NAMA - Words, Sentences, Theories Abound In Ireland

by old codger - pensioner Tue May 05, 2009 14:46

This country is going down the tubes.
The same crooks that caused our problems are still in power and will controll nama with or without our knowledge. The country is silent on the stealing of our national resources which could help to sustain us in this crisis.
We have to rid ourselves of political criminals before we can rebuild our nation.
When every state body is infiltrated with Fianna Fail apointed cronies we can never have democracy. The Gardai' Judiciary' most sections of the media are under their control
When a green government minster states publicly that he can do nothing to stop two ex Irish Rangers binginging Hungarian-Romanian fascist mercenaries on behalf of SHELL to assault and abuse Irish citizens it shows just how much trouble we are in.
GET RID OF THESE TRAITORS WE HAVE TAKEN ENOUGH TREACHERY. H ow can we trust them with NAMA, BANKS OR THE COUNTRY ANY MORE.

by Michelle Clarke - Social Justice and Ethics Wed May 06, 2009 00:57

The reality from the news tonight, and the figures and commentary you have given, as an indication that things are going to be very bad. We note that our personal debt has basically doubled to 11 bn. euros and this is debt to be paid on roll over.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that there must be ways of lowering the all empowering loan debt. Perhaps to attract some of the Diaspora home with their foreign experience in banking, banking in the International Money Fund, the World Bank, and major banks in New York, where bankers will have lost jobs and gained experiernce - enough to be corrective in Banks in Ireland...........

I took great heart from the programme tonight (and earlier a.m. on the Pat Kenny) hour about the Philantropist aged 78, with altruism born into every born of his body. A quiet man shy man but most of all a man of vision. The word vision always brings to mind Jonathan Swift 1600's and his words of wisdom 'Give vision to the visionless.
I am sure with the podsystems and tv advancements, you will be able to access his media show on RTE a.m. and RTE 1 at 10.10 p.m.

Old Codger, if the name is as it implies.......I reckon you have a lot of sound advice, having stated your case and mine, about how detrimental a recession is for a country like Ireland.

Michelle Clarke
Quotation chosen
Ivan Illich (b. 1926) Austrian born philsopher, theologian and author of Limits to medicine

Consuming Passions

'In a consumer society there are inevitably two kinds of slaves;

....the prisoners of addiction and
....the prisoners of envy

by $outhern €omfort - Ballygormless Credit Union Wed May 06, 2009 19:26

PMPA rescue in 1982 - that involved saving AIB as well.

So AIB was founded in 1966, all but collapsed in 1982, was gipped by clever Mr Rusnak, and then all but collapsed again in 2008.

That's the first 42 years, how many more times will we need to bale them out in the next 42?

by Fred Johnston Thu May 07, 2009 15:29

Brian Cowen may rant all he likes but there is a widespread notion our here in the real world that Fianna Fáil will drag their collective feet and hide behind vaguely-legal terminology in order to protect their banker and developer friends. Unless we see some 'perp walks' being danced on our TV screens no one will believe anything else. Fianna Fáil haven't copped on to this yet: no more pictures of bankers and developers who owe huge sums smiling behind fake tans and waving under expensive blue skies, the electorate wants the right thing done. There are people walking around out there who have dragged this country to its knees; if a starving immigrant robs some food in a supermarket here his or her name and country of origin are splashed all over the papers. Fianna Fáil has its own batch of absurdly greedy and grasping Ministers; the public want them out too, pensions and all. Fianna Fáil know they're doomed at the elections. But what a legacy - from Haughey to Bertie-I-won-it-on-the-horses to Anglo-Irish Bank! DeValera would be proud of you, lads. Not a patriot among you.

by Michelle Clarke - Social Justice and Ethics: Dignity Thu May 07, 2009 19:52

Fred

We are living in precarious times. NAMA is being thrown around from different media cycles, for the last few weeks.

Professor Honohan, Trinity College, and Professor Brian Lucey, David McWilliams, and Brian Keenan, all esteemed economists, and let us not forget, and I am not Fine Gael, Richard Bruton's apprehensions also. NAMA is a risk. Why?

Well - the scale of the worth of retrieving the toxic loans. We all realise we must chase the developers and the like......for the missing billions, that were subject to abuse from idiotic banking and government approval during the myth of the Celtic Tiger. Prominent analysis - I mean people that have been through various recessions have stated this is the worst for decades. Only for government interaction, our banks would have collapsed. Yet today on Radio 1, the people who have borrowed the least are being hounded. Why?

One man's story goes as follows - I bought a new truck for Euros 130,000. I have paid back Euros 68,000, I asked the Bank for some leeway due to the shortage of work. The Heavies!!! came and drove my truck away in front of my wife and children. Joe Duffy was lost for words on Liveline today. Various calls and similar stories came from the ordinary man and people being hounded.

