Indymedia Election Blog

by John Ryan - None Thu May 31, 2007 21:18

I got a letter back from F.G to my questions on Shannon.

The only thing they undertook to do was to insist that lists of

all passengers in flights military intellegence or otherwise

should be cross checked by Irish officials.

In other words we will know and have a record of the people

going to Guatanamo well of cours this makes everything better.

by The Solver Thu May 31, 2007 16:58

"Riddle me this. In what constituencies are a) Castleknock and b) Malahide?
Answers on a postcard to Nigel Irritating."

I know the answer.
Castleknock is in Dublin West. Malahide is in Dublin North.
Does that explain the high vote Joe and Clare got.

Now, if only somebody can send the address of the redoubt of the working class that this Nigel Irritating can be found in, so I can forward the answers.

by squeeler the pig - (whom Orwell modelled on Molotov as it happens) Thu May 31, 2007 11:27

We left the queen of the aliens in the chamber. It's been just long enough for Mary Harney to recover. Of course if you had plastered Dublin with the photo of herself and Mc Dowell in the Unicorn restaurant and written dense reviews of the nurses and doctors and pensioner protests she wouldn't have had a chance to lay her evil eggs in the brains of potential host "senior" coalition partners. As usual my wise warnings were disregarded - but it is not too late.

Right wing governments as much as left wing governments love using the phrase "stability" it's one of the trickledown instructions they get from the real rulers on the multi-national corporation boards. The pre-election count analysis of how you "change your regime" has not altered in the last week. But for some reason a clutch of independent TD's seem to think they can pull off a Tony Gregory Haughey deal. You've no chance in a titus andronicus Shakespearian drama of that. In fact you'd be better facilitating a "minority government" for the moment. It's suddenly become quite fashionable and makes perfect political sense to small parties worried about their drop. Because at end as I watch my local political groups reel in shock at abstention which topped 50% for the first time ever - I see them call in their political management experts to ask "who doesn't vote for us?". I can't begin to illustrate the stupidity of such an assignment and waste of part political funds. How can someone who votes and is decided in who they vote for properly discover why someone doesn't vote not only for them but for anyone? It may not be a precise science but nor is Economics or Biotech.

If you facilitate the Harney ambition now - Mc Dowell is coming back.
Got that? Mc Dowell is coming back.

Now ye lot use your influence and stop thinking you don't have any. The results of the last general election in Ireland were very clear. The government won as in all elections but no legislation may be formed without disregarding the clear mandates for change given by the electorate. It is time for the able politicians who without a large party organisation or budget remember whence they've come & exactly whither they wish go. Finish the Job. no more PDs.

by The Riddler Thu May 31, 2007 11:06

This is what an Irish CWI member has written to a British audience.

"There was a solitary partial exception and that was a truly bizarre sight - Richard Boyd Barret of the SWP, got 8% of the vote in the wealthiest constituency in the country running on a liberal ticket with the SWP, socialism and the working class ruthlessly airbrushed from existence."

Riddle me this. In what constituencies are a) Castleknock and b) Malahide?
Answers on a postcard to Nigel Irritating.

by Jolly Red Giant - Socialist Party/CWI Thu May 31, 2007 10:41

of stuff John Throne uploads onto the internet, he must be glued to his computer chair. Some of us have more important things to be doing!

by Observer Thu May 31, 2007 06:50

'Jolly Red Giant' criticises John Throne for communicating his views via a computer. I presume that s/he uploaded their own missive via smoke signals? To be consistent, will the CWI now instruct all their members to revert to manual typewriters and ban this new fangled technology from their offices?

by Jolly Red Giant - Socialist Party/CWI Thu May 31, 2007 00:46

Once again from his position sitting in front of a computer John Throne proceeds to take a swipe at the SP/CWI. He distorts and twists the the position of the SP/CWI and then makes claims about the possibilites of growth for the left that bear absolutely no relationship to what exists on the ground.

1) As John Throne should be aware elections are snapshots of public opinion. Having been canvassing a week before the election I am of the firm opinion that if the election had been held a week earlier the SP/CWI would almost certainly won in Dublin West and had a distinct possibility of winning in Dublin North. We had managed to stem the drift of votes to the LP on the basis of people voting for the LP to get the government out of office. Unfortunately in the last few days of the campaign FF were able to capitalise on the lack of difference between the two political blocks and secure votes in Mulhuddart and Swords on the basis of 'the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know' heading into potentially choppy economic waters. Unfortunately, we were unable in the time frame to counteract this mood. If we had an extra few days in all likelihood we would have managed to also counteract this shift in opinion and succeed in winning in both areas. Yes the failure to win any seats in the election was a setback, but one that the SP/CWI is very capable of bouncing back from. The failure to win seats had absolutely nothing to do with left sectarianism and displays a complete lack of understanding on behalf of John Throne as to the actual situation on the ground during the election.

2) The SP/CWI does not have a go it alone policy. The SP/CWI has a policy of helping working class people to fight for their rights. The SP/CWI recognises the need for the building of a mass left party among the working class. This is not, and indeed cannot, be a regroupment of a number of small left organisations but a genuine movement involving workers in struggle in trade unions and communities.

3) I would ask John Throne which other left and activist groups have shown they have a base by the votes they won?

In most cases their votes actually decreased from the local elections (as in the case of Joan Collins and John O'Neill) or were based on a political programme that could not really be described as left wing (as in the case of PBP/SWP and Catherine Connolly).

Secondly, a vote at election time does not indicate a basis of support beyond actually making the effort to mark a ballot paper. In fact in most areas the actual layer of activists is quite small, substantially less than what the actual vote would indicate. There is no indication that any of these votes indicate any substantial base or potential. Even the base of the SP/CWI in Dublin West and Dublin North is by and large an electoral base although it is significantly more solid than the electoral bases of others.

John Throne says "The SP boasts (incorrectly) that it was the only Party that stood on a socialist program". Could John please indicate which other 'Party' stood on a socialist programme? Indeed which individual candidates stood on a socialist programme?

John Throne further claims "I also believe that the struggle for a workers party can be taken forward in a progressive manner and in a way which takes the workers struggle forward on an anti capitalist fight to win program. Within this the SP and other Revolutionary Socialist organizations can put forward their program".

By saying this does John suggest that the SP and others should not put forward a socialist programme publically but merely confine the campaign for a socialist programme to within this (yet to be defined) anti-capitalist workers struggle. This appears to me to be the position of the SWP (to quote Rory Hearne "mentioning socialism will lose us votes"). This is not a position I, as a socialist, could possibly support.

by John Throne. - Labors Militant Voice. Wed May 30, 2007 20:46 loughfinn at aol dot com

I have just read Kevin McLaughlin's piece on behalf of the SP where he puts the Party's position on their election setbacks. Earlier on in this blog SP members said that their party made no mistakes and that their would be no change in policy and that anybody who was a genuine socialist should join the SP. Kevin could have just let this stand as the Party's statement. His position is the same only it takes him longer to say it. His position can be reduced to this: Everything was the fault of the objective situation and the rigging of boundaries by the state. The SP made no mistakes and all genuine socialists should now join the SP.

I will not repeat the points I have made in recent posts about the mistaken go it alone policy of the SP. But I would ask this. Does the SP wish to be taken seriously when it has nothing at all to say to the supporters of the various left and activist groups who have shown they have a base by the votes they won. Whether these groups won seats or not they have shown they have some base and potential. McLaughlin's statement says that the SP will make no approach to these and only looks to the next elections and hopes that by then the objective situation will be better and the state will not gerrymander the boundaries.

This is a negative left sectarian position. The setbacks for the left in the elections mean that there can now be a better chance than before for taking steps towards united front work both on the ground and on the electoral area. Campaigning for a workers party also can take place on more fertile grounds.

The SP boasts (incorrectly) that it was the only Party that stood on a socialist program. I believe the SP should be steadfast in standing for its socialist program. However I also believe that the struggle for a workers party can be taken forward in a progressive manner and in a way which takes the workers struggle forward on an anti capitalist fight to win program. Within this the SP and other Revolutionary Socialist organizations can put forward their program.

John Throne.

by Guido Fawkes Tue May 29, 2007 11:21

While the SWP front may have stood on a non-socialist basis, John O Neill of the ISN didn't. The SP weren't alone in standing on a socialist ticket.

by Marlboro Man Tue May 29, 2007 09:46

SP member makes valid and necessary contributions. You just don't like what he has to say.

The point is the SP where only only Left wing organisation running on a platform of non-coalitionism. It was this very same subject that damaged Labour before during and after the Mullingar accord and caused ruptures within the party that damaged votes in many constituencies.

As for RBB, very little of his vote was a socialist vote, another valid point from SP Memebr that you completely overlooked. RBB concealed his SWP connections and ran on a PB4P ticket. He looks, talks, walks like the people of DunL and knew that any mention of radical socialism or a workers revolution would sink him.

At least Joe Higgins stood by his principles and set forth his stall.

by Non SP member Mon May 28, 2007 22:54

"The SP made no mistakes in its electoral strategy. The SP will not be getting involved in any left alliances for the foreseable future. End of discussion Throne!"

More evidence for those who believe that our regular poster "SP Member" is actually a joker trying to make the Socialist Party look ridiculous ... nobody could actually be that shrill and intolerant, surely?

by SP member Mon May 28, 2007 20:03

The SP made no mistakes in its electoral strategy. The SP will not be getting involved in any left alliances for the foreseable future. End of discussion Throne!

To those going on about Boyd Barrett's vote. This was not a left vote it was a vote mainly from the middle class for a liberal candidate, who didn't stand on a left programme and completely hide his real politics.

by leftie Mon May 28, 2007 19:33

i have a leaflet in my hand that says " the people before profit alliance is made up of socialists, Republicans Anti-bin tax campaigners and community activists.

by Dorothy Gale Mon May 28, 2007 19:20

Sorry but I cannot take you seriously. For someone who is supposedly so naive about left politics you know quite a lot. I wonder how often "PBPA" canvassers revealed their real SWP identity on the doorstep! Why then did they refuse to even mention reformist socialism in their manifestos?

Going on the PBPA posters and programme thheir was no reason for anyone to suspect they were socialists. As for Left Unity, it would take a long time to list all of the campaigns the SWP have destroyed or tried to destroy. Just recently they did their best to split Shell 2 Sea. They turned the IAWM into a hollow shell and used it as an election platform for RBB.

by Eimear F Mon May 28, 2007 18:31

Thanks for varied responses, albeit rather vague. I have only understood that the SWP have reportedly used "dictatorial tactics" in the past at whatever forum...but surely because a couple of decisions don't go your way..you don't publicly slate them on this forum and at what cost??

The trick is to portray UNITY, support and lend strength to all campaigns.
Unfortunately,in every walk of life decisions will be taken that you won't agree with but at least can be tried, evaluated and then revised??

For any prudent political mind, this is inevitable in whatever Party, Alliance etc and should this forum continue to illustrate the so called differences which are academic at this stage, we can look forward to plenty of right wing landslides.

Political tactics seem to be the main contention for the Left's advancement and if SWP candidates did not put their political print, i.e Membership of SWP on their leaflets,posters etc it is simple to surmise the exercise at hand:i.e.LEFT UNITY and as far as I can see so far, they are the only ones working to that end...
Correct if wrong..

I was canvassed by their team and membership of the SWP was the first point mentioned, so again I am not clear on why people believe it has been posed underhandedly?
This is no secret but possibly a prudent and wise poltical "tactic" to try and pull in other Left Wing Activists who are possibly floating considering all this division. Surely we all use tactics to get to whatever point we need to be in life....for a greater good!!

I have utmost respect and admiration for all socialist candidates, SP and SWP alike who have strongly demonstrated a possibility for a huge base of very successful grassroot and electoral victories, despite the current politcal climate, if it is possible to present a united front/ alternative.

by Statto Mon May 28, 2007 16:04

"RBB pulls off the highest left vote in the country absolutely amazing."

leftie, you've a bit to learn about politics and stats. Go to any election source today and you will see that the highest votes aren't calculated on the actual number 1s but on percentage vote.
RBB's 8+% is equivalent to Clare Daly's result.
But Joe Higgins and Seamus Healy's 14+% are actually the leading left votes in the country that is of course if you don't count Bertie's 36+% vote.

by leftie - none Mon May 28, 2007 15:56

I find it quite funny to read you comments, I mean like surely we on the left can get along as one solid alliance rather than bitch about people, if we don't I'm afraid that there will never be a strong enough left alliance in Ireland. As far as RBB goes, he had done a huge amount off work in DLR and he should be credited for it, he didn't pull it out off a hat he went out a worked hard. DLR has always being a right-wing area, and RBB pulls off the highest left vote in the country absolutely amazing. Fair play to him and all his team as I live in the area and have seen the hard work they put in. If all this baby bitching goes no we well never get anywhere

by W. Finnerty. Mon May 28, 2007 14:23

I've seen a number of reports very recently where Enda Kenny and Bertie Ahern have both stated very strongly that, under absolutely no circumstances apparently, would either of them consider any form of coalition with Sein Fein.

Unfortunately, neither of these two party leaders have given any reason at all (that I know of) for the extremely hard line they are taking with regard to the four Sein Fein elected representatives in question, who were DEMOCRATICALLY elected last Thursday.

The four Sein Fein TDs haven't ALL been convicted of child-molesting or anything like that, have they?

Why, in particular, is Enda Kenny unnecessarily turning his back on this perfectly legal option: even though these four TDs could obviously, and very easily, play a crucial role in the formation of a completely fresh government that would rid this country of the incurably corrupt, stale, and socially destructive Fianna Fail "junta": before they launch out on yet another five years of "stuffing" the living daylights out of everyone outside of their own psychological incestuous clique.

"Let the person among you who is without fault throw the first stone."

by Malcolm X - Church of Marx Mon May 28, 2007 13:34

let's not become dispirited.
yes it is a blow that Joe Higgins lost his seat. independent left candidates were not united on class political issues. after all it is they who have become the new middle class in the last 10 years. with their rich allies have voted the neo liberal conservative agenda

we know see the reality the noveau rich /middle class couldn't give a dam about people who are politically ,economically socially alienated in Ireland 2007.

Higgins, had the conviction of class politics not to be taken in by the agenda of Harney Mc Dowell.
alone voice. he pointed the finger at Harney for encouraging and supporting the exploitation of people from Turkey in Gama construction. he was confident and believed in political class struggle

Mc Dowell/Pds smashed good riddance. where do the left in politics go from here.
the class political issue is still with us. all the bullshit of Rabbitte his cohorts about people been afraid of change. is a insult to people.

by Dorothy Gale Mon May 28, 2007 13:10

"Over 5000 people voted for RBB as a socialist within an alliance. Would you stop them being part of the new left too?"

There was no mention of socialism from RBB or the PBPA. He ran on a vague populist programme. If they are not prepared to stand as openly left candidates then why should we regard them as part of the Left?

The PBPA refused to take a position on a Womans Right To Choose. They were afraid it might cost them votes.

The Socialist Party stood on a socialist platform, nobody was in any doubt about their real politics. The SP even included a section in their manifesto supporting a womans right to have an abortion in Ireland.

There. Now look what you've done: I'm supporting the SP! Next I'll be quoting Trotsky.

by Daf Mon May 28, 2007 13:04

I went along to the first People Before Profit meetings. I asked questions about the structure of the organisation, what its mission would be, how we could overcome the problems of opportunism and mistrust that had bogged down their previous fronts. I didn't get answers I got shouted at. It happens me every time I attend a meeting of an SWP front. I ask a question which I feel is valid. Nobody answers it and people start shouting at me. Is it unreasonable of me therefore to be cynical about their methods and motivations?

by Dub Mon May 28, 2007 13:01

If you look at transfers you would see Daly was getting more. If it were a 5 seater more transfers would be freed up due to lower quota and would benefit Daly. eg. in a 5 seater kennedy would have a 4% surplus much of which would go to Daly due to Swords vote. even with the national squeeze I think if constituencies were done properly SP could have got 2 seats. Although main reason for loss of SF vote, SP vote, GP vote, Ind vote is the national swing. Does not necessarily mean people are not open to smaller parties.

by Miriam Cotton Mon May 28, 2007 12:57

...about Ireland when a guy like this:

http://www.jackiehealyrae.com/

gets to be a 'kingmaker'. Ever been to Kilgarvan? It's a small town near Kenmare - it's plastered in pictures and posters of Healy Rae - and that's outside of election time. Large cardboard cutouts of him are stuck up at the side of the road on the way into town. The family businesses dominate with enormous signs and banners everywhere - with no regard either for their ugliness or the feelings of other people who might not want to have Healy Rae shoved in their faces at every turn. They guy is a joke and Ahern knows it - it's a monumental 'fuck off' to the electorate that he looks likely to choose the likes of Healy Rae and the now even runtier PDs to make up his majority. Ahern can be under no illusion that the electorate hates the PDs. So much for listening to the people.

IBEC of course will be demanding a PD element and it seems Ahern has not yet managed to shake off that yoke - if he ever wanted to.

by Joe - WSM - personal cap Mon May 28, 2007 12:47

'indymediaweary' you'd be a whole lot more convincing if the SWP learnt the lesson of the rest of the political left and started to encourage its member to openly post to indymedia as SWP members rather than the silly pseudo sock puppeting you use above.

by indymediaweary Mon May 28, 2007 12:34

To Daf- just wondering if you have noted who exactly has been calling for left unity over the past two years. Might it have been the swp at a conference in the atgwu last year, to which they invited all of us on the left? It certainly does suit some people to ignore this. And now that the rest of you have finally seen the light you want to push the swp aside. I just don't get that
Over 5000 people voted for RBB as a socialist within an alliance. Would you stop them being part of the new left too?
Look at France- this is what happens when the left can't get their sh*t together and they just keep fighting among themselves. Sound familiar? We need to get real! And Fight the real enemies!

To Eimear- judge for yourself from your own experiences. There's alot of urban myths surounding the swp. I find that Indymedia gossip is never a good basis for forming opinions. That the swp have strong views is not in question but I believe they are as entitled as anyone else to argue for things they believe in. Don't think that makes them 'dictatorial'.

by gníomhaí Mon May 28, 2007 11:48

So, tá an toghchán thart agus is beag nár d'athraigh faic. Rath ollmhór a bhí ag FF is FG, ach ar a laghad theip ar na PDs Michael McDowell a fháil isteach arís. Caithfidh muid bheith sásta le 'Schadenfreude' mar gheall ar McDowell.

Theip go h-iomlán ar páirtithe na heite chlé a n-ionadaíocht a méadú sa Dáil. Cén chaoi go d'eirigh go geal le na páirtithe móra? I mo bhariúl, chuir an díospóireacht teilifíse go mór leis. Tá cursaí polaitiúla ag eirigh mar i SAM. Braitheann chuile short ar phearsantacht na polaiteoirí agus ar dospóireacht amháin ar an teilifís. Ba chór go mbeadh níos mó díospóireachtaí a bheith ann, ach nílim cinnte an í an teilifís an meán is fearr.
Cén fáth nár tharla an díospóireacht leis na ceannairí uilig ag an am céanna? Bheadh sraith díospóireachta ar na polaisithe difriúla suimiúl agus tairbheach chomh maith. Mar a tharla sé, bhí sé mar a bheadh ach rogha idir Bhertie agus Enda amháin........

