What indeed happened in Gory

by armenian Sat Aug 16, 2008 09:45

Here are some Pictures from S Ossetia .. in the beginning during and then after the Georgian Invasion. ( some are quite hard..)

http://milkavkaz.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=226&postdays...a1583

here some more
http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=551

by Jim Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:34

The whole world should see those photos and realise the folly of wars.

by Larussa Sat Aug 16, 2008 18:09

In response to now-hidden irrelevant comments - moderator

The last comment is so irrelevant to what the article is about.
And for your information these people, Georgians, Ossetians or Russians, are not in the EU, will not be in the EU and are restricted to travel to the extent that you, an Irish passport holder, cannot even imagine.
So, please, fewer irrelevant comments.
The article was about how English-language press is portraying Russia in a negative light, isolating it from the world. I am sure, the Irish would not have liked the US speak to them in such a condescending manner as the Bush administration has allowed itself speaking to the Russians.

Larussa

by I-bawl Mon Aug 18, 2008 16:25

Thanks for the links.

Just like the carefully stage managed Rose Revolution, there were photos of 'injured Georgians' that were clearly staged. In some cases the actor playing the victim has changed clothes between photo-shoots.

But that is not to say that the Russians did not kill or injure civilians. Let us not be fools as to how wars are conducted and the complete lack of concern for human life that is common to warmongers like Mr. Putin and Mr. Bush.
Rather, the idea was to get the pictures out early, as it's trickier to get the genuine photos out, due to their being an actual war going on. Those photos were probably done months ago.

Also, look at the recent pro-Saakashvili rally in Tblisi.
Where did all those T-shirts come from? In the middle of a war, when the people should have been either seeking shelter or finding ways to help those worse off, someone went off and produced a load of T-shirts?
It's exactly the same M.O. as when the US liberated Kuwait and (later Iraq), and despite the wars and sanctions, somehow the crowds all managed to have identical little US flags on identical little sticks. Brand new flags from somewhere. Where? They'd been handed out by propagandists.

FOX, CNN and the BBC will take care of the propaganda for the Westerners, and RIA-Novosti and Russia Today will do the mirror effect for a different audience.

The Western media barely mentions the brutal shelling of South Ossetians by Georgian forces, and the Russian media does not mention the 'low-intensity' ethnic cleansing conflicts within the two enclaves, that were engineered by Russia so as to ensure a majority of pro-Russian separatists in Abhkazia and now South Ossetia. And not too many places mentioned the pipelines either.
Putin and Medvedev will be more popular in Russia, Saakashvili will be more popular in Georgia, even though both are exactly what their countries do not need.

The lessons we have to learn is this, whenever there is a war on, do not rush to judgement. We don't know for sure exactly what was planned here, even when we see the effects.

The Russians, took advantage of the ethnic conflict (partly flamed by themselves, and partly by Saakashvili and his backers c.f. the escalating tit-for-tat shelling of villages in South Ossetia in the run up to August 8th) to launch a long-planned invasion to re-assert Russian military dominance in the area, and to better position themselves for access to Caspian oil and at the same time undermine the certainty of Western access to the same oil and gas reserves (e.g. viathe Baku-Tblisi-Ceyhan pipeline, which can be taken out at any time by a Russian strike from Abhkazia or South Ossetia.
(this has been on their books for sometime, and Georgia was a natural choice for the venue. It's smaller than Poland, not already in NATO, as Estonia is (and Talinn is much closer to Moscow than Tblisi is) the two separatist enclaves are ideal for launching a twin axis pincer movement. Not to mention the Russian's Black Sea Naval fleet )

I see two likely answers.
Either the Russians planned to escalate the low-intensity conflict, by ordering more shelling of Georgian villages in the run up to 08/08/08 knowing that the Georgians would respond in kind, and most likely shell Tskhinvali, which they could use as a trigger for a Russian 'humanitarian intervention'.

The other, more complicated explanation, would be that Saakashvili is so committed to American policy that he would provoke a limited Russian invasion, that he knew he could not repel, but that American diplomatic manouvers would ensure did not result in a total over-run of the country and regime change (one hell of a gamble), just as an excuse to get US forces permanently based in Georgia, (small numbers at first, but with numbers increased once they withdraw from Iraq).

Either way, let's remember that no matter how it started, the vast majority of people were caught in the middle and even if they weren't killed or maimed, their lives were turned inside out by loss of friends, family, homes, being made refugees and carrying bitterness and paranoia long into the future, which will hinder attempts by people trying to bring genuine peace and justice into their society.

