Israeli rightist writer and war crimes advocate to visit Dublin

by raymond deane - ipsc Tue Jun 06, 2006 00:21

Some interesting contributions all round, too many for individual comment, so I'll confine myself to two.

"Idea girl" - as you've probably seen subsequently, we're having our cake and eating it: a protest outside, and an alternative event an hour later in the Teachers' Club. I'm looking forward myself to encountering Yitzhak Laor, an Israeli who has really suffered for his defence of Palestinian human rights.

Linos's points: he accuses the IPSC of "a cynical misrepresentation of his [Yehoshuah's] position"... especially shameful when you patently haven't read his work.". However, it isn't Yehoshuah's novels that are at issue here, but his public statement in an Ari Shavits interview. This we haven't "misrepresented" - we've quoted it verbatim.

"Ask yourselves this question - if Hamas sent a writer to Dublin would you mount a protest, and if not why not?" In the first place, Hamas couldn't do this as such a person would most likely not be let in. If such a person called for war crimes to be committed, then we would most certainly dissociate ourselves from his/her position. It would be up to the "Friends of Israel" to organise a protest, if they had the capacity. In the second place, the question is so hypothetical as to be absurd and to put the bona fides of the questioner into question...

Is this an issue of "free speech"? Is the advocacy of war crimes acceptable under this banner? I'm not so sure. However, the issue here is NOT merely Yehoshuah's obnoxious and racist views: it's the fact that this event is sponsored by the Israeli government, on the 39th anniversary of the 2nd day of Israel's 1967 war of occupation. When Amir Or comes to Dublin to read at the Project on 15th June, the issue will again be this: the Dublin Writers' Festival should NOT boast the logo of the Israeli rogue government as one of its sponsors. Watch this space!

by John Hartfield - Dada Tue May 30, 2006 13:47

The Arts Council and its policy is not imaginative. But to speak of it in the same breath as the Third Reich and book burning just undermines any point you are trying to make. By introducing such hyperbole you lose the argument.

by chris murray - The Unmanageables Tue May 30, 2006 13:14

Back to the point.
The Arts Council was subject in the last two years under Minister John o Donoghue to a complete overhaul which
both reduced the board members and made provision that bursaries were to be awarded on the basis of whether they reflected the state's ideal of Irish expression. if you research the issue you will find that this accompanies the application forms for submissions. This policy is straight out of the De Valera era and has not been used since the begining of the Irish State.Art has always been a political act, now more so than ever before. The idea that a negative expression of protest ,rather than a constructive ability to highlight repressive policy is wrong or may reflect badly on independent art groups is paying the fiddler.
Fear governing an attempt to highlight the vagaries of grants-funding is belittling to artists who now have to engage more than ever with politics.
The Third Reich destroyed the work of the greatest expressionists, imagists and symbolists because the idea of expression was anathema to them. Chagall was outlawed. Book-burning and repression of generational voice is one of the tools of Nazism and repression. as is the destruction of collective memory through land-grabbing and heritage destruction. If only art that pleased the motivation of a state engaged complicitly in an illegal war were shown, aided and supported, we would truly be living in the most frightening age. of course it is right to defend free-expression but it is wholly correct to point out the inequities in the system too. These include the fact that a government aided writer's centre is hosting such a hostile writer in an era of great suffering for the Palestinian people.

by rob Tue May 30, 2006 11:41

Pat, You are right, the palestinans have not displaced millions of israelis but thats not to say they dont want to.

By the same token Israel has not displaced millions of palestinians, the most that left what is now Isreal when it was founded is 800,000 which is roughly the same figure of jews that left or were forced to leave the arab world in general.

Ok so Isreal has tanks, and cracking airforce etc, this in itself does not confer moral authority on the palestinians.

by eastern eye Tue May 30, 2006 02:30

Here is a link to the Hebrew Article:
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArtPE.jhtml?ite...sID=0

The English article doesn't appear to be on Ha'aretz site anymore, but it appears in several sites.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22A+nation+that+k...ds%22

In my oppinion, Laor is bluffing, counting on the fact that not many people read Hebrew. yet, it doesn't surprise me.

