Pics from Bush, Blair and the Truth meeting

by anon Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:54

He doesn't think that AWI has only five members, he's simply saying so because he's feeling competitive: in fact, it seems he does think that this is a pissing competition. Why else would he grossly inflate the membership of the IAWM and then stick in a sneaky and untruthful put-down of AWI - and of the anarchists - except he's feeling some bizarre need to assert IAWM dominance?

by MichaelY - iawm Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:51

You may be a maths man but how about reading my comment above one more time - with a bit of attention? I spoke of those I saw at the Dublin march. I was making no comment about the AWI largesse or girth in Cork or elsewhere......If I said half the march was made up by AWI comrades I would have been accused, by one troll or another, of exaggerating.

Also it's great news that you're building a strong organisation in Cork.

I have already said I stand corrected. In this context, it is your message and its purpose that is baffling!

by maths man Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:37

AWI has branches in Dublin, Belfast and Cork. They're the biggest anti-war group by a long stretch in Cork. How could you think they only had 5 members? Baffling.

by MichaelY - iawm Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:27

To activist

On the numbers of AWI comrades present in the march, I accept the figures provided above. I wrote about those I saw and recognised who were in a group towards the tail of the march...if the organisation has grown and has new faces - great. So much better for the wider anti-war movement.

It was also pointed out to me that I forgot to mention tha large contingent from Derry who were there.....that's also good news.

by activist Thu Oct 12, 2006 18:38

I suspect michael thinks that awi is composed solely of the members who know him or that he knows personally. Or is he just being snide? The comment about the anarchists is a bit weird as well. What does he mean by that?

by Not a dissident - Me Thu Oct 12, 2006 18:24

One of two individuals on the committee of the IAWM showing support for the ploughshares (and one or two did, eventually) does not make for 'full and open support' for these actions. The IAWM can take NO credit for the 'successful defence' of the Pitstop Ploughshares. That was all down to them, their group of loyal supporters, and their legal team. Added to which, the IAWM response to the acquittal was lukewarm to say the least.

by MichaelY - IAWM Thu Oct 12, 2006 17:16

Your points shifted from direct action, to the Raytheon 9, to wanting to see pics of our membeship on Indymedia, to numbers on the recent march. to infections we caught from SWP. And you say you continue laughing.....that is serious!

Listen - there is a debate on the recent report on Iraqi deaths that was started in another thread - there is debate on the various staements made in the Dail yesterday re: sending Irish troops to Lebanon - there are at least three threads re:Rossport and the arrests and the occupation of the Shell HQ....do all of us a favour and contribute something real and dynamic to those debates. Based on your activity and political views. Enthrall us all!!

Your visceral anti-SWPism serves no further purpose....except to dig your own hole deeper and deeper. And if the IAWM membership/activists is really 90%+ SWP, you, a supporter of democracy would not really accept that a non-SWP member became Chairperson - would you? Or would you? Keep laughing my friend....

by anti-war irelander Thu Oct 12, 2006 17:13

Some go up and some come down.

Michael kindly mentions an AWI presence at the recent march and then very oddly puts our numbers at 5 to 6.

For the record, more than 15 AWI members gathered in advance to hand out leaflets that day advertising the Shannon demonstration on 28th October. These included comrades who travelled from Belfast. Apart from these members, several others also attended the march or joined in along the way. AWI is a small anti-war organisation - like the IAWM and all other existing groups - but we pull our weight. This isn't a pissing contest, so let's not make it one.

by John Thu Oct 12, 2006 16:51

Sorry, MichaelY, but I'm still laughing. Yeah, I was at the Dublin march and 850 as an attendence figure is laughable. 500 attended on a miserable day. 850! Hilarious. And by the way, what alternative anarchist anti-war event that day are you talking about? I saw plenty of anarchists on the march.