The NATO powers have certainly lost a lot in this. They've re-energised Russia, allowed Russia to send a message to its neighbours that cosying up to NATO on Russia's doorstep will not be without consequences, and that the NATO powers will not be unopposed in positioning themselves for upcoming grabs on Central Asian gas and oil reserves.

Of course for NATO, they can use the argument that a more aggressive Russian neighbour is exactly why you should let your government spend money to beef up the military and install and maintain a useless but extremely expensive 'missile shield'. All funded by taxpayers money that should be going to schools, hospitals and developing alternative energy, but diverted to Halliburton, Northrup Grumann, etc.

Thankfully, there are plenty of people who do not wait for the next war to try to show solidarity for the victims, but instead try to do it before the next war, by trying to dismantle the mentality, and the system that supports it. I'm thinking here of people like campaigners against the arms trade, peace and justice groups who lobby, organise vigils and boycotts, people who lobby for renewable energy so we're not dependent on the armed gangs competing for limited oil and gas reserves.

What we buy from these countries and their corporate sponsors, and what we let our governments sell to these countries has a lot more effect than our banners and our petitions and our marches (although, those do are worth doing and have some positive effects at times.)

by Armenian Tue Aug 19, 2008 16:56

" ...The Russians, took advantage of the ethnic conflict (partly flamed by themselves) .."

This cannot be true, because the conflict started in 1992, when Russia was in ruins itself, under Yieltsin. Thw ossetian and Abhazians, declared their independance simultainusly with Georgia.

But only Georgia , had the " valuable" American friends..
--------------------------------------------
"..Violent conflict broke out towards the end of 1991 during which many South Ossetian villages were attacked and burned down as were Georgian houses and schools in Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia. As a result, approximately 1,000 died and about 100,000 ethnic Ossetians fled the territory and Georgia proper, most across the border into North Ossetia. A further 23,000 ethnic Georgians fled South Ossetia and settled in other parts of Georgia.[20] Many South Ossetians were resettled in uninhabited areas of North Ossetia from which the Ingush had been expelled by Stalin in 1944, leading to conflicts between Ossetians and Ingush over the right of residence in former Ingush territory.

The monument to the victims of the Georgian-Ossetian conflict in TskhinvaliThe western part of South Ossetia was affected by the 1991 Racha-Java earthquake, which killed 200 and left 300 families homeless.

At the time of the dissolution of the USSR, the United States government recognized as legitimate the pre-Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact 1933 borders of the country (the government of Franklin D. Roosevelt established diplomatic relations with the Kremlin at the end of that year[21]). Because of this, the first Bush administration openly supported the secession of the Baltic countries, but regarded the questions related to the independence and territorial conflicts of Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan and the rest of the Transcaucasus — which were an integral part of the USSR with international borders unaltered since the 1920s — as internal Soviet affairs.[22]

In 1992, Georgia was forced to accept a ceasefire to avoid a large scale confrontation with Russia. The government of Georgia and South Ossetian separatists reached an agreement to avoid the use of force against one another, and Georgia pledged not to impose sanctions against South Ossetia. However, the Georgian government still retains control over substantial portions of South Ossetia, including the town of Akhalgori.[23] A peacekeeping force of Ossetians, Russians and Georgians was established. On November 6, 1992, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) set up a Mission in Georgia to monitor the peacekeeping operation. From then until mid-2004 South Ossetia was generally peaceful. In June 2004, tensions began to rise as the Georgian authorities strengthened their efforts against smuggling in the region.[24] Hostage takings, shootouts and occasional bombings left dozens dead and wounded. A ceasefire deal was reached on August 13 though it was repeatedly violated. Presently the situation is tense with war escalating. Moscow and Tskhinvali viewed the recent Georgian military build-up with concern. .." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia

by I-bawl. Tue Aug 19, 2008 21:37

" The Russians, took advantage of the ethnic conflict (partly flamed by themselves)."

This cannot be true, because the conflict started in 1992, when Russia was in ruins itself, under Yieltsin. Thw ossetian and Abhazians, declared their independance simultainusly with Georgia.

This cannot be true???

Why can someone not take advantage of a conflict in 2008, just because they were weaker when it started? Your statement is not logical. As long as the bitterness and resentment are still there, someone can add fuel to the fire. The old statement is true "No Justice, No Peace".

It is also not logical to assume that just because Russia was weak, and it's military was not as powerful as before, that it could not still use undercover agents to spread fear and hatred. It is an old trick done by all empires, even today by the Russians, Americans, British, Israelis, Chinese,etc...

