Charging recyclers is a backward step

by Charles B. Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:01

Cheap shot indeed. The cost of collecting recyclable materials and sending them for recycling is quite considerable. Would you think about giving your councillors allowance towards this cost if Mayo Co. Co. decide to go with your idea?
Most recycling facilities in the country charge a nominal fee at the gate, and there are very few complaints. Waste costs money, a lot to landfill, a little less to recycle. Why start giving out about being charged a few euro for recycling, when you should be giving out about the amount of crap that we consume and then wonder what to do with the packaging?
As you should be aware, there is huge concern about what we are doing to our planet, and if trying to deal with the major waste problems that this country has means charging folk a few bob in order for there to be a well organised and properly run recycling centre near them (as both of the facilities in Mayo are), then isn't it worth it?
And besides aren't you aware of the fact that the decisions in relation to waste management related issues aren't made by the Co. Councillors, but by the executive of the local authority? Reason:-Nothing would ever get done if it was up to the councillors because of the 'no landfill, no recycling centres, no nathin to do with waste near me or my constituents because they don't think it'd be good for their property prices!!' phenomenon.

by maire Thu Nov 02, 2006 13:02

By charging for recycling we are trying to produce waste for commercial incineration , which is not viable at the moment because we the public have made such a good job of recycling. Your area is being made productive for this industry.
The policy to burn our waste instead of preventing or recycling our waste goes against all logic where climate change is concerned. The problem of toxic ash which has to be landfilled must be discussed and not air brushed away.
There is method in their madness.

by Mike Thu Nov 02, 2006 19:17

While the recycling centres in Mayo are a step in the right direction they are located in the @r$€hole of nowhere requiring people to use their fossil fuel depleting greenhouse gas emmiting deathtraps (assuming they are "lucky" enough to have the use of one) to transport their waste to the "recycling centre" !

Every local authority should operate a FREE doorstep collection service for recyclable waste. Such a service (if it cannot be profitable in itself) could be subsidised by weight based charging for collecting mixed waste. Thus those who go to the trouble of seperating all their waste for recycling pay little or nothing while those who cannot be bothered pay dearly for the privelage.

by cool j Thu Nov 02, 2006 23:30

A recent survey of Co. Council.'s in ireland show Mayo CC has the worst recycling record in the country - The same survey shows Mayo is the most mal-administered county in the country with one of the worst records on everything from waste disposal, planning, provison of safe drinking water and its cruel clumsydog warden service among others - which is some record when you look what passes for County adminstration in so many other counties. Mayo CC bare a large responsiblity for the mess at Bellanaboy, having repeatidly failed to call Shell to heal over its large number of illegal works done without planning permission and their ongoing contamination of the Erris water supply at Loch Carrowmore.

Many people in the county are fed up with the situation and there have been calls for both the County manger and secretary to resign for ongoing imcompetance!!

