Israel kills more Palestinian Children

by Sean D Tue Apr 01, 2008 01:47

D. HaCohen, I notice you said earlier;
'Do note that the Jews of Europe ........ did not wage open nor guerilla war against any of their HOST SOCIETIES as the Arabs have done against Israel in flagrant violation of UN 181 and every other UN resolution since 1947.'

Can you explain how Israel became the host society to the Palestinians, though the Palestinians lived there first?

by D.HaCohen - private citizen Sat Mar 15, 2008 15:36

In their charter Hamas intend to destroy Israel - on their way to erecting a World Caliphate ie a regime with Moslem equivalents of Index and Inquisition and plenty of death penalties. The Taliban and The Moslem Brothers have the same programme to destroy the West and all its works for a caliphate - as a substitute for the USA grain surplus that feeds Egypt, Iran and many others . So why are Hamas not comparable to the Taliban and Quaeda?

Hamas, Syria, Iran, Libya and the other stalwarts of the UN Human Rights Council could start by recognising Israel as an equal paid up member of the UN of which she was the 56th member to join. The Jewish majority in Israel within the Green Line has as much right to self determination as a state, as the Roman Catholic majority in Ireland. If Arabs including Hamas and Iran do not treat Israel as a fellow equal state because of their private religious views then there is no point in treating, as per precedent any treaty will not stick under the continued frontier harassment that periodically explodes into something bigger.

The UN Convention of the Rights of the Child puts an age definition of under fifteens on the word/status, so what do quibblers wish to substitute?

Spluttergob is indeed drunk if he can not distinguish between democatic Israel which has always had minorities - a fifth (in the fifties and the present decade) and an eighth in the 60's to 80's; and the Arab states where there are but handfuls of Jews remaining; death penalties for selling land to Jews; and prohibitions on entry by visiting Jews. The Arabs of course are now harassing their Christians to leave in the name of Jihadi supremacy. Look up and chuckle over the Cruiser's account of a very embarrassed King Feisal of Saudi Arabia - another SA - as he greeted Kissinger for the first time with... "now shall we try and settle this as human beings?"
To which Cousin Henry replied, "Some of my best friends are human beings."

Total sieges are not 500 years old. In 14 - 18 and 39 - 45 Britain and Germany blockaded and otherwise starved each other. In 1941 everybody was surprised by the German invasion of Russia precisely because the Germans had dropped leaflets since 1939 that this time with Russian grain and oil, a British blockade would not work! Barbarossa was the daftest move, but so were: the Arab rejection of UN 181, the Arab failure to create "Palestine" in 49 - 67; and the Arab failure to even answer the Israeli 67 post war offer to return to the Green line for a peace treaty.

More pertinently, in 1948 Arabs blockaded Jerusalem. From 48 to 67 Arabs refused to allow any transit between Israel and its neighbours. In those decades Gaza was supplied - badly - by Egypt and still can be. Israeli troops are not in the Strip, so it is not occupied. Israel has no obligations to supply Gaza with anything. The fact that the effective ruler of Gaza ie Hamas, lets its deniable sidekicks Islamic Jihad and others wage war on Israel is the Gazans problem that Israel as been withdrawing its generosity before Arab ingratitude.

For the hypocrisies about collective punishment and war among the civil population. Launching thousands of rockets against a purely civilian target like Sderot market town is collective punishment and deliberate war against civilians. So was the campaign of 130 kamikazes against buses and eateries in Arafart's last war. The argument about the PLO not having F-15's is red herring. Modern societies have more than enough military, transport and economic targets to bomb. Vets of Palestine 45 - 47 know only too well. Comparitively the Israeli campaign to kill known enemy organising officers is comparitively self limiting in damage and casualties by incident and total.