And yes, the ethnic conflicts were flamed from both sides. That's what happens when two groups of people live in a region that bigger powers want to control. I'm sure I don't have to explain the mentality of it to you.

by Hugh Briss - Society to Stamp Out Intarweb Stupidity Tue Aug 19, 2008 22:46

the FACT that it was the Georgians that launched the initial attack on Ossetian territory and on Russian forces keeping the peace there seems to count for nothing when you apportion blame here. You seem intent in blaming the Russians for all of it.

It is also not logical to assume that just because Russia was weak, and it's military was not as powerful as before, that it could not still use undercover agents to spread fear and hatred.

Has this not been the modus operandi of the Neo-Cons over the last few years? How come you don't appear too eager to examine their role in all this?

by Hugh Briss - Society to Stamp Out Intarweb Stupidity Tue Aug 19, 2008 23:00

Well since we're on the subject:

IMHO this Georgian debacle really should be viewed as an attack on the Europeans by the Neo-Lib/Globalists.

Russia and the Caucasus regions as well as the 'Stans supply much of the energy requirements of major European nations. Many of these nations are competitors to the U.S.

Possibly this little Faux pas by the Israeli and US trained and financed Georgian Forces was a warning to the Europeans 'Get with the programme or freeze this winter'

I suspect Gas prices for a few or the more eastern Euro nations might rise dramatically this winter.

by I-bawl Wed Aug 20, 2008 00:02

the FACT that it was the Georgians that launched the initial attack on Ossetian territory and on Russian forces keeping the peace there seems to count for nothing when you apportion blame here. You seem intent in blaming the Russians for all of it.

FACT? It is a fact that the Georgians shelled Tskhinvali, but what is not established for sure, is what was going on inside South Ossetia immediately before the attack on Tskhinvali. There have been several reports of escalations of exchanges of artillery fire between both sides in the run up to the attack on Tskhinvali. When we know more about that situation, then we will be more justified in declaring certain things as FACT.
Being skeptical in the absence of clear evidence does not equate to taking sides.

Of course I condemn the Georgian military for shelling civilians in Tskhinvali. However, unlike you, I am prepared to criticise the Russians as well, something you seem incapable off.
You are 100% dishonest when you say I seem intent on blaming the Russians for all of it, when every post I have made regarding this conflict has apportioned blame to both sides.
I have lost all respect for your comments as a result of your dishonesty. A difference of opinion is fine, but you are a liar or a troll.

And to call it a FACT that Russia forces are keeping the peace shows an enormous bias on your part.
I'm sure a lot of people in Ossetia are glad to be evacuated to Russian mobile hospitals, but go ask the people of Gori, who were bombed while queing for food, go ask the ethnic Georgians who were ethnically cleansed from Abhkazia and S.Ossetia, about these Russian "peacekeepers" you admire so much.

Has this not been the modus operandi of the Neo-Cons over the last few years? How come you don't appear too eager to examine their role in all this?

Here you show your true colours. You quote one sentence, knowing that the sentence immediately afterwards was :
"It is an old trick done by all empires, even today by the Russians, Americans, British, Israelis, Chinese,etc..."
so in what way, would an honest person consider me to be accusing only one side of stooping to such tactics? (If you need to take time to go find an honest person, take the time. Nobody is holding their breath for your next dose of wisdom. )

Instead of trying to dodge that in your next comment, have the guts to answer it, or stop trolling.

I have said time and time again that the interference of both NATO and Russia is bad news for the ordinary people of the region.
When are we going to see a comment from you admitting that the Russians motives are less than noble? I would refer to a comment of yours in another thread, but I think that's against Indymedia rules. Suffice it to say, only one of us is prepared to see the truth of this situation, that neither the Kremlin nor Saakashvili and his NATO masters have the best interests of the population at heart.

IMHO this Georgian debacle really should be viewed as an attack on the Europeans by the Neo-Lib/Globalists.

Did you dream that up yourself, or did some of your paranoid friends from the Infowars comments page help you?
I won't waste my time ripping your arguments to shreds, as logic and reason have no effect on what you choose to believe anyway.
Goodbye Mr. Hubris.

by Hugh Briss - Society to Stamp Out Intarweb Stupidity Wed Aug 20, 2008 00:48

For some reason i-Bawl doesn't wanna play any more :(

Did you dream that up yourself, or did some of your paranoid friends from the Infowars comments page help you?

You're hilarious. As soon as anyone says anything original you immediatly start ranting about 'Infowars'.

Personally I can safely say I haven't visited any alex Jones-related site in at least 2 weeks.

I do a lot of surfing by the way. I might read 200 or more news-related web pages in a 2/3 day period.

If you can't see the threat posed to european gas supply by Neo-Lib/Globalist sponsored puppet-regimes of the ex-USSR then I doubt you're as expert on geopolitics as you like to think you are.