by iosaf Tue May 30, 2006 02:04

The National Association of Teachers in Further and Higher Education (Natfhe) closed their conference in Blackpool, England yesterday. These are people with equivalent of "H. dip. Ed." qualifications or even higher & most of them are politically minded which is why they do confernces. During their meeting they decided to be moral as well, which is an often underestimated motivation to many to be political. By a narror majority they've voted to boycott Israeli lecturers and academic institutions if they do not publically disassociate themselves from Apartheid policies
However, in three days time the union "Nafthe" will merge with the union "AUT" (association of university teachers) and create a new union ( I don't know what it will be called) and the passed motion of yesterday will then only be "an advisory" to perhaps be voted on again at a future congress representing a new 100,000 strong membership (which might probably meet in Blackpool)[obviuosly they all the members won't go to the conference].
The union "AUT" itself voted in 2005 to boycott lecturers and academic institutions if they did not publically diassociate themselves from Apartheid policies but public opinion & the customer based nature of the global market on lecturing caused that resolution to be over-ruled at a further conference of the AUT. (which won't exist either in 3 days). I feel so foolish because I can't tell you how much the global lecturing market & its subsidiary sectors are worth. But I wouldn't be underestimating if I guestimated its big money . Its also quite by far one of the most relaxing ways of seeing other places for free, getting attention, & feeling influential.

Just one thing more :-

Would one of the two previous commentators who surprised me with an exchange based around the translation quality of a Haaretz article (hebrew/english) or some other commentator indeed, (another delegate for the resolution ) provide both original links that is if they're still online (the commentators) [anything as interesting as a double sourced piece of controversy like those links will still be about).

by Dave Tue May 30, 2006 00:27

"What you do by picketing Yehosua, is showing Israelis "Your oppinions doesn't matter, your actions doesn't matter - you are illegitimate because you are Israelis". Israelis will tell themselves, "they are all bunch of anti Semetists". And you know what? they will be right."

Well done "eastern eye", when all else fails you fall back on the old reliable tactic that defenders of Israeli policy always use -you accuse opponents of Israeli policies of anti-semitism. Well done.

by Seán Ryan Tue May 30, 2006 00:06

Hi David.

I like the idea of the PA system and the two poets. But I'd like to suggest a method to shake this tree a lot harder.

Why not quote an Irish 'poet.' I know of one who worked with quite a famous quartet.

Why not get a camera and a microphone and tape and stick it in Brian Cowen's face?

Tell him what's happening and ask his views. Come back here and publish. More importantly send the transcripts and dvd's and what have you, everywhere, but especially to the arts council and indeed to the venue where all this will take place. (the trick is to get the big fellas fighting with each other, rather than just us small folks taking on the big folks).

Brian is famous for condemning Israeli 'extrajudicial killings.'

Brian's got one of the most powerful jobs in Government. If he doesn't help he can be shown to be a hypocrite, and this can be used to show how subservient we've become as a nation. If he fights your corner you'll win automatically. Tis a win WIN scenario.

Course you're not stuck with what I've just said. Improvisation and imagination are the keys to success. For example, Brian's not the only one in Government who's made speeches and statements that concur with your position on this issue. Even Bertie.

I'm afraid I've other committments so I won't be able to attend. But I hope you kick arse. You don't need luck.

by eastern eye Mon May 29, 2006 21:53

Laor can say lots of things - the link I gave (which is not to Ha'aretz website but has the article translated to English there) has the whole article. I checked and compared it to Hebrew. It seems they didn't translate it themselves - someone did copy-paste from Ha'aretz site. Had you bothered to read the link I gave - the quotes Laor put are there as well (but not exactly, ofcourse. Laor is a little tendentious). Something tells me the whole text was in Ha'aretz's English version from the first place - Laor does have some interest in the subject.
About how leftist Yehoshua is - one should ask - what IS left, and who determines 'who is a leftist'?
You know what? One could declare himself a leftist and not support the Refuseniks. Supporting the right of return into Israel area (I assume we don't speak here about right of return into the Palestinian state) is equal to Israel's suicide - most of Israelis opposes to it. Even Leftists. Except, lets say, 5 people.

By the way, you don't have to DO anything to consider yourself leftist.

by David L - ipsc Mon May 29, 2006 20:53

I was thinking this discussion was getting strange - 30 comments and nobody accusing anybody else of being an antisemite . It was like seeing gravity being suspended, it was beautiful while it lasted, but now Eastern Eye has come and restored the dreary mantra of Zionists...you hate Israel... you hate jews... you blah blah blah.

About one thing he is right - Yehoshua does have the reputation of being a leftist. Admittedly in a country where about half the population support ethnic cleansing and a good proportion support the introduction of apartheid-style segregation, being a leftist isn't that difficult - I imagine even Kevin Myers would qualify. That this reputation is undeserved can be seen by asking what leftist thing has Yehoshua done - he hasn't even supported the Israeli refuseniks, which is something that even a Zionist should be able to do.