Ó bhuel, faigheann muid an rialtas atá tuillte againn........

by Realist Mon May 28, 2007 11:30

Brendan Ryan finished ahead of Clare. Even in a five seater, she wouldn't have got elected. And I don't think Mick Murphy would have got elected even if they had have introduced a six seater. No doubting Joe would have been elected. Let's stick to objectivity.

by Dub Mon May 28, 2007 10:13

If you look at results you will see that Joe Higgins and Clare Daly would have been elected if constituencies were same population ratio as outlined in Constitution (or even in other constituencies in election, look at Cork and Dún Laoghiare). As a sympathiser of the SP I think they did very well and their support among working class people was expressed well even though there was a "squeeze" on all the Parties in last week of campaign. If John Throne liven in Ireland he would realise that. I think SWP will be boosted by RBB preformance, although he was assisted by constituency population ratio and his dropping of "harder" politics and his party label. The other candidates in the "Alliance" did not do so well, except those that were associated with Bin Tax camapign.

The real need for the left is not to ditch socialism or it's politics PBPA-style, rather the need is to further building roots in communities. Throne's last posting was odd and out of touch. No reason why SP can't get Joe re-elected and maybe even Clare Daly and Mick Murphy in next time. I don't think it unrealistic to say that in 31st Dail SP could have 3 TDs, a couple of left independents and even RBB (if constituency revision doesn't leave him shafted)

by Observer Mon May 28, 2007 09:58

Good argument there, Jolly Red Giant - you really get into the meat of the issues, thoroughly analyse the position you are denouncing, and explain yourself very clearly. Well done!

Incidentally, in terms of knowing what John Throne was going to say, I usually know what the SP are going to say before they do as well. I am not alone in this. Back in the days when Militant was a weekly in Britain and threatening to go daily, some wag pointed out that due to the unvarying nature of its contents, you might like to consider an annual instead. Your current publications are little different.

by Jolly Red Giant - Socialist Party/CWI Mon May 28, 2007 09:48

Someone actually commented on Friday evening - how long would it take for John Throne to post on indymedia about the election result. The general consensus was that you would have it up by Saturday evening, so you're a day late. We also knew exactly what you would say and to be honest it bears absolutely no relationship to the situation on the ground in Ireland.

by V Mon May 28, 2007 09:39

"A majority held in restraint by constitutional checks and limitations is the only true soverign of a free people. Whoever rejects it does, of necessity, fly to anarchy or despotism."

(Abraham Lincoln, 16th US President 1861-65)

by W. Finnerty. Mon May 28, 2007 08:37

The deluded McDowell: Bilderberg patriot, and Bunreacht traitor.

Bilderberg: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum...ell=1

Bunreacht: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=McDowell%2C+Bunrea...earch

What happens now I wonder to all the dodgy and extremely doubtful legislation produced by barrister Michael McDowell during the past 10 years or so: i.e. during the time he spent as Attorney General and Minister for Justice?

Will it be falsely treated as "constitutional" by the entire legal profession, or will the legal profession have the decency to arrange for it to be thoroughly checked by Judicial Review, the Supreme Court, or whatever: BEFORE they use it court, or rely on it again in any way for the future?

by John Throne - Labor's Militant Voice. Mon May 28, 2007 00:40 loughfinn at aol dot com

Comrades of the SP every event has a positive side to it. The defeat of Joe H and your inability to win any other seats is very negative. However there is an opportunity here for the SP and the left in general. You now have the chance to open up a serious and fully democratic discussion about your election strategy. Not just your election strategy over the past couple of months but over the past years. Your strategy has been to run your own candidates, to give no support to the struggle to build united front work on the electoral area, nor to build a workers party. Your entire emphasis as I say was to get Joe re-elected, to get Clare elected, to increase the electoral base of your two other candidates and in this way put yourself in a position on the left which could not be challenged by any other left group.

Comrades of the SP the first lesson you have to draw is that this strategy has failed. You now have no seats in the Dail. You are further back than before the elections. Your strategy of the past years has not worked. All the very good work you have done in all the struggles on the ground has not paid off in the electoral area. This failure has to be discussed. It cannot all be blamed on the objective situation. The lesson of your defeats has to be drawn. Comrades your approach to this election has not worked.

I would suggest that instead of your go it alone strategy over the past years you should have been putting resources into building unity with other left groups and activists around the idea of united left unity in the coming election and the struggle to build a worker's party. I suggest that this would have strengthened the SP and its candidates as you would have been seen as taking the lead for unity of the left and activist movement. This would have also strengthened the other left activist forces as it would have added strength to this general initiative and to the left in general.

I do not ignore that there are left groups which are left sectarian. I believe as I have said that the SP itself is left sectarian. However this is not confined to the SP. I believe that as mentioned by others in the blog the SWP has also shown itself to be left sectarianism, for example in the elections where it refused to stand down where other more rooted and stronger candidates had a base. The SWP's left sectarianism has also been shown in united front campaigns such as the anti war and other areas. This should not be ignored. But what should be the attitude to the SWP's left sectarianism. Unfortunately the SP and also some other groups and individuals use the left sectarianism of the SWP as an excuse for their own left sectarianism.

Instead of this, while continuing with its orientation to the working class and its struggles, the SP should identify left sectarianism for what it is and how it damages the working class. From this the SP should then openly explain its own mistakes in this regard. This would strengthen the SP very considerably. From this position the SP could then put resources into the struggle for united front activity not only in the day to day struggles on the ground but also in the electoral area and the struggle for a workers party. And from this position could then take up the SWP and its left sectarianism in a way that would be seen as genuine and not just scoring points against the SWP and actually increasing left sectarianism. This approach would weaken left sectarianism in general and not increase it as one group attacked the other.

Comrades I am worried by the tenor of the few posts on this blog from SP members as there seems to be no intention of seriously analyzing the results of the election and their own defeats. It is not sufficient to blame all on the objective situation. Sure the economic growth and other factors have had an affect. But not to deal with the strategy and tactics of the subjective factor itself would be to abdicate your responsibility. I hope that the SP does not come out of these defeats concluding it made no mistakes at all and they should continue on their present path with no changes or adjustments for the next years up until the next election.

John Throne.

by bertie Sun May 27, 2007 19:57

the best thing that could happen is that the greens would dissapear, if bertie has any sense he will steer well clear of sergent.
He has a persona that exudes arrogance, beverly (ff) maybe on the verge of bankruptcy, but if she joins with bertie you can be sure that issiue will be handled in the near future (FF has many friends with millions "shell being one").
j healy rea is FF, and if he were to retire ff would gain his seat in a byelection no problem, so why bother with the greens?

by billy idle Sun May 27, 2007 19:43

If I were the greens i would be very wary of going into governement with the FFers. There are some choppy economic waters ahead for this country. In five years time the mood of the nation could be very different with a very different set of economic circumstances. History has shown us time and time again when FF are in a coalition goverment and things go wrong it is always the smaller party that gets hammered by the electorate. We've seen it with labour and now with the PDs. Its as if FF played no hand, act or part in any of these coalitions.

If the greens take the plunge and go in with FF and things don't work out i can see them going the way of the PDs, wiped out and more than likely never to return.

by NO'B Sun May 27, 2007 19:29

Bertie will do any deal necessary to retain power & he needs stable government. The Greens don't want an early election and they like the smell of power. The way Trevor and & Co. are speaking its obvious they are gagging to do a deal. FF will utter some meaningless platitudes about the Environment but in reality it will mean nothing. Trev will be minister for Env, Gormley probably Min Education with Cuffe & Ryan as Mins/State.

Interestingly the Greens are the only party in the Dail who openly support domestic water charges and they want the charges to be based on usage regardless of income. Don't be suprised if part of the Greens asking price is the introduction of Domestic Water Rates. FF will love it but blame it on the Greens.

by billy idle Sun May 27, 2007 19:26

The man who calls himself Bertie should be ashamed of himself. Your not a true FFer, for if you were, you would follow FF no matter who they did a deal with which could include George Bush, Mugabe, Saddam Hussein or the Devil himself.

by bertie Sun May 27, 2007 19:11

I hope bertie stays well away from the greens, if he does s deal with them I for one will Never vote FF again

by GREENSPIN Sun May 27, 2007 18:10

Green TDs fail to impress
Contrary to the Green Party’s post-election spin (see http://www.greenparty.ie/en/news/latest_news/green_part...tions) most of the sitting Green TDs have lost percentage of first preferences votes. This clearly shows that the Greens (with the exception of Eamon Ryan) have failed to impress as elected TDs

Trevor Sargent TD, Party Leader. Dublin North
Portfolios: Taoiseach & Northern Ireland, Gaeltacht, Agriculture and Food.
2002: 16.60%
2007: 13.13% DOWN

John Gormley TD, Cathaoirleach. Dublin South East
Portfolios: Foreign Affairs, Defence, Health & Children
2002: 16.23%
2007: 13.84% DOWN

Paul Gogarty TD. Dublin Mid-West
Portfolios: Arts, Sport & Tourism, Education & Science
2002: 12.33%
2007: 10.83% DOWN

Ciaran Cuffe TD. Dun Laoghaire
Portfolio: Justice, Equality & Law Reform, Local Government and Environment.
2002: 9.33%
2007: 7.72% DOWN

Dan Boyle TD. Cork South Central
Portfolios: Finance, Social & Family Affairs, Community, Rural Development, The Islands.
2002: 8.96%
2007: 8.3% DOWN AND OUT

Eamon Ryan TD. Dublin South
Portfolios: Transport, Enterprise, Trade & Employment, Marine & Natural Resources & Communications
2002: 9.45%
2007: 11.06% UP

by scorchio Sun May 27, 2007 15:32

If you've the basis of X-cell or any copyleft equivalent you too could help fill in the information on this page :- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_the_30th_D%C...%A1il
How much of our most cherished opinions have made it past the technical grouping or need to plonk one's ample arse upon a chair? I'd suggest the formation of a new party of indepedent and fringe parties in Ireland. We have long ago seen a need amongst us for an obesity party. I said so before and was well told off for it.
anymore joycean body fascism on your part mc d and you're dogfood But here I am still using an election blog to blog on an election. Who will rule my local Barcelona council? I'm rabiting on, ribiding, gurgling, participating, taking the piss, conscious flowing, fighting cops, making ends meet, settling down, looking for a job, scraping the rent, winning my cases, digging up my bones, & not voting. Anarchists are a very well-mannered bunch & wouldn't like to spoil the election buzz.

I know the craft of governance & am eager that yet fresher types be involved.

I don't wish to alarm ye in far far away Eire land as Katalalalaland does its local council election but we left the Queen behind on the 30th Dail results. She's still in the chamber. I will now ping the nurses - oh shit. If i wasn't a dial-up connection I'd ping the nurses. But I can't. When this site started and all the usual suspects argued about the first technical grouping and Lowry and stuff, many of us were on dial-up connections. We used to squeeze our little messages through really slow modems and hope they'd take effect - further down the random chain of ideas where written words that get read go.

It's not joycean - it's not internet addiction. it's not Punch and Judy without Judy -
the Queen of the aliens is still in the Dail. The Progressive Democrats are neither essential nor desirable to our republic. To take out Alien Queens in good SciFi tradition you need a Predator but @ some stage you have to finish the job yourselves.

by Joker - SP Sun May 27, 2007 15:03 info at socialistparty dot net

Actually, anyone wanna buy one? They now cost E70,000 - what joes seat was worth a year.

Or, if ya have a couple of grand lying around and wanna get rid of it, we'll be happy to take it ;-)

Maybe we should rob us a bank... (northern one maybe)

by Daf Sun May 27, 2007 14:57

True there may be no electoral path to Socialism but elections offer an opportunity to put across a message and let people know that there is an alternative. For example WSM may not believe in participating in elections but even they use this time to put their message across to the people. I personally feel that there is something to be gained through participating. It provides a chance to come in to contact with disillusioned voters and turn them onto activists. Now Anarchists love to complain about Trotsyists selling papers but a large source of funding for the SP was the fact that Joe Higgins lived on a worker's salary and donated the rest of his income back into the party and into campaigns. With his contribution gone I hope you won't mind if we have to push a bit harder when it comes to selling papers ;-)

by Sin Ick Sun May 27, 2007 13:57

People always talk about that concept on this site - but in this country, does it actually mean anything?
What if people decide they are not interested in a never ending stream of meetings and assemblies, and are happy for other people to do it for them?
And at what point does your "grassroots" democracy achieve legitimacy?
e.g. lets say 200 people show up at a meeting to stop the Erris Pipeline being built, and decide via hand-waggling consensus that a blockade will take place. Yet another 800 people, from the area, do not show up to the meeting.
Are the opinions of the 200 valid? Is the decision taken there supposed to reflect the entire community?
Do anarchists really expect society to develop like this with meetings and assemblies, when only two-thirds of the country come out once every five years to cast a vote? The mere thought of having to drag my ass to a neighbourhood meeting every week to decide small inconsequential shit makes me shiver. Especially with the arseholes living around here.

by bev Sun May 27, 2007 12:59

When Ms Flynn was asked if she would be prepared to prop up a Fianna Fáil-led coalition she indicated that she would jump at the chance.

"I have no intention of sitting on the fence - if an opportunity presents itself I'd be delighted to take up on that and whatever I can do for the people of Mayo," she said.
http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhkfcwojausn/

by jd Sun May 27, 2007 12:34

I've been trying to figure out the results in my own constituency from the RTE election site. I think you'd need a degree in computer science to work out how to use it.

by Virtual warrior Sun May 27, 2007 11:58

Wait for the next election, spend all your time energy and money building up anothe rpersonality so he/she can get a run at a seat or accept that there is noe electoral road to socialism and concentrate instead on building politics in our class that advocates self organisation, grassroots participative democracy and direct action. Electoral reformism or anarchism? Make the choice

by Daf Sun May 27, 2007 11:48

Firstly to Eimear. You are right it can be disheartening to see what one can perceive as sectarianism amongst left wing groups. But while many groups can differ in their opinion but still work together the SWP have had a habit of pushing their own agendas at the expense of the campaigns they are involved in. I feel that People Before Profit was not a democratic organisation and should not form the basis of any future mass worker's party. There are a litany of offences I could list off but at this point we need to be looking for a basis of unity rather than encouraging further division. If the SWP want to be part of a united left then I hope they can stop behaving in a divisive manner.

To Sean- I fail to see your point. All of the Socialists I know of who were running in this election were campaigning on such issues as health, education, estate management fees, stealth taxes, public transport and many other issues which are of massive relevance to the people of Ireland.
You are correct that such things as abortion and immigration are divisive issues but I don't think Irish people are as ignorant as you credit them with being. There is a massive part of the Irish people who are pro choice and are not anti-immigration. If immigration lost support for Socialists then why didn't this support go to the Immigration control platform? When it comes to immigration the working class are far more progressive than the middle classes as the working class have migrants as co-workers, neighbours, class mates etc.

On the issue of Banks and the EU you are so far off the mark it is unbelievable. The Socialist Party as well as many other groups are explicit about taking the economy out of the hands of bankers. It is a crucial step in freeing people from the tyranny of capitalism that the banks should be taken into democratic working class control. Groups on the left have always opposed the pro business, pro Imperialist EU. I feel the left have been consistent on both of these issues you raise.

by mistaking Sun May 27, 2007 11:46

dont know why they were saying cherrio to the pd's, the pd party will form part of the next gov, SF or PFP will not!

by LF Sun May 27, 2007 11:33

People Before Profit and Sinn Fein supporters together were chanting Cherrio for McDowell, and giving the Pds a hard time. "Left Unity!"

by Squirrel Sun May 27, 2007 11:21

To Eimear F,

your questions about the SWP are very important ones for the left to deal with. I too am comparatively new to left wing activism and thought the same as you having worked with members of the SWP on alot of issues and found them at times to be brilliant activists with clear minds for a campaign and also with alot of money to spend.

However problems inevitably arise with them after a time. They inevitably become very dictatorial in how they run their own campaigns and the ones they are involved with in conjunction with other groups. Ask anyone involved with Dublin Shell to Sea about how they tried to dictate tactics to them and when they failed they bypassed the dublin group and went to local people to try to influence them in an at best disingenuous manner. Ask people involved with the Irish Anti War Movement how they made up branches in parts of the country that never existed before and used them to send delegates to the meeting that elected the committee, hence Richard Boyd barret is chairman. Loads left that group after that.

You can ignore that last paragraph if you wish but you cannot ignore the fact that both Rory Hearn and RBB failed to mention the fact they were members of the SWP in any of their election websites, leaflets or posters and were not listed as this on the ballot. It is this kind deliberate omission and dishonesty that repulses people on the left. It also disillusions many new left activists who become involved with the SWP and learn the truth about them. They then tar all lefty's with the same brush.

I am an independent activist and I'm happy to work with people of all groups on the left Socialist party, Sinn Fein, Labour, WSM etc...

I run a mile when I see an SWP front which is what People Before Profit is, Which is what Another Europe is Possible was which is what Globalise Resistance was etc.............

When I see how the SWP carries out its business its not hard to understand how communism in Russia turned out the way it did.

Best of luck to Eimear and I hope you don't see people knocking SWP as division on the left because the majority of groups/parties are happy to work with each other just not the SWP.

by bemused Sun May 27, 2007 08:53

coolj your claim that (Obviously people in Mayo went with Kenny and FG, which unfortunatly meant Cowley had little chance in the end.)

To borrow a quote from Enda Kenny "dream on baby", the FF and IND candidate who were elected were hardly going to aid in getting a Mayo Taoiseach.
Cowley is on the record as stating "if elected he would support Kenny as Taoiseach " so that excuse is just wrong.
Gerry Adams said yesterday in a radio interview in Donegal (Inishowen Community Radio ) that he believes their opposition to the corrib project had cost them seats throughout the country.
FG got 55% of the votes in mayo, that left 45% of which Cowley got 4% that is less than one in ten of the people that didn't vote for a FG mayo Taoiseach .
and it is 1 in 25 of the people of mayo and your protesting partner "Peter Enright" didn't even get 1%. now in a democracy that is a very clear message to S2S and its supporters. (go away). http://www.electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=200...s=172

by Brian Sun May 27, 2007 05:20

I agree Sean but I just wonder about the overall result all the same. Like does anybody out there think that the result is a bit surprising? Actually one online exit poll, of 366 individual votes, threw up these percentages which are reasonably accurate with the sole exception of the FF vote:

FG 23.2
FF 21.3
LAB 20.2
Green 12.3
SF 10.6
Others 7.1
PD 5.2
(http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=21514&postdays=0...t=456)

I appreciate that there is a lot of scrutiny of the electoral system as regards at the polling booths and at the count centres but I don't know if there is much attention paid to what happens to the ballot boxes when they are held overnight before the count the following morning. Also I'd say postal voting - which some say is used very fraudalently in the UK - and the question of the register are also open to abuse. You never know, I notice too that the Taoiseach mentioned again how he is against opinion polls being taken in the run up to the vote, actually he was echoing what John Gormley had said earlier, and this would certainly be on the agenda of anybody trying to manipulate the vote. I just cannot see this big swing to FF in the final few days, I don't really think they are that popular, I guess maybe I'm wrong...emm.......