Control of the flow of energy is more important than who actually owns the energy. You can own Billions of cubic meters of oil or Gas, but if you can't get your hands on it then it's as much use to you as tits on a bloke.

by Hugh Briss - Society to Stamp Out Intarweb Stupidity Wed Aug 20, 2008 01:06

Here you show your true colours. You quote one sentence, knowing that the sentence immediately afterwards was :
"It is an old trick done by all empires, even today by the Russians, Americans, British, Israelis, Chinese,etc..."
so in what way, would an honest person consider me to be accusing only one side of stooping to such tactics? (If you need to take time to go find an honest person, take the time. Nobody is holding their breath for your next dose of wisdom. )

I've linked to an number of web pages that quite clearly show Israeli and US supplying and training the Georgian forces and War gaming with them immediately prior to the unexpected invasion of the territory controlled by the Russian Peacekeeping forces. Territory which it was agreed by both the Russians and the Georgians that would be controlled by Russian Peacekeepers in a peacetreaty signed in 1992.

There is also evidence of Russian wargaming on the opposite side of the Cacusus mountains.

It appears to ME, that the Russian wargames were a reaction to the NATO/Georgian wargames. You appear to dispute that.

So far you have provided little to back up your assertion that the Russians were the ones exacerbating this situation, though you do make sure to hint that there may be such evidence to be had:

When we know more about that situation, then we will be more justified in declaring certain things as FACT.

When I said
Has this not been the modus operandi of the Neo-Cons over the last few years? How come you don't appear too eager to examine their role in all this?

it was in the hope you might actually attempt to answer that question

You chose not to

I'm sure a lot of people in Ossetia are glad to be evacuated to Russian mobile hospitals, but go ask the people of Gori, who were bombed while queing for food, go ask the ethnic Georgians who were ethnically cleansed from Abhkazia and S.Ossetia, about these Russian "peacekeepers" you admire so much. (Who says I admire the Russian Peacekeepers? Are you making up stuff now?)

Where's your evidence for this statement? Remember that little rant about FACT you had a the beginning of you post:

FACT? It is a fact that the Georgians shelled Tskhinvali, but what is not established for sure, is what was going on inside South Ossetia immediately before the attack on Tskhinvali. There have been several reports of escalations of exchanges of artillery fire between both sides in the run up to the attack on Tskhinvali. When we know more about that situation, then we will be more justified in declaring certain things as FACT.
Being skeptical in the absence of clear evidence does not equate to taking sides.

For a person ranting at me that I should wait for the FACTS you're doing quite a lot of NOT-waiting yourself

It appears to me both sides have been playing up the number of dead.

As the smoke and lies begin to clear it appears both sides behaved rather humanely (for greedy warmongers) given the history between the two and given the scale of slaughter other similar conflicts have produced (eg the Rape of the former Yugoslavia)

by Armenian Wed Aug 20, 2008 09:18

"... Why can someone not take advantage of a conflict in 2008, just because they were weaker when it started? Your statement is not logical. .."

ok.. this is also true.. but.. "why someone start fire in his own backyard ?"

The S Ossetia was indepentant since 1992 though was not recognised from UN. They requested officially to reunite with N Ossetia ( Beslan if U remember..) .
It was obvius to Russia , that NATo was looking for an exscuse to deploy NATO forces in Georgia ..

So.. why Russia inlame theiw backyard.?

It is true that there was unrest thw last year, with the Georgian trying to occupy more ossetian vilages around Tsnhivalli , and is true they were sheeling Ossetia .. and it was true that the Ossetian hiting back.

Is also true that a month ago .. there was a common military drill with around 1.000 US troops in Georgia.. and is aslo true that the Georgians 20 days before the invasion started EVACUATINg Gori , from all the children,

So my friend , these what Im saying area facts.. and up to U to make your own conclusions..
WAR is horible espasially if you have seen it close.. not as TV show, and Im amazed from thw fact that thw ANTIWar movement in Europe is SOOOOOOOOO pathetic in this US - NATO - Georgian Agression.

Husein has been tried for less..
Saakashvili should sit .. with Karatzits.. in the court.. next chair..

regards..

by I-bawl Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:11

The S Ossetia was indepentant since 1992 though was not recognised from UN. They requested officially to reunite with N Ossetia ( Beslan if U remember..) .