by Charles B. Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:02

Maire: Where do you make the link between charging for recycling and some otherworldly conspiracy about it being driven by the Incineration lobby. Thats just plain ridiculous. OK, so if a butterfly flaps its wings in Beijing then perhaps theres a storm in Ringaskiddy in 2012 and it floods the carpark of the new inceineration plant, but if a local authority doesn't have the funding to run a well organised recycling facility through no fault of its own and decides to charge a couple of € per car load or however they do it, then how is this linked to fly ash being produced from materials that are being collected for recycling?? You may find this hard to believe but all of these things cost money you know! Its this sort of NIMBY, BANANA attitude that has left a lot of people like myself who have real concerns about the effect of our society and our ultra consumerist attiutde feeling cold towards the knee jerk reactions towards any waste managment initiatives in this l'il old country of ours. Instead of jumping and shouting every time someone whinges about being charged about getting rid of their waste (which they produce through every fault of their own, if you really want a zero waste society, you have to stop people consuming, not shoot down every effort there is being made to deal with the problem at hand), why don't you think of a way of getting people to stop stuffing their faces and oversized houses with shite they don't need.
Mike: So ok the two facilities aren't in the middle of a huge concentration of people, but Mayo is quite a rural place you know. Both are situated relatively close to the two biggest population centres in the county, and if one was to only go when they had a full load and were visiting the area, then they wouldn't be wasting lots of fossil fuels would they? You're right through in saying that people can save a lot if they recycle and are lucky enough to have a doorstep collection. But the sad truth is that many, many people just couldn't be bothered doing it and are happy enough to pay extra just for the convenience of being able to chuck everythin into the same bin, sad but true. And as for every local authority operating a free recyclable collection, because it may pay for itself, you are having a giraffe mate aren't you? The collection of waste isn't like a licence to print money you know. There is no way on Gods green (for now) earth that this would pay for itself. The only waste stream that is worth any money in itself is metal (cans) and this effectively subsidises the rest of the stuff we send for recycling. And as for using the monies collected for waste disposed of at landfill, most of this is already going into servicing the landfills as they are way expensive and cost a lot to run and maintain.
Cool J.: You are obviously heavily involved in the situation in Bellanaboy and this can be seen in your attitude towards Mayo Co. Co. It wasn't this local authority that was resonsible for handing over the rights to the gas, which I personally see as being the main difficulty, that was a corrupt government some time ago. As for the survey in relation to recycling, that is more likely to be the fault of the people of Mayo rather than the coco. Don't know where you get the rest of the 'worst county in ireland' stuff, like the cruel clumsy dog warden service thing. Sounds like you had your pitbull taken off you. Would think that most dog warden services around the country are seen to be cruel and clumsy by those who have had animals taken away.
Just had to get those couple of things off my chest, kept me awake last night thinking about them. Nothing personal against any of you, but its the type of attitude shown by all of you above that prevents any real solidarity being arrived at by the vast, but silent majority. Its ok to spout this type of non-information amoungst yourselves at meetings of like minded people, but if you want to get supprt from the rest of us, then you'd want to be slightly more objective in your approach, rather than poohpooh every ickle thing that may not be exactly what you want. Phew.
And Cool J. if someone "bared" their responsibility, then that means they were just showing it off, where as if they were to "bear" responsibility, then it was their fault like, capiche.
Also, could you tell us where that recent survey is available? Sounds like interesting reading, if it does indeed exist

by cool j Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:53

Can be a accessed in the Western People online from a number of weeks ago - type in the relevant search, I think it was back in september. The recycling rate in mayo is a mere 4%(worst in the country) due to a lack of proper facilities. Here in Belmullet my nearest recyling facilties for plastic, batteries etc. is over 40 miles away in Ballina. Your comments about the dog warden are deeply ignorant since the figures show Mayo Co. Co. is the second worst in the country for killing dogs and no not pit-bulls but mainly abandoned sheep dogs and puppies of various breeds. The Co. Co. has refused to work with local animal charities to reduce this carnage through owner education, rehoming, subsidised neutering and micro chipping despite the fact that they take in over 50,000 euro a year in dog licences. In contrast Sligo and Lietrim Co.Co. who in recent years have worked closely with welfare charities to solve the problem have reduced the kill rate to under 20 animals as opposed to the appaling situation in Mayo were 300-500 dogs are put down every year.The crises in water quality throughout the county is well known and was the subject of a Prime-time investigation earlier in the year. Many people in the county will remember the embarrasing interview with the COunty secretary John Condon who made a complete ass of himself on national TV when after making a hash of anwering some simple question asked the interviewer "Is this being filmed".

By the sounds of it Charles you appear to have a vested interest in covering up the glaring inadequacies of Mayo Co.Co. which is fine but lets deal with the facts before you engage in an ill-informed rant!!.