He supported the redeployment from gaza? So what. Most Israelis supported this, and I'm afraid for the same reason Yehoshua did, that they would be able to wage war more efficiently. Elsewhere he has supported the annexation of parts of the west bank - http://middleeastinfo.org/article3589.html and rejected the right of return - http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Area=israel&ID=SP8300. All for peace of course. It's important when you're a Israeli 'leftist' to repeat that you're in favour of peace, not against it.

Another small correction - the English translation of the interview that Yehoshua gave in Hebrew isn't the full translation - the most reprehensible bits were left out. In Laor's article I quoted above, they are put back in. Somehow, though, I doubt that'll get you to change your opinion.

David

by pat c Mon May 29, 2006 19:53

"What you do by picketing Yehosua, is showing Israelis "Your oppinions doesn't matter, your actions doesn't matter - you are illegitimate because you are Israelis". Israelis will tell themselves, "they are all bunch of anti Semetists". And you know what? they will be right. "

No, they wont be right. David is not an anti Semite, I'm not, Deirdres not. What is happening here is a protest against a writer who says that the Israeli Defence Forces should carry out War Crimes.

by eastern eye Mon May 29, 2006 19:50

A B Yehosua is a leftist.
He is known to be a leftist and talks his views as a leftist on this whole interview from 19.3.04. interview none of you has bothered to read, except for 2 sentences taken out of their context.
What Yehoshua actually said was:
Q: When the disengagement plan is formulated and brought to the cabinet for approval, will you support the left's joining Sharon in the establishment of a national unity government?

A: "Definitely, I think the left has to give this move concrete support. True, generous support. And I also think that the left has no chance of finishing this story on its own. It has no chance. Only Sharon's authority vis-a-vis the right can make it happen. Therefore, I will be in favor of a national unity government. Just as a national unity government was in office during the Six-Day War, a national unity government has to terminate it."

Q: Beyond the political argument, there are those who say that a unilateral withdrawal could trigger an eruption of violence, maybe even a full-scale war.

A: "I don't think so. They tried to scare us before the withdrawal from Lebanon, too. It's possible that there will be a war with the Palestinians. It's not necessary, it's not impossible. But if there is a war, it will be a very short one. Maybe a war of six days. Because after we remove the settlements and after we stop being an occupation army, all the rules of war will be different. We will exercise our full force. We will not have to run around looking for this terrorist or that instigator - we will make use of force against an entire population. We will use total force.
"Because from the minute we withdraw I don't want to know their names. I don't want any personal relations with them. I am no longer in a situation of occupation and policing and B'Tselem [the human rights organization]. Instead, I will be standing opposite them in a position of nation versus nation. State versus state. I am not going to perpetrate war crimes for their own sake, but I will use all my force against them. If there is shooting at Ashkelon, there is no electricity in Gaza."

The whole interview can be found here:
http://www89.homepage.villanova.edu/scott.black/S04sens...ew%20(March%202004).htm

What you do by picketing Yehosua, is showing Israelis "Your oppinions doesn't matter, your actions doesn't matter - you are illegitimate because you are Israelis". Israelis will tell themselves, "they are all bunch of anti Semetists". And you know what? they will be right.

by MichaelY - iawm Mon May 29, 2006 19:29

One way of producing perceptually acceptable images in reasonable times is to exploit the "flaws" in the human eye, for although the human eye is good, it isn't perfect! Change blindness is the inability of the human to detect what should be obvious changes in a scene. A human can miss large changes in their field of view when they occur simultaneously with brief visual disruptions, such as an eye saccade, flicker or a blink. This concept has long been used by stunt doubles in film. Blank fields, mudsplashes or masking blocks each time an image is changed, creating the visual disruption. This swamps the user's local motion signals caused by a change, short-circuiting the automatic system that normally draws attention to its location. Without automatic control, attention is controlled entirely by slower, higher-level mechanisms in the visual system which search the scene, object by object, until attention finally lands upon the object that is changing. Once attention has latched onto the appropriate object, the change is easy to see, however this only occurs after exhaustive serial inspection of the scene.
So Rob, do you understand what I am saying? To equate the strategy of the Zionist State of Israel, with its mighty repressive apparatus, its powerful Trans-Atlantic friends, and its influence on the worldwide media, to the response of beleaguered, landless, leaderless, poor and oppressed people.....you are exploiting the flaws of your 'eyes'. You are an orthodox sufferer of change blindness! If you slow down and look at the scene from another angle, as the message says "after exhaustive serial inspection of the scene" you may understand it in a somewhat more acceptable form.

by Deirdre Clancy Mon May 29, 2006 19:18

"Like should all rightwingers be blacklisted? who is going to decide on what constitutes a rightwinger? is there to be a party line on "good" art & literature? i'm not being facetious, these are important questions. because the arts & politics area is a dangerous tightrope."