Control of territory should be dependent on the agreement of the inhabitants, but in practice territory is always controlled or given up for strategic reasons, or lost in a war.
Thinking about it, do you think it would be such a big problem to grant them full independence if not for the paranoia that they would be used as pawns by Russia? That's part of the problem of putting in puppet leaders, they think and act just like their masters. Russia may support Abhkazian and South Ossetian independence from Tblisi, but as long as their is oil and gas going through Georgia, Russia will never allow Abhkazia or South Ossetia to act independently of Moscow.

It was obvius to Russia , that NATo was looking for an exscuse to deploy NATO forces in Georgia ..

I agree with you 100%, and it was also obvious to NATO and Saakashvili that the Russians had been conducting war games at the same time as the US and Israelis were conducting training war games with the Georgian army.
However, the positioning of troops in Georgia is not in itself cause to go to war. After all, Estonia is a lot closer to Moscow and they're already in NATO.

So.. why Russia inlame theiw backyard.?

both sides inflamed the region, because of one reason, the pipelines crossing Georgia are the only realistic ways for the companies of the NATO countries to bring Caspian Oil & Gas to Turkey without passing through Russia or Iran.
Russia doesn't like that, but the NATO countries are determined to make it happen. And when you have two armed gangs who don't like to share, things are going to get hot.

It is true that there was unrest thw last year, with the Georgian trying to occupy more ossetian vilages around Tsnhivalli , and is true they were sheeling Ossetia .. and it was true that the Ossetian hiting back.

You see, this is where it gets murky. Georgia can use the same argument as Russia. Russia can say Georgia's attack on Tskhinvali was ethnic cleansing and it needed to respond. And Georgia can say the displacement of ethnic Georgians from Abhkazia and South Ossetia entitles them to respond. In both cases, its not the rights of the people their worried about, rather than the loyalty of the enclave towards either Moscow or Tblisi.

Is also true that a month ago .. there was a common military drill with around 1.000 US troops in Georgia.. and is aslo true that the Georgians 20 days before the invasion started EVACUATINg Gori , from all the children,

I didn't hear about the evacuation drill. I did read that Saakashvili had said (before 08/08/08) that he had information that Russia was planning a major intervention in September. I think that was from a BBC report from July, but I don't recall.

So my friend , these what Im saying area facts.. and up to U to make your own conclusions..

Well, I still haven't reached a solid detailed conclusion. There's a lot to make sense of. People who are too quick to judge often assume the attacks came out of the blue, whereas in reality both sides had been preparing for conflict, so things like the exercises in themselves are not evidence of who started it.

WAR is horible espasially if you have seen it close.. not as TV show, and Im amazed from thw fact that thw ANTIWar movement in Europe is SOOOOOOOOO pathetic in this US - NATO - Georgian Agression.

The Anti War movement in Europe is not as well funded or organised as NATO or the Western Media, so cut them some slack.
They have all called for an end to the fighting which is more important that the question of who started it (which is not always clear anyway)
There have been a few statements from antiwar groups in Ireland for example condemning the Georgians, so it's not like everyone has put the blame 100% on Russia. Others, like myself see that both parties share the guilt, and of course being in the middle means you get angry drivel from by over-excited people on both sides. I'm glad you are someone who can debate in a civilised manner.

Husein has been tried for less..

in fairness, Hussein did a hell of a lot more not less, but Saakashvili should be on trial, along with Putin and Medvedev and George Bush. I excuse none of them. If they weren't so damned obsessed with getting control of the oil, they could easily reach a final settlement about the status of Abhkazia and South Ossetia. But control of big oil always brings in big guns, and when you start putting weapons all over the place, you breed bitterness, distrust, and violence, and the chances of getting on with the neighbours get pretty small pretty quickly.

Saakashvili should sit .. with Karatzits.. in the court.. next chair..

Unfortunately, that's very unlikely to happen. It's only small warmongers, who have lost the backing of their bigger ally who end up in the Hague. The big guys never go to the Hague. Bush won't end up there, Blair won't end up there, Putin, Reagan, Clinton, (insert name of Israeli leader of choice here)...

Regards..

I-bawl.

by Armenian Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:48

[... Russian military dominance in the area, and to better position themselves for access to Caspian oil and at the same time undermine the certainty of Western access to the same oil and gas reserves (e.g. viathe Baku-Tblisi-Ceyhan pipeline, which can be taken out at any time by a Russian strike from Abhkazia or South Ossetia..]

