Abbeylara Verdict In

by Coilín ÓhAiseadha Fri Jul 21, 2006 00:22

From RTE News:

Gardaí seal off town as stand-off with armed man continues
19 April 2000 22:50
http://www.rte.ie/news/2000/0419/abbeylara.html

Family calls for independent inquiry into Abbeylara shooting
25 April 2000 20:55
http://www.rte.ie/news/2000/0425/abbeylara.html

See also more links from the latter article to further articles.

I can't see the actual report on the website of either the Barr Tribunal or the Oireachtas. Maybe it's being published privately? \ /:?o

In the meantime, these headlines from the Examiner provide some clues:
15:16:27 Garda unions call for better training
Garda unions expressed regret at the death of John Carthy and called for improvements in training recommended by the Barr Tribunal report to be acted on immediately.

15:13:04 Senior gardaí and trained negotiator blamed for Carthy death
Two senior gardaí and a trained garda negotiator are ultimately to blame for the death of manic depressive John Carthy in the Abbeylara siege, the Barr Tribunal said today.

13:54:49 Illness, workload and printing problems delayed Barr report
A mystery illness to Mr Justice Robert Barr, a heavy workload and printing problems caused unforeseen delays in publishing the Barr Tribunal’s report, it was claimed today.

13:26:11 Garda Inspectorate will act on Barr report - McDowell
The Chief Inspector of the new Garda Inspectorate, Kathleen O’Toole, will immediately review Garda procedures and practices following the publication of the Barr report, the Minister for Justice Michael McDowell revealed today.

12:02:15 Barr Report says John Carthy did not intend to be shot
The Barr Report into the fatal shooting of John Carthy in Abbeylara six years ago has found that the 27-year-old did not intend to be shot by gardaí when he left his house.

07:10:59 Carthy killing report to be published
A long-awaited report into the fatal shooting of John Carthy after an armed siege with gardaí over six years ago is to be made public today.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breaking/group.asp?j=46810...47190

Best,
Coilín.

by Seán Ryan Fri Jul 21, 2006 02:00

At no time did this citizen, and troubled human being, deserve a death sentence, and anyway our law forbids it. The gardai still have to show a single justification for this homicide.

I mean before shooting him, they denied him contact with his family, his psychologist, they wouldn’t give him any cigarettes. This poor and desperate man was slowly isolated from all he knew and when he finally cracked, instead of incapacitation the gardai employed a shoot to kill policy.

A black day indeed.

RIP

by colon Fri Jul 21, 2006 04:16

the report is public. 700+ pages, a fiver from the govt pub. shop on molesworth st

go and buy it and read it and summarise it and post your report here on imc

by righteous pragmatist Fri Jul 21, 2006 14:34

"I mean before shooting him, they denied him contact with his family, his psychologist, they wouldn’t give him any cigarettes. This poor and desperate man was slowly isolated from all he knew and when he finally cracked, instead of incapacitation the gardai employed a shoot to kill policy."

If you knew the facts of the case then you would not be making such absurd allegations.

Carty you must remember was armed with a loaded shotgun and a quantity of lethal ammunition.
The fact that in a fit of rage he had threatened his family with the shotgun which prompted the arrival of armed gardai and the beginning of the siege. He opened fire repeatedly at the gardai and every attempt at reasoning with him was met with a blunt answer. "Fuck off" and a shotgun blast.
Michael Jackson's loudhailer with which he tried to communicate with Carty was hit by a shot gun blast.
Carty could not be contacted because he shot the phone off the wall inside the house.

It would have been extremely foolhardy and dangerous to allow members of the family or his psychologist to meet him - they might have either been shot dead or held hostage.

Gardai many of them married with children could hardly have been expected to make their wives widows and their children orphans if they were shot dead while giving Carty cigarettes because he was still armed with a loaded shot gun.

Carty emerged from the house with the loaded weapon. He opened the breach and ejected one of the cartridges in the gun but a second remained in the chamber of the other barrel when he locked the gun closed again. He passed through the first armed cordon and approached the second cordon of unarmed gardai refusing to halt or drop his weapon.

The gardai tried to incapacitate him by shooting him in the legs. But he continued moving forward.
Then and only then was he struck by the final fatal shots.
The shot which killed him struck him in the lower back because the Garda who fired had actually intended to wound him. Unfortunately at that instant Carty had begun to fall and the bullet exited through his chest killing him.

Carty and Carty alone was responsible for his own death.

by chris murray - the unmanageables Fri Jul 21, 2006 15:33

Named detectives who were gardai at the time of the siege have been ranked upwards.

Pics and crits in the Irish Times of today.

One of them brought John Mac Carthy in for questioning on the burning of a GAA mascot. The Judge concluded that the man interrogated and abused him, as well as accusing him of an alleged crime despite having no eye-witness verification.

John's sister was at the scene of the shooting and denied phone access to her brother. Mac Carthy asked for a solicitor after liveline broadcast personal details of a recent break-up during a siege situation.

The gardai are only to receive 'basic training' in a situation of psychiatric crisis, and we still have no result from the Lusk shoot to kill operation

Condolences to the family.

by Righteous Pragmatist Fri Jul 21, 2006 15:39

At Lusk a pair of raiders were robbing a post office and holding employees hostage when the ERU confronted them. One of them drew a weapons and the Garda confronted with a threat to his life and others shot the assailant dead. The second man was moving toward the armed gardai who believe he too was armed and so too was shot dead.
The Garda operations at Lusk and Abbeylara were excellently conducted operations.
The threat to life to both Gardai and the public from armed men was eliminated.

by Chris Murray - The Unmanageables Fri Jul 21, 2006 16:27

*The system is hierarchical. (note the shooters have been promoted, though seriously criticised yesterday)

*It is a system based on promotion.