Im not saying that X or Y of the smaller parties should have got a much bigger vote I just think that Fianna Fail are just not that popular right now, among all shades of opinion. You'd think there'd be considerable dissolusionment on a whole pile of issues like even water as Alannis says above: "People vote far-fetched...
The water has been turned off at the count centre where the minister of the environment's votes are being counted amid fears of contamination.
Nevertheless, Minister Roche is expected to be returned to office.
If this was fiction, people would say it was unbelievable. "

I think a lot of people feel that way, just on the simple issues. Yet they all tripped over themselves to vote them back in with a ringing endorsement in the last few days?

Anyway this is a big issue all across the world as you can see from these comments by Wayne Madsen on the French elections:
"As a further indication that Sarkozy's neo-con media friends, especially those at Le Figaro, are skewing the opinion polls, Sarkozy is still running ahead of Royal although a clear majority of centrist candidate Francois Bayrou's supporters are favoring Royal in the May 6 run-off and far right-wing candidate Jean-Marie Le Pen has urged his supporters to abstain in the run-off. Bayrou said that he will not vote for Sarkozy. The real political math of French Left + majority of Bayrou supporters and majority abstentions by Le Pean supporters equals no significant net gain for Sarkozy in the second round and should reflect a sizeable jump in the numbers for Royal. As with the U.S. and Mexican presidential elections, the polls are being artificially fixed to reflect the upcoming skewed exit polls, a major component of the neo-cons' main contrivance to maintain political control -- "election engineering."

IPSOS, the Paris-based marketing firm that sits at the core of most reported French presidential election polls, including those of the Associated Press, owns some 40 market research and opinion companies around the world, including the United Kingdom's MORI. It has a vested interest in the election of the extreme pro-business Sarkozy."
(http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/2007_04130506.php)

"The French election, from the start, has been plagued by election fraud -- bogus polling data, false exit polls, and electronic voting machine and machine counting irregularities were hallmarks of the first presidential election round.......Turnout in the French election was 85 percent. With large turnouts historically favoring the left in France, the exit polling and actual polling were at odds with the turnout -- an indication of massive election fraud.

"Similar polling irregularities were experienced in recent elections in Scotland, Wales, and England. In Scotland, 100,000 ballots, thought to mostly be cast for the pro-independence Scottish National Party, were declared "spoiled" in Scotland's election. That "glitch" cost the Scottish Nationalists a larger majority in the Scottish Parliament. Irregularities in Wales and England similarly affected larger margins for Welsh and Cornish nationalists. As the Bretons and Corsicans will soon discover with Sarkozy, regional nationalism is anathema to the globalist neo-con agenda, particularly the international bankers who want strong centralized control and minimal devolution of power to local and regional governments.

The electoral malfeasance of neo-cons in manipulating elections in France, Britain, Canada, the United States, Italy, Australia, Peru, Costa Rica, Mexico, and other countries will remain a problem until the people, acting through the power of progressive, anti-globalist, and anti-capitalist governments, seize control, via whatever means necessary, of the media, the voting and vote counting process, and the opinion polling mechanisms."(http://www.waynemadsenreport.com)

To be honest I wouldn't put it past them.......

by IKP Sun May 27, 2007 03:50

The only thing I cared about in this election was that the terrorists, widow torturers, child killers and Garda murderers of the IRA would be rejected by the electorate. My hopes were not in vain. IRA scum aren't wanted here. Got the message? Good, now fuck off.

by Sean Sun May 27, 2007 02:50

"Presenting a clear, left-wing voice and offering the Irish electorate a coherent, serious possibility of living in a modern, socialist democracy has yet to be tried."

Perhaps the major failure of the left is that they spend so much time trying to shove outdated and scientifically precise ideology down people's throats that they've lost touch with people on the ground.

The majority of people in this country don't want abortion legalised (it has been rejected in several referenda), and yet the left spend an untold amount of time trying to push hard case scenarios to pull on people's heart strings (democracy how are ya).

The overwhelming majority of people are concerned about immigration levels since the EU accession in May 2004, and yet the left want even higher levels of immigration in the event that the new arrivals - codded by IBEC and greedy employers - will become their new voter "base".

People are also the victims of manipulation by out-of-control banks, who are pushing high mortgages, promoting debt and working completely independent of the State with their minds firmly on profit. But have the left vowed to reign in the banks? No.

Will the left get us out of the EU, away from the predatory moves of the European Central Bank, and away from the dictatorial policies of the Barroso (yes, Barroso the "ex"-Maoist) Commission? If they intend to, they haven't said so.

To quote Oswald Spengler, "Every Socialist outbreak only blazes new paths for Capitalism".

He could be right.

by sp member - sp Sun May 27, 2007 02:07

for an alliance of the sp, swp and other leftwingers. swp have proved they are a serious force in dl and dsc.

by cool j Sun May 27, 2007 01:52

Up and down the country including Mayo all the import issues were swept aside by the presidential nature of the election in the final week. This ment all the smaller parties and independents were swept aside as it came down to a contest between FG and FF, Kenny and Ahern. Obviously people in Mayo went with Kenny and FG, which unfortunatly meant Cowley had little chance in the end. All the polls before the final week actually showed him getting the final seat. To ascribe the result in Mayo as a referendum on the ShelltoSea issue is simply nonsense.

by Theshkibbereeneagle Sat May 26, 2007 22:43

One Million Sheep Can't Be wrong!

one Million Sheep Can't Be Wrong!

by Eimear F Sat May 26, 2007 20:37

Can I ask "Daf" why it would "pain" him/her to work with the SWP. I came across some of their campaigns and candidates during the campaign and found them to be genuine, dedicated and now their runners have delivered on behalf of the People before Profit Alliance, especially in Dun Laoighre. The other constituencies illustrate a wonderful opportunity to build solid campaigns and win seats in future elections.

Maybe I am missing something here and possibly naive as am new to this but as a newcomer it seems needlessly divisive and in fact will only disillusion and demoralise many potential Left Wing Activists like myself??? So imagine how it is for non-political people, those whom we hope to represent and advance ......Frankly it is mind boggling, futile at first sight and is definately facilitating the kind of opportunism which has resulted in a massive landslide for the right, neo-liberalism etc etc..... But am I missing something about the SWP????

by bemused Sat May 26, 2007 19:43

I wonder where the shell to sea people have hid, they called for the refinery to become an election issue, and when it did they seem to have dissapeared.
garavin clearly tied cowley to the campaign by issiueing that press release http://www.corribsos.com/index.php?id=1435 and the people answered him clearly.
they should now respect the will of the vast majority of the people of mayo and disist from this futile campaign.

by A Voice Of Reason Sat May 26, 2007 19:21

Seeing the return to the sort of election result i saw in the 1970's where FF and FG divvied up the seats between them from the emotional memories of the Civil War which was heart breaking by the way is it not time to end the hostilities and hurts and forgive and forget? A coalition between FF and FG would make most political sense with both right wing parties hoeing together into a credible capitalist agenda led government. This would leave space for a true Left and Centre Left Opposition to form it'self and grow credibly, really offering a true alternative to the electoracte. Letting the Right Wing at it in unbridled capitalism would create it's own internal contradictions and further polarise the so called haves anf have nots perhaps galvanising political involvement and reaction from those too busy getting smashed in the pub on a Euro Weekend Break on a cheap polluting flight, with just enough money left for a bottle of local plon or whiskey on the way home.

by Daf Sat May 26, 2007 16:41

Joe Higgins is gone,
Catherine Murphy is gone,
Jerry Cowley is gone,
Fingers crossed on Healy and Daly.
It's a shame to see so many dedicated community activists losing out to the bland and faceless mainstream parties.
Sinn Fein never offered any real alternative, they compromised on everything that made them appealing to their constituents and lost out.
The Greens? Well if you can't say anything nice....
Labour were so eager to get into government they got overexcited and lost their election.
I would like to pose a question to all those Labour members who claim to be Socialists, why did you screw the real socialists by giving your preferences to Fine Gael?

If there is a lesson for the real Socialists it is that maybe the time has now come to build a real mass workers party. Of course we'll never change the system through elections but in order to engage the working class we have to present them with an alternative the one time in every five years when they are looking for one.

Now I know I'll get some jumped up anarc*nt criticising me for mentioning Trotsky but just have a look at the Transitional programme and you'll see why there is a point in contesting elections even if you will never change the system with them.

Maybe it's time for the Socialist Party, SWP (and it pains me to include them but unity is unity), ISN, Eirigi, WP and Healy's and Collins' groups came together to examine what a mass party should be. Rather than one group simply pushing out their agenda a la PBP of CIL.

If you want the average punter to consider socialism then let them at least see a Socialist on their ballot papers. Let them know a decent activist with a high enough profile to encourage trade union and community activism.

All the other 'alternatives' have failed. FF are back in power now is the time to challenge the monolith. There is no need to be disheartened. The Soldiers of destiny are about to oversee the implosion of the Irish economy. Roll on 2012.

by Noel Sat May 26, 2007 15:45

A resounding victory for the Centre, there's simply no appetite for the politics of the Left in Ireland.
Bizarrely, for such a conservative country - The PDs (the one party not claiming to be of the Left) were also destroyed.

Sadly, the Irish people were not offered a 'Conservative' type option. If the PDs and Fine Gael were to respond by shifting to the right - there could be a landslide.

by SP Member - SP - pers cap Sat May 26, 2007 15:09 info at socialistparty dot net

Hey,
The Irish constitution isn't a progressive document. Stuff about women in the home, only one type of family etc. The 'democracy' it lays down is not democratic realy - no recall, no control of the real power: the economy, no democracy in work, school or community etc etc. Still though:

CONSTITUTION OF IRELAND – BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN

Dáil Éireann
Article 16
2. 1° Dáil Éireann shall be composed of members who represent
constituencies determined by law.
2° The number of members shall from time to time be
fixed by law, but the total number of members of Dáil
Éireann shall not be fixed at less than one member for
each thirty thousand of the population, or at more than
one member for each twenty thousand of the
population.

DUBLIN WEST
93,000 - 3 seats i.e. each TD represents more than 30,000 - the absolute max laid down by the constitution

DUBLIN NORTH
120,500 - 4 seats i.e. each TD represents more than the max

Now, this may seem like they are just a small bit over, but the point is that is the absolute maximum. These are the two unconstitutional ones I see - two ones where if there was an extra seat it would be with the Socialist Party.

Add to this the cutting out of Palmerstown & Lucan from Dublin West (strong areas for Joe, particularly Palmerstown).

Now lets compare:
Dublin west -V- Cork north central
DW: 1,500 MORE people, 1 seat Less

CORK NORTH CENTRAL
91,591 - 4 seats

[Obviously if this was 3 seats it would be unconstitutional, but im sure areas could be moved etc., in a fair manner, or just add an extra seat for DW)]

Dublin North -V-Dun Laoghaire
DN: 6,000 MORE people, 1 seat LESS

This would have been very funny had RBB won the seat, clare could have launched a "give me back my seat" campaign ;-)

DUN LAOGHAIRE
114,160 - 5 seats

There are also others like this:

LIMERICK EAST
118,235 - 5 seats

DUBLIN SOUTH
118,704 - 5 seats

CAVAN-MONAGHAN
120,000 - 5 seats

DUBLIN SOUTH CENTRAL
122,168 - 5 seats

MAYO
123,839 - 5 hours

Add to this loads and loads of ones which are 70,000 and 3 seats, some of those could have been edited etc to make it work.

This is a scandal. The government were fully aware of this.

by Big Mac Sat May 26, 2007 13:53

McDowell gone, Great! The great dictator Adams left with a bloody nose, Great!

Ahern sweeping back to power, it seems the Southern electorate are still gluttons for punishment, not so great.

by SP Member - SP - personal campacity Sat May 26, 2007 13:14 info at socialistparty dot net

Hey,
Yes the next government will have a fight on their hands. From who? From public sector workers fighting poor pay an privatisation, from private sector workers fighting the race to the bottom, from workers an young people fighting the health crisis, transport crisis, housing crisis.

On the coverage FF (an others) keep saying they need a 'stable government', that won't "run away, for instance if there was a public sector strike". Thats a paraphrasing what the FFer actually said, posing the possibibility of more public workers strikes and the need 'unity' to fight the workers. They keep talkin about 'challenges' and 'rough waters'.

Joe achieved great things through ASSISTING struggles - Gama workers, the Bin tax campaign etc. He and the socialist party will continue to do that. Granted, it will be a loss not to have the Dail platform, which assists in campaigns hugely (please anarchists, no arguments on this point right now).

Again: forward to the struggle!

by Ken Sat May 26, 2007 11:59

"the next govt have a fight on their hands"
From the SP? Ayeeeeeee rightttt!

by iosaf Sat May 26, 2007 11:15

A quick glance through the news this morning shows the general contempt Irish society both at home and abroad held Michael McDowell in. But retiring from some life options is quite difficult as the clichés remind us. Often people avoid kicking a dog when it is down. But in some cases it is quite alright. In fact it smore than desirable at this stage that many of the unresolved and obfuscated issues of the last FF/PD regime be dealt with properly by the junior partners to the next administration.

The worst minister of Justice in the history of the state was never to get off so easily.

You could cheer yourselves up on the lefty side of the stage by picketing his offices and homes. Especially the holiday home he doesn't pay tax on. Remember to rub that salt into the wound. We want a big nasty disfiguring scar not just one lunatic fringe party. His legacy must be disarticulated and to offer ye orientation on what now must be done, I'm going to prepare the political pre-autopsy report charting the wrongs and misdeeds, lies and manipulations, slurs, abuses and omissions of the last five years. Many did not properly realise how far to the right Ireland had gone. If the Irish emergent prosperity of the last decade is to convert into a lasting betterment for all, then a very fine comb must be brought through the tiger's fur of the beast to remove those little nits.

Ireland requires a named and accountable head of security services who is answerable to the Oireachtas.

by Realist Sat May 26, 2007 02:06

Those objective conditions get you everytime. Joe/Clare and their supporters should understand this. They preach it often enough.

by T.F.E Sat May 26, 2007 00:32

As the election is over I would like to publish this short press release on behalf of "Truth for Erris"

we, as a group of likeminded people had intended to run a campaign on the run-up to the election, to use Dr Gerry's vote as a referendum on support for Shell to Sea.
On Sat 5th may we held a meeting in belmullet to discuss our strategy for the campaign, at that meeting it was decided that we would refrain from running the campaign because it was thought that if the people of mayo did in fact use the election to show support for Shell to Sea, it could possibly mean the re-election of Dr Cowley, as 13% support would have seen him re-elected.
Ironically, on hindsight, had we run the campaign it is likely Cowley would indeed have been elected.

Ends...

by d'other Sat May 26, 2007 00:32

That's crazy. Genuinely surprised Joe got turfed out after his brilliant comic profile in the Dail over the past few years. He certainly played his role as a tribune of the people quite well and I hope he can continue with that outside the parliamentary farce.

by Ois - WSM Fri May 25, 2007 23:34

Although I obviously think electoral politics are a dead end. I'm sorry to hear Joe has lost his seat. He did as much as can be done with a parliamentary seat. I hope he's able to find another job quickly.

But as people have said it changes nothing, he's not dead and the struggle continues.

by billy idle Fri May 25, 2007 23:12

Joe's just been on RTE as incisive as ever in his contribution - definatly one of the biggest loss's to the dail arising from this grim election.

by billy idle Fri May 25, 2007 22:37

They were election issues but like many others such as health, education etc. they were overshadowed by the terrible fuss created by the media and FF over poor mouth Bertie getting a tough time over his dodgy finances. That is what won the election for FF since it shielded them from being challenged on the real issues.

by pat - ex-labour Fri May 25, 2007 22:19

Pat Rabbites pact with FG and the so called alliance for chance has resulted in a resurance of FG, damaging other opposition parties incl. Labour. I feel very sorry for Joe Higgins, but i think the SP should not be too worried, anything can happen in 2012. Esspecially if Labour go into government with FF. I'd say Dublin West will be a 4 seater by then.

The Labour Party are on a steady decline, they only elected one new TD this time out, the remainer of the Party is probably on their last outing so they could slip further by 2012, they've been on constant decline from 1992. Spearheading a left alliance or opposition mighth be their only hope.

by fantasy Fri May 25, 2007 21:05

shannon was an election issiue.
corrib gas was an election issiue.
tara was an election issiue
well that is what we were led to beleive, the greens/SF and others lost support because they tried to make them election issiues,
not because they beleived in the fight but because they mistakenly thought it would get them votes (cowley a perfect example)
but the people seen through them and told them so.

by SP Member - SP Fri May 25, 2007 21:01 info at socialistparty dot net

The point remains the same, with or (unfortunately) without Joe Higgins:
-The next government will be a right-wing government,
-It will face growing economic problems in housing, credit, multinationals leaving etc,
-It will face growing opposition to its privatisation agenda, the health crisis will be met with active opposition and the race to the bottom will push workers into fighting back.

Joe would have been a huge assistance in building these struggles. But elections are not the be all and end all of the struggle for socialism.

Interesting to note that the rate of dissatisfaction with the government is up in the exit poll, accoring to RTE. Obviously the result is down to the lack of a real, coherent opposition that people could trust.

Small points about Dublin West: Joe H lost by 400, i think. They took out Lucan and Palmerstown, 2 heartlands of votes for Joe. Also, going by the constitution, there should be a 4th seat for Dublin west. It is criminaly and scanalously under-represented. From my canvassing I foun huge support for Joe. But people were saying he would get a number 2 after the 'alliance for chang' or even Lenihan. Those number 2s were worthless, as we warned.

Evidently people voted 1 for change of govt and then 2 for who they really liked, Joe. This is partly attributable to the lack of a big campaign or issue in Dublin West this election. Its always difficult for small and particularly socilaist parties to really convince people of the need to give them number 1s, especially as it is seen as in some way a 'lost' vote i.e. doesnt effect government choice. The existance of campaigns on the ground adds extra weight to the need to give them number 1s. Thats why RBB did well.

These are problems which evidently were too big this time.

Now. Lets get on with fighting the government.

P.S. Next time around I hope more of ye's get out an help out in our election campaign. Anarchists, LYers and unaffiliated... ;-)

by c Fri May 25, 2007 20:56

retired.

by SP member - SP Fri May 25, 2007 20:55 info at socialistparty dot net

The point remains the same, with or (unfortunately) without Joe Higgins:
-The next government will be a right-wing government,
-It will face growing economic problems in housing, credit, multinationals leaving etc,
-It will face growing opposition to its privatisation agenda, the health crisis will be met with active opposition and the race to the bottom will push workers into fighting back.