In English "Shoah" is a loan word and if necessary takes English articles and other grammar. When Matan Vilnai is talking his native Hebrew he uses Hebrew articles and grammar whence "HaShoah". iosaf accepted the point by noting that in Ladino, alias medieval Castilian Spanish, "La Shoah" takes the appropriate Spanish (& French )article. His parading of the Yiddish "Churben" otherwise the Hebrew "churban" the word for the Temple sacrifices without the Yiddish article, further illustrates the language point that the sovereignty of the speakers decides and not foreign busybodies. Yiddish is medieval German stripped of the Christian words and formed before Luther's translation of the Bible pickled Hochdeutsch in his quirk of the verb of subordinate clauses to the end of the clause moving.

Modern Israelis and Diaspora Jews do not see why they should be considered a voluntary sacrifice to God by themselves, when they were massacred by ideological maniacs for no good reason than being an easy target - whence the told you so reason for a Jewish Israel which could, and did save the Jews of the Arab World, Ethiopia and the collapsing USSR, when the British Mandate under Arab oil pressure, refused to save the Jews of Germany and Poland.

by D Byrne Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:34

While you're at it. Heres more about your "Recognising Israel" Nonsense

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=11642

" The magic words "We recognise you" could end all this suffering. So why did their prime minister, Ismail Haniyeh, vow last week never to utter them. Is Hamas so filled with hatred and loathing for Israel as a Jewish state that it cannot make such a simple statement of good intent?.............In demanding recognition of its right to exist, Israel is ensuring that the Palestinians agree to Israel's character being set in stone as an exclusivist Jewish state, one that privileges the rights of Jews over all other ethnic, religious and national groups inside the same territory. The question of what such a state entails is largely glossed over both by Israel and the West."

by Denis Byrne Thu Mar 13, 2008 23:06

You are correct, "Recognise Israel" is plain English when it is used in a genuine fashion.The only way that phrase could be used genuinely is in an secondary school classroom.

"What's this country , class? Its Israel."

You are trying to create the impression of a point of View by inserting meaningless slogans. Recognise ISrael from what ? As what ?
Hamas recognise Israel as the merciless colonial entity that massacres in Palestine with impunity with a view to ethnically cleansing the land. Full recognition accorded therein.

You are correct, you never wrote that a complete siege is an expected outcome of war. But you did try to pretend that the complete siege of Gaza was nothing more than an interruption of normal commerce and movement of persons and should be expected.

Which is a blatant lie and a distortion of facts.you either have a lack of knowledge or a propensiy to abuse it.

A sceptic with a lack of knowledge is an ignoramus and a sceptic with a full grasp of the facts but a propensity to twist them is a propagandist.

by splutter gob on your hood Wed Mar 12, 2008 22:50

End the fundamentalist Iranian backed Israeli made prison which is Gaza. End the apartheid Zionist state which the Israelis & American Evangelical right want to make Jewish alone. End the ridiculous negotiating farce which is the Palestinian authority.

Admit they have all failed.
Admit we don't want either of them.
Admit we don't support religious or ethnically pure states. Admit we don't want apartheid regimes on the fringes of Europe. One state. Equal representation for whomever considers themselves to be Jewish first, Muslims first, Arabic first, Zionist first, Believer first or Secular first. Call it Palestine or Israel or in the name of Jacob's muscular angel call it something new - Greater Tel Aviv?

I really wish Ed Said was still alive. He was the best proponent of a one state solution with water for everyone.

by Sceptic Wed Mar 12, 2008 22:43

“Recognize Israel” is plain English – what is the problem with this precondition? How can there be a peace process without it? It is in no way incompatible with a just two State solution.

I never wrote that a complete siege is an expected outcome of war but an interruption of normal commerce and movement of persons can be expected. States don’t even have to be at war for an economic war, trade bans or embargoes to happen. Many of Israel’s neighbours boycott it though that has not prevented it becoming economically successful. There is no war between the US and Cuba yet there is a trade embargo. Our own somewhat grandly titled “economic war” in the 1930s caused enormous hardship in rural Ireland. Friendly occupied states are routinely embargoed e.g. UN v Kuwait in 1990 and UK v Channel Islands in 1940+.