*It is a system that has an internal politics and language.

*It is a system that can afford good quality legal representation.

*It is a system that is answerable to another branch of the internal organisation and
without an independent ombudsman.

*John Carthy was an individual.

*Denied access to his family members.

*The solicitor didn't make it.

*The state broadcaster vocalised details of his personal life. (they have not apologised to the family yet)

*It was about isolation and fear.

Someone died, others got promoted.

A family lost a son, brother, nephew, grandson.

*Bertie Ahern apologised to the survivors of that siege today. *

by Righteous Pragmatist Fri Jul 21, 2006 16:53

"*The system is hierarchical. (note the shooters have been promoted, though seriously criticised yesterday)"

Any organisation has to have an hierarchy with leaders at each level who hold rank and authority.
But what relevance has that got to do with the death of John Carty?

"*It is a system based on promotion."

In any organisation members can be promoted.
But again what relevance has this to the shooting of John Carty?

"*It is a system that has an internal politics and language."

Relevance?

*It is a system that can afford good quality legal representation.

Relevance?

*It is a system that is answerable to another branch of the internal organisation and
without an independent ombudsman.

What relevance does the existence of an independent ombudsman have to the shooting of John Carty?

"*John Carthy was an individual."

John Carty was an individual armed with a loaded shotgun who fired at gardai and refused to put down his weapon.

"*Denied access to his family members."

John Carty was firing at anybody who approached the house or exposed themselves above the front wall to talk to him. Are you suggesting that Gardai put his family members in danger?

"*The solicitor didn't make it."

If Carty was firing at gardai why would we assume he was not going to endanger his solicitor if he went into the house to talk to him? The soliticitor would no doubt have encourage him to give himself up. Carty should not sign at any time that he was prepared to end the seige peacefully

"*The state broadcaster vocalised details of his personal life. (they have not apologised to the family yet)"

Now that certainly is relevant. Carty might have acted differently if there had not been so much media intrusion.

"*It was about isolation and fear."

Carty had nothing to fear. He simply could have put down his gun and come out peacefully but he didnt and his actions cost him his life.

"Someone died, others got promoted."

Carty died but that was his fault. The bravery and professionalism of the gardai has been tranished by the hysterical conclusions of Justice Barr.

"A family lost a son, brother, nephew, grandson."

Again that was Carty's own fault.

"*Bertie Ahern apologised to the survivors of that siege today. *"

Again relevance?

by mak Fri Jul 21, 2006 20:45

Check out the following link for minute by minute account of what happened at Abbeylara.
http://www.irlgov.ie/committees-00/c-justice/Reports/ab...t.htm

by mak Fri Jul 21, 2006 20:59

Numerous efforts made by family members and friends to make contact with Carthy.
Carthy actually spoke with a number of these friends and family members to no avail, but of course this is not being reported. Carthy told them to 'Fuck Off', or just refused to talk to them.

As per Dr. Harbison's report, Carthy was shot twice in the legs before being fatally wounded with two gunshot wounds to the lower torso. Being shot in the legs is conducive to a 'Shoot to Kill' policy, How?
The fatal shots fired were only fired after Carthy failed to drop his LOADED shotgun having already been shot twice in the legs.

There is no doubt that there were systematic failings in the Garda handling of the Abbeylara incident, but targetting individual Gardai who were faced with the unimaginable situation of having to take the life of a man because of his mental condition makes little of your arguments.

by tim Fri Jul 21, 2006 23:29

Just compare the shooting of the brazilan guy in London over a year ago to the John Carty incident, - he fired no shots at the police, was innocent and ended up with 7 shots to his head and dead. The Crown prosecution services have said no prosecution of the police men who shot him and Tom Blair has ruled out a public inquiry on the grounds of cost, the police are going to be prosecuted under health and safety laws with probally no consequences for them only more bad press.

WE SPENT 18 million on this report into this shooting which Barr now states was lawful and it took This barr guy over 4 years to complete it, The report skims over what I feel is a massive question, Why was Carty given back his gun when the Gardai strongly objected to him having it in the first place - a shrink wrote a letter which made it possible for him to have to be given his gun back - this shrink in my view is getting away very lightly, it seems to me that Barr made his mind up about this before he even started - What about the negligence shown by RTE in the 5 7 live programme, they had a shambles of a primetime programme on last night and as u would expect failed to mention their own mention in the report.

The Gardas who managed the scene could have done better, I wonder if Justice Barr was at the scene on the date in question would he have been so knowledgable. He'd have stayed well away, if Carty shot a member of the family or a doctor or a shrink who the gardai let in to see him then they would have questions to answer. Dammed if u do ad dammed if u dont

by ojon - none Sat Jul 22, 2006 03:15

You can't win. Judge Barr has spent four years listening to the witnesses,
and writing his report - whatever Tim thinks of it. I would expect that the Judge would (on balance) be in a much better position to comment fully on this tragic event than Tim - who probably hasn't read the report at all.

by Micawber Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:24

The show goes on. Bring on the next tribunal. If you think these tribunals will change anything you are seriously mistaken. It will of course increase the liiving standard of our legal profession who have blocked any attempts to change their restrictive practices in case members of the lower classes would get in to their cosy cartel.
We can get up on our high horses about Abbeylara while at the same time the rich get richer.
Attack the police but let the Judiciary who release child rapists on compassionate grounds off the hook