Joe would have been a huge assistance in building these struggles. But elections are not the be all and end all of the struggle for socialism.

Interesting to note that the rate of dissatisfaction with the government is up in the exit poll, accoring to RTE. Obviously the result is down to the lack of a real, coherent opposition that people could trust.

Small points about Dublin West: Joe H lost by 400, i think. They took out Lucan and Palmerstown, 2 heartlands of votes for Joe. Also, going by the constitution, there should be a 4th seat for Dublin west. It is criminaly and scanalously under-represented. From my canvassing I foun huge support for Joe. But people were saying he would get a number 2 after the 'alliance for chang' or even Lenihan. Those number 2s were worthless, as we warned.

Evidently people voted 1 for change of govt and then 2 for who they really liked, Joe. This is partly attributable to the lack of a big campaign or issue in Dublin West this election. Its always difficult for small and particularly socilaist parties to really convince people of the need to give them number 1s, especially as it is seen as in some way a 'lost' vote i.e. doesnt effect government choice. The existance of campaigns on the ground adds extra weight to the need to give them number 1s. Thats why RBB did well.

These are problems which evidently were too big this time.

Now. Lets get on with fighting the government.

P.S. Next time around I hope more of ye's get out an help out in our election campaign. Anarchists, LYers and unaffiliated... ;-)

by Miriam Cotton Fri May 25, 2007 20:55

David Cochrane on Politics.ie has posted today that he knows one person who voted four times yesterday. All over the country there seems to have been a lot of irregularity about voting registers. In one case where a block of flats was demolished the residents of adjacent blocks of flats also had their names taken off the voting register. (Will find out exactly where this happened).

There was one fishy result in the UK back in the early 90s which saw John Major re-elected against all voting predictions and even the exit polls. The same thing happened then - an unusually high turnout and lots of complaints about not being able to vote, dead people voting, etc etc. In one constituency in the south west where a Tory got in by a margin of 7 votes, it was discovered that 100 or more dead people had voted. The ensuing investigation deemed that it was 'not in the public interest' to make the results of the investigation known.

The key thing in that election - i.e. the most suspicious thing - was that, in all the key marginals, voter turn out had increased by an uncannily similar percentage and the Torys were voted in on uncannily similar percentage majorities too. If anyone has the computer wherewithall to analyse the statistics, it would be interesting to see whether any definite patterns can be discerned in this election result.

Frankly, I smelled a rat last weekend with the bizarrely inconsistent poll result in favour of FF. It was accompanied by a relentless FF PR push by RTE in particular whose coverage of this election has been disgracefully pro FF. Yeah, I know, nutty conspiracy theorist, sour grapes etc etc but worth looking into anyway. It's not as if they'd have any scruples about doing something like this, now is it?

by Joe Fri May 25, 2007 20:54

MCDowell going out has been announced at the St Pats match this evening to huge cheers

by hum ho Fri May 25, 2007 20:51

Never liked the guy - but at least he was a polariser rather than a bland centrist.

He galvanised many a campaign!

by billy idle Fri May 25, 2007 20:51

Mcdowell is kicked out - PD(Politically dead)

by bigchiefrandomchaos Fri May 25, 2007 20:49

evil one mcdrool is gone

by Radical Alternative Fri May 25, 2007 20:47

"Democracy" in Ireland is controlled by the US Global Coporations.
The Irish people are wage slaves and apathetic sheep - they vote the way the Bosses tell them to.

REAL Socialists realise that in order to bring about the Revolution of the Proletariat we must form an exclusive secretive vanguard dedicated to the overthrow of the Capitalist by whatever means necessary.

We must together Smash the Profit System.

by Radical Alternative Fri May 25, 2007 20:39

"Now more than ever all Socialists should now reorganise and form a new broad based party,that will eventually replace the soft left Labour Party."

Democratic politics are clearly an irrelevance for REAL socialists.
The Dail is controlled by the US corporations and the Irish people are apathetic sheep hypnothised by commercialism.

REAL Socialists do not believe in Capitalism with a Human Face.

The Profit System must be smashed.

The Struggle is on the Street.

by cool j Fri May 25, 2007 20:35

You asked: How stupid do you think the Irish people are?

Well obviously there are many people out there with similar IQ levels to yourself - What that means for the future of this country is anyones guess, but mine would be not good.

by happy Fri May 25, 2007 20:21

watch and learn.(-:

how stupid do you think we irish are?
now please respect the will of the people, and move on.

by ned the red Fri May 25, 2007 20:12

Bad day all round for the left,our only hope now is that Richard Boyd Barrett gets elected.Now more than ever all Socialists should now reorganise and form a new broad based party,that will eventually replace the soft left Labour Party.

by SD Fri May 25, 2007 20:00

Jerry Cowley,
Sean Crowe,
Joe Higgins.

all gone.

not to mention dismal performances from SF in general, and Clare Dalys failure to take a seat.

'hanging around in a two horse town'

by cool j Fri May 25, 2007 19:58

You appear to be another twit working for Shell PR - What does Cassels widly discredited report have to do with these fantasy benefits which you have failed to elaborate on??

by Me Fri May 25, 2007 19:42

Question asked : what the opposition parties need to do to stay relevant ?

Answer : Stop talking shite to which the population do not relate.

by joe hill Fri May 25, 2007 19:39

Don't Mourn, Organise!

by ho hum. Fri May 25, 2007 19:32

I know the anarchists will say that it doesnt matter, the campaign will continue as always but having lost two voices in Joe Higgins and Jerry Cowley within the Dail who were supportive of Shell To Sea is a really bad result, esp. with Cowley's vote vanishing. The people of Mayo just didnt want to support him, which doesnt really say much for support for S2S in Mayo. Pretty shit.

The anti-war pledge/contract thing as well with regards Shannon ended up meaningless... the two parties that didnt sign it at all got 80% of the vote combined (along with some Labour people), so we can expect those GI Joes to be stopping over for a while yet.

As for RBB getting elected... I would rather see it not happen. If it does he and his "alliance" will be exposed eventually for the sham that it is, and the fightback for people of the left like Higgins (and Healy now as well, I just heard??) will be harder as people like RBB are easily ridiculed, no joined up thinking whatsoever, with a front organisation covering a more sinister, undemocratic unrepentant marxist party...

Next five years will be horrible. Time to leave!

by happy Fri May 25, 2007 19:22

most people in erris know excatly what I speak of. ever hear of cassels?

by iosaf Fri May 25, 2007 19:19

I for one enjoyed your performance in the 29th dail. i only criticised you on two points over the last five years the first was in 2002 and was less a criticism of you but of your supporters. it concerned depicting you in front of the GPO and linking you to Jim Larkin. I thought that was as useful to you as people using the adjective Joycean to describe my messages.

joe higgins went to jail. he was sent to jail by the last government.
he led where others didn't. he entertained by saying the right things during the scant time afforded him as a member of the techical grouping which he formed with the SF deputies. He may prove more useful to both his constituency and party in a spell of true opposition. The next general election will not be a record breaking five years plus away.

Well done Joe.

by billy idle Fri May 25, 2007 19:00

Totally agree with lefty - The best performer in the Dail shown the door so as to allow in yet more FF gombeens, Says it all about the culture of politics in this increasingly grubby ,craven little country of ours

by w. Fri May 25, 2007 18:54

Sad to see him go, but it's not like Joe is dead. He can still organise politically.

by cool j Fri May 25, 2007 18:53

Do you know somehing nobody else in Erris appears to be aware of??

by TROTSKY Fri May 25, 2007 18:52

Celtic Badger - I don't think it was actually Brian Lenihan who said that but rather a relative of his !!

Now that Joe is gone it seems that there is only ONE true socialist left in the country - BERTIE ....

by Anelectorist Fri May 25, 2007 18:48

And Mick Murphys surplus just elected the Fianna Failer

by S Fri May 25, 2007 18:45

No this is only a 3 seater despite having the state's largest increase in population since 2002. The least represented constituency.

by happy local Fri May 25, 2007 18:40

"the people against shell and fianna fail will never be popular "
strange statement when you think of Shell to sea's claim that the majority of mayo people are behind them.
when FF are a single party in goverment (with a few ind ff /beverly) how will S2S tear up the contract with shell?
admit defeat, and let the good people of erris get on with their life.
the scolarships are only the tip of a very large iceberg, when S2S fades into the background then the people of erris will indeed benifit greatly from the gas .

by Blackday Fri May 25, 2007 18:39

And that dirtbag Brian "go back to your kebabs" Lenihan tops the poll - no good deed goes unpunished in the free state.

by w. Fri May 25, 2007 18:37

From Ireland.com

Brian Lenihan FF Elected 11,125
Leo Varadkar FG 6,928
Joan Burton Lab 5,799
Joe Higgins SP 5,066

There are 4 seats in this constituency, no?

by lefty type Fri May 25, 2007 18:28

This is a direct result of the insipid irish peoples dash for whatever they can get the greedy mits on.

With a lot of people up to their eyeballs in debt thay have backed the party that got them inti such massive debt thinking that the economy will not change under FF.

What a shower of godshites, They fully deserve what they get and it will be a harsh lesson in parish pump politics.

by red - ' Fri May 25, 2007 18:22

Higgins not re-elected, the end of an era? what next for the Sp?
.

by tnc - tnc corcai Fri May 25, 2007 18:12

i've been to many a glenamoy meeting over the past 2 years and trust me i'm not turning my back on anyone - ask anyone who was there and doesn't have a double motive when it comes to the corrib project - politics, honesty and keeping a credible face to the public is hard to keep! the people against shell and fianna fail will never be popular and aren't looking for votes or credibilty - pity that wasn't the case for cowley!

by cool j Fri May 25, 2007 18:11

I think the county and country in general would benefit more from a share of the massive revenues that will come from the Corrib field rather than a handfull of token scholarships

by voter Fri May 25, 2007 18:11

Dubliners from over 60 units of flats in the south inner city were turned away from polling stations, which had accidentally deleted them from the registers, yesterday.

The residents of the York street flats off St Stephens Green were removed from the register due to a clerical error. The older flats along the street were demolished but the entire block was removed in error.

Voters from the area arrived at the Whitefriar street polling station to find their addresses were no longer listed on the register. A supplementary register was provided allowing people with proof of identification to vote.

by cynic Fri May 25, 2007 17:59

I point you to a fact http://www.corribsos.com/index.php?id=1435 which says "On the Corrib gas question he has involved himself directly in an issue that has been contentious and difficult. The easier option would have been to have withdrawn and confined himself to banal platitudes from a distance. Instead, he has attempted to perform his representative duty and has sought to resolve the problem.

I hope that the voters of Mayo will recognise these qualities of commitment and leadership and give their support to Jerry Cowley. .

Dr garavin of S2S asking us to support their "pet Td".
so tnc and free erris please have the dignity to stand by your man in times of dispair.
why would anybody help S2S iof they turn on anybody that is no longer useful to them?

by Mike Novack Fri May 25, 2007 17:46

No -- the problem is NOT "capitalist parliamentary democracy". It's not the FORM of democracy that is causing your "problem" (decisions not according to your wishes) but the fact that for whatever reason, "the people" have wishes other than you think they should have. Those damned people, obstinantly stubborn and refusing to choose what's good for them.

Look folks, you seriously need to consider which side you are on in the debate about government that goes back at least as far as Plato vs Aristotle. Soem fo us need to face the reality that we do not ACTUALLY believ in democracy but prefer "the rule of the wise".

Democracy is NOT a system designed to result in good, wise, just, etc. etc. decisions. All it does, WHEN working properly, is result in the decisions that the people want. Whether wiesely or foolishly, THEY get to decide. As has been famously stated, democracy comes out looking good only when you consdier the alternatives.

by fairytale Fri May 25, 2007 17:39

"They vote with their feet every morning when they gather in their hundreds at the gates of the refinery"

""free Erris"",
who do you think you are fooling, there was approx 10 die-hard's at the gates this morning (similar to most most mornings)
and some of them were outsiders.
please don't insult our intelligence by pretending the people of Erris support S2S, it is clear by recent developments such as the scholarship by shell, that the public are supporting the project.
Ed Moran of shell to sea fame, is a science teacher at our lady's secondary school belmullet, (one of the four schools signed up to the scholarship fund).
it will be interesting to see if his ethics allow him to remain as a teacher while his school accept shells "silver".

by tnc - tnc corcai Fri May 25, 2007 17:25

no it wasn't a referendum for shell 2 sea - cowley doesn't represent them - in fact many people thought he was doing more damage than good to the campaign - politician's started this mess and we don't need them to fix it - the corruption will be found out and this will be resolved!

by matt Fri May 25, 2007 17:23

"i blame the hard left parties like sp, isn and wp for dividing the left vote and leaving us with much small returns for SF and labour now there is no left power. the anarchists who mocked the elections and encouraged the youth of ireland not to vote hav a lot to answer for!"

I don't think that 'the anarchists' will have any trouble answering ya if you ask.... and I also think you are way overestimating anarchist influence in Ireland but maybe you're right and there is hope after all :-)
It could similarly be remarked that those who encourage people to participate in the voting sham instead of taking responsibility for their own lives and in their own communities, instead of educating themselves and teaching others, instead of demanding change rather than meekly hoping someone will do it if they tick the right boxes have a lot to answer for....

The small hard left parties have not stolen very many votes from Sinn Féin who have not have never had a very high vote, people still being discouraged by their...colourful...past.

As for Labour they're about as Left as my right hand....

Blame the rest of the Left all you want it won't get you anywhere...

Or you can blame the fact that much of the population is kept ill-educated and apathetic about the political process while being fed scare stories and bullshit by the corporate media...

The fact is no party is going to get into government without FF or FG at the moment which pretty much rules out the chance of Left wing government and as it looks unlikely the PD's will get back in, and as Enda Kenny is a much more frightening prospect than our friendly corrupt Bertie whose policy is to straddle every fence he meets until it starts to squeeze on his crown jewels....who can blame them for picking FF...at least you know he's never going to start calling himself 'il duce'

by free erris Fri May 25, 2007 17:16

The people of rossport do not need to vote for a politician to legitimise their campaign against shell. They vote with their feet every morning when they gather in their hundreds at the gates of the refinery. Cowley could never solve the problem for them, and mostly acted as a brake on the movement down there. Now that they have cut themselves free of their dead weight they can step up the campaign.

by billy idle Fri May 25, 2007 17:13

Thats why Cowley looks like losing his seat while FG gained one!! - In any case with FF back in governement counties like Mayo will continue to be ignored and treated as peripheral areas by the state!

by referendum Fri May 25, 2007 17:10

"whilst RTE were interviewing jerry cowley a few minutes ago - as soon as he mentioned the corrib gas line - he was cut off because election results were coming "

he was interviewd at lenght on midwest radio and they highlighted the fact that he only got 70 votes from rossport while micheal ring got over 100 votes, cowley and murray together didnt reach 100 votes combined.
he sounded deflated, and was surprised, but he should have thought of the silent majority who used the oppurtunity to show him what they thought of him
It is a similar picture in the surrounding areas barnatra/pollathomas/inver.
this ballot was seen as a referendum on the S2S campaign, ant the people have spoken, they have said no to the s2s group and yes to FF who "gave away" our natural resources.

by libertarian Fri May 25, 2007 17:08

"I wouldn’t be naive enough to say we ought to abandon it all"

I think its more naive to put your faith in capitalist parliamentary democracy, you can't dismantle the masters house with the masters tools, 100 years of failed social democracy have shown us that.

by billy idle Fri May 25, 2007 16:59

One would have thought that Joe Public in the commuter counties near Dublin would be by now rather tired of this government with its hallmark of poor planning , traffic chaos, heath care crisis,lack of school places etc. - apparently not though with the FF vote more than holding up if not increasing in many cases(50% for FF on the first count in Kildare South for example!!). In Kildare, Wicklow, Meath and Louth were all these problems were supposidly big issues the people have basically deceided the want more of the same - fair enough but why moan about it on the air-waves, letters to papers etc.

Similarily in Galway West were there drinking water is of slightly better standard than treated sewage, the much anticipated green vote never materialises with that crook Frank Fahy romping home again. Galway West will also be one of the mercifully tiny number of constituencies returning a PD member. Extraordinary stuff.

The whole thing can be neatly summed up by the fact that in Wicklow ,the count centre where Dick Roach Minister for the environment and his running mate are to be announced as easy winners of seats, had it 's water supply cut off due to e-coli contamination!!!

I hope the public out there keep enjoying the bed they've yet again made for themselves!!

by iosaf - "forgive a non voter for going about it all so much" Fri May 25, 2007 16:58

As the progressive democrats leave Irish political history the minister of Education in the last government has offered discussions to either the Green party or the Irish Labour party with a view to forming a new administration. Having secured his own seat at the second count deputy Rabitte might wonder (if he was smart enough all along) has the lesson of the FF/PD regime really been learnt.

At his first speech as party leader McDowell was quick to trumpet the observed phenomena that a minority liberal economic faction could "punch above its weight". Surely Rabitte or others would have realised that in the climate created by the peace process, Scottish elections, slanging match over Mahon tribunal leaks & so on - the best FG could hope for was to return to its natural position and retake on a permenant basis the electorate which had abandoned it for the PD's. Therefore it was a foregone conclusion that Rabitte's Labour would never enter into government as part of a rainbow coalition with the blue shirts. That was not to be the strategy or tactics. Nor even oddly as it might seem to anyone who missed the importance of Labour's poorly conceived offer of votes to 16 year olds or its frankly crap foray on the internet of youtube and myspace - -- nor did Irish Labour need to win more seats than it had last time to change the most objectionable aspects of the regime.

I do hope the background material of the last five years will show you that the best you may hope for now is a short legislative which brings the "socialist" Bertie to a decent and international statesmanlike departure with full honours & some day a bloody big state funeral none of us will go to. Meanwhile the real targets of the last five years are going to join Peter Barry on the list of "shortests". Can you the readership imagine the pleasure felt by the people who get to replace the verb Deputy X is a TD and minister for Deputy X was a TD and minister.
I tell you - the pleasure afforded the person who edits the official record is just too good to keep from public disclosure. In fact it far exceeds the kick of a well written obituary.

& so the last punch has been thrown.
Your regime is changed kids .:. within the given parameters.
You've a long way to go to leftwing socialist government on the island.

Unless of course the greenies take their most marvellous Henge bone, wag their tales & switch their allegiance from the strong blue shirt of a Meath farmer to the hard working commuting type of Drogheda.

by ? Fri May 25, 2007 16:57

C'mon surely it would be good for everyone in favour of progressive politics that both Joe H and RBB get elected. Two eleoquent speakers from the left.