Your bloating of figures is like some infection you've picked up from the SWP. The IAWM has nowhere near the numbers you ascribe to it and those who are active are 90% SWP. Nobody will take you seriously if you carry on spouting this unbelieveable rubbish.

by MichaelY - iawm Thu Oct 12, 2006 16:35

Dear members of the jury - Your Honour(s)

With all due respect, I find the arguments of this 'anonymous' John very provocative and out-of-touch. He personalised the debate because he is obviously incapable of reading or understanding what he reads - all the political criticisms towards the IAWM from his and the other anonymous messagers, that have been responded to the best way we can, he has now reduced to the request of posting pics of members of IAWM on Indymedia.... this is, to tell the truth, a very worrying development. It smells bad!! I told him he can see pictures, if he's genuine.....he's obviously not.
He cannot count either, which is not surprising, because the recent anti-war march in Dublin had over 850 people in it....and yes many many people were members of IAWM....and Eirigi....and 5-6 AWI members.....and the march was marked by the total absence of the anarchist contingent who were very busy involved in anti-war activity that day elsewhere....I doubt John himself was there.....
To conclude, the IAWM is growing - right across the country and it's very active - I advise John to go tonight to the Raytheon 9 Fundraiser in Rathmines, seeing that he supports them, and count heads there.....details elsewhere in Indymedia....and raise the issue of direct action....his and others'.....and John, and his friends, whoever they may be, as we are growing and stabilising, are getting worried....and I am sure you know what they say about jokes and who laughs last.

I hope btw that this is the last we hear from John - I really do - he is pissing in the wind....and the wind is changing!

by John Thu Oct 12, 2006 15:06

Yeah, I'd love to see a photo of your 20 Dublin members or, even better, of your 100 Dublin members! Go on, stick it up. You're a fantasist, MichaelY. Going on your figures, fully one-fifth of those who attended the recent anti-war march were Dublin members of the IAWM. I suppose the other 400 were members from other parts of the country? Oh, and the 80 odd people who attended your recent public meeting in the ATGWU hall were also all Dublin IAWM activists (where were the other 25?).

You do make me laugh.

by MichaelY - iawm Thu Oct 12, 2006 14:06

John, whoever you are, thanks for the response. It clarifies matters slowly.

Re:untruths....the IAWM has active local Dublin groups in: Inchicore, Rathmines, Bray, Dunlaoighaire, Ballymun, North Strand and City Centre. This week the Rathmines group is running a Raytheon fundraiser, while the NorthStrand group is showing a film on the apartheid wall. This is over and above the nearly 100 people who turned up in the ATGWU meeting - the title of this thread.The City Centre Group, that I attend, and meets every Tuesday evening has a membership of over 20! Would you like to see some pictures of all 20 of us helping the IPSC in our boyvott activity in M&S recently.....so, good friend, truth, untruth and all such concepts are in the eye of the beholder. Keep your ha ha has to yourself is my advice. Look at your own activity, if there is any, and that of your friends/colleagues/mates/comrades. And tell us about it. The jury is out.

On Raytheon - I said it. Irrespective of what the IAWM did or did not do re:Mary Kelly and the Shannon 5 , our support for the Ploughshares trial and now of Raytheon is real, public and open.....apart for myself, there were 5 other IAWM members in the Four Courts every day....ask Deirdre and Fintan who know who those 5 were....you're obviously fixated on individuals - it won't work. As for doing something similar in the 26 Counties, as our comrades in the 6, who are, you seem to forget part of the IAWM, hold your horses. We're not about investing in megaphone diplomacy re:closing down Shannon etc...but, as I said, watch this space. Dreams can come true sometimes. And good for you supporting the Raytheon 9 - or is it just the 6 non-SWP that is in your focus?

by John Thu Oct 12, 2006 13:40

Most of what you've written, MichaelY, is beside the point, untrue (100 IAWM activists in Dublin!!! Ha ha ha! :-), or a deliberate twisting of words.