by Charles B. Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:36

Don't know about being ill informed. As far as I can see I didn't use any bad information in my rant, which is exactly what it was, I only gave my opinion. I then asked for where you got your information, which you have given, so I could inform myself, thank you. I do confess to being deeply ignorant in relation to being informed about the numbers of animals being put down, and in relation to many other things including numbers of fish in the sea (less and less by the sounds of it though) and stars in the sky, please excuse my deep ignorance. The dog figures do sound disturbing though, granted. As for the Mr. Conden making an ass of himself, that he most certainly did.
But as for having a vested interest in covering up the inadequacies of mayo Co Co, the only vested interest I have in that is reading about the Bellanaboy fiasco in my underwear. In fact I would think that many of the countries local authorities provide inadequate services, but it is the situation in Bellanaboy that has lead to other issues such as water quality etc. being focussed upon in this county.
But we have all of us digressed from the original subject. I maintain that it costs money to recycle, and you certainly won't have a recycling facility near you if they can't afford to provide one in Belmullet because they have to continue subsidising the facilities in Ballina and Castlebar to the extent they are now, pre-charge. Perhaps if they can encourage more people to recycle and can collect a nominal fee for it then they will be in a position to provide you and the people of your area with appropriate facilities. We're happy enough to spend our hard earned monies on luxuries that we don't need, so why cry and gnash out teeth when asked to pay for an essential service, which I think we'll all agree recycling facilities are. We don't live in a socialist utopia, even if Bertie is a Trot deep down, and therefore shouldn't really be expecting the State to provide all these services for free. We live in a market driven capitalist economy, like it or not.
Anyway, thats it. You won't get anymore from me on this particular subject as it tends to make me lose the run of myself. Apologies for any sensibilities offended.

by Chuck Demawl Fri Nov 03, 2006 13:15

Some people seem to have a problem seeing the wood for the trees.

Yes, it costs money to recycle, or to landfill, but there's plenty of money, and the local authorites were providing it.
There IS money for this. The central government has a surplus, and a duty to look out for the country in general. Or perhaps they forgot that it's a country or a nation, now that they refer to Ireland as an 'economy'.

What's this about NIMBYism and expecting things for free?
1. People WANT recycling facilities 'In their Back Yard'
2. We are PAYING TAXES.... we are asking for hospitals, and waste facilties and schools, and public transport... and we're getting.... bypasses, (while the govt delays introducing the buses - see Dublin bus Fiasco, and screw us the Luas project) and tax cuts for developers, and subsidies for the US military at Shannon, tax free status for the few in the horse industry.
When was the last time you were in Tesco's and the person packing the bags was collecting for the N40 upgrade?
Never, there's someone collecting for a school, or a hospital, even though there's an exchequer surplus. Did this never occur to you?

It is common sense to spot the creeping movement towards stealth taxes and privitisation.
I also agree with one point by Charles B, that perhaps Co. Cllrs could give up their pay to help subsidise services...
My local authority started paying the councillors, around the same
Was that a sohpisticated way of paying them off, so they don't make a big shout about the removal of powers from elected officials (however lazy or inept) and granting them to an unlected unaccountable and practically unassailable bureaucrat (who owes alliegance to? ). Why pay councillors now that they do even less?

And I partially agree with Charles B, that the key to waste (and also energy) problems is firstly to consume less, but in fairness, the government is doing very little to help, and there is a right to gripe.
I try to avoid packaging, and in the past few years I've seriously reduced the amount of waste I produce, but it's not very easy to eliminate it, and the motivation can be drained from people making the switch when they have to drive so far and then cough up money... so, I think you're missing out on a point there. It's not just that we should give free recycling to let people off the hook for doing their own bit, but that we should not remove the incentives.
Perhaps Charles and others, see most people as simply lazy and irresponsible, and needing to be forced to do the right thing, but that's NOT true for most people. A lot of people are accustomed to, and fairly stuck in the rut of consumer society, with its throwaway culture, but anywhere I've seen a recycling centre in a neighbourhood, I see people using it.
Of course, a bit of carrot and stick does help, but it's not that the public needs only the stick as some might suggest.
One of the controversial taxes painted as an incentive for recycling came in when they privatised and charged for waste collections. Recycle, and you save money. Unfortunately, a lot of people also thought, - just burn it and save money, particularly in areas where there is private waste collection, but no recycling centre... It's been a total failure.
Where people have real incentives to recycle, people check what is recycleable and are more conscious of waste, and become pro-actively environmental, rather than just avoiding financial penalties. Give people a bit more credit for things, and a little less of the blame for , in fairness, wasteful consumption was not the idea of consumers, it is very profitable, and there is a lot of marketing behind it, and little space for opposing voices, and certainly no real leadership from government.