Joe Higgins spoke and asked whether those developers who owe billions are receiving the same treatment. The taxpayer bailed out the banks but the Government bailed out the developers - I ask why.

It is easy to put pressure on small businesses. Bank managers can call to your home; get their secretaries to phone you several times a day, but for the Developers, the story different. Firstly, they are armed with a staff that can deflect the requests with a myriad of exucses. This has always been the case. In the time the Gallagher Group went 'belly up', so many suppliers were effected. Suppliers were lured to the hype of further development of properties on Stephen's Green, that they allowed debts to mount. 3 month agreements to pay became 4, 5, and even 6. Then the day came, and not just Gallagher's went to the Wall but so many suppliers. The ripple effect was so bad that people who had bought houses in Laurel Lodge in Castleknock found that sites had been sold to independent builders but nobody had agreed to service the sites.......so as a result people were left without serviced sites for a number of years. This was the 1980's and this meant houses sold at £39,000 were only worth approx. euros£29,000. It takes years for small business losses to be really assessed if ever.

Thread gently, I would suggest, in relation to the individual punter, the small business. Nobody knows, the person given a 'chance' could be the 'Googler' of the future (1st 1 billion brand name). Remember, we have a responsibility to future generations.......we must act in a highly responsible way, at every left of the pyramid.

Former President Robinson recognised our Irish diaspora. For those of us who emigrated, we appreciated this gesture. I believe that there are well educated, experienced, even people with a solid capital base, who would be willing to return to Ireland and take up the challenged offered by NAMA. After all, the toxic debts relate to a value on say development property......a Diaspora would have a broader vision and may be able to 'bid up the value', based on a broader spectrum of experience.

The Celtic Tiger sold a Political Culture......and it was a success given the positives the early 1990's. There was planning, the was inspiration, there was vision. Now we have to embrace change. We are moving towards the knowledge economy and the diaspora are there to be tapped......add to this the ethical, social and corporate responsibility that is evidenced emanation from Harvard, Cornell, and who knows, what the Island of Ireland can achieve.

We all are aware of denominations. North and South merchandise conflict, has arisen out of the Euro value to Stg. value, we know this of old, and we know this when we travel to the US or Tokyo...etc. Out of the blue, Tesco's were forced to match the competitive advantage and the altered prices in the Tesco shops south of the border......to stave off people going North to buyer cheaper products. The Euro removed controls from the Central Bank ....... influence over interest rates, and currency purchase rules............What IF, Ireland decided to pull out of the Euro and say align with Sterling........this is an unknown dimension, that would changeable considerably the value of toxic debts. It is a What If? but who knows?

Michelle Clarke
Quotation
Jonathan Swift 1600's
'Give vision to the visionless'

by On yer Bike - Bikers club Fri May 08, 2009 19:32

I am not an accountant , i see many figures given us in regard to re po for goods which are simply not being paid for , its all under the old tried and trusted
''Terms And Conditions Apply '' when one gets into difficulty from a financial point of view .

When the banks reposess Goods such as lorries cars etc the books will eventually balance in favour of the banks and financial institutions , in other
laymans words they have got their goods returned so therefore the paper value of the Banks etc should look more positive in regard to the plus value ,
I often wonder did the govt . make a hush hush condition to allow the Banks to grab everything they could and by doing so make the Banks plus balance
appear better than it really is , food for thought ?

by Clean Sweep of Rif Raf Sat May 09, 2009 01:53

It is no use pouring more billions into a leaky sieve like the Government is doing.

They will rob our Pension Funds blind and then won't be able to borrow to replace either it or run the country.

It is time to stop the rot now. Let the Banks go to the wall.

We are a bankrupt nation, bankrupted by those in charge of our Government, the Bankers, the Developers, and a further assortment of crooks.

Until they are cast out permanently we cannot pick up the pieces and get our economy back.

They all have to be dumped once and for all. It is useless pouring endless money down the drain when the dam has already burst all over the place.

by Michelle Clarke - Social Justice and Ethics: Dignity Sat May 09, 2009 18:56

Ireland may be bankrupt, the IMF may be called in but the Island of Ireland needs to embrace some hope and re-construct the Balance Sheet that has us gripped in panic and fear of another depression.

You meet people and ask their view about the economy and they say, I have given up on the newspapers, I don't listen to the news, I hone in on sports, I don't listen to moaners. Yes, this is denial but what value has this in our times of crises.

