Bus to Rossport for Day of Action

by Johnny H - CYM Mon Aug 27, 2007 04:07

Solidarity and all that! Cya on the 14th!

Shell To Hell!

by Shelly Mon Aug 27, 2007 08:59

Did anyone see Hard Talk with Willie Corduff on it?

by Fearbolg - S2S Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:53

Haven't seen it yet . Hoping to have copy for distribution soon.

by I seen it Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:51

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsa/n5ctrl/progs/07/hardtalk/cor...g.ram

by Shelly Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:54

It's well worth a watch

by Shelly Mon Aug 27, 2007 15:28

He made a complete spectacle of himself. Good spokesperson for S2S. Or should I say, for Shell!

by Seán Mon Aug 27, 2007 15:42

Is the issue about Ireland's natural resources not something of a red herring in relation to the Corrib pipeline?

It's something that the government is to blame for and doesn't really have any bearing on the project itself.

by Erris Exile Mon Aug 27, 2007 17:21

I've just watched the video and have the following observations. Correct me if I am wrong:

6.37 minutes - he says an OIL REFINERY. Only gas is being treated there.

8.40 - gas is not usually cleaned at sea - look at the 3 terminals at Bacton for instance (Theddlethorpe, St Fergus, Point of Ayr, etc. are others)

13.00 - 27 jobs long term - I thought the S2S campaign said that 50 springs?. But what about the supplier and maintenance etc - every skilled job indirectly generates another 2-3 days.

14.00 - Shell doesn't treat or process gas at sea. They do with Oil.

18.00 - I know of workers who have been threatened (I know the people and area there very well) . What he says is not entirely true. The presence of large pickets at the front gate is not intimidatory?!?

20.45 - he says he doesn't take this award for himself - so where is the prize money going ($100k or something like that)? If he is accepting this on behalf of the community surely the money is being divided out equally amongst the community members?

22.00 - the peat removal is now complete - what hassle on the Sharmore community was caused? From what I know none apart from the protest.

Twisting the facts for the UK media perhaps? A tough interviewer and he didn't step up to the mark.

If he didn't say "You Know" the interview would have only been half the lenght. Ok, tounge in cheek I know, he was nervous granted. I sit on the fence with this project but I have to say he did S2S no favours at all.

by Fearbolg - S2S Mon Aug 27, 2007 17:50

Willie came across exactly as he is - honest and straightforward. It's wholly predictable but nonetheless sad that the hired guns who portray themselves as Erris people would pick on Willie's obvious lack of oily, practised, insincere p.r skills in front of camera. He never thought he'd be in this position,which gives all the more credence to what he says. If Shell to Sea wanted to go down the road of polished p.r lies, we'd have someone like John Egan speaking for us, although it would have to be someone a lot better than that foot-in mouth idiot. But we'll never need that because what we have to say has an obvious ring of truth that carries much more weight. I doubt if Erris Exile is from Erris at all, but if you are, shame on you for trying to score a few cheap shots on a fellow Errisman. If Shell ever got in here, we'd all be Exiles.

by Erris Exile Mon Aug 27, 2007 18:29

Beg to differ Fearbolg - left Mayo and Erris cos I couldn't get a job. Decided to finally ply my trade out of Ireland, but I do know what is going on there around Bellanaboy. In fact I attended the planning oral hearings in the Downhill Hotel back in 2002 and 2003 ad remember what went on at Glengad in the summer of 2002. Can I say the same about you?!? As for a hired gun for Shell - I don't think so, but I have yet to hear a comprehensively sound argument that substanciates the S2S position (processing it at sea - someone provide me the facts on how do to this (I am an engineer) - Willie proports to knowing that it is done, then let S2S prove it!). I call a spade a spade hence my comments. If he persists on going on national TV stations then he should undergo some sort of PR training - the Irish beal bocht doesn't wash with the UK public anymore and people want the hard facts. The interview did more harm than good for S2S.

And please address the issue about the award being on behalf of the cimmunity and the monetary payout. I am interested in finding out if the beal bocht is a facade or a fact!!!

by Erris Exile Mon Aug 27, 2007 19:51

And as for your comment "Willie's obvious lack of oily, practised, insincere p.r skills in front of camera" - there can be that but then there can be deliberate distortion of the truth and the facts in order to come across as sincere and straighforward on camera. Such a 'huge' TV audience and he plants some deliberately (maybe not) incorrect 'facts' is in my books insincere.

And as for SEPIL's PR team, they don't cover themselves in glory and come across squeeky clean but they are more believeable I'm afraid. S2S should have one/two maybe three spokesperson/people for the media so that muddled messages don't come across to a now confused and longtime uninterested audience - too many cooks spoil the broth and in S2S's case there are too many voices and not all speaking the same story.

by CL Mon Aug 27, 2007 20:10

I can also confirm (this is not a surprise to most in Erris) that Shell has come to agreements with the landowners along at least two of the proposed pipeline routes.
they have agreement with some of the landowners in rossport so it is only further up rossport and pollathomas where they needed acceptance.
They have applied to ABP under the fast track planning law, (Twenty-eight of the schemes are being developed by private companies including oil company Shell, )http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2007/0802/11....html for permission to lay the pipeline through the route's with landowners approval.

by Fearbolg - S2S Mon Aug 27, 2007 20:17

For someone who, a couple of hours ago, was describing hmself as sitting on the fence, you seem to have developed a severe case of

vertigo and fallen squarely into the Shell camp. The truth hurts, doesn't it? I said you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to get