The rejection of Joe by the Dublin West people is hard to fathom, I was under the impression he was a shoe in!

by Libertarian Infusion Fri May 25, 2007 16:48

The reason why FF will get re-elected has absolutely nothing to do with the left not being left enough and being corporate friendly....

The fact of the matter is that Middle Class Ireland (and the predominant section of people who are likely to vote) has never had it so good and issues like the War in Iraq/ Shell to Sea will never impact the ballot box. ... Arguably, it was up to both campaigns to make them election issues etc...

The media control the boundaries of the debate and most party policies are tailored to go down well with media broadcasting and their audiences.... If the media made the war an election issue then it is likely it would be an election issue.... but, why would they?

However, what the Irish electorate where presented with was a choice between who will manage the economy better for the next five years. And who would blame them for choosing FF, the whole cliché 'better the enemy you know than the enemy you don’t’ etc...

Don’t get me wrong, I am well disappointed that FF will be in government for another 5 years.... I voted to choose an alternative enemy... (One good thing that parliamentary democracy offers us)... the extend that Ireland has had single party rule for so long would make any authoritarian communist jealous.

What this election shows is not that the 'left' (whatever the hell that means nowadays) have not been left enough but the inadequacies of the current democratic system. I wouldn’t be naive enough to say we ought to abandon it all together but let’s at least agree that what’s more important is constructing a democratic system that could in the first place give credence to progressive social arguments.

Until that happens I won’t be at all surprised that FF despite all their fuck ups continues to get elected.

by annoyed voter Fri May 25, 2007 16:45

i blame the hard left parties like sp, isn and wp for dividing the left vote and leaving us with much small returns for SF and labour now there is no left power. the anarchists who mocked the elections and encouraged the youth of ireland not to vote hav a lot to answer for!

by squirrel Fri May 25, 2007 16:37

At least the Socialist Party candidates ran an honest campaign under their own party banner. Not like RBB and RH who hide behind people before profit and never mention the SWP.

by Dorothy Gale Fri May 25, 2007 16:31

Well the SP ran on Socialist Policies and were not afraid to mention abortion in their manifesto. The SWP/PBPA didnt mention socialism let alone abortion.

by Anelectorist Fri May 25, 2007 16:24

So no Clare, Mick, Mick or perhaps even Joe for the SP but RBB for the SWP. That could be interesting in terms of the SP slagging of the SWP that has gone on here and elsewhere to date.

by tnc - tnc corcai Fri May 25, 2007 16:18

whilst RTE were interviewing jerry cowley a few minutes ago - as soon as he mentioned the corrib gas line - he was cut off because election results were coming in - when they went to hear the results they were met with silence - RTE claimed technical difficulties - and then they moved swiftly along to another speaker - hhhhmmmm?

by r Fri May 25, 2007 16:18

it looks like Joe Higgins might not win the final seat in Dublin West...that must make us all despair :(

by Dorothy Gale Fri May 25, 2007 16:06

"Joe Higgins and RBB could be the real opposition in the Dail!!!!!!!!"

Well, Joe Higgins would be the real opposition. No one knows what RBB would do. The way the SWP dominate and destroy campaigns doesnt auger well for how RBB would behave.

by Alannis Fri May 25, 2007 16:05

The water has been turned off at the count centre where the minister of the environment's votes are being counted amid fears of contamination.

Nevertheless, Minister Roche is expected to be returned to office.

If this was fiction, people would say it was unbelievable.

by simon Fri May 25, 2007 16:00

People don't vote far left get over it

by RDS 1 Fri May 25, 2007 15:55

Pictures from democracy in action
The last time Fianna Fáil lost an election was in 1982. It's looking very likely that they have won this year's, and will form the next government.

Irish neutrality has been seriously undermined, the country's natural resources given away, state industry privatised, citizens' rights eroded.

There has been an increase in corruption, in police violence and excess, in environmental destruction.

People are going to ask what Fianna Fáil need to do to lose power, and what the opposition parties need to do to stay relevant.

Presenting a clear, left-wing voice and offering the Irish electorate a coherent, serious possibility of living in a modern, socialist democracy has yet to be tried. Instead we see the various parties of the left doing their best to present themselves as more or less "corporate-friendly".

It's not that they were too left-wing, they weren't left-wing enough.

Here are some pictures of the count of the Dublin constituencies at the RDS this morning.

by r Fri May 25, 2007 15:49

RBB is ahead of Cuffee and RTE are saying it will be close for 5th seat.

Sean O Rourke's comments to Richard in the past 30mins about his personal family life on RTE Radio One we're nothing short of a thundering disgrace, from a broadcaster that I always had the height of respect for.

I hope RBB pulls through.

Joe Higgins and RBB could be the real opposition in the Dail!!!!!!!!

by Dorothy Gale Fri May 25, 2007 15:43

I take no pleasure out of the setbacks suffered by LP, SF & the SP. It means that A&E patients have been guaranteed that they will sleep on trollies and chairs. Those who suffer from Cystic Fibrosis have been promised an early death. The Health system will continue to be privatised. The well off will live; the poor will die early.

Three cheers for the wisdom of the irish Electorate.

by Squirrel Fri May 25, 2007 15:42

I agree with previous posters that labours pre-election pact with a party more right than FF has been disastrous. It has handed a life line to a dying FG. It could easily be argued that FG could have been reduced to 10 to 15% had it not been for this pact.

You set up an Enda or Bertie battle which sidelined all others including yourselves. The results of which are great left voices such Sean Crowe and possibly Joe Higgins are gone and our two right wing party system cemented. Well done labour.

by none Fri May 25, 2007 15:37

possibility

by storey Fri May 25, 2007 15:34

Diogenes Club: The long term objectives remain the same and the strategies too will for the most part not alter.

Albert Einstein:Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

by jim Fri May 25, 2007 15:21

Looks like a bad day for the left, FG & FF gain while Greens, Lab, SP and SF lose.

The Labour Party and Pat Rabbitte's pact with FG have help give the squeeze to the smaller parties.

Where do we go from here?

Sad to see Joe Higgins gone

by diogenes club .:. Fri May 25, 2007 14:47

If any of the readership honestly expected to change the Irish regime under the circumstances of the last year & against the forces both national and transnational which have supported and maintained the peculiar Irish "2 right wing party" system since the birth of the autonomous Irish state - they really were expecting too much of the tiny (in European terms) Irish electorate. There are a host of city councils or local autonomous government bodies in the EU with a larger enfranchised electorate & even budgets which outstrip the mid 40billionEU of Dail Eireann.

Don't get too down about it though. The long term objectives remain the same and the strategies too will for the most part not alter. The political organisations of the left needed to lose dead wood and define their credibility and core grass root supporters more than playing "government in waiting" games. As I first wrote four years ago the larger left of centre parties made serious mistakes in supporting the agenda of FG and writing off their place in Irish governance. There was too much underestimation of traditional family based and "Free state attitude inherited prejudice" to dismiss Enda Kenny's blueshirt option as the mere bleating of a "rump".

It was not the right time for SF take many seats, the presumption of the younger generation of SF candidates which first found public expression on this website as leaving their traditional 26 county "radical" or "microleft" legacy behind them and thus ride on the coat-tails of a wish for Irish unity ignored the widespread credit given Ahern & Blair for the latter successes of the peace process in the northern Ireland statelet. Should SF have romped home today it would have been a long term disaster for anyone who takes "reclaiming 1916" seriously.

The greens too look set to learn lessons about the longterm reaction to mistakes made in the public eye over four years which prompted them to adopt a "snooty" profile.

All said and done, the political victory of Ian Paisley on the island earlier this year taken in light with the winding up of the Blair regime and its smooth transfer to the Brown regime in the UK indicated nothing else than a return of Bertie the lehandakari of Eire.

olé! Bertie I knew you'd manage it. Now we want a decent type as minister of justice and health, a lot of disclosure, less leaking, lots of hospital beds, an end to the mental health issues & of course a smooth preparation for the next election which as anyone capable of longterm political analysis knows will come this side of 2010.
I've gone on record (even by registered post) as insisting on the longterm needs for full disclosure of what amounts to the Eire state's secret security files. We must never repeat the likes of Mc Dowell again.

For those interested in "elections" - the next proof of the curious mix of meritocracy, mafiocracy, plutocracy & securocracy which is the
system your very small enfranchised group just called a democratic general election - I'd suggest keeping an eye on the next demonstration of "public opinion" meets "mass psychology" which is the Spanish state local and municipal elections. Will the illegalised batasuna vote increase? Will ZP continue to consolidate a 12-15 year regime á la Blair / Ahern Will the Barcelona right wing succeed in their campaign to end the immunity of the okupe "200 expert trouble makers"? There will of course be a "how the spanish state voters voted and not-voted" next week.

Don't be sad. If you didn't see the results coming - you really know very little about politics & should probably just dedicate yourself to origami, knitting, postcard collecting or direct action. The last option has an exciting outing coming up :- the G8 in Germany. Great news is after a most awesome visitation of both federal German and trans-national European security forces, neither Al Qaeda nor Bader Meinhof "have a go" types will be attending the G8. You're welcome and invited. Go along! :-)

olé! you did it Bertie. now let's see who is capable of opposing you.

by Libertarian Infusion Fri May 25, 2007 13:55

It looks increasingly likely that FF could gain an overall majority with a few indpendents and one or two PD's whatever they managed to scrape in.....

Labours decision to back FG and Pat Rabbittes de facto role of FG party leader over the past few weeks has back fired something special....FG are effectively taking their seats as well as SF in many constiuencies...... i sense a lot of 'left resentment' will be increasingly aimed at the labour party over the coming weeks for their coaltion pact as done nothing but cement the right-right divide of Irish politics....

One of the biggest surprises has to be in Dublin South West (predominantly made up of Tallaght) where Sean Crowe looks likely to lose his seat. In 2002 he ran away with the election and the first TD to be elected to Dail Eireann.

Some commentators thought that SF could win two seats in this traditional SF stronghold.... Now it looks like Brian Hayes-FG- (the right wing squirm that he is ) will take his seat... well done Pat.....

Fuck it is depressing........

by ned the red Fri May 25, 2007 13:32

The most pernicious element of the outgoing government the Pee Dees seems to have finally got its cumuppence,but before we start celebrating remember that equally vicious neo-con crypto Pee Dees such as Cullen Brennan and Roche look certain to be returned to government.This time Harney and company took the rap, but they will have no Pee Dees to hide behind for the next five years and subsequently their true policies will be more transparent.

by Harps Fri May 25, 2007 13:26

A clear and unambiguous government.... woo hoo!

by cowley Fri May 25, 2007 13:12

gerry cowley got 70 votes from rossport, micheal ring(who is on the record as saying the refinery should be built at bellinaboy) got over 100 votes.
now S2S what you say about that?
bye to cowley and good riddence!

by bigchiefrandomchaos Fri May 25, 2007 13:11

it looks like a fight between mcdrool and gormley in dublin south east - lets hope mcdrools eyes get scratched out

by Left wing govt Fri May 25, 2007 13:01

The PDs are facing meltdown!

by bigchiefrandomchaos Fri May 25, 2007 12:53

Im watching RTE's coverage of the count and there are smug Fianna Fail supporters who are going to make a small fortune off bets made on the results - richer and sicker - its painfull to watch - emmigration anyone?

by Rev Malcolm X - church of Marx Fri May 25, 2007 12:16

intervention
the silence has broken
suddenly the silence of Irish independent, journalist. Sam Smyth broke yesterday morning. the day of elections. RTe radio.
Sam statement about the crisis in Irish health care. listeners were told about Sam's daughter. who is a person with cystic fibrosis. noone would wish what parents, go through. who cant afford to pay. in the way this Irish state treats their children.
Sam has very close friendship with tax evader Tony o Reilly. also Mc Dowell. it is my first time hearing Sam attacking this obnoxious right wing government policys.

I hope Indepent left candidates do well.

by We the People. Thu May 24, 2007 20:46

Is there really 'left' and 'right' in Politics?

Who would want to live under a commy left regime or a Fascist right regime?

Whatever happened to the middle? A level playing pitch , a more just and balanced Society for us all?

Poly - tics , many blood suckers , is really a dilusion for us all. It puts one against the other where nothing is ever achieved and it's purpose is to give People the false illusion that something will eventually change for the better. Even the word ,'hope' is stuck in there somewhere.

There IS no left and right. We feed that ourselves. It was invented to keep People occupied , while the REAL controlloing agenda works silently behind the scenes. The hidden Government whose object is a Totalitarian New World Order.

by john throne - labors militant voice Thu May 24, 2007 18:59 loughfinn at aol dot com

The responses from the SP members leave only two things that I feel I have to respond to. Their slanders about why I was expelled do not give any explanation of the actual events. It is no accident they do not do this. It would undermine their entire case.

As important they neglect to mention that I was not given the right to appeal against my expulsion. Think about that. Being a central member of an organization for 25 years then being expelled and not being given the right to appeal to the membership of the organization against your expulsion. This is not about me it is about the internal life of the SP.

When the SP is pinned down on this corrupt undemocratic internal life they lie. When I pinned Joe down on this he first said: "You were not expelled." Then he said "you were given your right to appeal." Then when he realised that the second statement contradicted the first he said: "You got yourself into the jam you are in so get yourself out of it." A comradely principled response indeed.

So has the SP got a principled democratic internal life or an undemocratic corrupt internal life? Lies and slanders and expulsions are the norm when serious opposition views are raised in the SP. In spite of its good work on the ground the internal life of the SP is undemocratic and corrupt.

John Throne.

by Really confused Thu May 24, 2007 17:54

"Finally, someone takes umbrage at the one negative part of my description of the Irish Socialist Network. When I described them as politically confused I was referring to their attempt to meld the incompatible influences of left communism and the Scottish Socialist Party. Both the radicalism of the left communists and the SSP's unwillingness to choose between reform and revolution are tightly argued internally consistent worldviews. The attempt to mix the two is not in my view. You may of course differ. You will note that my description of the ISN was, despite this, largely positive."

And what of trying to meld the SP's Trotskyism with the worship of the Cuban loving/Nordic Capitalism of Share-A-Tan's gang.

by former militant member Thu May 24, 2007 17:15

It should be obvious that the questions I have posed have been avoided. SP members claim that the reasons for John Throne's expulsion have been gone into repeatedly, and now reiterate that he 'actively attempts to subvert those decisions.' But, again, no one says precisely what this despecable behaviour was. Was it violence? Intimidation? Criminality? In fact, none of this has ever been gone ointo, not even once, let alone repeatedly.

It does rather appear to confirm the view that the biggest crime inaginable in the SP is to continue to defend views you believe in - this is sabotage, unpardonable, terrible, a thought crime, meriting only expulsion. It is a deeply unappealing spectacle - its members should be ashamed. I hope at least some are.

by Jolly Red Giant - Socialist Party/CWI Thu May 24, 2007 15:53

It's not worth the effort because the effort has already been made - over and over, and over, and over again, many YEARS ago.

John Throne's actions have been gone through repeatedly. Ask John for ALL (and I stress ALL) the documentation and if you have a spare week (or 50) you can indulge yourself reading the contents. I was involved and have not intention of going further. In a revoultionary organisation if an individual refuses to accept the democratic decisions of the membership and actively attempts to subvert those decisions - then you got to expect to be expelled.

Got to go - more important work calls - today is election day afterall

by Tom Joad Thu May 24, 2007 15:05

Come off it Sp members/jolly giant and your politically impoverished hangers on.... If john throne said it was left sectarianism and if the chorus (former militant member) agrees, well then, its obviously true, how else could it be? after all JT recuited joe h, dermot connolly etc etc, was the first member in ireland, was first fulltimer, was on the IS. single-handedly built the militant (the list goes on) and the Sp repaid him by........... not going to his book lauch. NOW THAT BY ITSELF IS THE HEIGHT OF LEFT-SECTARIANISM

by Endless Droning Thu May 24, 2007 14:19

Having read through another of John's essay's it turns out that his odd use of the term "left sectarianism" is meant to distinguish the concept not just from religious sectarianism but also from the idea of sectarianism as it is commonly understood in the socialist movement. John accepts that the Socialist Party is among the least sectarian of organisations when it comes to its attitude towards the working class, but thinks that we are unpleasant to other left groups!

All I can say to that is that it appears that we aren't so far apart in our views after all.

I'm really only interested in sectarianism regarding the workers movement and simply don't care very much about whether or not small revolutionary groups go out of their way to be nice to each other. To me the latter issue is inconsequential, but for what it's worth, I've already outlined above that there are a range of views in the Socialist Party about the vast range of left wing groups from Sparts to Stalinists and every point between. We work with other groups when it will advance the goals of a campaign or a particular struggle and we do so in a collaborative way. When we think it won't advance such goals, we don't. This stuff matters in the left ghetto, including on indymedia but it is not of great interest to the world at large. Contrary to John's opinion that the working class notices the spectrum of left groups, there are few areas of Dublin, let alone anywhere else in the country, where more than one left group even exists and even fewer workplaces. If you don't exist, you aren't visible.

Finally, someone takes umbrage at the one negative part of my description of the Irish Socialist Network. When I described them as politically confused I was referring to their attempt to meld the incompatible influences of left communism and the Scottish Socialist Party. Both the radicalism of the left communists and the SSP's unwillingness to choose between reform and revolution are tightly argued internally consistent worldviews. The attempt to mix the two is not in my view. You may of course differ. You will note that my description of the ISN was, despite this, largely positive.

by Endless amusement Thu May 24, 2007 12:00

"For instance, I think that the Irish Socialist Network is somewhat politically confused."

Well, anyone could get confused reading what the SP/CWI has had to say about Tommy Sheridan in recent months - can you blame them really? I suppose "politically confused" is a roundabout way of saying "they don't agree with me, so they must be confused, no intelligent clear-sighted person could fail to agree with me".

by iosaf Thu May 24, 2007 11:55

1) close observation of elections in the past 5 years on this website has shown a direct corealation between weather and voting. If it is a either a splendidly hot day or a shivering cold day in Erin - you will by 8pm see copious references made to same & its influence on abstention. No analysis of the results ought be attempted without first assessing the strength of sunshine, the punch of the wind & of course the milimetres of rainfall.

Here's the official forecast :-
http://www.met.ie/

2) Today many overly eager people will see the girth of their ambition finally measured. In other words they will fail. By tomorrow evening the niggling doubts will have turned to tailspin disaster as they wonder was there any indication or sign given that they had lost the confidence of voters & supporters. It might be appropriate to hug these people. But lest they forget too quickly that many clear lines were drawn in the sand which they blythely ignored - I would counsel leaving off that hug till at least Sunday........... let 'em stew it did David Trimble a load of good.

3) Almost Last but not least - remember the government win elections.
Don't get too excited should your favourite team get into the Dail or even "the driving seat".