Totally agree with everything you've said here - it is a dangerous tightrope, a can of worms, a Pandora's box (and any other commonly used metaphor that I haven't thought of)...and it is very dangerous to demand that artists express a particular political viewpoint in their art. I wasn't suggesting anything of the sort. It's a sure-fire recipe for bad art anyway.

And no, I'm not in favour of a party line on good art and literature, nor am I in favour of an unofficial Irish leftist version of the type of oppressive nonsense that went on in Stalinist Russia or Maoist China, where art had to reflect the objectives of the Party. However, I am in favour of open discussion of why Irish artists and intellectuals don't engage (as individuals, as opposed to within their art). There is not that tradition in Ireland, and it's interesting to me to explore why that is, and why it seems there's almost an opposite unspoken demand that artists (as people) should be apolitical. That's all.

Anyway, moving swiftly along. The IPSC protest. Well done on planning it, and let's all support it.

by David L Mon May 29, 2006 18:53

Thanks to all those who expressed support for an IPSC alternative event. I think, taking on board what ‘idea girl – Earth’ (Im guessing, it’s a pseudonym) was saying, it makes sense to hold a demonstration outside the Irish Writers Centre and create as much nuisance as (legally) possible for those who are willing to support the Israeli government. It seems like the perfect place to recite the poetry of those 2 Palestinian poets prevented from leaving their country, and if anybody has a p.a. system they would like to donate for the event, it will be gratefully recieved. If, more generally, you want to get involved in the event - do contact the IPSC -Phone: 01-677-0253:Email: supportpalestine@ireland.com Website: www.ipsc.ie

About the politics of the issue – there are two reasons to protest this fellow – not because of his writing – I’ve read worse – or even his political views, which sadly, are fairly mainstream among Israelis, but because he has advocated that the Israeli government commit war crimes. It seems a simple enough thing to understand. If Lino thinks I’ve misrepresented his position – which seems to me fairly black and white – then come out and tell me exactly how. Or if you want to read someone who knows – I’m happy to admit – a lot more than me about Yehoshua, there’s an article by Yitzhak Laor about him and other Israeli ‘leftists’ who in the words of Tacitus, ‘create a desert and call it peace’. It’s http://www.counterpunch.org/laor10202004.html

The other reason to protest seems equally obvious – he’s being bought here by the Israeli government, not his publisher or his close friends or his grandkids, but the Israeli government. In other words – I hope I’m not overstressing the point here – he is a representative of the Israeli government. Bleating censorship, when he is the representative of a government where censorship is the least of their crimes, is a bit… well… cynical.

Aside from that, I think it is a good idea to raise the wider issues of writers and public responsibility – if only to get some of them along at the events we’re planning for June 6th

by pat c Mon May 29, 2006 18:53

Palestinian tactics? palestinians are not an occupying power nor have they displaced millions of israelis. they do not have an airforce or tanks or helicopter gunships. please be serious.

if you are a regular indy reader then you should be aware that i think the iranian regime is illegitimate and i support the progressive forces who are fighting to overthrow the theocracy. i do not support the US destabalisation of iran.

whether or not this is a good time to be protesting outside the iranian embassy is another question. i would consult with iranian comrades on that.

by rob Mon May 29, 2006 18:47

I dont see anything about total ethnic cleansing there. He seems to be suggesting that Israel adopt Palestinan tactics. Why protest? whats it to you? what business is it of yours where its held? Do you own the venue? if not its none of your business. Allow people to make their own minds up. Its not up to you.

Will you protest outside the iranian embassy? Now they DO call for ethnic cleansing

by pat c Mon May 29, 2006 18:36

" You could have picked up on many other aspects of my posting, but this was the one you decided to zone in on. "

I also mentioned the general issue of arts policy.

"I do stand by my contention that the link between art and politics in Ireland is very much related to the current story."

I agree but it is a subject that would require a wide ranging debate.
Like should all rightwingers be blacklisted? who is going to decide on what constitutes a rightwinger? is there to be a party line on "good" art & literature? i'm not being facetious, these are important questions. because the arts & politics area is a dangerous tightrope. anyone for banning TS Elliot, Ezra Pound or WB Yeats?

"It is nonsensical to say that comparisons shouldn't be made to other areas of art/politics and their interactions. Threads develop in all sorts of ways "
But when you are discussing a specific protest action it may not be wise to discuss everything political and artistic under the Sun.

"I just want to clarify that I wasn't comparing Stuart with this Israeli writer. I never stated that I was, and was merely using Stuart to illustrate a point about the arts in Ireland. Zionists have no stick to beat anyone with."