However, the one the really gets to me is your imputation that I - or anybody else -suggested that the Raytheon 9 were manipulating the anti-war movement. I said nothing of the sort and they have my ACTIVE support - I said that the IAWM & SWP were hypocrites who were using the Derry action for their own ends in complete contradiction to their previous behaviour. Stop hiding behind the Raytheon 9. It won't work. They did something that you and the rest of the IAWM in Dublin would never dream of doing.

As for the IAWM fully supporting the Ploughshares over the last year - are you joking? Let us, for example, take your 5-year chair, RBB: did he attend even one day of the Ploughshares three trials? Was he ever in court to extend his solidarity? The answer is 'no'. A couple of the committee members like yourself turned up every now and again - the IAWM did as close to nothing for the Ploughshares as humanly possible. The IAWM did nothing either for Mary Kelly, except to undermine her.

The IAWM is virtually non-existent. If the SWP weren't involved, you'd have a dozen active members nationally.

by MichaelY - iawm Thu Oct 12, 2006 13:18

I am delighted DD's pictures and the very successful meeting we held the night before last brought out all this interesting and knowledgeable and sensitive debate. To summarize the prosecution's case:
The IAWM has had the same Chairperson for 5 years
This has resulted in militants being thin on the ground and we have no competent people to replace RBB
Our Committees are infested with 9/11 conspiracy nuts
IAWM people go around blithely supporting Islamic militants
Our support for the Rayhteon 9 isn't real but because 3 of the 9 are SWP members.
The IAWM is not the anti-war movement.`

Well, members of the jury and Your Honour(s), let me begin by saying of how proud I am of being a member of the IAWM. I want you, as a result, excuse any overstepping the limits of discretion or deficits of language which may rear their ugly head in my defence. I am personally and politically involved in this so my approach will not be objective.

Of course, the IAWM is not the anti-war movement.....there were 150,000 of us in the streets in 2003...that was the anti-war movement - the greatest expression of anti-war sentiment, and one of the greatest demonstrations this State has ever seen....over the last couple of years we have had countless meetings, demonstrations, pickets, stalls, leafletting....we've given out over three quarters of a million leaflets....thousands have come to our meetings...we work as closely as we can with Anti War Ireland, with Cosantoiri Siochana, with PANA, with the IPSC....all of us together, and many I have not mentioned, are the ANTI WAR MOVEMENT.
Whatever the IAWM did or did not do three-four years ago re:Mary Kelly and the Shannon 5, over the last year our support of the Ploughshares in their successful defence and now the Raytheon 9 has been unconditional, full and open. Call it a change of heart, call it seeing reality, call it re-assessing the political situation, call it what you like - but, undeniably it stares you in the face. To accuse militants who were courageous enough to take on Raytheon and the British State, and who are confronted by long prison sentences if found guilty by the Diplock Courts, as two-faced and politically manipulative is to go over the bounds of decency. I hope you agree, members of the jury!
The fact that we are "infested" (what a horrible word) by "conspiracy nuts" is utter bull...from the 12 members of the present Steering Committee, 4 of which are SWP (which in simple maths Your Honour(s) non-SWP activists outvote SWP militants by 2:1), I don't think there is even 1 (one) who is a "cosnpiracy nut"!! Whoever wrote this nonsense above is either ignorant or, most likely, a malicious provocateur.
On the issue of 'competence'....the non-SWP members of the SC, on average, have a political past going back 15 years!! Some of us have been active in this and other countries over 25 years!! Now, I freely admit that it would have been great if people like Fintan and Harry and Sinead and some others hadnot left---or forced to leave....but the fact that we manage to work together gives us hope for a possible future alignment. Now, of course, you may argue that political experience and competence don't go necessarily together - look at Bertie!! But that's another day's discussion.....
The "thin on the ground" argument is also codswallop....there are, currently, 6 local-based IAWM groups in Dublin alone with a combined membership of well over 100!! Some of them have been set up during the last 6 months! These are people working politically, daily, as part of the anti-war movement......there are also 9 affiliated organisations right across the country.
Finally, and I apologise for taking so long, dear members of the jury, yes many of us in the IAWM we support the anti-imperialist resistance wherever and whenever it manifests itself and becomes active against the Empire. Of course, for example, we supported Hezbollah in ther successful fight against Israeli agression - along with all Lebanese people who supported them....of course we support Hamas as the elected representatives of the Palestinian people...of course we support the Kurdish militants who are fighting against Turkish militarism......and, of course, we support all sections of the Iranian opposition, including those fighting against the present theocratic regime!! And we support them, not because they're Moslem, or Christian, or atheist, or anarchist or communist as is the case of sections of the Iranian opposition, but because they're anti-imperialists and they're prepared to fight!! And, as a footnote, of course many of us supported and were part of the anti-imperialist resistance here in our own country, that fought British imperialism. All parts of it - the Catholics, and the socialists, and the Republicans and the Republican Socialists and the Socialist Republicans and the anarchists!! Seriously!

