshore pipeline - human error is the same no matter what the context. Accidents happen - fact. You speak of the way forward and of the future - it is only the future if it is allowed to be a precedent.

Why is it okay to try to reduce the risk of those workers on the gas rig, who are there of their own volition, being paid humongous amounts of money for it (unless Shell now prefer to use workers from Eastern European countries and elsewhere who will work for less money than their Irish/English counterparts - another note, all servicing of the Corrib gas rigs to be done from Ayr in Scotland and no obligation on Shell E&P Ireland Ltd. to employ Irish workers) and to transfer that high risk onto people on shore, who live in the area because they are from the area, who have not chosen to live beside a pipeline? Shell has chosen to put the pipeline beside them - they have had no say or choice. Why is the safety of rig workers (who could be from anywhere) more important to the government than the safety of its own citizens, that it has a duty to protect?

Yes, the gas is at great depths. Surely, with all their talk of modern technology, they have the capability to build a terminal offshore, not necessarily on top of the rig, but another one elsewhere - or on an island, where the pressure will be reduced before the gas is brought onshore in Rossport? Is this not possible? If they can reduce the pressure in Bellanaboy why do they not have the skill and capability and know-how to do it offshore? Of course they have, because they do it elsewhere. If Coillte had not sold the land in Bellanaboy to SEPIL (or Entreprise Energy Ireland as it was at the time), the onshore option simply would not exist, and they would obviously be processing/refining their gas elsewhere. That is very important to remember. Also interesting is that the title of the land in question was not transferred to Coillte's name until 1999, after the gas discovery was made.

You take a very narrow view of this situation.

by outsider Fri Aug 19, 2005 18:09

should happen next in your opinion mayo?

Bearing in mind the cost to the state in compensation should Mayo co co revoke the planning permission it granted to Shell for the current terminal site?

I guess my real question is, has everybody not already missed the boat on this one?

by Private investigator Fri Aug 19, 2005 18:18

Its a fact, I know it for sure Robin is shell. Come on Robin you are project related, tell everybody the truth!!!!

by Mayo Fri Aug 19, 2005 18:54

You take a very cynical (and perhaps rightly so) attitude towards this issue. It is not too late at all. It is imperative that these people's lives and livelihoods not be put at risk - their land will be divided in two, they will have to cross the land under which the pipeline will lie at a depth of just 1.2m to get to the other side of their fields, they will have to cross the pipeline to get to the seashore, 2 households will have to cross the pipeline to get out the gates to their houses, the gate to another house is 25m from the pipeline - they will be not be outside the so-called safety distance from the pipe proposed by Shell at all as they conduct their daily business. And all you worry about is compensation? Your proposal is to sacrifice ordinary people at the altar of a multinational??? As an Irishperson (as a person at all), you should have a bit more pride.

by Sean O Riain Sun Aug 21, 2005 20:48

Could you give again the details of how to contribute to the "ShelltoSea" fund - I think you should give these details regularly. Gach dea-ghuí

by Ger Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:38

weekend reports now showing that Rossport 5 costing taxpayer at over €1,000 per man per day? 52% of a national radio poll called for 5 to purge their contempt.

Interesting!

by Tony Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:56

Yes I think its time to come out and start talking......people are sick of it

by Badman Mon Aug 22, 2005 13:15

The responsibility for the costs of the imprisonment of the Rossport 5 certainly does not rest with the men - after all they have no desire to be locked up.

52% of an unnamed national radio poll is all very uninteresting. Such polls are famously unscientific because they allow points of view supported by big PR teams with large budgets to vote many many times.

by Ryan Mon Aug 22, 2005 13:30

I think the poll accuratly represents the view that I can sense on the ground nationwide. i accept this may not be the case in Mayo

by Mayo Mon Aug 22, 2005 14:16

I think our commenters have failed to grasp the fact that these men have been put in jail by Shell and the courts - they didn´t apply or volunteer to go in. It is up to the courts and those who have put them in jail to let them out.

And radio polls are irrelevant for the reasons stated above - results depend on who gets to the phone fastest, and the motivation of those people who vote

by Fred Mon Aug 22, 2005 14:27

i think the men are in jail because they broke an order of the High Court. They have shown 2 fingers to the judicial system. Their fate is therfore in their own hands.

by Billy Mon Aug 22, 2005 18:26

I think the men have demonstrtaed very clearly that they have no desire or intention of coming out og jail - suits them until now but wait and see as media sentiment and public opinion gets tired.

by George Mon Aug 22, 2005 18:31

I agree 100% with fred they must purge their contempt before this can be progressed any further, the current stalemate cannot be broken otherwise, its the courts that put them in jail and only the courts can release them, all those with the common aim of seeing this whole issue coming to some form of resolution must be in favour of the men coming out of jail

and by the way i think the poll being referred to was conducted on Today FM

by goinghome Mon Aug 22, 2005 18:35

Take a rest, Tony. It's half past five, time to stop spamming and go home.

by eeekkkkk Mon Aug 22, 2005 18:39

which featured sam smyth allowing conor 'kebab' lenihan and mary ellen synon and one other right winger whose name escapes me tell blatant untruths over and over again for about a half an hour about the situation.