4) Please be aware that you have not been bombed by Al Qaeda.
Get that across to casual observers. Phone up the radio stations now and use the lingo. "If Osama had bombed us - we'd have Gerry Adams in the Aras an Uachtaran by 2011"

by former militant member Thu May 24, 2007 10:42

Jolly Red Giant and his co-'thinkers' are oblivious to the completely off-putting effect of such a contemptuous and insulting tone, which is of course part and parcel of left sectarianism (and the norm on the part of the SP/ CWI when dealing with dissent). Among the things that puts people off socialist organisations is the language they use towards those who disagree with them. Insults in place of political analysis ('You are really not worth the effort' etc) is sectarianism at its worst.

Moreover, the notion that all this has been hashed out before is nonsense. Despite repeated invitations to spell it out, not one member of the SP - not one - has ever explained precisely what John Throne did that allegedly 'subverted the democratic decisions of the US section of the CWI.' So I will repeat the question, albeit with no hope of getting an answer. What exactly did this long standing militant fighter do that was so terrible, so unforgivable, so bizarre that it merited his expulsion? Did he put CWI documents in the bourgeois press? Did he physically intimidate those he disagreed with? Did he stand up at CWI conferences when others were speaking and shout 'bollocks'? What exactly did he do? In the absence of any answer to this - and none has EVER been given - it simply looks to outside observers that his heinous crime, his monstrous behaviour ,consisted of one thing only - continuing to argue for his views. How vile, how undemocratic, how terrible of him - or, alternatively, what a damning indictment of the internal culture of your organisation.

Do you know, or care, just how damaging this perception is to your credibility? Many people have told me that an organisation which cannot find room for such an outstanding socialist in its ranks must have something seriously wrong with it. It is impossible to take seriously an organisation which says it is campaigning against injustice and for a better world, and which treats its own people so shabbily, with so little regard for the wider impact this has on its public reputation.

Where I disagree with John it is simply in this: I think that these problems are so deeply rooted in your internal culture that I do not believe they can or will be changed. Consequently, ongoing sectarian marginalisation and occupation of an unhappy footnote in political history beckons...

by yup Thu May 24, 2007 10:03

Yup, definitely - Fat Rabbit will be eating humble pie come the results. The naked careerist that he is.

He could sit back and say "Fianna Fail and Fine Gael are the exact same ideologically - why dont they form a Government together?" - and then we'd finally start cutting through this whole irish election bullshit of "an opposition", but he wont.

To think he was a Marxist at one stage in his life. Five more years of FF with Labour next to them.

Who's ready to crash the next Labour ard fheis over S2S, Shannon, and any other issue you care to mention that they supposedly should be suporting as a party of the left?

by Dub Thu May 24, 2007 09:54

Anyway, lets get back on the original topic!

Here's my prediction

FF 69 seats
FG 47 seats
Lab 19 seats
GP 10 seats
SF 11 seats
Ind 6 seats
SP 2 seats
PD 2 seats

that will result in a Fianna Fáil - Labour coalition being election on 14 June.

by Jolly Red Giant - Socialist Party/CWI Thu May 24, 2007 09:21

You really are not worth the effort.

We have been around the houses numerous times about this over the past ten years. And SP members are well aware that your appeal to the decency of Joe Higgins is nothing more than an underhand attempt to take a swipe at the SP/CWI. The basis of your accusations about the internal life of the SP is the fact that you did not get your own way when you attempted to subvert the democratic decisions of the US section of the CWI. Insisting on re-fighting old battles, long since settled, will inevitably draw less than polite comments from CWI members. This is unfortunate but inevitable given that we have heard it all before, many times over.

Get over it and move on.

by Watcher Thu May 24, 2007 09:16

Is a vote for Fianna Fail a vote to allow Tony O'Reilly and his hoard of sock puppets at the Indo influence in our affairs?
Reports that Fianna Fail had meetings with Tony O'Reilly recently ought to convince any floating voters that we need change. It is simply not acceptable that O'Reilly, who creams millions every year out of the Irish economy and takes it off shore to his hideaway so as to avoid tax, should be allowed within an asses roar of any government Minister or official. His like should be treated for what they are; parasites whose greed cannot be sated.
The bottom line is, that if you vote for Fianna Fail, then what you get is the malign influence of this greed merchant in our affairs.

Get out and vote for change and remember, a failure to vote is a vote for Fianna Fail and the continued govenence by the values of Tony O'Reilly

by John Throne - Labors Militant Voice. Thu May 24, 2007 04:50 loughfinn at aol dot com

Under the title "Endless Bickering" the SP member who accuses me of "Endless Droning" writes a long email. The fact that I am addressed as Endless Droning itself says something about the SP's left sectarianism. However more important the long email is a desperate attempt to rescue the SP from the mess its other member put it in when he or she wrote: "if there are genuine socialists, lefts and community activists who want to join in a serious struggle for socialism they should join the SP." This is classic SP left sectarianism. The SP is the only organization and the rest are all sects. I know this because this was the CWI and SP's attitude and also my attitude all those years I was in it. All other organizations are sects and only the SP are right.

It is worth looking at this. Endless Droning gets all mixed up in his email. I am not sure if this is deliberate or not. First he argues that there is no use campaigning against left sectarianism. He or she claims that just about nobody knows about the left groups anyway. This is not true. In just about every struggle, every strike, every campaign, the left groups are present. The left groups are known by people when they go into struggle and how they act towards to each other is noticed. When they act towards each other in a left sectarian manner this damages socialist ideas and the ability to gain support for these ideas in the working class. The SP itself is weakened by its writing off of the other left groups as sects.

How should the SP act in relation to left sectarianism? They should increase their emphasis in united front direct action campaigns with all workers who move into struggle and with the different left groups also. In this process they should openly identify left sectarianism and oppose it. They should especially oppose it through their own actions but in general by campaigning against it in the course of the various struggles. They should also seek to run united candidates in elections out of these struggles. Coming together with other campaigns and left groups and individuals to put forward united candidates. This is what I mean by campaigning against left sectarianism. The reason the SP does not do this is because it would expose its own left sectarianism. Activists would see and point out that it would not be practising what it would be preaching.

At the same time in relation to their internal party life the SP should learn the lessons from the past and openly explain these lessons. These lessons are that due to isolation from the mass movement of the working class and the influence of stalinism the internal lives of all left groups became too centralized and top down. The SP continues with such an internal life. Any serious different point of view from that of the leadership is crushed, any faction formed is slandered and lied about and expelled and its members refused their right of appeal.

This undemocratic and corrupt internal life results in two things. The first in relation to left sectarianism. Such an internal life makes it much more difficult to unite with other left groups. Such unity would be much easier of other left groups could see some evidence that their views would be heard, that they would be published inside and outside a united party as was the case with the Bolsheviks before it was devastated by the civil war and the developments that gave rise to stalinism. The internal life of the SP is based on a left sectarian view and strengthens left sectarianism and weakens the tendency towards unity of the working class.

The second thing that results from this internal life is that it will make it impossible for the SP to become a mass party. It is totally excluded that large numbers of workers will join a party where alternative views are not given full freedom of expression, including full factional rights. The SP has never allowed factions in fact it has crushed them, slandered and lied about them, expelled their main members and refused these members their right of appeal to the membership against their expulsion.

When I say that Endless Droning gets all mixed up I refer to where he mixes up left sectarianism with sectarianism in his email. I happen to think that the SP is one of the least sectarian of the left groups. I am talking here in the sense of sectarianism meaning the attitude and relationship of the SP to the working class and working class activists. The ability to listen to and discuss with the working class. However even here you cannot ignore the damaging affect of left sectarianism. In the best of situations the SP continues to try and dominate and monopolize workers struggles and campaigns and this is noticed by working class activists with negative affects.

As I have already said I hope the SP and all the left candidates do well in this election. I hope Joe and Clare and the other SP candidates get elected. I also hope that Joe even at this belated time will raise his head and speak out against the undemocratic and corrupt internal life of the SP. He is used by the leadership of the CWI internationally to try and build its forces. He is in a position of potential power to change the internal life of the SP and the CWI and to move it away from left sectarianism. I appeal to him as I did some years ago to take such a stand against the undemocratic and corrupt internal life of the SP and by doing so give the party a real future.

by Bertie Fan Thu May 24, 2007 00:01

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8032151@N05/sets/

by Shell to Sea'er Wed May 23, 2007 23:57

FF leader visited yesterday, more photos here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/8032151@N05/sets/72157600252613309/

by virgin voter. - non party. Wed May 23, 2007 23:31

FF 70
FG 43
Lab 19
PD 4
Green 9
SF 8
SP 2
Ind 10

by Paula Geraghty Wed May 23, 2007 22:59 mspgeraghty at yahoo dot ie

Images from yesterday's IAWM press conference.

Speakers urged voters to consider the role of Ireland's complicity with the war in Iraq.

The list of politicians who signed the Irish Anti-War Movement's pledge is at
http://irishantiwar.org/index.adp
(c)images

Ruhal Ahmed of the Tipton 3 who was held in Guantanamo for 2 1/2 years

The public meeting later in Dun Laoighaire was rather well attended

Cindy Sheehan, Peace Mom and Ruhal Ahmed

Brendan Butler and Mick O Reilly who also addressed the press conference

by Results Wed May 23, 2007 21:55

Recent poll on the road:
One of each party getting a seat.as follows
Ring Cowley . Carty Murray $ Toss between Cook or Flynn
This is the end of the Mayo results, Slan abhaile . Best of luck to all and us & Indymedia for giving us this opportunity to voice our openions

by Endless Droning Wed May 23, 2007 20:03

There is little or no need for much of the childish bickering and insult slinging in this thread, so I'll ignore it. The issue which the squabbling arose from was very straightforward. One poster claimed that the Socialist Party would do better in this election if it "led a campaign against left sectarianism". That claim was bizarre and quite simply factually wrong.

"Left sectarianism" is not an issue which anyone outside the left ghetto cares about. Unfortunately much of the working class at large is unaware of the existence of the far left, beyond maybe hearing Joe Higgins on the radio. In so far as people are aware of the far left (as for instance most people in Dublin West are) they tend not to pay any attention to whether the left is divided for the very simple reason that few people have ever had contact with more than one left wing group, unless you count fading memories of the Workers Party in its pomp. Of those who have encountered multiple left wing groups, fewer still have any opinion, negative, positive, insightful or ill informed about the fact that they are separate groups. There is unlikely to be one person in Blanchardstown or wherever who will vote for Fine Gael over the Socialist Party because the Socialist Party is not part of some kind of alliance with a councillor in Crumlin or some other small left wing groups. It is just not an issue in any way, shape or form.

This issue, of whether a campaign against "left sectarianism" would be worthwhile, quickly merged with a second issue: a few people claiming that the Socialist Party is itself sectarian. I do not accept that the Socialist Party is sectarian. We do not put our own interests ahead of the interests of the working class. Instead we put back breaking work into encouraging working class militancy and political action and we are willing to work with anyone where we think it will help advance those goals. We have a proud record of taking part in real campaigns alongside a range of other people and of throwing our entire organisation into aiding and assisting workers struggles.

This second issue, as it normally does, quickly became confused with a third issue, that of our view of various small left wing groups. Let me start by making something very clear. Being rude about small left wing groups is not sectarian. Small left wing groups, including the Socialist Party, are not the working class. Low opinions of other groups on the left may be justified or they may be completely unfair, but they are not in and of themselves sectarian. Sectarianism is about an organisations relationship with the working class and not an organisations view of other small organisations.

That said, there are a range of views within the Socialist Party about various other left wing groups. Depending on the individual SP member and depending on the group concerned, you will get widely differing opinions. For instance, I think that the Irish Socialist Network is somewhat politically confused. I also think that it is a group largely made up of decent, hardworking, sincere socialists who we have worked with before and will doubtless work with again. Some people may think more highly of them than that, some may be more critical. To use another example, I also recognise that most members of the SWP are sincere activists, but working with them is much more problematic than working with members of practically any other group.

None of the above has anything to do with sectarianism and what's more, most of it has little bearing on whether or not we are in favour of any kind of alliance or broad formation at the moment. We are, as we keep saying, in favour a new party of the working class. We are not in favour of rushing off half-cocked and forming such a party or some intermediate formation when we don't think it will attract any forces beyond the small left groups. That's a tactical assessment and one which I note few people seriously challenge apart from the SWP, who are at least honest enough to put their wildly over optimistic assessment of the possibilities open to socialists at the moment out there explicitly.

by MichaelY - iawm Wed May 23, 2007 17:56

Yesterday, Tuesday 22nd at 11.00 in the morning, members of the iawm had an excellent discussion with Joe Higgins. Having signed the anti-war pledge, he came to a Press Conference, with activists from Sinn fein, Labour Party, horror-of -horror a few SWPs, a whole number of independents and wished us all good luck with the 'Make the War and Election Issue' Campaign.
Then, I come to this thread and I shudder reading the nonsense written by that buffoon calling him/herself 'Marxist' - what a misnomer if there ever was one.
No point arguing against such infantilism - shall I suggest to our friend that (s)he reads carefully Lenin's 'Infantile Disorder'.....shall I ask him/her to listen to Joe, take a leaf out of his book and calm down with a sugarless cup of tea.....I agree with the last message that head-the-balls like that one hurt the entire Left and progressive movement, and especially the party they profess to belong to....

by Ted's student grant Wed May 23, 2007 17:38

"if you think I am wrong then argue against me just don't come out with liberal shite and try to pretend you know what the term sectarianism means!~ "

I can almost feel the breath of the firing squad on my neck ... honestly, where to begin with your intolerant, fanatical rant? In the grown-up world, people can have sharp disagreements with others without insisting that they are frauds or charlatans. You haven't merely said that you disagree with others on the left, as you are perfectly entitled to do so. You have declared with the utmost clarity that it is impossible to be a serious left activist unless you are a member of the Socialist Party - in others words, everyone else on the left, of any affiliation or none, is completely worthless and contemptible.

You are clearly a crude, authoritarian fanatic who is incapable of tolerating any kind of disagreement. Yours is the sort of mentality that did so much damage to the socialist movement in the twentieth century. I have no doubt that if you were ever in a position of power you would happily send anyone who didn't share your point of view to prison. Your hate-filled dismissal of basic democratic tolerance as "liberal shite" and your ludicrously misplaced arrogance would be sinister ("pretend you know what the term sectarianism means!", oh lordy lord, I suppose you're going to purge the dictionary now and lay down the following definition "sectarian - anyone who disagrees with me"), but only if they weren't so laughable. Grow up you daft keyboard Chekist and try acquiring a sense of humour.

by Marxist Wed May 23, 2007 17:31

The reason why before the election all the main parties have ruled out coalition with SF has nothing to do with SF's policies. It is because they don't want to hand their opponents a political coup during the campaign that they could use against them. Sinn Fein are pleading with FF and FG to let them be into government with them. They have adopted pro-big business policies to make themselves more acceptable. Mary Lou refused to rule it coalition with the PDs. Nothing left at all about the leadership of SF, they are FF Mark 2.
The reason why FF or FG haven't mentioned doing a deal with the SP is because we have made it very clear that we would not support them.

by Marxist Wed May 23, 2007 17:25

Ted - Ooops my son, you've really let the cat out of the bag there now haven't you?

No not at all. I was stating the obvious. You ask a member of any political party and they will tell you the same thing. If they don't then you should question why they are in that party. If I was to say I think all other left groups are politically wrong that is my opinion and I have the right to say and think that. If I say that the SWP are not socialists it is because I believe that, if you think I am wrong then argue against me just don't come out with liberal shite and try to pretend you know what the term sectarianism means!~

by TD Wed May 23, 2007 17:21

4!

GAAW (Galway Alliance Against War) is also doing its duty?

by TD - Cosantoiri Siochana Wed May 23, 2007 17:15

Why did Fahey give away € billions of Ireland’s natural resources in the Oil and Gas Deal to multi-national corporations, Shell and Statoil, during his time as Marine Minister?
Last week on a hoarding in Galway's Westside Shopping Center, Cosantoiri Siochana activists vented their anger at the censorship by omission, the wilful failure by the mainstream media and political parties to address the most salient election issue; the elephant in Ireland's cupboard fouling the international respect we once had as a neutral nation, the abuse of Shannon Airport by war criminals and their facilitators in the Dail.
Two day's later, adjacent to our brush work, Fianna Fail provocatively tacked up three election placards, today, in a joint action with Galway Shell to Sea activists we riposted.

Is it not self-evident that Ireland is now the shameless bought whore of global corporate and American imperial power, steeped in corruption so deep that returning were as difficult as go o'er and beyond the wit and strenght of the mythical Hercules even if was granted a thousand years to clean up Ireland (for his fifth labor, he successfully purged, in a day, the shit of 3,000 oxen accumulated over 30 years in the Augean stables)?.

TEXT OF "ASK FRANK" POSTER

Before letting Frank Fahey TD
or Fianna Fáil represent you again,
THINK TWICE!

The Galway Shell to Sea Ask Frank Fahey Campaign
calls on YOU to ask Frank about…

Why did he give away € billions of Ireland’s natural resources in the Oil and Gas Deal to multi-national corporations Shell and Statoil during his time as Marine Minister?
see www.mayogasinfo.com and www.shelltosea.com

Why did he agree that the Irish people would have to buy back our own gas at going market rates?

Why, for the first time in the history of the state, were Compulsory Acquisition Orders granted to a profit-driven company for the Corrib Gas Pipeline, across land owned by local farmers?

How much was paid for the Four hundred acres of Coilte Land that the Gas terminal is being built on and where is this money now?

Why is his ‘Lost at Sea’ scheme, where 74% of the €2 million went to two of Frank’s constituents under investigation by the Ombudsman?

Why did Frank claim that he had a "hazy recollection" of a payment from Monarch Properties and meetings with lobbyist Frank Dunlop?

Ali, fish monger,Shell to Sea/anti-war activist and all round affable good guy

by Ted's student grant Wed May 23, 2007 16:46

"Tom we are the only serious left and if there are genuine socialists, lefts and community activists who want to join in a serious struggle for socialism then they should join the Socialist Party."

Ooops my son, you've really let the cat out of the bag there now haven't you? Your comrades were doing their best to fend off the accusations of sectarianism, they may not have been convincing many people but at least they tried. Then you have to go and say that! "We are the only serious group, anyone who is serious must join us, if they don't join us they can't be real socialists!" WOW! That's really special that is! Ya know, that's the very sort of attitude that ultimately leads to people being imprisoned or shot because they don't agree with the party line.

Doing wonders for your party's reputation comrade, keep it up...

by NSDA Wed May 23, 2007 14:45

It's interesting that Fianna Fail and Fine Gael have both ruled out making deals with Sinn Fein.

The politics of Sinn Fein are considered too far to the left.

