Sell-Outs?!?!?! Sinn Fein, the Good Friday Agreement, and the World

by Tom Shelley Wed Apr 15, 2009 05:46 Boulder, CO USA

Although I've hinted at this here and there, including on my blog, in this discussion there's one thing I may have given people the wrong idea about, and I provided the URL for this discussion in the comments for the Slayer post, so people will be reading this discussion when they look at that post.

In the last comment I suggested that the way to deal with Nazi Skinheads is through violence. The way I worded it suggested that I am not interested dialogue with them. I fully support people who do engage Nazi Skinheads in dialogue and am willing to do it myself. There are good reasons for simultaneously supporting beating them up and also talking with them, although in most ways it's probably uncommon for one person to do both (with the Internet, it's common for the two sides in that physical conflict to talk with each other on-line) But the broad ant-racist movement can do both. So, I support trying to convert them through words as well as beating them up.

Tom

by Tom Shelley Wed Apr 08, 2009 21:38 Boulder, CO USA

I just added the following to the blog post:

(I don't know why this is the first time I heard about that song being anti-Nazi, that's wierd; also, any chance you're the one who made that video on youtube with the WWIi footage? The author's Irish)

It took me a while to work on this comment and I just saw your latest comment, here's my response.

You're probably right about their response, but let me explain this to you. Nazi skinheads kill people, almost always without justification and often through bigotry and potentially they will kill leftists who they don't hate through bigotry (excluding anti-racist skins who are legitimate targets). in general racism does great damage to people's lives and our societies. It hurts lots of people, and even though I'm an ally across the board, it hurts me too in different ways. If I'm right about them doing damage (they have a lot of fans), I consider that unacceptable. If you do something like this, where you fuel racism on a large scale (they have a lot of fans), I will not remain silent about it. And there is evidence that people have had their beliefs negatively affected by Slayer, we're not talking about offending people in a way that doesn't do damage. I am determined to do what ever I can to roll back hatred and inequality- I also believe very strongly in supporting anti-racist skinheads and I believe that beating the shit out of nazi skinheads is very helpful to the anti-racist cause; I am not going to push that (to some degree I have pushed it on my blog) and not do whatever I can to keep people from becoming nazi skinheads in the first place.

I didn't say they were 10% racist, I said there's a 10% chance they're racst- once again, they want me to say 100%, they should go a little further than they have. there's a group in America that's racist and ant-semitic. At one point they had both anti-semites and RACIST JEWS at their conferences- the Jews were considered allies and friends until the anti-semitism became too much and they left. So, even though Jews were speaking at their conferences as friends, it was an anti-semitic organization. So if Slayer wants me to say 100% they have to do a little more.

Once again, I am not going to say, just beat the shit out them after they become nazi skinheads, that'll take care of it. I am interested in addressing anything that leads them to become nazi skinheads in the first place.

From my blog
UPDATES 4/8/09
1. A good source confirms that Jeff Hanneman is Jewish and is very interested in WWII and that would explain the two songs about the Nazis since he wrote them.
2. Apparently the song "Behind the Crooked Cross" is anti-nazi, although I can't imagine more than 20% of their fans know that because I'm very interested in Nazism and I only just now learned that "Crooked Cross" is another term for swastika (if the video I found on YouTube, which makes it clear it is about WWII, is official, then that goes up to about 90%, but I cannot find anything, so I assume at this point the video is unofficial).
3. I have lowered my estimate of the liklihhod that they're racist from 20% to 10% and am now saying they have done 3 things to balance out "guilty of Being white" and counter the damage they've done (I'm not giving full credit to those three songs- they're not explicit enough). They still have to get up to 7, at the very least. I have made a couple changes to the material above.
******

by Paddy Wed Apr 08, 2009 20:32

You're missing the entire point of a band like Slayer; that is, to challenge what is consdered politically correct, be provocative, and basically offend people who are sensitive, in this case politically. When people such as yourself get their knickers in a twist over whether Slayer are "10% racist" (whatever that means), i'm sure the band have a good old laugh to themselves. I'm afraid you're little more than the leftie equivalent of Mary Whitehouse, lecturing at artists over what is or isn't morally acceptable to express through their art. Whether some skinheads pick up on the lyrics to Angel of Death and think it's an ode to the holocaust is irrelevant - the responsibilty isn't on the band to 'impress' you with their subsequent denials that they're nazis. Why would they care? They aren't politcians making grand gestures but heavy metal musicians trying to express the darker aspects of humanity.