Willie with a low blow and it seems to have hit a nerve with you. When I see someone overloading a comment with too much detail to the

detriment of syntax and grammar, then following it up with another incoherent rant before anyone even replies it tells me you're on what

poker players call 'tilt'. Take a deep breath now, good man, and count to ten and come back to us tomorrow when you're fully compus

mentus. An apology to Willie Corduff would be a good idea, too, for your attempt to deride an ordinary man who never dreamt he'd see

the inside of a BBC studio. At least he's not a fence sitter, which is the lowest form of life in Erris.

by Erris Exile Mon Aug 27, 2007 20:49

Hit a nerve. I don't think so. Shell have made their arguement and I would like to see S2S counter it. Simple. I will remain sitting on the fence until I have been convinced one way or the other. At this moment the jury is out for me about the whole project and as I like to afford everybody their say before I decide which way to go. So don't try to say that I have jumped over one side of the fence.

As for syntax - who cares, we're not on a grammitically correct website, otherwise everyone would be consulting their thesauruses etc. before penning anything. So, when thoughts are on my mind I put them down to try an encourage constructive conversation. It's irrelevant if someone responds to a comment or not before I put another comment down, the fact is the point it made and people have the opportunity to reply whether they agree or not. So, despite what you think there's no point in taking a deep breathe, counting to ten and signing back in tomorrow. I am putting the facts on the table as they come to mind for S2S, and you, to respond to. And when a conversation or discussion doesn't seem to be going your way don't shy away from the issue. Stand up for yourself. Defend you statements. And don't lower yourself to insult - it's the most immature and churlish way of conversing.

So please, stop diverting from the issues raised. Answer the questions I posed if you can. They are valid points that you should be taking the opportunity to address.

No apology is forthcoming to Wille because none is warranted. I am entitled to my opinion and I gave it. There was nothing insulting nor deflammatory written. A number of points were raised (my observation) and I have yet to see your response to them. CL took the time to respond.

by Erris Exile Mon Aug 27, 2007 20:56

CL - again thank you for the clarification. Your answers are exactly the type of response I am trying to elicit from people. You are obviously more up to date and more informed of recent developments than most. I applaude you for that.

by Shelly Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:11

It is good to see someone trying to instigate a mature debate about this EE, well done.

It is typical of people like Fearbolg to resort to petty retorts (syntax, timings of comments etc.) when faced with an objective argument about the Corrib project. They can not counter the important arguments therefore get upset and look for other avenues to score points. Shame on you all. Lets hear a constructive argument for a change.

I believe Willie Corduff is not a bad man, just easily led. The crux of his anger with Shell became evident in the interview. Shell were arrogant and presumptious with him when trying to access his land initially, all those years ago. Rightly so he took umbrage to this and the rest that unravelled we all know. However, he has since fell into the pocket of silver tongued eco warriors such as Mark Garavan and lost all credibility. You only have to look at his response to technical questions in the interview to see he has not the slightest idea.

Now, cue accusations of "sock puppets" and other such irrelevant remarks from Fearbolg

by jd Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:21

I watched the interview. Did you notice how the interviewer would not allow Willie to speak about Shell's
record in other communities - this was after she introduced the subject to bolster her own argument.

Shell's record is central to this whole debate.

I suspect Shell's tentacles extend further than Mayo County Council.

Well done to Willie. He is getting valuable experience. How many of us would cope so well under so
much pressure?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/hardtalk/6960111.stm

by MacE Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:23

"...he says an OIL REFINERY...". The oil refinery comes after. The authorities are not even pretending otherwise anymore.

"...gas is not usually cleaned at sea...". So why do it that way off Cork? When it's done on land it's usually on uninhabited offshore islands. When it's on the mainland it's right on the coast, so no-one has to have a raw gas pipeline in their backyard. No-one but no-one does it miles inland.

1 out of 92 rig workers is Irish, and she's from Wicklow. How many refinery jobs do you reckon are intended for Erris/Mayo people beyond making the tea and security?

"...I know of workers who have been threatened (I know the people and area there very well) . What he says is not entirely true. The presence of large pickets at the front gate is not intimidatory?!?" I know of campaigners who have been threatened. And followed home. And beaten. And hospitalised. And jailed. The presence of hundreds of men with sticks enabling Shell is not intimidating?

"...processing it at sea - someone provide me the facts on how do to this (I am an engineer) ...". Ask Marathon Oil, who do it just off Kinsale.

"...the Irish beal bocht doesn't wash with the UK public anymore...". There's no béal bocht. Corduff wasn't looking for handouts, just to be left alone.

"...the pennisula is split ...". Who from Erris thinks it's a peninsula? That's the Mullet.

Some say they are sitting on the fence, yet seem happy to let the project go ahead in it's current form. Doesn't sound like fence-sitting to me, it sounds like support. The interviewer went on about the gas supply being in the national interest, seemingly unaware that the Irish state has no control over where it goes. She also gave the impression that the figures being offered to the landowners would enable them to move elsewhere, rather than the derisory four-figure sums on offer. I don't know how Corduff is spending his prize money. If he's not ploughing it into the campaign, then shame on him. That doesn't change the facts. There are too many precedents around this project, and no-one should be forced to become guinea pigs because of the greed and gullibility of others.

by Shelly Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:53

MacE, counter points to your answers -

First one - are you sggesting that an oil refinery is planned for Bellanaboy? It would be kind of pointless as all that has been discovered in the atlantic margin is gas. Or are you suggesting that supertankers will sail down the narrow bay. Don' think so.