I didnt think you were. My comments in the previous post were directed at Sean and his comparison to Irving.

by Deirdre Clancy Mon May 29, 2006 18:25

Okay, I concede that I did express an opinion about the celebration of Stuart by other artists, but I didn't express an opinion on his work/politics as such. That is what I meant. And I did only mention him in passing, by way of example. You could have picked up on many other aspects of my posting, but this was the one you decided to zone in on.

I do stand by my contention that the link between art and politics in Ireland is very much related to the current story. It is nonsensical to say that comparisons shouldn't be made to other areas of art/politics and their interactions. Threads develop in all sorts of ways - this is one of the joys of Indymedia. And I did point out why I thought what I said was linked to the protest in question in the last paragraph of my last posting.

I just want to clarify that I wasn't comparing Stuart with this Israeli writer. I never stated that I was, and was merely using Stuart to illustrate a point about the arts in Ireland. Zionists have no stick to beat anyone with.

by pat c Mon May 29, 2006 18:13

I dont even want to stop the event going ahead. I just dont think it should take place in the IWC or any other Arts/Cultural centre. Let them hold it in a hotel, we'll still protest though.

Heres his comments:

"We will exercise our full force. We will not have to run around looking for this terrorist or that instigator--we will make use of force against an entire population. We will use total force. Because from the minute we withdraw I don't want to know their names. I don't want any personal relations with them. I am no longer in a situation of occupation and policing and B'Tselem [the human rights organization]. Instead, I will be standing opposite them in a position of nation versus nation. State versus state. I am not going to perpetrate war crimes for their own sake, but I will use all my force against them. If there is shooting at Ashkelon, there is no electricity in Gaza. We shall use force against an entire population. We shall use total force It will be a totally different war. It will be much harder on the Palestinians. If they shoot Qassam missiles at Ashkelon, we will cut electricity to Gaza. We shall cut communications in Gaza. We shall prevent fuel from Gaza. We shall use our full force as we did on the Egyptian (Suez) Canal in 1969. And then, when the Palestinian suffering will be totally different, much more serious, they will, by themselves, eliminate the terror.
(From "A nation that knows no bounds", Ha'aretz weekend magazine, an interview with A. B. Yehoshua, 18.3.2004)."

by pat c Mon May 29, 2006 18:07

"Pat, you're repeating yourself. We got your point about FS ages ago. Disagree with you, but let it go, will ya?"

Anon and Deirdre kept raising it and misrepresented me in the process. I was only responding.

"The IPSC gig should definitely be supported."

Definitely.

" What's the diff between this fella and David Irving? Hundreds mobilised against Irving. (Or am I off-topic in drawing that analogy, Pat?)"

I fear you may giving out hostages to fortune by comparing a Jewish writer to a Holocaust denier. Why give the Zionists a stick to beat you with?

by Sean Mon May 29, 2006 17:39

Pat, you're repeating yourself. We got your point about FS ages ago. Disagree with you, but let it go, will ya?

The IPSC gig should definitely be supported. What's the diff between this fella and David Irving? Hundreds mobilised against Irving. (Or am I off-topic in drawing that analogy, Pat?)

by pat c Mon May 29, 2006 17:23

"I only mentioned Francis Stuart in passing, by way of example. I didn't even express a particular opinion on him (though I do have one, and it doesn't involve the idea of censoring him, for the record), just pointed out that he'd been celebrated."

Deirdre you did express an opinion on both FS and Aosodanna. "In the meantime, you have the folk at Aosdana unashamedly celebrating Francis Stuart (again, with a few honourable dissenters), trying to pretend that his political sympathies are irrelevant to how one views his work" It was more than in passing. Thats why I responded.

" Pat C. then zoned in on that one element of my post and said many lefties would disagree with me - disagree with what? "
As I wrote this is not the place to have this discussion. But I would disagree with your criticism of Aosdanna. And actually I wrote : "There are those who would disagree with you on this who are on the left"

"Anyway, I didn't intend to start a discussion him in particular, but I did think the original posting raised strong questions about the established elements of the arts in Ireland (as opposed to grassroots arts), and that was my main point. "

IMHO that is a discussion for another thread.

" And yes, I do feel a little regretful at times about Ireland's arts community's silence on certain issues, and a little wistful too about the contrast with certain Continental countries. I think that's relevant too. However, I also know how people who speak out in this country can be subject to all sorts of career obstacles and peer censure, and that the issue is very complex, and that people can be vulnerable in the arts community too in many respects, financially, socially and politically."