by tOM sHELLEY Wed Apr 08, 2009 20:15

I am really sorry. I can't believe this. I kind of skipped over your reference to crooked cross. For some reason, this is the first time I have heard anyone refer to that in this way. I'll look at the lyrics and maybe adjust what I say. That would put them probably about 1/3 towards where they ought to be, although I would still say something very similar to what I have been writing, unless that song is ridicuously explicit, but I doubt it is.

So I mostly stand by what I have written, but for some stupid reason I ignored what you said about that song.

Tom

by Tom Shelley Wed Apr 08, 2009 20:10

I couldn't have hurt if I had mentioned the thing about an interest in WWII, I will add it although it seems pretty minor and I indicated that the lyrics to Angel of death and SS-3 were almost anti-, although a lot of nazis don't think so.

Their denials barely impress me. You can say I'm attaching less weight to "Disorder" and being on def Jam than I should, but I just made a small change to the post so that I'm now saying 10% chance they're racist, and I will not go any lower as I explained. Their denials really don't impress me- at one point, Ian Stuart Donaldson was denying he was a nazi before he came out. you do a song called "guilty of being white" you should make it clear that anti-whte racism is a small problem compared to white supremacy, and they have not done enough on that. And they should, especially considering what I've written about in that post, make it very clear that nazis are unwelcome. if you include the anti-racists, a huge chunk of their fans are at risk of being attacked by nazis- probably 5% of their fans are people of color, probably about 1% are jewish, probably about 5% are gay, probably about 20% are allies. And almost anyone is in danger of being attacked by these people, and I am certain that a lot of boneheads are people who would be a lot less violent if they weren't nazis, and there's reason to believe that a significant number of people have become racists in connection with Slayer, at least since they covered that song and maybe to a small degree before that, and then these racists come into contact with boneheads at slayer shows, and some of them become boneheads. The odds are very high this happened, I have heard of two punks who became boneheads because of the presence of boneheads in the scene.

When boneheads would show up at Black flag shows, Rollins would make fun of them and the band would end up getting attacked after shows. once again, slayer is not completely non-political and should make it clear where they stand, make it clear that they do not want boneheads as fans.

When I did an event featuring a rep of Sinn fein, the AOH showed up and wanted to put out their lit. i told them no. Now, i called another leader of the group sponsoring the event and asked her, and she said let them put out their lit. Since I knew she wasn't sympathetic to the AOH (she's very liberal and Jewish) I let them put out their literature. But if I was willing to do that with the AOH, slayer should make it very clear that NAZI SKINHEADS are not welcome as fans. Not to mention there is some damage for them to make up for. you can find that fash discussion via http://devlin-mcaliskey.blogspot.com/2008/12/slaytanic-wehrmacht.html at the bottom)

Tom

by Paddy Wed Apr 08, 2009 19:34

Actually the band have said themselves, on numerous occasions, that they aren't Nazis nor do they condone it but are merely interested in the subject. Much of the accusations stem from the fact that guitarist Jeff Hanneman collects WWII items. He's Jewish though and his father fought in the war. Hence the lyrics to 'Angel of Death'. The band make it fairly obvious they aren't Nazis on 'Behind the Crooked Cross'. It isn't their job to tell people what is or isnt wrong, and it's not their fault either if skinheads want to misinterpret them.

by Tom Shelley Wed Apr 08, 2009 18:25 Boulder, CO USA

On one hand, I probably could have said something closer to 100% instead of 80%, but if they want me to say 100% they shouldn't have twisted the lyrics to "Guilty Of Being White," they shouldn't have named their fan-club the way they did, they shouldn't have used nazi symbols, and/OR they should make it clearer that they're anti-racist.