Second - plenty of instances of untreated gas being transported near to inhabited areas in Holland, one of the most densely populated countries in the world. Still no problems there.

Third - Plenty of jobs on the terminal going to Irish workers. Plenty of spin off jobs too. Hotels increase trade, service contracts awarded. Take the selective blinkers off mate.

Fourth - Hundreds of men with sticks being the law of the land, not an unruly mob like the ones at the gate.

Fifth - I think he is alluding to the fact that the reservoir presents difficulties due to its location and the severity of weather there. You said it yourself, Marathon oil do it just off Kinsale.

Sixth - Don't know what Willie Corduff is up to, seems happy to receive money by the looks of things, maybe Shell never offered him enough mullah in the first place.

And finally - you are just being pedantic, I think anyone can appreciate the point he is trying to make.

What precedents around the project? Better back up your statement matey, instead of resorting to hearsay and rumour, like so many of the S2S mob does.

by D Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:07

'"...he says an OIL REFINERY...". The oil refinery comes after. The authorities are not even pretending otherwise anymore.' This is nonsense, the published material I have seen merely speculates on the use of the Corrib pipeline and/or terminal for any future discoveries of gas in the area. There is no mention of using them for production of oil; assuming any oil discoveries are made in the future, it would make no sense at all to use the Bellanaboy site to process oil because the oil would then have to go back out to sea for transportation and, in any case, an oil processing terminal is totally different from an oil refinery!

'"...gas is not usually cleaned at sea...". So why do it that way off Cork? When it's done on land it's usually on uninhabited offshore islands. When it's on the mainland it's right on the coast, so no-one has to have a raw gas pipeline in their backyard. No-one but no-one does it miles inland.' Total rubbish, there are hundreds of onshore gas processing plants around the world; all onshore gas fields are developed this way, many of them are hundreds of miles from the coast and many of them are close to large cities. For these onshore fields, each well (of which there could be dozens) is likely to have its own pipeline, compared to the single pipeline planned for Corrib.

by jd Tue Aug 28, 2007 13:50

"This method of development is claimed by Shell to be in line with best industry practice for gas fields of this type, but no other refinery in the world is so close to a residential community and regional water supply"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrib_Gas_Field

by Shelly Tue Aug 28, 2007 14:21

A one liner from a totally biased Wikipedia article is supposed to support your argument? Do your research man. Here is your precedent:

http://www.hydro.com/ormenlange/en/about_ormen/ormen_ma....html

by jd Tue Aug 28, 2007 16:39

We're all well aware of the Ormen Lange development. To say it is a precedent for Bellanaboy is
just plain daft.
A little RESEARCH will quickly show that -
1. A high pressure pipeline is not placed within meters of local houses.
2. The regional water supply is not threatened
3. A similar project to Bellanaboy would never be allowed in Norway
4. The local people were adequately consulted and compensated, not imprisoned or beaten.

"Statoil’s actions in Mayo are against the ethical values that they would apply in Norway. Statoil would not dare to act in this way in Norway". Terje Nustad, leader of SAFE, the main confederation of oil and gas industry workers in Norway.

by Erris Exile Tue Aug 28, 2007 18:01

A quick pointer for you regarding Marathon, BGE and Kinsale - let me offer you a bit of information. Kinsale is a shallower reservoir at much much lower pressures to Corrib, especially after being depleted since the late 70s. As a result of the low pressure no formation water is produced through the well heads with the gas and therefore absolutely no processing (water treatment, separation etc.) is done offshore there. The gas is simply not the same in its physical attributes. However, at Inch, Midleton BGE has compression facilities and mercaptan injection facilities to boost the pressure into the distribution network. High pressure gas within the Corrib reservoir flows of its own accord with water in it. This water has to be removed and onshore is the only place to do it due to size limitations offshore (hence all the reception and treatment facilities dotted around the coasts of gas producing countries. Hydrate inhibitor needs to be stored somewhere to prevent the water from freezing in the pipeline via the umbilical injecting it at the well heads. Compression facilities and mercaptan facilities are also needed. So, even if the gas was coming ashore at low pressure then treatment facilities would still be required in a terminal. This is why I would like to see S2S challenge the engineering presented by Shell. It simply is not done offshore. Also look at Point of Ayr, Bacton and Thettlethorpe for close proximity to populated areas.

As for oil - what you are saying is non-sensical. Tell me how a gas distribution pipeline and a gas treatment terminal can also take gas?!

As for the jobs on the drilling rig (1 girl from Wicklow). Everyone else working on that rig obviously deserves to be there as they must be competent and capable to do their job. How many other Europeans are working on board - should they be discriminated against just because they are not Irish? We are all Europeans are we not? This is the kind of argument that SIPTU tried to use when Enterprise Oil were drilling offshore back in the early-mid 90s. If Irish people were competent and capable and had applied for the job they may have got it and could be working on the rig alongside their country woman.