An economy is a fragile thing – it needs trade, movement of people and money etc. and these things are easily blocked. The one sure way to undermine this is to start attacking a more powerful neighbouring country with rockets a la mode Hamas. Rockets moreover imported from abroad along with trained terrorists. That is asking for restrictions on movements etc. Also don’t overestimate Egyptian fellow feeling for the Gazans. Tehran also has the Cairo regime in its sights and Hamas is just the agent to cause trouble for it if it had unhindered movement over the border. Restrictions on crossing to and from Egypt suits the Egyptians quite well and for not dissimilar reasons to the Israelis. Hamas are troublemakers not just to the Israelis but to all moderate Arab States and the West Bank Government. All of your focus on Gazan humanitarian problems missed this point as well as the authorship of the situation in the first place.

by Denis Byrne Wed Mar 12, 2008 19:32

You are changing tack, now. Before you tried to explain how a complete siege was a natural effect of war. It was, about 500 years ago, but nowadays collective punishment is prohibited.
Now you are implying that getting blown up is a natural effect of being hit by a bomb. You are correct in that.

I am not going to argue with you as to who is responding to who's provocation. That would be pointless.

Hamas has held out a truce to Israel since it came to control in Gaza. Israel refuses to accept and tries to crush the life out of Gaza with massive unrelenting pressure on the people as a whole.

Then you are talking riddles again with your "recognise israel" rubbish. Spit it out in English or leave it out.

by Sceptic Wed Mar 12, 2008 17:16

In terms of provocation it is close enough to a state of war which will naturally impact on the civilian population of Gaza as well as upon the 20,000 people of the town of Sderot which is where the rockets from Gaza are landing and which has experienced over 400 attacks this year alone! The problem is that Hamas wants disorder and violence not peaceful coexistence and there will always be a certain foreign audience to raise a hue and cry about civilian causalities and hardships in Gaza alone while saying nothing about why this situation has come about. Yours is not fair minded comment but viciously prejudicial propaganda. The position is resolvable if:

1. Hamas stops attacking Israel
2. Hamas recognizes Israel and the Palestinian leadership as a whole negotiates a Palestinian State with Israel under international auspices

by iosaf Tue Mar 11, 2008 22:42

You'd swear I made this stuff up just to invite the ignorant gurglings of you (&/or our mate in Prestwych).

The Israeli state itself said it would apply the Geneva Convention in the occupied territories of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, Gaza Strip & Golan Heights after the six day war in 1967 and UN resolution 242.

article 33 prohibits collective punishment &working in tandem with article 94 (non-inteference in schools or hospitals) we can see quite clearly that Israel has through its named & yet unaccountable (under international law) military & civilian leadership committed war crimes.

________________________

Now let's deal with the hebrew grammar "PUT DOWN" thing which appeared above. It is customary in English to use the word "Shoah" with capital "S" in sole reference to the Holocaust (the one we all know you mean when you say Holocaust with capital "H" & the one Irving denies in just in case you're really dim Prestwych Manchester). We do not normally add the word "ha". It is not added to the title of numerous museums on the Shoah worldwide, & so far queues of schoolchildren have not been reported to have filled out suggestion forms demanding the inclusion of the "ha". Thus we find when entering "Shoah" into "wikipedia" we are re-directed automatically to the page on "The Holocaust" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoah & if we want follow that process we may see the redirect page here http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shoah&redirect=no likewise we can also if we are up to discussing Hebrew & Hebraic or Semitic grammar, dialects & so-on & being mindful that the Holocaust saw only one common language used - (German) that till the Zionist state of Israel forged a common type of modern Hebrew, the Holocaust was called La Shoah in Ladino by the Sephards & Churben in Yiddish.

by Denis Byrne Tue Mar 11, 2008 21:51

Its complete nonsense, collective punishment is a crime as per the Geneva convention.
Mean spirited interpretations of it are a symptom of a deeper ill.
Your new argument is even more profoundly ignorant than the previous.Your ludicrous comaprison of Hamas to Taliban or Al-Queda, they are neither.They are like neither.
You simply havent got a clue.You just lump all the muslim terrorists into one convenient category. Thats your business, not reality.
And what is this : UN definition of a child"?