Anyone sensible who steps back should see that the government should take measures to force manufacturers to re
Abandon the sham of REPAK, begin serious information campaigns about reducing waste beyond 'Please reduce waste' as a slogan, and few facilities or regulations to help create the right conditions for it.
But they won't because of the IBEC lobby. Full stop.
Supermarkets don't like it when I remove surplus packaging at their store, and they say they don't have to accept returned packaging cos of REPAK. I simply point out that I am not RETURNING it, I am refusing to take it in the first place... try it, it works every time for me... (by the way, I get most of my shopping from local suppliers, fresh produce markets etc. before you give me stick for going to supermarkets)

It's our responsibility to make consumer choices and waste choices yes..., but the current waste cycle is large and not easy to change, so the government does have a duty to help, not hinder, and certainly not introduce needless taxes.

For this government to do something purely for the good of the nation, would be like Satan deciding to distribute flowers and sweets in an orphanage, just to be nice... - It's just not in the character.

by Jane Fri Nov 03, 2006 13:55

I used to think that the surest solution to the waste problem would be to ban ALL bins, and let people sink in the rubbish, and when they're up to waist in waste, then they will do something about it.
Unfortunately, that doesn't work. It will be burned, thrown over a wall or something. look at the increase in illegal dumping since bin charges.

It's frustrating how little people are doing, so Charles has a point, but so does Chuck. If you make it so difficult for people to have a low waste society, then you have to shoulder some of the blame too.

by maire Fri Nov 03, 2006 17:45

Charles ,

Apology accepted for your ranting.

The butterfly affect on flooding in Ringaskiddy, does tickle the imagination. However, reality is that flooding happened in 2004, now marked on the recent OPW map on sites that flood. The site , covers the toxic transit area, - where transport lorries containing toxic waste stand, the toxic contents which can leech into the river Lee.

I too am awake at night. I worry about our waste policy and how ill thought out it may be. Why are the prevention methods so hard for this government who keep mentioning sustainability, but would rather penalise people who recycle, and give benefit and absolution to industry who pollute. This is a time of great wealth for our present government , their policies should reflect this, and .they have to be accountable for how they handle it.

I make no apology for asking to be serious about our recycling and managing our waste, I am very serious about my health and welfare and that of the next generation, and I know there is a price to pay for burning our waste which is so off the scale that recycling is the healthy option.

Why not use the carrot?

by Mike Fri Nov 03, 2006 18:10

On a completly Irrelevent side topic I have experience of the Dog warden "service" in Mayo and like every other service provided by that local authority it is pretty woeful.

On a slightly more relevent side topic the Town council in Castlebar is trying to privatise their refuse collection (No doubt when they do the charges will skyrocket)

Back to the main topic of recycling and theres absolutely no reason why recycling cannot be made to be profitable. All it takes is for the Government to reform the (well intentioned but badly thought out) plastic bag levy and apply it to all items which contain
1) Non Recycled material (thus creating a market demand for recycled material)
2) Non Biodegradable packaging (charged by weight)

While this would have the effect of increacing the price of consumer goods it could be offset by
1) Removing PRSI Levies (A tax on work which is particularly regressive in that people on low incomes pay almost as much on these as they pay in PAYE)
2) Cutting VAT on services (rather than goods) to 5% or less (Who knows this might even revive the repair industry which would in itself lead to less waste going to landfill)

There are counties just as "rural" as Mayo (a label which many residents of Ballina, Castlebar, Westport etc resent being branded with) which have "bring centres" IN towns where people can easily get to them. Some even go further and brovide "blue bin" collection services.

by iosaf Sat Nov 04, 2006 21:30

Really it shocks me. Think about it all you fine readers wherever you be - a county which boasts its own international airport which has changed names 5 times - & the only county in northern Europe where the Blessed Virgin Mary & saints James & John appeared can't sort out seperating metal from glass, cardboard from batteries.