I do sympathise with Willie - I don't think he ever expected this.

by CL Tue Aug 28, 2007 18:17

Maybe you should research Terje Nustad, leader of SAFE, the main confederation of oil and gas industry workers in Norway.
you will find that he like many more has a vested interest in stirring protests on this issue!
In particular research his reaction to the Norwegian government decision to merge Statoil with Norsk Hydro and his opposition to the privatision of Statoil http://www.corribsos.com/index.php?id=1067
also see http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/2000/11/feature/no0....html

Also below is an exert from http://www.secinfo.com/d12PSu.ud.htm

(The Statoil branches of the Industry Energy union and the Norwegian Union of Energy Workers (Safe) have resigned from the group’s works councils because they believe Statoil has failed to respect the provisions on worker participation in the general agreement between employers and unions in Norway. The Safe branch is worried that it will be yet more difficult to achieve genuine participation in a merged and even more privatised company.

“A merger with Hydro’s oil and gas division means a further privatisation of Statoil, and we must therefore expect an even more one-sided focus on the highest possible return,” states a press release from the branch.)

I can supply more links if these don't convince you.
So you see even the people you quote as supporting your campaign have their own motives for their support, same with SF, young Labour/GP/Joe Higgins/Cowley/garavin/ect/ect/ect everybody who pretends to support your view is in (my humble opinion) actually doing so for their own selfish motives.
I often wonder why the "brains" of S2S never research anything, they had ample opportunity at the oral hearing recently in belmullet to put their case backed up with science fact, but all we heard as a reason to refuse an IPPC license was the same old hype that they have spun since the beginning.
I for one am waiting for the EPA's decision and if I was a betting man I would bet that they haven't changed their opinion that the emissions from this project will "not" cause any serious environmental damage

by D H Tue Aug 28, 2007 18:41

"reception and treatment facilities dotted around the coasts of gas producing countries"

NOT 8m inland, through a community and beside the water supply.

Why was the refinery not built on the coast at least? Because the irish government has earmarked the site at Bellanaboy as a future refinery complex and to hell with the locals. That includes oil refineries if the need arises and according to reports it probably will.

Hold your noses.

http://www.labsafety.org/news/deadly_explosion_at_texas...e.htm

by Erris Exile Tue Aug 28, 2007 19:37

Ok, so what about the inland gas fields in The Netherlands, Germany, North America, Mexico, South America (Brazil, Bolivia, etc), Africa, North Africa, UAE, Qatar, Iran - they are all inland processing terminals. They exist and are safe - I can't think of any that have exploded (but I will admit that there could have been incidences - if so please let me know about them). The link you provided is for an oil refinery in Texas - and its comparison related to Bellanaboy being?

What reports are available to say that oil will be brought ahsore to Bellanaboy? The only thing that remotely resembles something like oil is the uneconomical condensate find by Shell et al some 200+ miles offshore Donegal in the Rockall Trough. Your knowledge of forthcoming developments and plans for the re-development of the gas terminal at Bellanaboy will be a relevation to the industry in Ireland. Another piece of mis-information being propogated by S2S. Please show the factual proof.

As for the reason EEIL didn't site the terminal on the shore was simply because of visual impact, it wouldn't have got through the planning process. The site inland, despite what Kevin Moore seemed to think, is relatively well screened. Of course it is going to be visible from a distance but it will be considerably less visible than if it were on or near the shore.

DH - can you please tell me what does S2S really want - is it really Shell to Sea? I said to FearBolg last evening that I sat on the fence - now I am honestly getting tired with the unsubstanciated technical (?) arguements being presented by S2S and am starting to think that Bellanaboy is a good site (albeit the pipeline route needs to be changed).

by D Tue Aug 28, 2007 19:41

Why are you bring up these tired old issues on onshore gas terminals and using the Bellanaboy site for oil processing. Read my earlier contribution "Corrections for MacE"?

To summarise again, there are hundreds of inland gas processing terminals and Bellanaboy is totally unsuitable even for oil processing let alone oil refining.

by CL Tue Aug 28, 2007 22:19

JD claims that SAFE is the main main confederation of oil and gas industry workers in Norway, should have been checked out also.
"Terje Nustad, leader of SAFE, the main confederation of oil and gas industry workers in Norway."

From a simple search on the net I find that NOPEF, is actually a much larger union representing 39% of the members of the Oil and Petrochemical industry compared with OFS (SAFE) combined with a number of other unions representing just 15% of the Oil and Petrochemical industry .
see link below (pie chart half way down page.)
http://www.norway.org/News/archive/2002/200202oil.htm
Again I ask why publish without researching the facts?

by CL Tue Aug 28, 2007 22:24

Wrong link in last post , correct link below
http://www.trainingvillage.gr/etv/upload/etvnews/news/1...6.ppt

by jd Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:32

"the report does recommend that whatever oil and gas is discovered be exported back to either the proposed Corrib gas terminal or a new terminal adjacent to it. "

http://www.corribsos.com/index.php?id=1467

An oil refinery is not a certainty but it is a definite possibility.

CL, is that the best you can do to address the issues - irrelevant pie-charts? You are nit-picking and trying to waste our time. Forgive me if I disregard your links in future.

by D Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:50

"the report does recommend that whatever oil and gas is discovered be exported back to either the proposed Corrib gas terminal or a new terminal adjacent to it." This is not true, I have seen the report and firstly it does not "recommend" anything, it just gives examples of how any future oil or gas discoveries might be developed, and secondly none of the examples included propose any transportation of oil through Bellanaboy - in all cases it is proposed that oil will be loaded into tankers in the field.