Russia can destroy the Baku- Tseihan , any time .. from any point inside Russia, even using thw short range ISKANDERs..
This is not the point. Russia I dont think wants to confront, with the rest of Europe..
If wanted so.. just imagine .. to inflame Nagorno - karabah.. so the Armenian forces Attack the Oil rings in BAKU alltogether .. an easy target..
So, before any conclusions and statements .. it will be valuable to get some knowledge for the area.. where more then 20 ethnic groups .. managed so far to coexcist...

by Dear I-bawl.. Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:18

1. Ossetia, Abhazia, even Armenai .. are too small to survive as an isolated state . Imagine Kossovo , or Bosnia in balkans.. the best they can hope for is ..TO BECOME a PROTECTORATE. ossetian and Abhazians , althouth different ethnic groupe, (Alanians .. and Abhazians) all have close ties with Russia , and common langauage . So for them the natural selection is not to be alone.. but included within thw Russian federation , for survival and protection reasons. Even Armenia if was not border isolated from Russia . would apply to rejoin thw Russian federation. Is a matter of realism and survival . Russian federation is a MULTI ETHNIC and MULTI relagion structure. Just remember.. STALIN and lavrendi Beria ( chief of NKVD) were georgians.. !!! , from GORI and Shohoumi.

2. With today evaluation I think the possitioning of NATO arms in kavkaz .. is a casus beli for Russia, is like Russia positioning Nukes in Cuba say..

3. Russia dosnt like BAKU Tseihan, but with BOURGAS - ALEXANDOUPOLIS pipe has already counter reply to that. For Russia there is no paln to military confront , commercial issues. Dont want that . They have all the means to control energy through GAZ Prom and LukOIL .. so I dont think it would be reasonable to inflame a war in their backyard .. foe BAKU - Tseihan.. As I said.. would be more "productive" to inflame Nagorno - karabah .. and follow thw destruction of BAKU Oil rings in Shah Deniz all together..

4. The expelsion of georgian from Abhazia .. was 15 years back.. and followed the first failed attempt of the Georgians to invate and capture Shohoumi in 1992. They had bombed Sohumi worst then Tskhinvali . But what happened 15 years ago cannot justify what happened a week ago. Also .. although there was "mild" fighinh WITHIN S OSSETIAN borders .. still the attack and the bpmbardment of civilian targets , and attack agains the Ruusian stationed force of 500 "peace keepers" was from the Georgian side. They vanished 1.500 people in ONE NIGHT..!!!

5. " ... I didn't hear about the evacuation drill.." ok look at this .. !!!!!http://en.rian.ru/world/20080708/113518283.html

and also more generally this http://en.rian.ru/search/?p=31&query=S.+ossetia&s_type=...50729

regards...

by I-bawl. Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:33

Russia can destroy the Baku- Tseihan , any time .. from any point inside Russia, even using thw short range ISKANDERs..

Yes of course they could use a missile strike, but this is a like a game of chess. You don't escalate things too quickly in brinkmanship if you don't have to. If we assumed the Russians wanted to stop Baku sending oil West, they could hold the missiles in reserve, while using the cover of some other crisis to put pressure either by force or blackmail, or sabotage.

This is not the point. Russia I dont think wants to confront, with the rest of Europe..

Russia does not want to confront the rest of Europe militarily, yet. And the EU doesn't want to confront Russia militarily. But remember these people do not think like us. The big powers want to get something, and they will use intimidation, espionage, blackmail, and all the other political moves to get it. If those tactics do not succeed, THEN they will use force.
It doesn't matter that the average Russian, American or Frenchman doesn't want a war. If that's what the leaders think will get them their goal, that's what they use.

The challenge for control of Caspian Oil has not come to a head yet. But if and when it does, force will be used.

If wanted so.. just imagine .. to inflame Nagorno - karabah.. so the Armenian forces Attack the Oil rings in BAKU alltogether .. an easy target..

Well, there's plenty of time before that would even be an option, after all, the Russian pipelines would need to be upgraded as their capacity is a lot lower than the BTC pipeline, so it wouldn't be wise to move to early, as the production would be backed up with nowhere to go.

This gives the rest of us time to wake up, and use less oil and gas, demand that our governments stop sending weapons to nasty puppet governments and dismantle NATO, and hopefully the people in Russia will shake off the KGB puppets running their country as well. - perhaps I'm too optimistic, but you got hope for something.

by refering to map above.. ( ethnic groups..) Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:39

The Vostok batalion .. done most of the job so far, THERE are no Ethnic Russian in this corp. Mosta are coming from the kavkaz area, being mostly , Kabardin, ossetians( N) and mostly Tsetsens..

by Agree. ... but... Wed Aug 20, 2008 13:24 arpakola at gmail dot com

[... 1. This gives the rest of us time to wake up, and use less oil and gas,

.. 2. demand that our governments stop sending weapons to nasty puppet governments and dismantle NATO,

3.....and hopefully the people in Russia will shake off the KGB puppets running their country as well. - perhaps I'm too optimistic, but you got hope for something ....]