So here we are....the IAWM , btw, is having a National Meeting on Saturday Nov.4th at 10.00 in the morning in the Royal Dublin Hotel. Come and talk to us, dear members of the jury - Your Honour(s) you're also invited!! Don't be coy! Dissidents would be welcome too!

And check the 2.00 pm meeting on that day in the same venue. Details in Indymedia's 'Events' section. Some really competent guests. Come early, entrance is free but seats are liomited to 300!! And who knows - even our venerable Chairperson may decide not to chair that meeting - hope eternal!!

Time to go for a walk. It's a lovely sunny day outside. Thanks for reading this btw.

by John Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:57

I don't know why people are confused about the IAWM & SWP show of support for the Raytheon 9 compared to their complete lack of solidarity with those arrested at Shannon. Mary Kelly, the Pit Stop Ploughshares and all the others arrested from the mass trespass in October 2002 to March 1st were non-SWP. Three of the Raytheon 9 are SWP members (who probably took part without consulting HQ), so the SWP and the IAWM front can hardly leave them swinging in the wind like they did with erstwhile IAWM PRO Fintan Lane, when he was jailed, or all the others who endured long trial processes like the Ploughshares and Mary Kelly. Ignore Eamon McCann? Let McCann to twist in the wind? Not a chance!

It does, of course, create problems for them because how can they now undermine and condemn other attempts at direct action? On the other hand, they can controll the Raytheon situation - the PR work is being done by SWPers - and it allows them to claim that they really DO support direct action, despite their previous persistent undermining of individuals and groups who advocated the tactic in the past. But, will the IAWM & SWP now start advocating direct action at Shannon or anywhere else in the south? Don't hold your breath.

It's rank hypocrisy, but what can you do? The world moves in mysterious ways.

by Not a dissident Thu Oct 12, 2006 03:43

Eh, yes should have made that clear. People are thin on the ground within that grouping resulting in no other competent person to chair and giving the impression, an accurate one, of utter stagnation. All the other competent folk have joined other organisations or groups.

I just say I am not a dissident because 'dissident' would imply the IAWM is the 'real' anti war movement, whereas nthing could be further from the truth at this stage.

by am a dissident Thu Oct 12, 2006 00:50

'It has had the same chair for about 5 years, which shows how thin on the ground are people who are willing or able to do that job.'

actually I think you have the situation backwards.

the fact that the IAWM has had the same chair for 5 years has created a situation where the number of people 'on the ground' are thin.

otherwise, im inclined to agree with what you said

by Not a dissident - non-affiliated anti-war person Thu Oct 12, 2006 00:40

Strange that the IAWM is scrambling to support the Raytheon 9 when it wouldn't support any of the Shannon defendants in any meaningful way.