Good topic for a story. But it would swamp this thread

"My main points in summary - I mentioned Stuart in passing."
Well a bit more than that. you attacked Aosdanna for celebrating him. I dont think that you are in any way a revisionist but Kevin Myers et al has carried out a poisonous attack on FS for years so any discussion of FS can be carried out in a facile manner.

by rob Mon May 29, 2006 17:23

where has he called for ethnic cleansing of the entire palestinian population? I might go along and listen for myself, if he does call for ethnic cleansing, then of course I will have nothing more to do with it. But I would rather hear and decide for myself. Nobody and I mean nobody has the right to make up my mind for me or to attempt a protest with the hope that the event is cancelled.

Let me make up my own mind. no protests, no disruptions, no phone campaigns. Why on earth do people take it upon themselves to decide what another person can read, listen to, wear, eat etc

by Deirdre Clancy Mon May 29, 2006 17:09

I only mentioned Francis Stuart in passing, by way of example. I didn't even express a particular opinion on him (though I do have one, and it doesn't involve the idea of censoring him, for the record), just pointed out that he'd been celebrated. Pat C. then zoned in on that one element of my post and said many lefties would disagree with me - disagree with what?

Anyway, I didn't intend to start a discussion him in particular, but I did think the original posting raised strong questions about the established elements of the arts in Ireland (as opposed to grassroots arts), and that was my main point.

I strongly urge people to support the IPSC and their protest. But I think the discussion has to go beyond this. And yes, I do feel a little regretful at times about Ireland's arts community's silence on certain issues, and a little wistful too about the contrast with certain Continental countries. I think that's relevant too. However, I also know how people who speak out in this country can be subject to all sorts of career obstacles and peer censure, and that the issue is very complex, and that people can be vulnerable in the arts community too in many respects, financially, socially and politically.

My main points in summary - I mentioned Stuart in passing. I didn't intend to start a discussion on him in particular but on the whole link between politics and art in Ireland, which I think was highly relevant to the original article. And this was partially because I do think that if established writers joined the IPSC protest, it would deeply strengthen its impact. In that sense, I wasn't trying to deflect from it, but rather to pose questions as to how this protest and others could be enhanced.

I'll gladly end this part of the discussion if you want, Pat C. I just wanted to clarify these points.

by pat c Mon May 29, 2006 16:58

I believe there is a difference. Neither Fisk nor Chomsky would call for the Jews to be driven into the sea. But Yehoshua calls for the ethnic cleansing of the entire palestinian population.

He is not being picketed because he is a Zionist or a Jewish writer. The protest is taking place because he is an advocate of ethnic cleansing.

by rob Mon May 29, 2006 16:52

If you dont like this guy or his politics (especially if any of you have actually read his work) then just dont go. Allow people who might be thinking of going, make up their own minds and come to their own conclusions, instead of trying to bully or complain about anybody who does not share your world view.

I cant stand chomsky or fisk but you dont find me protesting whenever they come to ireland to preach. Its a respect thing.

by pat c Mon May 29, 2006 16:40

"This is my last post on this issue coz you've brought this thread way off topic."

I didnt bring up FS or general discussion on where AC funding goes.

"Yes I do have a particular view on Stuart - like you - but he was only mentioned in passing which is why its surprising that you should try to derail discussion on politics and the arts just to avoid discussing him. Strange."

Now thats strange. I point out that imho this thread (which is about an IPSC protest) has nothing to do with FS and I am the one who is derailing the thread! As stated, I would be happy to discuss FS on another thread. You seem to have an obsession with FS, so I reckon any discussion would br lenghty and polemical. Obviously this thread is not the place for it.

"My basic point is this: Irish writers are assisting a rightwinger as if his politics are irrelevant. I don't hold with this coz I dont believe that writers and artists have any special exemptions. If they are rightwing then they are open to criticism imho. With regard to artists taking a political role I'm with Deirdre when she says that the often heard cop-out - "I'm an artist, I can't do politics" - is bogus. Art is not above politics - and the product of art can be soaked with political assumptions.""

And thats all for a general discussion on arts& politics.

"Would love to develop this at length but am busy right now. Maybe somebody else will take up this theme."

i hope they do so on new thread. you have already done your best to derail this one. I wonder what your real motivation is.

by anon Mon May 29, 2006 16:32

Pat C

This is my last post on this issue coz you've brought this thread way off topic.

Yes I do have a particular view on Stuart - like you - but he was only mentioned in passing which is why its surprising that you should try to derail discussion on politics and the arts just to avoid discussing him. Strange.