1. agree
2. agree
3. agree , but with the assuption that this will apply TO ALL CAPITALIST and IMPERIALST goverments, of Europe, America , every where.. because if we focus this talking only , against Putin or Mednendef .. then is a BIASED statement, ..

regards..

by I-bawl Wed Aug 20, 2008 14:45

Yes, I would mean for that to apply to all governments.

by Armenian Wed Aug 20, 2008 17:04

After Abkhazia and S.Ossetia .. Transdnister and Crimea to follow ??
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[...Abkhazia officially appeals to Russia for independence
The Abkhazian Parliament has approved an official appeal to Russia to recognise its independence.

The appeal was made by Abkhazian President Sergey Bagapsh to Russia and to the governments of other countries to recognise Abkhazia's independence. Bagapsh, who was present at the parliament session, said that now, a week after Georgia's aggression against South Ossetia, is the best time for both Abkhazia's and South Ossetia's recognition.

All the deputies who took part at the session agreed that the Abkhazians as well as South Ossetians can not live together with the Georgians in one state.

A rally is planned for tomorrow in Abkhazia's capital of Sukhumi and thousands of people are expected to come to express their support. Back in 1999 there was a referendum held in the breakaway republic on its future status, and 97.7 per cent of the voters supported the idea of independence.

"We will support any decision on the status of Abkhazia and South Ossetia made by their people in accordance with the UN Charter and other international conventions. We will not only support such decisions, we will guarantee their enforcement,” Medvedev said last week. ..]

by ETHNIC MAP of KAVKAZ Fri Aug 22, 2008 06:28

here is the ethnic map of Kavkaz
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/3938/zzzzzzcaucasusm...7.jpg

and a language map
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/645/caucasusuf4.jpg

by Armenian Fri Aug 22, 2008 07:16

Israel's involvement in the Ossetian WAR '

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1834785,0....html

"It is important that the entire world understands that what is happening in Georgia now will affect the entire world order," Georgian Cabinet Minister Temur Yakobashvili said last weekend. "It's not just Georgia's business, but the entire world's business." Such sentiments would have been unremarkable but for the fact that Yakobashvili was expressing himself in fluent Hebrew, telling Israeli Army Radio that "Israel should be proud of its military, which trained Georgian soldiers."
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However, the impression that Israel had helped bolster the Georgian military was one the Israeli Foreign Ministry was anxious to avoid. Last Saturday it reportedly recommended a freeze on the further supply of equipment and expertise to Georgia by Israeli defense contractors. (Israel doesn't supply foreign militaries directly, but its private contractors must get Defense Ministry approval for such deals.) The Israelis decided to refrain from authorizing new defense contracts, although those currently in effect will be fulfilled. Israel stressed that the contracts are to provide equipment for defensive purposes. But if the Israelis were looking to downplay the significance of military ties, they weren't helped by comments like Yakobashvili's — or by Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili's enthusing at a press conference earlier this week that "the Israeli weapons have been very effective."

Nor did the Russians fail to notice. "Israel armed the Georgian army," grumbled General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy chief of staff of the Russian military, at a press conference in Moscow earlier this week. An Israeli paper had, last weekend, quoted an unnamed official warning that Israel needed "to be very careful and sensitive these days. The Russians are selling many arms to Iran and Syria, and there is no need to offer them an excuse to sell even more advanced weapons." As if on cue, on Wednesday, Syrian President Bashar al-Assad arrived in Moscow hoping to persuade Russia to sell him sophisticated air-defense systems — and reportedly offering the Russian navy the use of one of its Mediterranean ports. Late on Wednesday, the Israeli Foreign Ministry announced that Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Russian President Dmitri Medvedev had spoken on the phone to clear the air over the Georgia conflict and Russian arms sales to Syria.

The extent of involvement in Georgia by Israeli defense contractors may be overstated, and most of the equipment used by the Georgian military comes from the U.S. and other suppliers. Still, Israeli companies had been sufficiently involved in supplying specialized equipment and advanced tactical training to the Georgian military that the connection — and Russia's perception of it — created a ripple of anxiety in Israeli government circles. Israeli officials say that, in anticipation of a showdown between Georgia and Russia, Israel began to scale back the involvement of Israeli companies in Georgia as early as the end of 2007. Georgia's Yakobashvili charged this week that Israel, "at Russia's behest," had downgraded military ties with Georgia, a decision he branded a "disgrace."