Where is the west going? I'll be frank - this chap Councilor Keith Martin deserves support on this one. He's a young, keen & able bloke who proved his long-term political worth when he managed to get elected on an independent ticket & then went over to Labour without either the Labour or Independent voters of Rossport crying foul. He's not for pushing over on a day with only a stilly breeze & we should all keep a close eye to his machinations & machiavellian strategies. But this issue (the recycling thing) isn't really the sort of thing (in my opinion) that will shoot Cllr. K. Martin to the Chavez like Caudillo status some of us worry he craves. This is a decent proposal from ordinary decent folk who are aware of the tonnes of filth & waste their indulgent materialist western lifestyles have built up.

Give him & the dirty people of Mayo your support! Cross party political support! Non-sectarian ecumenical & humanist support! & sort out Mayo's recycling.

stop being muppets & sort out Mayo's recycling!

by Cllr Keith Martin - Westport Town Council Sat Nov 04, 2006 23:13

It should be remembered that Mayo has the lowest rate of recycled household waste at 9% compared with Galway's 50%+ of the six local authorities in the region.

We need to keep encouraging recycling by charging those who dump waste and no charging those who recycle.

by electecus speculus - Westport Anarchist Network Kaos+ Ecological Reform Sun Nov 05, 2006 00:11

Hi Keith. I wonder could ever find out for us - the actual ammount in overall weight in Mayo that is sent to be recycled and the actual ammount that is recycled?
Are the figures in actual ammounts and are these figures really verified by authorities? If not the authorities have no place in charging for these services that are unverified.
Isnt worrying about having no recycling process as such more important than worring about the pricing on the lack of a one?

by Cllr Keith Martin Sun Nov 05, 2006 00:52

It is all available here on this link below

by Terence Sun Nov 05, 2006 02:11

The Bin Tax campaign has been saying for a number of years that the councils would eventually start charging for recycling and lo behold, here we have the first signs of it. A similar thing happened with the disappearing waivers. First we heard about it in Limerick, but soon after the Competition Authority stepped in to say yes indeed waivers were unfair for competition and would have to go. I guess this logic would apply to free travel for OAPs.

But getting back to charging for recycling. This whether intended or not, although I believe it is intended, will kill off any further progress in recycling rates in this country and probably put it into reverse. From the government / private corporations point of view, this will hopefully develop into a crisis of waste, and into the fray will step the white knights of the captains of industry to say they will build for us, even though they have been planned for years -incinerators to sort the problem out. And no doubt they will even say in a sustainable and environmentally friendly way.

The real problem for them is that the 3 Rs -Reduce, Reuse and Recycle -if carried out in the spirit of what it means would result in falling volumes of waste, far less landfill, a smaller waste collection industry, and most omniously a lack of a justificaton for incineration. It of course would just happen to nudge us in the direction of a cleaner and healthier environment and towards a sustainable path. But all these consequences are the enemies of growth and profiteering for in all the steps above, production of excessive package, single use containers, selling of excessive packaging, collection of same via the new privatised waste collection industry and then incineration and landfill, -there is money to be made in every step of the way. And we can't interfere with the business of making money with wooly and grandoise ideas about a cleaner environment.

I think it is instructive that now more than 6 or 7 years ago, an excessive package levy (not to be confused with the plastic bag levy) was successfully defended against by the retail and supermarket sector. And now we see the first attacks in the second chief method to tackle waste, recycling. The people who run capitalism in Ireland -i.e. the government on behalf of capitalism have faithfully and dutifully always carried out their bidding and we can be quite sure they will be just as effective in dismantling recycling in this country and they are wise for they understand the key is to charge people for the privilege and since we are all so pissed off because we get screwed on everything else, I can see most people will just throw their hands up in the air and say why do I bother and make absolutely no attempt to recycle anymore. And this is exactly what the waste industry needs for over the past 2 years or so volumes have fallen and in order to grow those volumes need to rise again and they surely will.

What we have to understand here and it is surely plain to see. Capitalism and a sustainable society are completely at odds with each other.

by naturalista Mon Nov 06, 2006 16:57

There is an obvious connection between charging people directly for waste-disposal, & fly-tipping. Even when free facilities exist, some people will still fly-tip due to ignorance of amenities, distance to tip, or pig-headedness. These facilities need to be provided free at point of service, paid for from rates & taxes, & well-advertised enough for most folk to know of them.