The IAWM is really disappointing. It has had the same chair for about 5 years, which shows how thin on the ground are people who are willing or able to do that job. It is gradually allowing its committee to become infested with 9/11 conspiracy nuts. Its most vocal members go around blthely calling for anti-war people to support Islamic militants - this from a so-called anti-war movement? No wonder people have gone off and set up other groups.

by pedant Thu Oct 12, 2006 00:31

Dunno about that but it should be noted that the IAWM is definitely not the antiwar movement. Not by a long shot.

by Cabbage Patch Wed Oct 11, 2006 23:38

It is innappropriate for a candidate in the upcoming general election to remain as chair of the Anti War Movement.

by MichaelY - iawm Wed Oct 11, 2006 17:59

My PC had the same problem....every time I typed the word TRUTH after those two names it beeped and refused to proceed. A couple of times it froze.

The solution: I typed the word o u r truth first and then went back and typed the two names.....and it accepted that!! And then, with a swift movement I learnt from my political elders I selected the word o u r and pressed delete. Bingo....

Try it!

by ctrl-z Wed Oct 11, 2006 17:52

I am surprised you were able to write your heading. No matter how often I tried, I could not keep Bush, Blair and........................................ the truth together. Every time I put Bush next to Blair............ the truth moved away. As a matter of fact, they don't need to be together to repel the truth. Putting them together just increases the effect.

by Michaely - iawm Wed Oct 11, 2006 17:51

Delighted you find our analysis amusing....it reflects accurately our amusement when the all-knowing experts of the general Indymedia world look at the recent IAWM activity with bleary eyes - to say the least.

Now - the so-called dissidents, the AWIs and the Cosantoiris and some of the anarchists and a few SF travellers(please note I don't include the SPs there)and us, the SWP minions and puppets, have found ways of working together, organising together, supporting each other...building the foundation of a large, non-manipulative, non- directed anti-war movement.

So, amusement aside, we look at our future with a great deal of optimism....check this space for a few more events we have in mind to put together. Check our Press Release of today re:the deployment of Irish troops in Lebanon and the position taken by the Labour Party and Sinn Fein.. Check the Events in Indymedia for Nov. 4th. And keep laughing....for we may lack political savvy and contacts but by Jaysus are we full of energy !!

Fraternally

by amused Wed Oct 11, 2006 17:08

The minions have revolted in the IAWM before and RBB is still ina shui. Just be thankful that he (and the SWP enforcers) can find you things to do. "Dissidents" in the past have found that the best thing is to just fuck off and do their own thing - somewhere else.

Thanks for the humour, though. Brightened an otherwise dull day.

by MichaelY - iawm Wed Oct 11, 2006 16:42

Just a comment to 'plus ca change'.....

It was a great good and useful meeting. Re:the fact that we had one SWP speaker from Derry and another from Dun Laoghaire is fundamentally because of the following reasons:

a. The non-SWP members of either the Steering Committee, the 7 Dublin Action Groups or the other Raytheons at the moment are lazy, incompetent, bereft of political nous, incapable of speaking in public, shy, foreign, incoherent, unable to put two sentences together and so on. With no handsome public profile. And afraid to travel by either bus or train and prone to be smiling stupidly with no apparent reason. A few of us are also prone to excessive drinking - but that's another discussion thread.
b. As a result, we always agree, or forced to agree by either superior logic or threats, to allow the public speaking and profiling to be done by our 'betters'.
c. Consequently we are forced to more menial and less illustrious tasks such as leafletting, running stalls, postering again and again as the DCC takes our posters down, drive our guests around from and to airports, put them up, buy them drinks, discuss politics with them quietly.....all the oppressive and degrading tasks implied in being a member of a movement....we are what some refer to as , kindly and protectively I am sure, 'minions' or 'puppets'.....and many of us are even proud of our misery.

d. But all this will change....as it always does....watch this space. Seriously.

by plus ça change Wed Oct 11, 2006 15:57

well done on a good meeting - but same old iawm story with speakers. 2 swp and 1 other. And of course rbb chairs and speaks. Will it ever change?