My basic point is this: Irish writers are assisting a rightwinger as if his politics are irrelevant. I don't hold with this coz I dont believe that writers and artists have any special exemptions. If they are rightwing then they are open to criticism imho. With regard to artists taking a political role I'm with Deirdre when she says that the often heard cop-out - "I'm an artist, I can't do politics" - is bogus. Art is not above politics - and the product of art can be soaked with political assumptions.

Would love to develop this at length but am busy right now. Maybe somebody else will take up this theme.

by pat c Mon May 29, 2006 16:10

"This thread is already about art and politics. What do you think is being discussed here???"

Its about a protest at an event hosted by the IWC. Its not about a general discussion on arts & politics.

"That said I can see now though that your problem is coz you have particular views on Francis stuart. Fine, but dont you think its a bit much to try to stifle debate here because it doesn't suit your view?"

No, no more than Deirdre should have her way by pushing her opinions on Francis Stuart on a thread that has nothing to do with him. You or Deirdre should post a story on FS, you both obviously have a problem with him.

"However this event does raise wider issues and it would be downright weird if people ignored them or deemed them 'off topic'."

Its a matter of opinion on how wide these issues are. In the end the editors will decide on whats on or off topic.

by anon Mon May 29, 2006 16:04

This thread is already about art and politics. What do you think is being discussed here???

That said I can see now though that your problem is coz you have particular views on Francis stuart. Fine, but dont you think its a bit much to try to stifle debate here because it doesn't suit your view?

The IPSC has the support of virtually everybody who contributes to indymedia (trolls excepted) - so nobody is undermining them or what they're up to. However this event does raise wider issues and it would be downright weird if people ignored them or deemed them 'off topic'.

by pat c Mon May 29, 2006 15:52

i'm not out to stifle discussion. if you want to start a discussion on francis stuart (misguided, but i dont think he was a nazi) then do so, post a new story, i'll join in. if you want to start a discussion on arts and politics i'll join in, on another story.

but if everything under the sun is discussed here then the central point of the IPSC protest and support for that will be lost.

by anon Mon May 29, 2006 15:46

How is Deirdres comment off topic? All this stuff is interlinked. Francis Stuarts collaboration with nazism isn't much different from this and all these people serve as examples of artists/writers promoting reightwing views.

This thread is as good a place as any to discuss the arts and politics. Dunno why Pat C is so determined to stifle discussion. All this stuff is linked and its important to recognise that its linked.

by pat c Mon May 29, 2006 15:43

"Who are you to say what should or shouldn't be discussed on this thread?"

eh, i'm pat c. i've given my opinion, just as you have given yours.

"It's open publishing - nobody should try to censor how threads develop unless they go against the Indymedia editorial guidelines as laid out, which my comment and other people's comments on arts did not."

in my humble opinion they did start to bring the story off topic. imho this thread is not about arts policy in general, its about a protest called by the IPSC. this story is certainly not about francis stuart & aosodanna and your personal views on that. if something is bringing a story off topic then it is against indymedia guidelines.

by Lino - None Mon May 29, 2006 15:40

You should be ashamed to describe Yehoshua as a war crimes advocate, a rightist and an extreme nationalist. Those of you eager to jump on the bandwagon, purely on the basis of a cynical misrepresentation of his position by the IPSC, should contemplate how close this brings you to being haters of free speech - especially shameful when you patently haven't read his work.

Ask yourselves this question - if Hamas sent a writer to Dublin would you mount a protest, and if not why not?

by Deirdre Clancy Mon May 29, 2006 15:31

Don't see why this is off topic, Pat C. I disagree with you on this one. This whole issue is about arts policy and politics, and how they interact - to me, this is obvious.

Who are you to say what should or shouldn't be discussed on this thread? It's open publishing - nobody should try to censor how threads develop unless they go against the Indymedia editorial guidelines as laid out, which my comment and other people's comments on arts did not.

By the way, of course I would support the IPSC protest. I have been to their events before and admire and support the work they do. The fact that people are looking at a broader perspective on this shouldn't, and doesn't, take from that. This original posting raised a lot of serious issues, in my view, and I think a discussion around them would be useful.

by Seán Ryan Mon May 29, 2006 15:25

Ok Pat, fair enough.

But let's talk methodology. If this event being prevented were likened to an apple at the end of a precarious branch on an ancient and twisted tree. There are lots of ways that you might grasp this apple, some of them being much better than others.

You could climb the tree and crawl to the end and grasp for the apple and then crawl backwards along the branch and then attempt to climb back down one-handed.

You could shake the tree. Not only would your apple come to you, but many other apples too would be released. Hell bring a chainsaw if you want, tis your tree and it's in your garden.