What are you talking about now ? Spit it out in English if you must, not in riddles.

by Sceptic Tue Mar 11, 2008 21:04

This is not a case of attacks taking place without the full approval and participation of the Hamas administration which is the Government of the strip for the present. Wave after wave of rocket attack could not take place without the full connivance of the Gaza administration. These attacks are acts of war by any standards not mere terrorism by private individuals or even State sponsored terrorism. To that extent Hamas is even more culpable than the Taliban in Afghanistan who merely “hosted” Al Qa’eda but did not itself attack the US. Then of course there was the disgraceful Hamas jubilation over a man entering a school (yes a school!) in Jerusalem and deliberately shooting dead seven young people who were children by the UN definition. The only conclusion one can draw is that Hamas is more interested in making war than it is in living in peace. With peace comes the benefits of peace that is no retaliatory attacks for rocket attacks and no embargoes or the like and hope for the future. No nation could put up with these attacks from a neighbour and yet still maintain full economic relations and commercial cooperation and the like. That is why this focus, indeed mantra, of collective punishment is misplaced. You cannot will the ends which are the benefits of peace but remain silent on what is breaking the peace so often namely provocative rocket attacks with the full connivance of Hamas.

by Denis Byrne - None Tue Mar 11, 2008 17:35

Such utter rubbish. A natural stop on trade as a result of a state of war ?

You dont even listen to Israeli politicans when they clearly state that they will put the People on a diet, to let them go hungry but not to die. You must be the only person who is not prepared to say it is a complete siege.

Israel has not only sealed its own borders but it has shut down the airport and every single seaport. In fact if you sail a fishing dinghy more than 4 miles out to sea and your Palestinian theres a good chance you'll be fired at.

Dont come on here with your false comparisons to justify crimes of collective punishment or to diminish them with your perverse interpretations.

Terrorism :

The United States has defined terrorism under the Federal Criminal Code. Chapter 113B of Part I of Title 18 of the United States Code defines terrorism and lists the crimes associated with terrorism.[14] In Section 2331 of Chapter 113b, terrorism is defined as:

…activities that involve violent… or life-threatening acts… that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State and… appear to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and… (C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States… [or]… (C) occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the United States…"

Israel is patently guilty of daily acts of terrorism under the US Definition.

Terrorism and Collective punishment . You can warp the facts in your own mind but not in reality.

by Sceptic Tue Mar 11, 2008 15:37

The Geneva codes against collective punishment are really to prevent an Oradour-sur-Glane or Lidice happening again without those who ordered it suffering sanction. It’s a more fuzzy situation where there is an actual state of war between States/Statelets/failed States as arguably there is between Israel and Gaza. In prosecuting a war just legal practice will prevent the deliberate targeting of civilians or non-combatants. However inevitably there will be some degree of privation on the part of the populations of the entities at war as there is in Gaza where trade is stopped between the warring territories. Neither Hamas nor the international community can expect trade or economic relations to continue between Gaza and Israel when Israel is being attacked. Things cannot just go on as if nothing has happened. This was very true of the Second World War too but the collective suffering of the population of Germany which was very great was not regarded as their collective punishment legally. It should be noted that the actions of Hamas linked militants in firing rockets into Israel from civilian areas is as much to invite retaliation onto the civilian population and thus intensify the cycle of violence as it is to damage Israeli civilians. It should also be noted that collective punishment in the fiscal sense has continued to modern times. An example is the burning of the British Embassy in Dublin in 1972. The ratepayers of Dublin had to pay dearly for this through their local taxes. The same was true of lesser acts of vandalism and crime - the system had evolved since the Middle Ages to pay for damage caused locally by levying the local population thus giving an incentive to opinions leaders in local areas to prevent crime and take a strong line against it by employing an effective constabulary and magistrates for example.

by iosaf Tue Mar 11, 2008 15:08

If you were in the IDF Dave, & you received orders to break the Geneva convention would you be aware your superior was committing a war-crime? Before you go give a pit-pat flag waving response, I'll say now I'm not engaging in BB, got to go to work & in my mobile I have phone numbers of former members of the IDF who are aware they were ordered to commit war crimes.

by Dave Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:34

If Palestinians are killing Israeli troops and Israeli civilians and trying to destroy Israel then the Israelis are obviously going to kill Palestinian fighters and Palestinian civilians and try to destroy the chances of a Palestinian state from coming into existence.