One example was the repeated assertion that all safety reviews etc had concluded

this in spite of the fact that a review is again in progress because first two were conducted by shell owned/related companies.

Another example was the failure at any point to mention the fact that shell had been carrying out ILLEGAL works at time men were jailed and had denied any illegality in court sessions that led to jailing

Much mumbling about hippies/agendas/eco-warriors etc too was allowed to go unopposed.

I'd like to feed sammy boy some shite on a stick as he seems to have no problem doing same to nation.

Significant too that this is only and incredibly unscientific poll conducted on this issue.

It would be worth anyone whjo has the time catologuing the lies and mistruths in the item. It's available on the todayfm.com website if you register

by Aidan Mon Aug 22, 2005 19:22

eeeekkkkk - I thought it was a well balanced presentataion of the situation. You just dont like it when the protesters flawed message is not swallowed hook, line and sinker!! Point is that most reasonable people are beginning to see through the campaign. I'll give it a few more weeks max!

by eeekkkkkk Mon Aug 22, 2005 19:34

represents protesters point of view coherently and untruths that suit shell and FFers down to the ground are repeated ad nauseum without challenge?

It was pure propaganda and panel was set up for it to be so. Still only 51% of those willing to do poll in favour.

To me what it shows is the campaign is very popular and has disseminated it's message well.

by George Tue Aug 23, 2005 15:45

is all we have being hearing about since the Rossport 5 went to jail, last sunday in the indo was the first article i have seen which covered the other (not so pleasant stuff) thats going on up there,

by Hal Tue Aug 23, 2005 18:15

I agree with you George. Truth is that the men have made a mistake by staying in jail so long. They had a window about three weeks ago when the whole country was sympathetic but as every day goes by people get on with their lives again, get back to work and kids to school and sad as it may sound - just wont give a toss about the Rossport 5. They also start to think twice about the motivation here and the intimidation that is going on.

So lets wonder why they didnt maximise their hand? They are either not as clever as we thought or not advised as well as we thought or someone else is pulling the strings with a far wider agenda than health and safety. in fairness to Shell, they always said from the beginning that this seemed to be part of a wider agenda and that has been proved to be correct.

Net point is they had a chance to pull off a major coup - but they have fucked it up!

by yt Tue Aug 23, 2005 18:17

Give it a rest, Tony.

by Boycotter Tue Aug 23, 2005 18:22

"I agree with you George. Truth is that the men have made a mistake by staying in jail so long."

On your way troll. The men don't have a choice on their length of time in jail. As you well know the courts are in recess until October. Our hard pressed judiciary need their two months sojourn so badly. On the ground people still support them. In fact I predict when the Legal Eagle Fat Cats return from their two months yachting, safariing, hunting or whatever it is they do and the media come back to the story I'm sure more people will support them. They'll wonder why such principled people are in jail while guilty fat cat cheating bastards roam the land.

by Hal Tue Aug 23, 2005 18:28

Sorry Boycotter - I am no troll. Why is it that you think I am? At first glance, I started out firmly in the camp of the 5 but I have moved along with many others. nevertheless my posting was not about whether I supported them or not - it was to highluight the fact that they missed the boat.

face it - they had a chance to make an impact. Purging contempt is only words - they missed the boat, missed the moment, fucked it up! History will show it to be so.

by Boycotter Tue Aug 23, 2005 18:31

If you are not a troll. Explain to me why they missed the boat in your humble opinion? Why should they have purged?

by Curious Tue Aug 23, 2005 18:32

If you thought they were right at the start, what has changed your mind.

by Hal Tue Aug 23, 2005 18:40

Curious - I never said they were right - I said that at a glance they had my sympathy.

Boycotter. fact is that this gas project will be built. I think most people believe that. Now if you accept that, the real opportunity for the 5 was to apply maximum pressure to have the project modified in some way to deal with their concerns. this point of maximum pressure 9excuse the pun) has passed in my opinion, and the 5 have a problem as normal ordinary Irish people loose interest and the media does too. Once Shell suspended work they should have purged contempt, assumed high moral ground, brought in a negotiator and would have maximised the opportunity to get what they wanted. that time has passed, people are moving off and they have fucked it up! i am no troll - i just have an opinion - just like I am sure you have yours!

by Cormac Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:13

i agree - time to come out and end this nonsense

by DT Fri Aug 26, 2005 17:46

WHAT CAN I DO TO HELP?

by M.R. Ryan Fri Sep 02, 2005 21:48

Robin. If Shell were responsible for this pipeline in Belgium, then they were also ultimately responsible for each of the appaling safety failures that you so well described. If I had any faith left in Shell before your posting, you have now persuaded me otherwise.

by Darragh Fri Sep 02, 2005 21:59 darragh25 at hotmail dot com

Thank Christ at least one other person is picking up on this most important point about the constitutional provisions relating to private property and the common good!!! Fair play to you Ed, spread the word!

See comments on http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=71670&condense_comments=false#comment119473
I've no doubt this is how the men will end up getting released from Cloverhill...