"An oil refinery is not a certainty but it is a definite possibility." It is not even a remote possibility!

by jd Wed Aug 29, 2007 13:21

"I have seen the report" - please include a link to same.
I notice the PAD website concerning Corrib is stuck at 2005, for anything of substance, - what are they hiding?

http://www.dcmnr.gov.ie/Natural/Petroleum+Affairs+Divis...ment/

In the meantime we have only a verbatim copy of the western people's article - which never printed,
or was asked to print, a correction or retraction.
Hmmm............whom to believe - the anonymous D. or a reputable newspaper?

by CL Wed Aug 29, 2007 14:00

I have no problem with jd, disregarding my links in future.
It only confirms my view that he, and people like him aren't interested in facts, and prefer to pretend what they say is true without any facts to back it up.
So go ahead and spin all you want but the truth will come out, because hiding behind insults and misinformation will fool some people but most are wising up to what is really happening in Erris.

by Easy Rider Wed Aug 29, 2007 14:27

CL Spinmaster 05:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpVxiQQu4-k&mode=related...arch=

by D Wed Aug 29, 2007 14:33

Here is the link to the report summary: http://www.dcmnr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyres/D22723D6-3F33-4F95...6.PDF

If you take everything that you read in newspapers as the truth, you are even dumber than I thought!

by jd Wed Aug 29, 2007 15:10

Thanks for that D, it's nice of you to do my research, I'm very busy you know.

On the subject of an oil terminal in Bellananboy the report is arguably ambiguous
but regarding the possibility of more gas refineries it leaves little in doubt.
The clear intention is to develop Bellanaboy Bridge as a hub for gas refining to cover virtually all
gas wells off the Irish coast. The present refinery is only a 'foot in the door' to further extensive development. This will involve, not only more refineries, but more high-pressure pipelines and more pollution.
Carrowmore Lake, Broadhaven Bay and N. Mayo are in deep shit.

by D Wed Aug 29, 2007 16:03

"On the subject of an oil terminal in Bellananboy the report is arguably ambiguous" Pure invention, where in the report is there any ambiguity about the use of Bellanaboy for oil?

"The clear intention is to develop Bellanaboy Bridge as a hub for gas refining to cover virtually all gas wells off the Irish coast." If you think that, you clearly do not understand the purpose of the report. There is a clear intention to encourage development of Ireland's natural resources and, if there are any more gas discoveries close to Corrib, that might include using some of those facilities if that is an economically viable way to go (and the more economically viable the project, the more tax will be paid by the field).

by jd Wed Aug 29, 2007 17:47

o.k. D I'll spell it out for you since you obviously have trouble deciphering the report.
I'll use small words.

1.Rockall Basin OIL FIELD 1A and North Porcupine Basin OIL FIELD 2A:
The report encourages the use of Bellanaboy for any gas found in these OIL fields.
That is the ambiguity (am-big-u-it-y). Is it hinting at oil refining in Bellanaboy? Does it make
sense to pipe gas and not oil? Answers on €50 note please.

2.The following gas fields are to be encouraged to connect to Bellanaboy -
(i) Rockall Basin 1A
(ii) Rockall Basin 1B (by association with 1A)
(iii) South Porcupine 1D ("the pipeline will land adjacent to the existing Corrib terminal")
(iv) North Porcupine Basin 2A
(v) North porcupine Basin 2B
(vi) Slyne/ Erris / Donegal Basin fields 3A and 3B and 3C and 3D

Corrib is mentioned at least 14 times in the report, Bellanaboy at least twice. It all means
that Bellanaboy will, in all likelihood, become a very busy place.

I can see you're a Doubting Thomas D and won't believe unless you see wells drilled,
contracts signed and refineries built. That is your choice. That makes you a realist, not a visionary.

by Erris Exile Wed Aug 29, 2007 18:29

This conversation is now becoming farsical. Oil being refined at Bellanaboy is the most ridiculous thing I have heard from S2S supporters thus far. If the report ambiguously says that other fields tying into the Corrib subsea infrastructure it will be for gas only. Gas is found with oil in a lot of cases (Corrib is only gas) - why do you see flaring taking place on most of the production platforms in the North Sea - it is classed as a by-product of the oil extraction process (what they can't use as fuel gas they burn off). In the 'oil fields' off the west coast only prospective plays have been identified using seismic interpretation or even more adventurously by drilling test wells and to date none have them are proven as oil fields. If oil is discovered then I can guarantee you the oil will be offloaded through the use of spars and not export oil pipelines to the coast for a number of reasons. The gas will be brought ashore through more pipelines tying back into the Corrib manifold. Tell me one field offshore Ireland that produces oil or that has been proven to be able, especially those in the list of licensed exploration blocks you provided.