If I was born in Israel I would be wearing an IDF uniform and I would want to kill as many Palestinians as I possibly could.

If I was a Palestinian I would be a member of Hamas and I would want to be martyred and kill as many Jews as I possibly could.

This war is between the Israelis and the Palestinians and all that outsiders can do is encourage both sides to negotiate rather than fight because things have got better for both Prods and Taigs in the North now we are no longer shooting each other - so presumeably if the Israelis and Palestinians can come to an agreement it will probably bear fruit.

It is not our business to protray the Israelis or the Palestinians as entirely evil or virtuous.

It is our business as interested observers to help boths sides bring the conflict to an end.

For the moment both sides are happy with a lose/lose or a win/lose.

We have to find a win/win outcome for both sides.

Criticising either side for the tactics the use in prosecuting their war against the enemy is complete irrelevant.

Both sides will do what they think is right in order to win.

by D.HaCohen - private citizen Mon Mar 03, 2008 13:01 Prestwich, Lancashire, UK

As Irish people you are only too aware of the difference between, "troubles" and, "The Troubles." So for "shoah" which in Hebrew is any disaster / catastrophe compared to "Ha Shoah" which is the totally unjustified Nazi murder of the Jews of Europe. Do note that the Jews of Europe never declared that: Germany, Poland Russia etc had no rights to exist nor to be German, Polish or Russian, and certainly did not wage open nor guerilla war against any of their host societies as the Arabs have done against Israel in flagrant violation of UN 181 and every other UN resolution since 1947.
Brian Phuket in deliberate confusions between the Iraq and Palestine conflicts is a textbook case of Macarthyist fallacious arguments of guilt by association. He disgraces NUJ professionalism so it is not surprising journalists collect even more odium than politicians they claim to be superior to. The particular inaccuracy of the latest flurry of finger pointing over Gaza is that Hamas ' 4000 rockets on Sderot have in no way been aimed at any military target. They have all been aimed to collectively punish civilians for the doings of others and have killed and injured only civilians.
Further you do nothing to gain respectful attention by forking out archive footage of previous events. In 1982 the BBC and many others did likewise as the Israelis rolled up to Beirut but the giveaway was the flourishing weeds in the clips of old Lebanese Civil War ruins used to allege Israeli damage. You may rest assured that misrepresenting somebody does not gain their trust.

by Barrie Rockman Sun Mar 02, 2008 13:32 barrierockman at yahoo dot co dot uk

The translation of the Hebrew word Shoah is- disaster or catastrophe. Holocaust has a '39-'45 meaning exclusively. Comparisons between what is happening in the war between Israel and the Palestinians and what happened to the jews in Europe is odious, to put it mildly.

by Plato Sun Mar 02, 2008 09:57

"We need to concentrate on supporting the right of the Palestinians to defend themselves"

Wrong, we need to concentrate on stopping outside interference in the affairs of countries in the region. The west and allies should disengage and allow these people find their own way.

by pat c Sat Mar 01, 2008 18:16

Israel has continued its onslaught against the Palestinian People. 24 civilians including 2 babies and 2 other children have been murdered as the Zionists use jets and tanks to lay waste to Gaza. Gaza Health Ministry official Dr. Moaiya Hassanain said 160 people were wounded and 14 were in critical condition.

20 Palestinian Soldiers and 2 Israeli invaders were also killed

"We tell the world, watch and judge what's happening, and judge who is committing ... terrorism," said Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.

"What is happening in Gaza is a massacre of civilians, women and children, a collective killing, genocide," Ahmed Qureia added.

Hamas military spokesman Abu Obeida vowed retaliation.