Although I can't prove as much as I'd like, the *****.org discussion and common sense tells me that they have done damage, although probably almost all of that was SINCE they covered "guilty of being white."

If they were singing about satanism and serial killers and beer and women, I wouldn't say shit. But they're a sort of political band, and if you sing a song called "guilty of Being White" and you know you have a lot of nazi skins as fans (plus the other stuff I mentioned), you had better make it damn fucking clear how you feel about white supremacy, and do so repeatedly. Otherwise you give people the wrong idea.

Tom

by Paddy Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:53

As a Slayer fan I can confirm that yes, your article on Slayer was indeed a waste of time. Anyone with even a modicum of interest in the band is well aware that they aren't racist.
Singing about something does not equate with advocating it.

by Tom Shelley Sun Mar 22, 2009 21:19

I just realized after I published that I did that "article" sort of wrong- now the journalistic integrity of Indymedia.ie is shattered (I'm joking, but it's not meant as an insult; and I am sorry that my "article" was a little off).

It can't hurt if I now explain some stuff about my blog (some of this might be better ON my blog, but for various reasons right now I'm going to explain it here)

My blog is primarily about three themes- republicanism, socialism, and opposition to bigotry, and primarily revolves around the North (there's only 2 posts that have nothing to do with the North at all). I'll go into some more detail shortly. Also, it's probably safe to say that I sometimes tackle issues which seem to be (and quite possibly are) kind of on the fringe, or I take "interesting" approaches to stuff. I figure there's enough people doing posts that say "diversity is good," I want to tackle aspects that are not being covered, or offer thoughts that might be helpful that people don't know or haven't considered.

I guarantee you that even with the stuff that is about Ireland, there's a small amount that you won't have already known because it basically comes from my personal experiences doing activism on the North (mostly in America, but occassionally there will be stuff about my trips to Ireland).

Briefly, some stuff about me. I'm an Irish-American socialist (democratic Marxist/left-wing social democrat). I largely support SF, although I'm certainly not uncritical about it and there are other organizations there I have positive feelings about (besides SF, the top the 4 include: the Pat Finucane Centre, the ILP and the SEA/SWP). From 1994 (and to small degree the three years before that) when I was in High School) until about 2004 I did tons of left-wing activism, and almost as much (more or less) republican activism (I've been to Ireland, mostly the North, 3 times for a total of 2 months). Since then for personal/political reasons I have done VERY little. A small part of doing the blog is to help me ease back into doing activism.

As you'll figure out, I take other people's songs and alter them, although on average I change about 25% of the lyrics, and there's about 5 that are about 80% me. There's three catgeories for how I alter them. One is just one song, I took a feminist song written from a woman's point of view and turned it into a feminist song from a male's point of view; another is taking stuff that's generally left-wing and making it about N. Ireland, or vice versa. The last category is where I twist lyrics and turn them on their heads, I explain that in the first lyrics post at http://devlin-mcaliskey.blogspot.com/2009/01/just-call-me-billy-bragg.html Also, please read the post it links to as far as why I listen to that shit in the first place.

I've decided that I'm going to address something premptively about that last category because I fele vulnerable about it since I'm sure that about 1/2 of people who more or less have my politics won't like what I'm doing with those lyrics (I just learned recently that it might be closer to 1/3, but I'm still going to say this anyway- the last thing I need right now is people I like politically and/or persoanlly thinking negative things about me) and my life's kind of a disaster and I have done very little activism the last five years. If you don't like what I'm doing with those lyrics, that's fine, but don't hold it against me- my record on fighting what that music stands for is amazing, depending on what you adjust for, I'm somewhere in the top 30% of American leftists acting as allies, I can go into details if needed. I can do whatever I want to with those lyrics. Also, the response from certain groups has leaned towards positive.

I almost forgot to explain, i do the lyrics for two reasons- some of the are amazing songs, and they give me a chance to explain stuff and spout off; also the process of "writing" them is fun and creative.

I think that's it. Below is a description of each post so you'll know which ones are worth your time.