Why do the corporate parties never rule out a deal with the Socialist Party? Would they accept support from Higgins the way Haughey co-opted Gregory back in the 1980's? Or do they just not care about the tiny SP?

by Dialectician Wed May 23, 2007 14:02

I have had enough of these cfriticisms . The key points are as follows:

1. We are absolutely right. Everyone else is absolutely wrong.
2. Throne is a swine. So are all our other ex-members who have the nerve now to criticise us. They never amounted to much in the first place. There is no room for sentimentality in revolutionary politics.
3. Peter Hadden is a genius.
4. Anyone who wants to change society should join the socialist party. Otherwise, they can fuck off.
5. We have full and free internal debate. It is a coincidence that we all agree on absolutely all major points.
6. We permit factions. It is a coincidence that no one bothers to form one.
7. We have the right to recall our leaders. It is a coincidence that no one ever recalls any.
8. We have full and frank internal debate on a variety of questions. The working class is not entitled to know what form this takes - unless and until it joins the Socialist Party. Otherwise, they can fuck off too.
9. We have at least 500 members in Ireland. The reason you can't see them is that, on membership, we confer an invisibility cloak, thereby enabling us to avoid state surveillance. This is particularly important in Northern Ireland.
10. Our influence internationally is growing, growing, growing all the time.
11. Tommy Sheridan is not an unstable demogogue.
12. Splitting the SSP is a step towards socialist unity. You must think this through dialectically.

The revolution is imminent. Forward!

by GI reader Wed May 23, 2007 14:02

Campaign to deface FF posters

Campaign to deface FF posters
by Marie Madden

Galway Independent 23/5/2007

A group known as 'Galway Cosantorai Siochana' has launched a campaign to deface Fianna Fáil posters in Galway City.

Posters all over the city have been doctored to promote anti-war messages. The campaign is in protest to US warplanes being allowed to refuel at Shannon. The group claims that 'Ireland's complicity in US war crimes is THE election issue' and has tried to highlight their concerns through defacing hoardings and election paraphernalia.

In a post on website www.indymedia.ie the perpetrators said that "outraged but not surprised at, what amounts to a mainstream media/political parties cosy conspiracy not to make Ireland's aiding and abetting of the attack on Iraq an electoral issue, two anti-war activists early today (Thursday 17 May) took to Galway's streets to say our piece through paint brushes and the adbusting of Ahern's election placards."

The group said it also took issue with the government's turning a 'blind eye' to the Rossport/Shell situation.

by Libertarian Infusion Wed May 23, 2007 13:53

Fianna Fáil and Independent Newspapers have refused to give details of a meeting which took place between senior party figures and Tony O'Reilly before the start of the election campaign.

Neither the party nor the newspaper would say who attended the meeting and what undertakings, if any, were given.

Minister for Finance Brian Cowen confirmed on Monday that Fianna Fáil had met O'Reilly to puts its position formally "to a proprietor of newspapers to see what way we can get our message across".

However, asked yesterday if at that meeting Tony had promised to give his support to Fianna Fáil, Minister for Foreign Affairs Dermot Ahern said: "I don't know. I wasn't present at that meeting. In fact, I didn't know that meeting took place until I read the paper."

Speaking at Fianna Fáil's final election briefing before polling day, Mr Ahern said: "It would be normal practice to meet with owners of papers . . . I have been on delegations before . . . to different papers." He said from what he understood, there has been a discussion on the issue of coverage of the election but not support for the party.

Minister Séamus Brennan said that perhaps all the party leaders should be asked what editors they met. "My understanding is various meetings went on between all the political party leaders and editors."

Minister Mary Hanafin said: "Looking back, I don't think anyone could have accused the media of supporting us." A spokesman for Sir Anthony said last night he had "no comment to make" on the matter. A Fianna Fáil spokeswoman said the party had no further comment to make other than what Mr Cowen said at the party's briefing on Monday.

Mr Cowen said on Monday an opportunity had arisen to meet O'Reilly and "any meetings that are private are private". There was no question of corporate interests being discussed but it was a discussion about the future and election preparations.

The meeting with O'Reilly is a major issue. Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats facilitated him some years ago over Eircom, a takeover that did terrible damage to the interests of this country. And it was, or should have been, known that this would be the outcome, and yet, for reasons unexplained, the deal went ahead. It made further millions for O'Reilly and damaged the spread of broadband to the detriment of the economy and the country.

Briefly what happened was this. O'Reilly, through yet another of his corporate manifestations, Valentia, bid for the takeover of Eircom - this was after the disastrous privatisation. O'Reilly needed the backing of Esop, the entity that controlled the 14.9 per cent owned by the workers, but there was a complication. The takeover would expose Esop to capital gains tax, and they would not agree until this was resolved. A commitment was made that the tax laws would be changed to protect Esop against a tax liability. Valentia got Eircom, even though it was obvious from the manner in which O'Reilly and his pals were proposing to finance the deal that it would result in a creaming-off of profits from Eircom to pay off interest, diverting money from infrastructural investment.

Wasn't that a handsome gesture by the Government for the controller of Independent Newspapers, which recommended Fianna Fáil to voters in 1997?

(Copytheft -some- from Irish Times this morning)

by sper Wed May 23, 2007 13:50

Tom we are the only serious left and if there are genuine socialists, lefts and community activists who want to join in a serious struggle for socialism then they should join the Socialist Party. If I didn't believe this then I wouldn't be a member of the SP I would go and join one of the other groups you mentioned. Why does this surprise you? I have been calling to doors for months and not once has anyone said to me that the left should get together not once has anyone mention to me or any other sp member that I know of that we should have had an election alliance. You mention silly attacks on others. What silly attacks, I can only see political criticisms of others. If you don't agree with those criticisms then you should try to refute them.

by Tom O'D - none Wed May 23, 2007 13:26

I don't necessarily agree with everything John Throne says, but the point about sectarianism on the left is well made.
The SP do excellent work on the ground and Joe Higgins is a credit to them. But others do excellent work on the ground too. It is the least attractive side of the SP that they respond in such a personal manner to the argument. They sometimes appear to think that they are the only serious left. The silly attacks on others seem only to confirm that this is indeed their attitude.
I don't know how many votes are in it, but the issue of divisions and sectarianism on the left is a live issue amongst left-leaning people. But it is perfectly obvious that the SP do not want to address this issue. This is a pity, especially when CIL, SWP, PBP, etc are making moves on the question. This would back up John's point that the SP see themselves getting ahead of all the other left parties and groups with TDs and Councillors. They might (or might not) be successful in this aim, but doesn't deal with the desire of community activists, trade unionists and anti war people who want to join together, but not under the domination of any one party or group.
As I said, I think the tone of the SP responses shows they have no inclination to change their attitude any time soon. Pity.

by Jolly Red Giant - Socialist Party/CWI Wed May 23, 2007 11:38

Listen if the time was right and the mood existed for anything concrete on the left to develop it would happen even if the SP was not involved. Is John Throne and others actually suggesting that such a development is impossible without a leading role being taken by the SP? They are actually giving us a position within the working class movement that even we do not think we have.

by Groucho Wed May 23, 2007 11:34

"To paraphrase a teenage boy; "My list is bigger than your list!" "

Well seeing as you have lost hundreds of members since JT left Ireland in 1983, my list is the longest. You had 500 members back in 1983, if you're honest then you will admit that you dont have that many members now.

by Marxist Wed May 23, 2007 11:25

We can all list names ...some of those who are still members; Peter Hadden, Joe Higgins, Kevin McLoughlin, Stephen Boyd, Fiona O'Loughlin, Ciaran Crossey, Mick Barry, Ray McLouglin, Tommy Black, Davy Bell, Gerry Lynch, Ciaran Mulholland, Padraig Mulholland, Niall Mulholland (thats 3 -1 in the Mulholland family!) etc, I could continue with many more names. To paraphrase a teenage boy; "My list is bigger than your list!"

by Groucho Wed May 23, 2007 11:15

"John Throne was not the driving force behind the building of the CWI in Ireland; this is an egotistical delusion. He was only one of many members, and unlike John many of them are still members of the CWI. "

Still members? You mean Bill Webster, Finn Geany, Dermot Connolly, Martin Walsh, Joan Collins, Paddy Smyth, Norma Prendeville, Denis Tourish, Jimmy Kelly, Marc Mulholland. I could go on but I think you get my point.

by Marxist Wed May 23, 2007 10:19

Let’s just cut out all the crap from these postings.
John Throne was not the driving force behind the building of the CWI in Ireland; this is an egotistical delusion. He was only one of many members, and unlike John many of them are still members of the CWI.
People joining and leaving socialist organisations has been a reality of the class struggle from its very inception. Every socialist organisation that has existed has gone through this experience and in most cases it is due to the prevailing political conditions that exist in society and globally, i.e., many people involved in the rigours of the class struggle get worn down by it and demoralised. Also in many instances it simply comes down to an individual deciding that a life committed to struggle is not for them.
The Socialist Party has approximately the same number of members in Ireland now as it did in the mid 1980s. But the Socialist Party is a far stronger organisation now than then and it has a far bigger base of support amongst the working class. That is undeniable.
The Socialist Party has already explained why it did not get involved in an electoral alliance. The main reason is not whether it would increase or decrease the number of votes that we will receive because as others have said it wouldn’t have effected our vote in any way.
The main reason was the criteria, which was being proposed as the basis for forming an alliance. It was proposed that anyone could be involved in the alliance as long as they said they were against coalition. There are some candidates standing in the election who were being proposed as part of an alliance that we could not endorse. We are not prepared to give an endorsement to candidates who are not genuinely opposed to coalition with right wing parties. Their politics or records were not considered to be important enough by the people behind the idea of the alliance. A number of the candidates being proposed as part of the alliance were Labour Party members or recent Labour members whose only reason for standing in the election was that they had not been selected as Labour candidates. Let’s just spell it out. If they had been selected as Labour candidates they would have supported the electoral pact with Fine Gael and post election even coalition with Fianna Fail. Do you seriously think the Socialist Party should be in an alliance with these type of opportunists and careerists?
We are also not prepared to give an endorsement to the SWP candidates. The reason for this is obvious to most people. The SWP are super opportunists with no political principles who are swiftly moving to the right. The politics in their election material has been diluted so much that it is similar to something that the Greens could produce. It isn’t even as radical as Labour’s programme from the 1970s and 1980s.
John Throne says we are being sectarian. He is not the only one who makes this claim, but it is a childish jibe from the politically demoralised who are prepared to cling to anyone politically in an opportunist way because they can’t see an alternative. A drowning man will cling to anything to stay afloat.
The Socialist Party is not the only organisation who rejected this alliance proposal; the ISN and the Workers Party rejected it as well.

by Jolly Red Giant - Socialist Party/CWI Wed May 23, 2007 09:36

As a member of the CWI who has been a member since John Throne was part of the organisation in Ireland, I will concur with 'former member' who says Throne played a very valuable role in founding and building the CWI in Ireland in the 1970's and early 1980's. No one ever denies this. What is at question is the suggestion that those who took over the leadership some how managed to undo all the good work of Throne (and Tourish and Geaney and etc. etc.).

As for the missing 500, well I would be surprised if there were not substantially more than 500 people who have joined and left the CWI in Ireland over the past 35 years. That is the nature of revolutionary politics. We have had this discussion before, time and time again. Nothing remains static, linear or inevitable. To suggest that just because we have not continued to grow then somehow the leadership is at fault. Throne does acknowledge that the objective situation has been a factor, but this is more to give credience to the claim than the real cause was the 'sectarian' nature of the SP.

The criticism of Throne comes from the fact that SP members working on the ground in Ireland are only too well aware of the lack of interest (never mind enthusiasm) for the building of some sort of left formation. Throne does not understand this and in reality his view is very similar to the attitude of Collins and Connolly. The SWP are dumbing down policies in a similar fashion to Respect and in one area now appear to be running a sort of celebrity campaign for votes.

We want it to happen. We want to see the formation of a broad left movement. Unfortunately, pre-empting such a move would have led to it being still-born and thrown back the work for a period. It may have been possible to formulate some sort of limited slate for this election but it was clear to us at the outset that others wanted to include individual candidates that had no record of work on the ground. It is a dis-service to the working class to behave in such a fashion and we cannot be part of it.

Finally I wish every success to the left candidates tomorrow. I genuinely hope that there are more left TD's than Joe Higgins, Clare Daly and Seamus Healy on Friday and if there are we will work with them in as constructive fashion as possible. However, just because 4 or 5 lefts are elected does not mean there will be a shift in attitude among workers that will see the development of a left party.

by SP supporter Wed May 23, 2007 08:44

My remarks abour Healy in Tipp and Joan Collins was not intended as an attack on them. I genuinely do want them to do well. It was meant to show how 1 Cllr and 1 TD based in other areas has little impact on the events in other places due to their lack of national profile. Of course Seamus Healy is 'anonymous' to many outside Tipperary or the workers movement. That was never meant of an insult but a statement of fact.

I want to clarify being rude or 'arrogant' is not 'left sectarianism' (which 'droning' was not btw). Left Sectarianism is putting narrow short-term political interests ahead of the greater good for the movement. I don't think the SP can be accused of that. John Throne and others accuse the SP of only wanting to get Cllrs and TDs ahead of others. So now the SP are to blame for having success! They put forward candidates and got elected. This should be welcomed not attacked as being sectarian. If the SP win 2 seats tomorrow there will be some on the left harking at them from the sidelines for being sectarian because 2 of their members will be playing a key role in left-wing opposition to the new government. Now who is sectarian?

by Former SP Member Wed May 23, 2007 08:29

Members of the SP are at times a funny bunch. In articulating one position, they seem to unintentionally bear out quite the opposite position. Endless droning is good example - his tone towards a political criticism (and one from within his own tradition) is contemptuous, dismissive, arrogant - in short, an excellent example of left sectarianism. Examples are numerous. Thus when John Throne identifies his contribution to building the SP in the 70s this is decried as a 'self-serving version of the history of the Militant'. I am afraid it was nothing of the sort. As a member from that time, I and many of the missing 500 (that is, almost all of the members of that era who have since left) can confirm that John was the driving force behind the establishment of the organisation nationally, inspired its members far beyond what any other leader was capable of, and had a huge effect in convincing many people of socialist ideas. Perhaps 'endless droning' was in his or her swaddling clothes at the time, and hence can't recall. The official histories of his/ her organisation will be of little help - as was the practice under Stalinism, anyone who falls foul of the regime at the top is airbrushed out of the record. S/he is free to criticism John's arguments. But to deny or belittle his role in building the SP is the kind of contemptuous attitude towards history that gets the SP a very bad name.

by Endless Droning Wed May 23, 2007 03:50

I'm sorry to detract from your moderately entertaining attempts to play the martyr, abused and vilified by all around you, but you'll find not a single word of "abuse and slander" in my comment.

I did not describe you as "delusional", "off the wall" or "suffering from madness". I did describe the approach of your last posting as being "the politics of delusion", and I stand by that. Similarly "SP member" above, while he or she did make a rather unfair remark about Seamas Healy, did not describe you as mad or delusional. He or she did describe you as "off the wall", but only specifically on a particular issue, and described one of your views on that issue rather than you yourself as mad. I rather strongly suspect that you are not such a shrinking violet as to be seriously wounded by characterisation of one of your views as crazed or bizarre. So please, leave the amateur theatrics at home.

I am not particularly interested in your self-serving version of the history of the Militant, except to note with some amusement its similarity to the only slightly more reliable Greek myth in which Zeus gives birth to a fully formed Athena directly from his forehead. As for your extremely odd convinction that the Socialist Party encourages its members to spend time during an election campaign being mean to you on an internet forum, well I don't want to inspire another bout of theatrical martrydom by laughing at your apparently elephantine ego so I'll let that pass.

Getting back to the meat of your posting, it appears to consist of a claim that a few ex-members of the Socialist Party and members of other left organisations think that we are evil, nasty, sectarians. Do you know something, John? I could have told you that myself. There are many working class people, not members of any political party, helping out with our election campaign. They apparently do not view us in a similar light and I'm rather more interested in their assessment than in yours.

There is nothing we could do to get the candidates of other parts of the left elected. It is simply not in our gift. They will get votes based on their work on the ground, the ideas they put forward, the response they get in the communities they are working in and the political situation in those areas. Seamas Healy will undoubtedly do very well, as will people as diverse as Joan Collins, John Halligan and Richard Boyd Barrett. Others will do very much worse. Either way our aid would not be significant.

As hasalready been said, the converse is also true. The endorsement of the best councillor in Crumlin or the best TD in Munster or the face of Dun Laoghaire seafront would not make a blind bit of difference in our election campaigns in Corduff or Gurranabraher. It might interest you to know that not one other left group even exists in any of the constituencies we stand in, which I'm sure even you would concede makes it somewhat difficult to work with them on the ground. Making even more arguments for a new party of the working class, like the ones Joe was making on national radio the other night, will not create new activists, just dying to get involved in our election campaigns. If only we really did have the magic powers our critics seem to imagine are at our command!

Your post attracted derision, John, not because our sinister leaders decreed that you must be attacked. It was derided because it showed no understanding of the reality of the Irish left and little knowledge of the attitudes of people outside the sectarian ghetto.

Finally, I repeat the comments above about principled left wing candidates. Good luck to all of them.

by John Throne - Labors Militant Voice Wed May 23, 2007 00:24 loughfinn at aol dot com

In two responses to my email by SP supporters they have said I was delusional, off the wall, suffering from madness. This is the norm when discussing with the SP. Abuse and slander. At the same time they have distorted my email by suggesting I did not believe the SP's main support would be from their work on the ground. As the first member of the Militant (later the SP) in the South and the first full timer of Militant in Ireland as a whole these new members who are encouraged to attack me have nothing to teach me about working on the ground as the basis for building an organization. It was I who laid the basis for the excellent work the SP does on the ground.

However when I left Ireland there were approximately 500 members in what is now the SP. There are many many less now. Sure it is partly the world and Irish objective situation which has become more difficult. But it is not only that. It is also the left sectarianism of the SP. I regularly meet former members of the SP, good workers who are looking for a political alternative, discuss with members of other left organizations, and as well as other things there is one thing that always comes up. That is the left sectarianism of the SP. The SP's focus on building its own organization rather than building left unity and working towards a workers party. These activists are not stupid. They know that the SP holds the position they do in order to try and get as many TD's and councillors as it can before any other left party can get a TD and councillors. This is left sectarianism. Many of these activists I refer to above would still be in the SP, would have joined the SP, there would be a better chance of unity with other left groups with the SP, there would be an increased vote for the SP if the SP did not practise left sectarianism.

It is possible that the SP can fail to win a seat or two in this election by a handful of votes. A clear stand against left sectarianism could make all the difference. You would have more activists working for you and more votes.

And finally, SP members do you not see how it confirms my position about your left sectarianism when you call me delusional, off the wall, suffering from madness.

John Throne.

by Amused Wed May 23, 2007 00:17

" I do agree with Thone's first remarks about wishing best of luck to all the decent left-wing candidates and I hope they get elected."

