Good Friday hassle and warning for Mordechai Vanunu

by Ron Thu Apr 16, 2009 13:48

"It would be interesting and informative to hear from Jewish people who could tell us whether, during their own childhood, they were taught to disrespect the cross or other Christian symbols or people..."

I'm Jewish and I grew up in Israel.
Never.
We weren't taught to disrespect the cross / other Christian symbols / people.
We just didn't see them much.
When I was a child, unless you grew up in a city like Jerusalem, Nazareth or Jaffa, you saw it only in trips. It wasn't part of daily life.

About the plus mark, it is true that it looks differently in Israel than abroad. I don't think it is related to avoiding the cross.

by Alan in Mayo Wed Apr 15, 2009 23:33

The opening title of this article is “Good Friday hassle and warning for Mordechai Vanunu” and the subtitle is “His conversion to Christianity does appear to have nettled Israel”. The title, subtitle and text of this piece suggest that Mordechai’s conversion to Christianity has contributed to the level of ill treatment he has received at the hands of the Israeli authorities. So the article does not focus on his whistle blowing activity but rather on the fact that his conversion has contributed to the already dreadful situation in which he is placed. Whether you like it or not Christianity in Israel is inextricably linked to a group of people who just happen to be Palestinian and Mordechai conversion to Christianity carries with it an association with those who practice this faith! Towards the end of the article there is a mention of the recent dreadful onslaught perpetrated upon the people of Gaza by the Israeli state. I would like to ask you Susan just who do you actually think lives in Gaza? In conclusion I would like to say that situation is indeed “tangled” and I do not believe that the Palestinian cause is damaged by highlighting the fact that the religious tradition chosen by Mordechai and its association with one specific group of people has impacted unfavourably upon him.

by Justin Morahan Wed Apr 15, 2009 16:41

What thin line am I walking?

by Susan Wed Apr 15, 2009 16:21

Here again we have a discussion on religious bigotry that is supposed to center around Israel's nukes and an Israeli whistleblower and lo and behold the issue of Palestinian Independence is dragged into it.
Tangling up the Issue of Palestinian rights with issues of Jewish tradition of religion is utterly damagaing to the Palestinian cause.

This conversation is whacky to say the least, but could you please try to leave the Palestinians out of it ?

by Mr Man Wed Apr 15, 2009 14:57

"Do you mean that in the early days, it was official Jewish policy to remove the cross as a symbol because of a hatred of Christians, that this policy was discontinued for a period but was reverted to recently for reasons other than "christianophobia". And if so, in your opinion, what other reason was there for this change?

No, I mean It was used by some (there is no such thing as official Jewish policy) to attempt to remove perceived christian symbolism from mathematics, at a time when persecution against jews was rife. The adoption of this policy is an attempt to infuse traditionalism into Israeli society. As I said.

"It would be interesting and informative to hear from Jewish people who could tell us whether, during their own childhood, they were taught to disrespect the cross or other Christian symbols or people."
No it wouldn't. Justin, by your tone I feel you are walking a thin line here.

by Justin Morahan Wed Apr 15, 2009 14:23

Mr Man, I don't know exactly what you mean or what your sources are for your rebuttal of Alan when you say:

"It [the plus sign] wasn't removed because of its similarity to the cross, it has been Jewish tradition for hundreds of years. The original concept may have been christianophobic (did I just make up a word?) but its permutation in today's society is purely an attempt to regain tradition."

Do you mean that in the early days, it was official Jewish policy to remove the cross as a symbol because of a hatred of Christians, that this policy was discontinued for a period but was reverted to recently for reasons other than "christianophobia". And if so, in your opinion, what other reason was there for this change? Or maybe I'm not reading you correctly.

It would be interesting and informative to hear from Jewish people who could tell us whether, during their own childhood, they were taught to disrespect the cross or other Christian symbols or people. I had never heard of this previously.

The following two sites at least appear to support Alan's viewpoint:

http://www.imja.com/Gershon2.html
http://www.jerusalemites.org/crimes/crimes_against_chri...3.htm

Mordechai Vanunu always wore a cross whenever I was with him and I think he still does. He himself believes that his conversion to Christianity was a factor in the severity of his treatment at the hands of the Israeli State or those within the State who have insisted on the anti-human conditions he is expected to suffer since his release. His Good Friday arrest, prohibition and warnings might reinforce this view

When Palestine becomes a sovereign State, when the wrongs wrought on Palestinians are righted, when the world no longer remains silent on issues of enforced enslavement of an occupied people, I hope the inhuman treatment of Mordechai Vanunu will also be acknowledged and that he will be free.

That day will only come when our hitherto subservient leaders will stand up to Israel and no longer tolerate that State's continuous perpetration of gross and outrageous injustices on their occupied neighbours while its discredited leaders shelter behind a Holocaust shield.

President Obama, are you listening?

by Alan in Mayo Tue Apr 14, 2009 15:08

Blaming Palestinians for the shrinking Christian population of the Holy Land is nothing more then an oxymoron. The native indigenous Christian population of the Holy Land are “Palestinian” so by your reasoning they are to blame for their own decline.

For many years the native indigenous Palestinian Christian population of the Holy Land (within Israel proper and the Occupied Territories) have been fleeing their homeland to escape Israeli discrimination.

For further information on the difficulties experienced by Christians and Muslims in practicing their faith within the Occupied Territories, including East Jerusalem refer to United Nations Human Rights Council report A/HRC/8/18

by Bazooka Joe Tue Apr 14, 2009 14:08

He was imprisoned because he revealed Israel had made up to 200 nuclear bombs by the 1970's at the Dimona nuclear facility. Here are some good explanatory vids based on the information he revealed.

Short Israeli TV piece showing Dimona
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbjgDERSuiI

Longer BBC Documentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGQmTyJ3SKo

by Ed Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:03

It's not because of the Jews, its because of the Palestinians: The Christian population in the West Bank and in Gaza is rapidly shrinking. Plus, Christians tend to have as much children as Europeans, i.e - 1.25 per family. Jews have more (2.5 per family) and Muslims much more.

by Mr Man Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:58

"Yes there is no doubt that Israel's relentless punishment of Mordechai Vanunu is in part because of his Christian faith."
Seems to me that its more about revealing state secrets and he is using his christianity as an arguing point, claiming discrimination.

"They told him that they would be watching him and that he should not speak to journalists or foreigners."
Probably because a condition of his release was not to talk to foreign press.

"An anti Christian bias pervades all aspects of Israeli society."
Untrue.

"Unbelievably even the plus (+) sign has been removed from Elementary School maths books in Israel because of its similarity to the symbol of the Christian cross."
It wasn't removed because of its similarity to the cross, it has been Jewish tradition for hundreds of years. The original concept may have been christianophobic (did I just make up a word?) but its permutation in todays society is purely an attempt to regain tradition. Stupid if you ask me, but lets not try to paint this as something other than what it is.

by Alan in Mayo Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:13

Yes there is no doubt that Israel's relentless punishment of Mordechai Vanunu is in part because of his Christian faith. In 1950 the native indigenous Christian population of the Holy Land was 24% this figure has declined alarmingly and today it stands at just 2%. This dramatic decline is directly attributable to discrimination alongside the effects of dispossession and occupation. An anti Christian bias pervades all aspects of Israeli society. Unbelievably even the plus (+) sign has been removed from Elementary School maths books in Israel because of its similarity to the symbol of the Christian cross.