However, people seem to be missing the point about pipelines and the possibility of new fields being tied back to the SEPIL infrastructure is that the Corrib pipeline route is one of the few pipeline routes that can physically be laid towards the coast of Clare, Galway or Mayo - the subsea coastal approach is too rocky (in some cases right out to the 200 mile limit that Ireland can claim exploration rights to) and if you look at the original EIS for the pipeline you will see the pipeline selection criteria. Very few routing options are there. This is a problem the industry will face if more fields are proven. Also the pipeline and the terminal are rated to carry certain pressures. From what I can remember the extra space at the back of the terminal yet within the boundary is for additonal compression and refridgeration facilities for when the field begins to mature and the pressure drops. Please show me where more 'refineries' can be constructed at Bellanaboy - the present site has a number of physical boundaries and restrictions to it. Site selection is crucial. Just because one thing is built there does NOT necessarily mean that other things will be. This is a unfounded statement being propogated by S2S in the hope to galvanise more support when their original arguement losses credibility with educated masses. It is this kind of inaccurate speculation that helps further alienate the S2S cause.

by Shell Wed Aug 29, 2007 18:59

Well said Erris Ex-oil. A job well done.The check is in the post.

by Erris Exile Wed Aug 29, 2007 19:12

I won't apologise for educating myself on the project espcially when I was living back in the area. Just beacuse I know a bit or two about the issue being discussed doesn't make me a fan of the project. However, as I have always said why doesn't S2S counter Shell's engineering design with engineering facts and who knows, maybe provide some solutions. I am starting to think that this is beyond S2S - why don't you try to educate me further by imparting your knowledge on the project to us rather than try to pass off sarcastic comments about the contributors (seems to be a common trait amongst S2S supporters and contributors on this website).

My profession requires me to challenge assumptions. This debate allows me the opportunity to do so. I am disappointed by the lack of credible facts being presented by S2S thus far.

by E Wed Aug 29, 2007 19:51

Whatever about siting the refinery at Bellanaboy, how are they going the gas to it without putting a high-pressure pipeline through a bog and past people's houses, schools, roads etc?

Or do you think Shell to Sea should let Shell build the refinery and only then start campaigning against the pipeline route?

Oh and where were you when the Rossport Five were in jail? Did you come out and support them or where you going around saying that the pipleine was safe, that 344 bar pressure was normal, that Shell could be trusted etc etc...

We heard the likes of you then, and people know that the protests got the pressure reduced, the pipeline route changed etc. People realise that Shell didn't give a fuck about Erris before the protests, now they have a team of paid apologists, the likes of ex gardaí writing letters and former journalists giving briefings, all on high salaries, and suddenly this year there are scholarships for local schools. All a result of the protests. Did you know they even have people writing stuff for internet discussion boards?

You may be in foavour of this project, but you won't have to live with it, and since you don't live in Ireland it's not your health service, schools, infrastructure that is being robbed to pay Shell and Statoil's shareholders...

But go on, blind us with science about "similar" projects, about "industry best practice" and the difference between your anonymous scientific know-how and the likes of Willie Corduff, who only has 94 four days in prison to fall back on for his credibility.

Why should we pay attention to him, he only lives in the area and has the courage of his convictions- whereas you, tapping away anonymously in cyberspace, you of course derserve to be listened to...

by CL Wed Aug 29, 2007 21:25

I have to admit, easy riders comment "CL Spinmaster 05:00" has me confused, I honestly haven't an idea what he means.

E, makes some valid points, the protests have led to changes been made to the project, and has (in my opinion) caused shell to be more humble in its dealings with local people.
But if you were to expand on this logic, can you imagine the possibilities that could have materialised if a strong pressure group was formed several years ago to deal with shell and negotiate a proper package of investment for the Erris area.
we could have been equal to the Shetland island, but it seems fear won out and we will get almost nothing (except for a few scraps)

by D Wed Aug 29, 2007 23:01

"The report encourages the use of Bellanaboy for any gas found in these OIL fields. That is the ambiguity." Where's the ambiguity, there is absolutely no suggestion that oil might go to Bellanaboy.

At least you are right in saying that I am a realist. The reality is that there is zero chance of any oil being sent to Bellanaboy and a small chance that, if any more gas is discovered close to Corrib, its development could utilise either the pipeline and/or the Bellanaboy terminal site.

As I have already pointed out in this thread and before, there are hundreds of inland gas processing plants around the world - they are sited in every type of terrain, sometimes close to major cities and will often have dozens of pipelines tied into them. So there is absolutely nothing new in what is being proposed now or might happen in the future.

by S3S Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:07

"CL Spinmaster 05:00" ho ho. sounds like a washing machine

CL is caught out

by Erris Exile Thu Aug 30, 2007 14:08

E - I understand where you are coming from with some of your statements and I agree with what CL says as well about the timing of the pressure being applied to Shell. I applaude the protestations against the original pipeline route resulting its subsequent re-routing, it was never the right option. But one point of note - the pipeline was never going to be operated at 344 bar, that is it's design rating. The max operation pressure of the terminal is 150bar, so why would you try to push something into something that doesn't fit. The design rating is a safety factor that S2S won't recognise nor accept. But hey, that's their choice. And this is not blinding with science - this is fact.