Israel's weapons sales, just like Russia's, are driven by the commercial interests of domestic arms industries. Israeli military exports to Georgia are driven more by the logic of business than by a strategic choice to back Tbilisi against Moscow — indeed, the Israeli response since the outbreak of hostilities is a reminder that, on balance, even a relatively cool friendship with Russia may be more important to Israel than a close alliance with tiny Georgia. Despite Israel's pecuniary imperative, Georgia has used these commercial military ties to press closer ties on Israel.

President Saakashvili has noted that both his minister responsible for negotiations over South Ossetia (Yakobashvili) and his Defense Minister, Davit Kezerashvili, had lived in Israel before moving to post-Soviet Georgia. According to the Israeli daily Haaretz, the Georgian leader this week enthused that in Tbilisi, "both war and peace are in the hands of Israeli Jews." Working through the Georgian Defense Ministry (and with the approval of its Israeli counterpart), Israeli companies are reported to have supplied the Georgians with pilotless drones, night-vision equipment, anti-aircraft equipment, shells, rockets and various electronic systems. Even more important than equipment may have been the advanced tactical training and consultancy provided, as private contractors, by retired top Israeli generals such as Yisrael Ziv and Gal Hirsch, the man who commanded Israeli ground forces during their disastrous foray into Lebanon in 2006. (Never one to resist an opportunity to mock his enemies, Hizballah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah quipped in a speech this week, "Gal Hirsch, who was defeated in Lebanon, went to Georgia, and they too lost because of him.") Not necessarily: Russia applied overwhelming force against the tiny Georgian military, which, according to Israeli assessments, still managed to punch above its weight.

The Russians were piqued by Israel's military trade with Georgia even before the latest outbreak of hostilities — Moscow expressed its annoyance over the pilotless drones supplied by an Israeli company to the Georgians, three of which were downed by Russian aircraft over South Ossetia in recent months. Obviously mindful of the need to avoid provoking Russia, Israel declared off-limits certain weapons systems the Georgians had asked for, such as Merkava tanks and advanced anti-aircraft systems. "We have turned down many requests involving arms sales to Georgia, and the ones that have been approved have been duly scrutinized," a Defense Ministry official told the Israeli daily Yediot Ahoronot amid concerns raised over a possible fallout from the Israeli ties to the Georgian military. The extent of damage to the Israeli-Russia relationship — if indeed there is any — remains to be seen. Despite General Nogovitsyn's comments, Israeli officials say they have received no formal complaints from Russia over ties with Georgia.

Israel's strategic priority now is countering the threat it sees in Iran's nuclear program, and on that front, Russian cooperation is essential. If the Israelis are to achieve their objective of forcing Iran to end uranium enrichment through diplomatic coercion, they will need Russian support for escalating U.N. sanctions — a course of action for which Russia has thus far shown little enthusiasm. And if Israel were to opt for trying to destroy Tehran's nuclear facilities through a series of air strikes, then the presence of the sophisticated Russian S-300 missile system in Iran would considerably raise the risk to Israeli pilots. Unfortunately for Israel, however, there may be little it can do to shape Moscow's Iran policy for the simple reason that Israel is not a major factor in Russia's strategic outlook. Moscow's actions on Iran are less likely to be determined by Israel supplying a few drones to Georgia than they are to be shaped, for example, by the deployment over extreme Russian objections of U.S. interceptor missiles on Polish soil.

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Apart Ukrane and Tsexian republic , Turkey and Greece even supplied Saakasvili regime with advanced weapons.

The greek missile carrier DIOSKOURIA ( ex BATSIS) donated from Greece to Georgia
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/1616/zzzdioskuriahg4.jpg

here is in Poti area ( google) ..
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/5333/potigeorgiannav...8.jpg

here sunked inside Poti .. blown by the Russians
http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/1906/23423bw1.png
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by Hubris - Society to Out i-Bawl as a Shill Thu Jan 01, 2009 20:45

Russia cuts gas to Ukraine - (http://uk.reuters.com/article/oilRpt/idUKLV63476520090101)

Russia said on Thursday it had completely cut gas to its
neighbour Ukraine over a contract dispute but assured European
states worried about disruptions to their supplies that gas was
flowing to them as normal.

Me quoting Me (Tue Aug 19, 2008 23:00)

[The] Georgian debacle really should be viewed as an attack on the Europeans by the Neo-Lib/Globalists.

Russia and the Caucasus regions as well as the 'Stans supply much of the energy requirements of major European nations. Many of these nations are competitors to the U.S.

Possibly this little Faux pas by the Israeli and US trained and financed Georgian Forces was a warning to the Europeans 'Get with the programme or freeze this winter'

I suspect Gas prices for a few or the more eastern Euro nations might rise dramatically this winter.