Ireland in a political sense does not support Israeli methodologies or arguments, this should be and could be a very large issue.

by pat c Mon May 29, 2006 15:04

You are bringing the storyline off topic by mentioning Francis Stuart and Aosodanna. There are those who would disagree with you on this who are on the left. But this is not the place to have that debate. Lets stick to supporting the IPSC protest.

PLEASE: no more discussion of Arts Policy or off topic subjects.

by Deirdre Clancy - Pitstop Ploughshares Mon May 29, 2006 14:58

It doesn't surprise me really that the Irish Writers' Centre is doing this. Unlike, say, France, we don't have much of a tradition here of high-profile artists and intellectuals being engaged with the politics of social justice or leftism (I'm not talking about their art engaging, which it is always dangerous to demand of artists, but the artists themselves as people engaging and speaking out about human rights, etc.). There are a couple of honourable people (three I can think of ) in the anti-war movement and the IPSC, and so on, but they're the exception who prove the rule. Otherwise, artists seem to think they should stay detached from politics for the sake of their art. This strikes me as rather shameful.

In the meantime, you have the folk at Aosdana unashamedly celebrating Francis Stuart (again, with a few honourable dissenters), trying to pretend that his political sympathies are irrelevant to how one views his work.

I remember a writer telling me a couple of years ago (unprompted) that she couldn't get involved in the anti-war movement because she was a poet, and she was translating Lorca. The irony of this (for anyone who's remotely aware of the story of that poet's life) was apparent to me, but clearly not to the artist herself.

by Seán Ryan Mon May 29, 2006 14:28

Speaking from experience as a musician. I know for a fact that Ireland possesses some of the most creative people (past and present) that have ever walked the face of the earth. Yet our culture is all but dead. To be replaced by a plastic-wrapped and spoonfed idea of consumerism.

The arts council should be sued for false advertising. As for them getting political about things - that's always been the way of it. If an artist has to lick boots to get exhibited and does so, I'd not be interested in their work. Been there, seen that.

I suppose some will argue that I should look at the little that the arts council does for the Irish arts. I tend to look at the larger picture - and this picture is not artistic it's a billboard.

I don't mean to divert this thread. My point is that the arts council are a very legitimate subject of protest and that bootlicking should form no part of any protest.

by Jerry Cornelius Mon May 29, 2006 14:10

The event is funded by the Israeli Embassy. While I think its a good idea to lobby the IWC about hosting the event, IMHO its best not to get on to the Arts Council. Do we really want the AC to start making political decisions on who gets its funding? Its something that could backfire on progressive Arts Centres and Groups.

by Chris Murray - The Unmanageables Mon May 29, 2006 14:06

Which you probably knew, thinking a bit laterally here, but
Letters of protest to the Art's Council wd be appropriate too
given that all bursaries and state support received thru the Art's Council have to be justified by the recepient.

Please look up the legislation in relation to Art's Council funding and Government support for the Art's. It has changed in the last two years under John O Donoghue and is possibly the most repressive Art's Policy since
De Valera's time, when a policy of degenerate art-Lite pervaded the State. Art was to reflect the vision of Ireland propounded by De V and mates, people like Hugh Lane, Jellet, Hone had to fund their own galleries, because unless it had a thatched cottage, it was not art.

it is possible to find out who is sponsoring the event, as far as I am aware the Writer's centre wd only receive an annual bursary and special one-off events wd be sponsored by individuals or businessess.

O Donoghue is at Dept of Arts and Sport.
(Punchestown section).

by pat c Mon May 29, 2006 13:38

Good idea! A reading or performance outside could work to our benefit. Bring it on! Jugglers, Stiltwalkers etc.

by idea girl - Earth Mon May 29, 2006 13:24

I don't think that an alternative event on the night would be the best way of showing opposition to this event, prehaps a protest outside would better serve to highlight our objection to this. An alternative event would be grand in their eyes as it would have us 'out of the way' and its not like the crowd planning to go to would be enticed away. The event planned to coincide is a good idea in general but I don't feel it would be good as a form of protest for the above reasons. Just a thought.

by pat c Mon May 29, 2006 11:34

And hes not much of a writer either. I'd give him a C and note: "does his best".

If you want to protest to the Irish Writers Centre about them hosting the meeting then the contact details are below. Its best to be polite in any communication, so don't call them running dogs of Zionism; its better to write or say that you are appalled that they are providing a forum for an advocate of War Crimes.

Irish Writers' Centre
19 Parnell Square
Dublin 1

Tel: +353 1 8721302
Fax: +353 1 8726282

Email: info@writerscentre.ie