As for where was I on the 29th June 2005 when the R5 were imprisioned, well I was down at Gate 3 after Maura jack-knifed her car to prevent the workforce from leaving the site. Also when Patrick Flannery threw a punch and then Ed Moran had to intervene. And also when Maura tried tio make an citizen's arrest? Also what about the sit down protest by Maura and a few others on the JCB on Glengad beach back in June 2002 prior to Shell's new management arriving on the scene? And the planning oral hearings in the Downhill Hotel? I was there - were you? I sincerely doubt it. So don't talk to me about tapping away in cyberspace - I've been there from the outset. I remember the original people from the area (willie, Monica and her then husband et al) who were against the project. Can I ask the same of you?

by CL Thu Aug 30, 2007 14:08

I am chuffed that some "fools" think I might be Christy Loftus, its a pity I don't receive his wage every week.
I have always called myself Confused Local (CL) an as Mr. Loftus is not local then it follows that I am not him.
But if you want to believe I am, then please yourselves.
It doesn't really matter who I am, I don't work for shell (never have) and my contributions are dealing with facts, so trying to discredit my arguments by implying I have a vested interest, wont change that truth

by jd Thu Aug 30, 2007 14:58

Erris Exile - you just don't get it.
This protest is not just about the mechanics of the proposed development. You can talk about those
'til the cows come home and nothing will change. There is a huge abstract element present.
I won't pretend to do it justice and for those with no appreciation of such things it will make no sense.

What is under attack is a way of life and a culture. It is not attacked openly but by stealth, lies and
thuggery. The people of this culture are treated with contempt and disrespect. To use a simile -
the people of Tara are dead but are attacked nevertheless. In Rossport the people are living.
Who knows how far a man will go when he is demeaned, stripped of his dignity, his land invaded
and his children threatened. I hope we never have to find out.

To counteract such sentiments we engage in processes of consultation and compensation.
This was and remains the huge flaw in the bellanaboy development. With the arrogance borne of
years of contempt for people and the environment Shell proceeded to make a royal mess of the
whole situation. Opposition is now stronger and more entrenched than ever.

Is there a way out? I believe so. Here's my tuppence worth.
Shell and co. must immediately suspend work on the project. They must issue a full and unqualified
apology to the Rossport 5 and their families for their imprisonment. Shell must offer compensation to these families.
Shell must compensate the likes of Ed Collins who was seriously injured by Shell Gardaí.

To show that their apology is sincere Shell must sack Andy Pyle, the chief architect of the imprisonments.

Then Shell must sit down with the local people and begin again to negotiate a way forward.
It can be done. With good will and appropriate compensation it can be done. Of that I am certain.
But the people of Rossport must be allowed to salvage their good names and dignity.

The broader issues of tax revenue, etc. can then be thrashed out in the media, in parliament, on the
doorsteps, etc.

We can haggle over statistics, facts and figure for years to come but unless we address the deeper
hurt and resentment this will never be solved.

To get back to the topic of this thread - I will be in Bellanaboy on Sept. 14. Not to oppose the refinery,
but to support the people of Rossport, who have been ignored, abused and abandoned.
(Shame on you Michael Ring!)

What do you think?

by Monica Muller Thu Aug 30, 2007 16:54

Bus to Rossport for day of action

in response to jd who claims to support the people of Rossport, who he claims have been ignored, abused and abandoned. When did you ever ask if 'the people 'of Rossport want you here? The people of Rossport acutally have never been consulted and asked for permission by people such as jd (or Shell to Sea), who makes outrages claims to defend us poor abused people?. The people of Rossport including myself are well able to handle our affairs and if that means when landowners made a decision of allowing a pipeline through land, than whether or not you like it, you will have to accept it.
I am really tired of reading mostly nonsense and non-factual comments but most of all ,it's time to learn to have respect for people. Just because jd appears to be in dire need of a 'cause' does not entitled him to make ill-advised , insulting and negative comments about people living in Rossport.

by jd Thu Aug 30, 2007 17:38

"When did you ever ask if 'the people of Rossport want you here?"

Well actually Monica many of the people of Rossport did say just that to me, in person.
You are obviously well able to speak for yourself and don't need anybody's help but if you
took the time to look around you then you might see plenty of your neighbours who asking for a little
help and support.
If you and others like you in Rossport gave a damn about the welfare of your neighbours then
perhaps it would not fall to 'outsiders' like me to offer to help them out. (Perhaps you think 3 months in
prison is a trivial matter)
Ordinary christian charity and neighbourly concern used to count for something in this country but
since some people got the smell of money that has gone.
You can go home and pull up your drawbridge if you wish and when people of character like Willie
Corduff, Vincent McGrath and many others say they no longer need my support then I will be quite
happy to stay at home.

As for looking for a cause- don't make me laugh. I would much rather go fishing.

"A tragic life is romantic when it happens to somebody else" - Charlie Brown

by CL Fri Aug 31, 2007 09:03

So jd finally admits its about money.
"Shell must offer compensation to these families"
"Shell must compensate the likes of Ed Collins who was seriously injured by Shell Gardai."
" With good will and appropriate compensation it can be done. Of that I am certain."
he finishes with "what do you think"
Well here is what I think, it was about money for the locals from the beginning.
But I think its a little late now to start talking about compensation for the protestors, that just wont happen.
if you consider how many attended the information day on the 25th you will realize that this campaign has lost wider public support, so the protestors have missed the boat in relation to compensation, If you sought compensation a years ago shell would have handed out blank cheques.
But now, ask yourself why would they?

by Monica Muller Fri Aug 31, 2007 09:05

Bus to Rossport for day of action

Dear dj,

thanks for acknowledging that some people in Rossport asked for your help, but not 'the people of Rossport'. So from now on, maybe people will drop that false claim. By all means you are all free to speak and act on your own behalf and in your own name.
In the spirit of charity and christian compassion I invite you to visit me in Rossport to give you a briefing of the last 7 years, the day the developers of the Corrib gas project knocked at our doors. I don't blame you that you are not fully informed of the what has happend in those years or who I am. Glad to help you to gain understanding. After all, a campaign is only as good as the information it is based on.