Tom

"Bernadette Devlin-McAliskey" Briefly describes one of Ireland's top 3 greatest republicans/socialists/anti-racists/etc.

"The Liam Quinn Brigade" Discussion of racism in Ireland.

"American Democracy" Discusses ways to make America more democratic.

"Slaytanic Wehrmacht" I'm open minded to the possibility that this one was a waste of my time, but I discuss whether or not the thrash-metal band Slayer is racist and why they should do more to counter racism among their fans. SLAYER!!!!!

"SMASH COMBAT 18" Mostly just a link to an awesome YouTube video that explains how the IRA is going to smash Combat 18 (an armed Nazi organization).

"Guilty of Being White" Explains that A) the concept that people of color can't be racist is ridiculous and B) that that concept is damaging the anti-racist cause.

"In Memory of Mordechaj Anielewicz" I describe something that I think might help combat Holocaust Denial, and if it's helpful, almost no one knows about it.

"Invisible Comrades" A discussion of LGBT issues in relation to Ireland.

"I Still Hate Sarah Palin" Mostly providing some extra ammo for people to kick the shit out of her.

"The Black and Green" Discusses connections between people of color in America and the republican/nationalist/human rights struggles in Ireland.

"O'Bama" Mostly a brief discussion of Obama and the North, plus a link to a video of a left-wing Irish-American republican singing a song about Obama being part Irish. (recently I have barely followed current events but since I did that post I have sort of gotten the impression that since being elected he has shifted even further from the fairly liberal candidate he was during the primaries- still probably better than McCain, especially when you consider who was waiting to replace McCain if he died or something)

"The Spirit of Robert Briscoe" A discussion of Jews and ant-semitism in relation to Ireland.

"Fuck Fascism Before It Fucks You" A discussion of the slander that the Republican Movement is fascist and why the IRA did not have the brightest idea in acceepting aid from the DEVIL during WWII. (I might offend you with this, hopefully not, that challenge only refers to accepting aid, not neutrality)

"I Owe My Allegiance To The Working-Class" A discussion of the Irish Republican Socialist Party, republican dissidents in general, and why Seamus Costello is tied with Bernadette Devlin-McAliskey as Ireland's second greatest republican/socialist.

"Catholic, Protestant, and Dissenter" Started as an explanation of my theory that only about 5% of SF (and I pretty much imply that that's true for the republican family in general) is anti-Protestant. Morphed into a more general discussion of why Ireland should be united.

"Stoop Down Lown Party" An explanation of why the Social Democratic and Labour Party of N. Ireland doesn't belong in the Socialist International.

"Progressive Unionists?!?!?!?!" A discussion of the Progressive Unionist Party.

"The Brown And The Green" a refutation of a paper that argues that Sinn Fein is fascist.

"Joint Sovreignty Assembly" An idea I had for a way to resolve the N. Ireland conflict.

"The Stars and Bars" This is about the left, (what I call) the populist far right, the Confederate Flag, Nazi skinheads, and the Civil War.

"O'bama Nuclear Assaults Your Daughters and Your Sons" covers a lot- a song kind of about Obama, the music I listen to, and two new altered songs.

"Sell-Outs?!?!?!?! Sinn Fein, the Good friday Agreement, and The World" the post which prompted this email.

"The Brown and The Green Part II" I explain an aspect of twisting certain lyrics.

"Loyalist Riots, Poverty, and Irish Labour in N. Ireland" An article I wrote in 2005 about poverty and politics in the Unionist community.

Also, I have done five posts of altered lyrics. About 1/2 of the songs are based on songs whose politics I like- the other half- no, not really, which is what makes it really interesting and creative- I'll leave it up to you to read the first post about how I "write" the lyrics, it's at http://devlin-mcaliskey.blogspot.com/2009/01/just-call-me-billy-bragg.html The rest of the lyrics are available by clicking on the "lyrics" label at the bottom of the post.

Some other topics I'll probably address soon:

1. Women in Ireland.
2. Why everyone should donate .1% of their income to the Pat Finucane Centre so they can open an offfice in every part of the North and Paul O'Connor will finally have the power he deserves.