"We will respond to any aggression...with every available means," he said

by BrianClarkeNUJ - None Fri Feb 29, 2008 18:56 BFClarkeNUJ at gmail dot com 245/6 Moo 2 ., Bangtao, Cherngtalay, Phuket, Thailand. +66878864945

Matan Vilnai, Israel's deputy defence minister has threatened a "shoah", the Hebrew word for Holocaust - the word for the Nazi Holocaust, on the prisoners of Gaza Concentration Camp. This comes after the execution, in the last two days of six children, including a 6 month old baby, along with more than 30 prisoners of the Concentration Camp.

There has been more than 200 murders by Israel, in the last 3 months of the prisoners. The prisoners are often executed, using American F16 fighter aircraft and laser guided missiles, paid for by American taxpayers. Some estimates put the amount, at more than 3 trillion dollars, spent by American taxpayers, for the ethnic cleansing purposes in the middle-east, in the last few years. There has been 1,173,743 killings in Iraq alone, since the American invasion of the region.

Most reports of this are censored by the corporate media in the US and this reporter's factual accounts, are consistently flagged by a right wing American agenda, within Now Public. Palestinians have killed a 47 year old Israeli in the same 3 month period. This is the only incident condemned by the US, who are meant to be an honest broker in the matter.

Some of Mr Vilnai's colleagues within the Defence Ministry of Israel, have quickly distanced themselves from his comments and also tried to downplay, them saying he did not actually mean genocide or holocaust. One humane Israeli, has produced a video (see below) denouncing his Governments actions as War Crimes.

Hamas the Islamist movement, which seized control of Gaza in June, after being elected the Government of the Concentration Camp, has said it will call a cease fire of the homemade missiles, if Israel stops its military operations including war crimes, in the Concentration Camp and ends the collective punishment or blockade against ordinary people. The Israeli army's blockade, has cut essential supplies to its 1.5m prisoners, who are starving and dying without proper medical treatment. Many children are also dying in the local hospital because of eliectricity and food shortages.

Under International law and the Geneva convention, the execution and torture of prisoners is expressly forbidden and regarded as war crimes. During the second world war, there were 11 million people executed during the Holocaust, almost half of them Jewish, in concentration camps and from the Warsaw ghettos, in a precisely similar manner. Reports were also censored by the Nazi authorities of these activities, with the resulting compliance of a passive population.

http://podcastireland-irishblog.blogspot.com/2008/02/israeli-minister-threatens-holocaust.html

by pat c Fri Feb 29, 2008 15:19

Joe, you arent helping the Palestinian People in your article above by attacking the right of Iranian workers to go on strike. There is nothing manufactured about the stories unless you believe that Amnesty, the ITF, ICTU, HRW and members of the Iranian Parliament are also making up stories. You should note that some members of the IPSC also support HOPI.

We need to concentrate on supporting the right of the Palestinians to defend themselves. Palestinian Militants are not attacking Israel they are taking defensive actions against the unremitting assaults on their people. I dont believe that the killing of those children was an accident; by now its obvious that the savagery of Israeli pilots know no bounds and they are deliberately targetting civillians.

The US has now moved the USS Cole to cruise the coast of Lebanon. Why? A spindoctor for Bush says its a show of support for regional stability! I guess that means the Cole will be shelling Israel seeing as the Zionists murdered Hezbollahs military commander!

Meanwhile the Palestinian resistance continues:

28 / 02 / 2008

Gaza – Ma'an – The military wing affiliated to Hamas, the Al-Qassam Brigades launched a barrage of 35 homemade projectiles towards Israeli towns bordering the Gaza Strip on Wednesday evening. Thirteen of the projectiles were fired at the Israeli town of Sderot and the rest landed in other the towns of Miftahim, Kfar Azza and Kissufim.

Meanwhile, the military wing of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), the Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades said their fighters launched two homemade projectiles at near the western Negev.

Separately, Fatah's Al-Aqsa Brigades and Abu Ar-Rish Brigades claimed responsibility for launching four homemade projectiles at Sderot.

The Brigades said in separate statements that their action came in retaliation for Israeli atrocities in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

Israeli media sources confirmed that a barrage of projectiles launched from the Gaza Strip landed in several Israeli towns in the western Negev.