by jd Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:43

"So jd finally admits its about money."
CL, I've already admitted to being an 'outsider' so i have nothing to gain from any compensation.
Yes, I believe compensation has a major role to play when disrupting lives and communities.
I also believe that Rossport and Erris has been hamstrung from the start by that most base of
human sentiments - begrudgery, a particularly Irish trait. It has been evident in the locality, from
people like yourself, in the local politicians, in the national media and even in the words and actions
of the taoiseach.
The irony is that had the people of Mayo, along with their political representatives, pulled together
from the start, they would have gained millions of euros worth of infrastructure and projects for
themselves and for their children. Local people like Hannick have been blinded by pittances when
they should have struck it big. This is what comes from sweeping your own doorstep all your life.
However, as I've said, its not all about money. There are other important issues.

In Norway, and in other developed countries, the people and politicians know how to go about
claiming their dues when an oil or gas company invades their area. Their is mutual benefit.
Rossport has the misfortune to be the first Irish community to be so disrupted. It was betrayed by
incompetent politicians, a corrupt council and an uncaring government. When a similar scenario
develops in Kerry, Cork or wherever, the lessons will have been learned and the people of Mayo will,
yet again, be left behind, many wallowing in their begrudgery and self-pity.
When Shell and Statoil negotiators met with the Irish government they were stunned at the ease with
which Bertie and co. sold out his people. Whatever has been gained in Mayo has been due to the
stubbornness of people like Corduff and McGrath. Certainly Ring, Kenny and Flynn have disgraced
themselves. This will become evident in time.

As for personal compensation - the Rossport 5 deserve to be compensated. They were taken from
their families and imprisoned at the behest of Shell. Ed Collins deserves to be compensated. He
was brutally assaulted by those with a sworn duty to defend him.

See you on the 14th

by D Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:10

"When Shell and Statoil negotiators met with the Irish government they were stunned at the ease with
which Bertie and co. sold out his people." What is it that you imagine Shell and Statoil negotiated with the Irish government?

by CL Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:22

begrudgery" BY ME?.
please quote references!
"" they would have gained millions of Euros worth of infrastructure and projects for
themselves and for their children."
Such a statement coming from a S2S supporter is one of the most ironic things I have ever witnessed.
I.e..

(1) Call for Shell to disclose local sponsorship deals http://www.corribsos.com/index.php?id=1508
(2) Feile Iorrais artistes in Shell protest http://www.corribsos.com/index.php?id=1492
(2) Erris fishermen reject proposed funding application to Shell http://www.corribsos.com/index.php?id=1136

That was just a sample of the the actions of S2S in relation to funding from shell.
so I think its time jd stood back and had a good long look at his campaign!

by jd Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:39

CL, I don't wish to repeat myself.
Your so-called references are not about compensation. They are about bribery and attempting to buy support by subterfuge and stealth. Most intelligent people can tell the difference.
When have Shell offered to adequately compensate anybody?

If Shell want to offer compensation let them do it openly and as part of a negotiated deal.

And yes -begrudgery You! as evidenced by your eagerness to seize on the issue of compensation
as some sort of sin. Do you not think that individuals and the community should be offered compensation? What other motivation do you have?
You admit to living in the local community, yet you wish to see your locality overrun by a greedy corporation for free. What are we supposed to think of such people?

It is not my campaign. What campaign are you conducting? Maybe, with your cancerous claptrap, you have more in common with Shell than even you know.

by Claptrap to Sea Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:19

Errisman is surely mistaken in his belief that Monica changed sides and took money from Shell. The only person who has benefited financially from this entire situation is Willie Corduff. What happened the monies that Willie was awarded and received in a blaze of publicity? Did anybody else who has campaigned on the issue share in those monies? Have they been donated in any way to the campaign?
As it happens, Monica didn't change sides; in fact, if anybody cared to look at the Planning Application for the road to the landfall, they would see that Peter Sweetman and Monica were the persons who insisted, both to Shell, Mayo County Council and Duchas, that Shell needed Planning Permission to get their road to the Landfall and brought the issue to An Bord Pleanala, who finally agreed with them. Following that, Shell applied for Planning Permission for Retention for the landfall road and opening on to the existing public roadway.
That application is now before An Bord Pleanala and an examination of the Planning file in Mayo County Council is very interesting because although the Landfall is in the Galetacht, the only person who objected to these facilities in Irish was An Taisce, through its' Solicitors. Mayo County Council refused to deal with the entire thing in Irish; seemingly, they only speak English in Castlebar. It seems that nobody local speaks Irish either or even knows where the Galetacht is seeing as nobody local bothered to put in a Submission in Irish.
The interesting question now is whether or not An Bord Pleanala will deal with the application in Irish and whether or not they will require an Environmental Impact Assessment to be carried out in accordance with the Habitats Directive of the EU and the Habitats Regulations 1997. Shell cannot build their Landfall Facility on the Pipeline without Planning Permission.
No landfall, no pipeline. No pipeline, no gas comes ashore.

So cut the claptrap and send it to sea.

by belmullet hotel Sun Sep 02, 2007 16:40

An Taisce held an information meeting at the broadhaven bay hotel last thursday night.
they claim that the refinery will ruin our drinking water, and are bringing a case to europe.
the meeting was packed with hundreds of local people,