All this after a bit of rant. Your points about Throne may be valid but to call Joan Collins, an ex-SP member, just a councillor from Crumlin and Seamus Healy an anonymous TD from Tipp doesn't do your creditiblity much good. I'd say you should keep you good lucks to yourself. Care to name any 'decent left-wing candidates?

by SP supporter Tue May 22, 2007 19:17

Throne is off the wall on this one. Do you really think that more working class people would back SP in places like Mulhuddart, Swords, Clonsilla, Blanchardstown, Balbriggan, Tallaght, Cork Northside, etc if they knew that they had an alliance with a councillor in Crumlin, a candidate in Dún Laoghaire and an anonymous TD from Tipp. Get real. People will back SP candidates (and other left candidates) in this election because of the work they do on the ground on campaigns. To think abstract 'blocs' or 'slates' will bring more votes is madness. To think such a 'slate' would suddenly spark the beginning of a significant swing to the left in Irish society is madness. Mr. Throne has a bit too much faith in elections and he's not looking at the reality of the expereince of the Irish working class today. I do agree with Thone's first remarks about wishing best of luck to all the decent left-wing candidates and I hope they get elected.

by Eoin Tue May 22, 2007 16:56

Remember which TDs voted to support the invasion of Iraq, providing overflight and refueling facilities to the United States war effort. See list of names and text of the Dail vote here: http://www.indymedia.ie/article/28244

by Endless droning Tue May 22, 2007 16:56

John Throne asks: How much more support it would get if it was seen as leading the struggle against left sectarianism and for unity of the left in the election campaign.

I can confidently answer that the Socialist Party would be unlikely to get even one more vote in Swords or Mulhuddart or Tallaght or Gurranabraher if it was seen as "leading the struggle against left sectarianism" in the election campaign.

I would be surprised if even one person raised "left sectarianism" as an issue that would effect the way they vote. And if, by some chance, there is someone in Blanch with the same obsessions as our friend across the water, is anyone seriously suggesting that they are going to vote for Fine Gael or the like because of it? It's a nonsense.

The Socialist Party (which is involved in two close election battles) will get support based on the work it does on the ground and the ability or otherwise of its political ideas to get an echo in those communities. It will also get some straightforward anti-establishment votes. And I suppose the odd person who fills in their ballot at random. That last category is likely to be considerably greater than any group of workers which refuses to back them because they supposedly aren't "leading the struggle against left sectarianism", a group the total membership membership of which I strongly suspect tends towards zero.

This stuff is the politics of delusion.

by Charlie Tue May 22, 2007 16:26

Latest odds on Bertie Ahern to retain his job... 1/2 on. That means that the gambling public reckon he has about a 66% chance of staying where he is.

On Friday morning it was about 38% (odds were 13/8), but only for a couple of hours.

I've run a detailed statistical analysis of the constituency poll trends (and combined it with a little bit of insider knowledge on Labour's post-election plans)....

I predict that FFwill be about 20 seats short of 83, but Labour will step in "for the good of the country to keep SF out of Government" and give FF power in return for 4 ministries.

I hope Rabbite's a good minister for finance.

by john throne - labors militant voice Tue May 22, 2007 15:44 loughfinn at aol dot com

I see my old organization the SP is running four candidates in the election. There is the possibility it could get two elected. I hope it gets all four elected. I see that Joan Collins is running and I hope she also gets elected. And there are the candidates from other left organizations and united fronts which are running. I also hope they get elected.

However I would like to say that the chances of election of these candidates has been reduced by the inability of them and their organizations to work in unity in the election campaign. Rather than a united left campaign in the elections we have a whole number of left candidates and organizations.

It is a mistake to have two left candidates running in one area. It is also a mistake not to campaign as a united left front in general in the election. When this is the approach the working class voter sees the left sectarianism of the left and is turned off. They see the disunity as representing a wasted vote.

I am sure that as usual the tendency will be for each left group to blame the other for the problem. But this is only making the the situation worse. Finger pointing will only weaken and undermine the left further. What is necessary is to first identify and spell out the problem of left sectarianism and how this damages the left.

Then conduct a campaign against this scourge. Not conduct a campaign against the other left parties but against left sectarianism. This campaign should include left organisations if necessary standing down in some areas to show their commitment to fight left sectarianism and to challenge the left sectarianism of other groups.

My old organization the SP has the main responsibility in this regard. This is so because it has the position in the Dail and a number of councillors. It can take the lead more than any other group. Unfortunately instead it is obsessed with getting as many of its own members elected not in increasing the representation of the working class. It is putting its own interests above that of the working class. This is a serious mistake and does serious damage to the working class.

From other points of view also the SP position is incorrect. By its obsession with only getting its own candidates elected it damages the left vote in general. And this approach also damages the vote it will get for its own candidates and the building of its own party. How much more support it would get if it was seen as leading the struggle against left sectarianism and for unity of the left in the election campaign.

by Seanín McGuire Tue May 22, 2007 10:41

was talking with cousins in skerries over weekend. Clare Daly looks like a dead cert for getting into the dail. Labour have fallen apart there due to internal squabbles, terrible candidate, fg/sp squeeze & lack of campaign. So, it looks like SP will have 2 TDs (presuming Joe Higgins gets in again!)

by Libertarian Infusion Tue May 22, 2007 09:52

Senior Fianna Fáil figures met the head of Independent Newspapers, Sir Anthony O'Reilly, before the election campaign began, Minister for Finance Brian Cowen has confirmed.

Questioned about the matter yesterday, Mr Cowen said "an opportunity" had arisen to hold a meeting with Sir Anthony.

"Any meetings that are private are private. It wasn't about anything other than Fianna Fáil putting its position formally to a proprietor of newspapers to see what way we can get our message across.

"There was no question of corporate interests being discussed, or anything like that. It was simply a discussion about the future, preparations for the election."

Replying to questions from Vincent Browne, Mr Cowen said he had not met the proprietors of any other national newspapers before the campaign began.

Asked why he had not met others, he said: "For no other reason than that it didn't arise. An opportunity arose and we met and that was it. There was no big deal about it."

Asked if Sir Anthony had raised any of his own business interests, Mr Cowen said: "No. Not at all. It was simply a question of trying to make sure from our point of view that the Fianna Fáil position can be ably represented in all media outlets. Discussions take place all the time with proprietors, presenters and everybody else to get that across," he said, speaking during Fianna Fáil's morning press conference.

Rejecting any suggestions that private undertakings were offered, or sought, Mr Cowen said: "That isn't the way we operate.

"Nor was it requested. I am just telling you the truth," he told Browne.

(Copy theft from Irish Times this Morning)

by x Tue May 22, 2007 00:37

... even in most constituencies, the candidate who gets the lowest vote will still have more support than the WSM (after 20+ years of existence in this country, continually trying to sell the anti-election message)

Go figure.

by 1st May Branch WSM Mon May 21, 2007 22:19

Details of a public meeting on the anarchist alternative to this election farce can be found at http://www.wsm.ie/story/2443

by Man of Mayo Mon May 21, 2007 21:48

Mayo man COWLEY will be lected on the 1st count,( witth MURRAY S/F next. ) That is the general feeling around Mayo. They didn't throw it all away........seems to be what everyone is saying.......& the other factor, with an ear to the ground is The Price of the posters People are not told how much those posters and campaign costs and all the T.V. appearances of the other parties.
........

by Vótáil Sinn Féin - Ógra Shinn Féin Mon May 21, 2007 21:44 osfnational at yahoo dot ie

As this vitally important general election comes closer I want to make a special and direct appeal to young voters. I know there is a widespread cynicism among the public and among young people, in particular, about standards in public life and deep frustration that the political system does not deal with the everyday cares and concerns of our youth. That includes a failure to provide much needed creative, cultural, sporting and other facilities in our communities often leaving the public house as the only place for socialising.


For full post:

http://ograshinnfein.blogspot.com/2007/05/gerry-adams-u....html

Gerry Adams debates with ÓSF at Nat Congress, Nov '06

by CL Mon May 21, 2007 19:58

I agree with "crazy idea" electing Gerry Murray SF would make much more sense, if the new government decided that they are willing to tear up the agreement with shell and try another approach, then the chance of SF having the numbers to demand that happens is very likely.
electing Dr Cowley is futile, it wont matter , in the bigger picture even if independents are needed after the election, none of the major parties would touch Cowley with a ten foot bargepole.
His price to join with either side would be much too great for a single TD.
Now on the other hand SF with a possible 11 seats would have the muscle to demand at least a review of the entire project.
I will give my No1 to Murray, and I sincerely hope that when all the pre-election bluff has gone, the major parties will deal with SF.
So perhaps this sorry saga can have a happy ending after all!

by crazy idea Mon May 21, 2007 19:34

Or you could go mad and vote for Gerry Muray, someone who's been at every day of action, had motions passed at the County Council and the Sinn Féin ard fheis condemning the deal, and supported the Rossport people and the fight against Shell in every possible way...

Or is that just a crazy idea.

by cowley S2s Mon May 21, 2007 09:01

cowleys backing for shell to sea could cost him his seat, he will not be of any use to mayo voters because no matter who forms the next goverment cowley wont be part of it.
there is no way either ff or fg will ask cowley to join them if it means scrapping the deal with shell.
so why vote for him? unless you think his habit of walking out of the dail is useful.
he hasnt done one thing for the people of mayo since he was elected 5 years ago.
it would be better for mayo if mulhearn got elected instead, as a strong Fg would be much better for mayo.

by medicine Sun May 20, 2007 22:20

Cowley looks like a zombie in that youtube clip,for gods sake get a livley clip or he really is finished.
he sounds like he hasnt slept for days, he is worth a vote but this clip does him no favours.

by C Sun May 20, 2007 22:05

Look at the choices.

Ms Cooper-Flynn(she of NIB fame)
and the bould 'Enda' (what is Erris?)

yep!

These are the choices of the Mayo People.
Corruption and mealy-mouthed corprate shite- how and ever, the media does want us to
be really, really strong and go for the either/or option.

either : FF/PD or FG/Lab

????

by S Sun May 20, 2007 21:38

This video is essential to watch before anyone makes up their mind who to vote for: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjvyyPWw4_g

by sts/r Sun May 20, 2007 20:41

Dr garavin has released a statment of support for Dr Gerry Cowley, I think it should be printed in all local papers this week to help Gerry in his election campaign.


the statement reads
"As a candidate for Seanad Eireann, I wish to publicly pledge my personal support to Dr Jerry Cowley in the forthcoming general election.

Mayo needs, and has benefited from, a genuinely independent voice in Dail Eireann. This is essential in order to pursue local and national issues irrespective of political party or prevailing political fashion. I believe Jerry Cowley has shown courage and conviction on many issues over the last few years, particularly regarding health, social care provision and community development. On the Corrib gas question he has involved himself directly in an issue that has been contentious and difficult. The easier option would have been to have withdrawn and confined himself to banal platitudes from a distance. Instead, he has attempted to perform his representative duty and has sought to resolve the problem.

I hope that the voters of Mayo will recognise these qualities of commitment and leadership and give their support to Jerry Cowley."

by same old Sun May 20, 2007 19:29

it says in SF manafesto
"We would reverse the irresponsible policies of natural resource giveaway and official neglect of opportunities to raise non-tax revenue by investing in profitable public companies."
and
"to reclaim our natural resources and to develop renewable energy to guarantee a future for our children. "

It is easy to publish dribble such as that, but where is the actions/commitments to back it up?
I dont see anywhere, that they insist on the deal with shell being torn up and that the refinery has to go to sea.
same with labour, they were all bluff, until the election was called, now you dont hear them mention corib or shell to sea.
I suspect it wont matter who is in goverment next week, this refinery is unstoppable. even the greens are ignoring the issue.

by personal capacity Sun May 20, 2007 16:55

I suggest you download Sinn Féin's manifesto and do a search for "natural resources". http://www.sinnfeingeneralelection.com/en/manifesto

What is an "issue" in the election is often decided by the media, rather than the political parties, but if you read the manifesto you'll see that Sinn Fein at least has not been shy of raising the giveaway as a example of how not to run a country. If newspapers and TV and radio programmes don't want to concentrate on the issue then there is very little that politicos can do.

I personally saw a Sinn Fein spokesperson talk at length on the issue of natural resources and Corrib to an interviewer on camera, but of course when I saw the programme on TV there was no trace of that section.

The fact that the issue is not being brought up more by the media is a by-product of the fact that both FG and FF and pro-Shell and neither can use the Corrib issue to attack the other.

It's a strange political system when you can only have as Taoiseach someone from the "Chamber of Commerce Party".

by observer Sun May 20, 2007 10:38

We have heard for months that the shell to sea/ corrib gas would be a major issiue in the election.
from labour to SF to greens and others who promised that they would make it centeral to their campaign.
has any of them mentioned it in their manafesto?
cowley is the only one who has had to stand up in support of shell to sea, and he will be lucky to get elected.
maybe I am mistaken, has anybody seen the issiue mentioned as a major concern .

by grainne - corkshelltosea Sat May 19, 2007 19:33

cork shelltosea stop berties speech
old bertie has had it
Yesterday we found bertie in wilton shopping center in cork.Our Pat the Picket brought doctors costums just to confuse them all,We asked him them old difficult questions,and he shyly replied that "our natural resources are ours"he seemed right confused.We followed him through the centre chanting 'bertie pumps for shell"with his angry mob of fanatics roaring "five more years"it was hilarious.We hopped on bikes and meet him on patricks street where he was to deliver a speech but was instead brought on a very fast trip to the english market,where we met again,and complained again at the lame excuses for having our country being sold to both multi-greedy corps and war-monger countries.Very effective and lots of fun

by mot - respecting resources Fri May 18, 2007 23:00

a day in the life of berty
It was Edna Kennys turn last week, but today Berty had to meet local Activists.
Berty was on the campaign trail in Cork today, One of the first peoples hand Berty was to shake was a
comited acivist who told berty politly and clearly(fot rather a long time) that Berty should not have given Irish resources for a pitance and that the people of ireland would not stand for it.Then other activist holding a 'Berty pumps for shell' banner (the truth), and shouted bery pumps for shell from the start to the finish of his walk about in the shopping center.
Then hot on the trail of the campaign trail the 'activists' hopped on the bikes to meet berty on
Corks Patrick streets,
where upon meeting others we continued to tell berty the truth , that he does infact pump more for shell than he does the irish people.
Berty was so flustered or something by the percence of people telling him and the other street users the
truth that he canceled his speach on the street.

by Margaret Clarke - DkIT Young Greens Fri May 18, 2007 13:26 maggie.clarke at gmail dot com

Green Party Cllr Mark Dearey Facilitates Students getting home from Dublin to Vote
Green Party Councillor and General Election Candidate Mark Dearey has organised a bus for Louth students living or studying in Dublin who wish to get home to vote on Thursday evening of the 24th of May.
Maggie Clarke here of the DkIT Young Greens.

I would just like to help spread the message that there is a bus home to vote for students from Louth studying in Dublin. It will pick up at Nassau Street at 6pm on polling day and stop off in Drogheda, Ardee and Dundalk. Students can then be collected again to be dropped back to Dublin for about 10pm. If you have any family, friends son. daughters, nieces, nephews etc in Dublin who would like to avail of this service please pass on the information.
We're hoping to fill the buses and show Bertie that he was wrong to dismiss students by scheduling polling day on a Thursday. However, it doesn't matter what your political persuasion is. This is about empowering students to exercise their democratic right and not be left out because they are studying away from home.

To book a place on the student bus e-mail your name and phone number to margaret@louthgreenparty.org or phone 085 1166639 for more details.

by Arch-capitalist Fri May 18, 2007 10:17

if we are nearer Boston than Berlin, could we have a Bostonian sales tax of 6% and not VAT of 21%? I'll settle for 10% in 2007-10 as the pols have so many promises to pay for.

It would make things like children's shoes much cheaper.

by Bernie - Irish Socialist Network Fri May 18, 2007 00:40

Dunno, ask the author

by Bernie ISN Thu May 17, 2007 22:31

Bernie,excuse my ignorance but what does ISN stand for?. The bet Bertie has on,What Charity will the lolly go to should he win?

by Ger Thu May 17, 2007 19:55

The powder and the puff
This is categorised as political satire, but it needs saying;-

Nobody likes Enda Kenny.

It has taken a good softening of Fianna Fail by the corporate pro-EU
interests to get the man into the telly studio to face off in the media
led election campaign to create the new political regime.

We all know this, everyone knows.
Now has anyone seen the really spooky posters of his transformation to a wee blueshirt
statesman on the streets of Dublin?

They have plucked his brows and darkened his hair- he looks like Tony Blair!


Tonight the much awaited TV debate will be on air and people too fecking lazy
or coked, or tabloid led will see before them MR Kenny in His glory.

Angela Merckel has dipped her toe in the Water saying, indeed, he would be best
for Ireland- yeah right, the leader of Christian Conservatism, who has the address
book for Bush and Benedict does not get the little subtleties of Irish Political life.

Will Enda tut about Brian Cowen and the inhalation problem?
Will Enda tut, tut about the failure in Policy in relation to child abuse?
Will Enda tut,tut,tut about corruption?

He has shown himself a useful lackey to Mc Dowell and a willing collaborator
in the anti-democratic policies of the present Government.

His way has been softened for him- all he has to do is keep quiet on emotive
issues and take up where Mc Dowell left off. easy enough.

Most people don't buy it.
They all hate him.
He is a poppet who offers no real alternative to what ordinary people are sick of.

I am very interested in where he stands on
1 . Gay Rights.
2. Abortion rights.
3. The EU rapid reaction force.
4.The 2015 trade agreement with the US.
5. Institutional abuse of children by the Catholic Church.

The Bould Boy!

by The name is "Jake"- Jake the Muss Thu May 17, 2007 10:08

Have to say Joe's red flags in Dublin central are very eyecatching - for a second would nearly make you think he's running for a left wing party and not the blueshirts second eleven.

by To Joe Thu May 17, 2007 01:50

To answer Joes question about not voting for Sinn Fein. Simply vote for any party which supports reunification and kicking the brits out of ireland for good. Not a bunch of people who value money and comfort over patriotism and pissing on the graves of the heros who gave their lives for it.

by Joke Wed May 16, 2007 21:18

I see socialism will be delivered solely by electing John O Neil. And in some sort of municipal manner, deliverd first in Dublin North Central. Some sort of socialism in one constituency ;-)

Funny none the less, though missing in an understanding of the qualitative differences between theclass ofrces represented by the establishment parties... as I'm sure the sparts would say.

by w. - wsm (pers cap) Wed May 16, 2007 18:21

I have to admit the ISN have produced a pretty funny and memorable flier there. Fair play to you, I look forward to the trolls asking why you didnt list the swp, sp and 57 other varietys of trotskyist pizza.

by Bernie Wed May 16, 2007 13:43

:: Continuing the culinary theme, Irish Socialist Network candidate John O'Neill has come up with a pizza menu-style election poster - complete with the tasty slogan: A Slice Of Socialism In Dublin North West. On it, he dismisses the Bertie Ahern Double Dough Pizza as "greasy, cheesy and full of hot air."

In full

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1265339,00....html

by Bernie - ISN Wed May 16, 2007 13:34

Enjoy

back_isn.pdf 0.26 Mb