Never before have so many people so much access to information. The world wide web has provided this. Yet, we moan, we are losing computer jobs in Dell etc. because, as strategically planned, these jobs would follow on to cheaper labour markets, as people in Ireland accessed the Knowledge era. This happened in Ireland as people like Chuck Feeney committed themselves to Education in Ireland ........ Through Atlantic Philantropics and a veil of secrecy, people, met, talked, planned and brought the necessary Credo and funds to Ireland to educate the people so that they we benefitted from an additional tier of educated people. Remember the 1980's recession caused massive emigraton but unlike the 1950's, Ireland was credited in the UK, US, Europe for the calibre of educated people who travelled at that time. Movement, migration, can involve another kind of education and that is experience......this must be acknowledged and hence Ireland moved into the Global Financial markets. Ireland too had a dream.......the Celtic Tiger....conjures up speed but few people realise the speed is about distance in a short space of time. Ireland, embraced the Peace Process and we have achieved a dream in the Unity of the Island.......this is completed in a very short space of time. Let us not lose out on this..........!!

I lived in Zimbabwe in the 1980's/ early 1990's. President Mugabe and joint President Nkomo (Ndebele and Mashona tribes - Civi war) had considerable access to Irish history and our Independene process.......I would say, they were led more astray than we were.....we have moved on.

What did we do with our Celtic Tiger opportunities? There is an article well worth reading in the Financial Times supplement titled 'How Greed turned into Panic', an extract from a book written by Gillian Tett.

Neatly, it gets to grips with what bankers do, when they want 'more, better, best' in their Host Bank. They are driven by the need to succeed. For what motivation can be questioned but invariably they seek power, position, upper echelon society locations to live in, the holidays to take, the numbers (we all know the typologies.....what makes them and creates their mindsets, is highly questionable?

Gillian Tett's book is advertised in the Financial Times Bookshop (at a 20%) discount. The title reduces to Ordinary English just what orients the moral compass of a certain 'BREED' of people.

Fool's Gold.....'This is about how Greed Corrupted a Dream, Shattered Global Markets and Unleashed a Catastrophe'

First point, this means, it is not only Banking in Ireland that is in disgrace. It means that we folllowed a trend so let's stop the witch hunt, become decisive and utlilize the information and data we have access to for free to start us thinking (well said by the Panel on Pat Kenny last night.......we need the Nobel aspirants, we need to start thinking) we have the tools to do so.
The articles in publications like the Financial Times provide us with parameters, comprehension, knowledge and understanding to form thoughts, views, and perspectives. Witch hunts are so easy and we know the outcome......Colm Tobin spoke about these witch hunts in terms to sexual abuse in Wexford.....and he also went on to say that he desists from being part of them. I found this to be a most enlightening view.

The extract articles is on page 20 of the FT weekend.

Outline......

'A young team at investment bank J P Morgan pioneered credit deriviatives in the 1990s'. What this basically saying is that a Team at a company produced a product for the market.
'Some of these were classified as ''Super Senior'' safer than the triple AAA Rating' ....... which in effect is about Regulation.... Standard and Poors, Moody's which we hear quoted daily in the media.

The Product sold......the team earned money.....competitive advantage applied.....banks followed banks......dealers followed dealers.....and clients made serious money......

until one year...11th October, 2007, Moody's cut its credit ratings on some $32 bn of mortgage backed bonds....then panic started......credit ratings were reduced......panic set in....

$20 bn mortgage backed bonds......no longer promised yields.... it changed to losses. You see the security is the property........

I ask the question who is in the driving seat.........A house in Wellington Road with a mews site in 1963 sold for £2,500 yet before the property crash a house sold for over £5 million without a mews.......just over 30 years.

Does this make sense? Can it be redressed? Well 1980's England saw negative equity but time changed this with assets been switch to say other funds like gold, oil just to name two alternatives.

I think we need to read ....... and think and not panic......there must be a way out........

I met an interesting artist today.....and yes we talk aesthetics but his suggestion of caring and sharing ...... spurns hope in me. After all, Health is Wealth.......

Michelle Clarke

by Michelle Clarke - Social Justice and Ethics: Dignity Thu May 14, 2009 22:56

Do we nationalise the Banks? Do we establish NAMA? When you consider the millions paid for the Tribunals of Enquiries, to the legal staff -

What costs can we envisage for NAMA and what predictable outcomes? We know from the Tribunals that placing no boundaries, accelerates time scale and costs. This surely is a luxury we cannot afford.

We must acknowledge those who took on board the financial services system......those people like the investigative journalists, and in particular Simon Carswell, senators, and former excecutives of AIB like Mr. Soden, who identified the maladministration that is necessary for a system of checks and balances to work.

The Irish Stock Exchange appears toothless in this affair. It fined AIB on two occasions for a breach of the Stock Exchange rules but apart from this, they appear to be unaware or just negligent of the duties imposed on the Stock Exchange. Whatever happened to the Stockbroker gentleman ...... whom, one dealt with in a most professional way in days of yore....the motto 'My Word is my Bond' has disappeared with the onset of a globalisation culture and a loss of ethical practices. Then we have the Competition Authority, again toothless, sleepy, docile or just consumed by fear to address a Blue Chip monolith of power. The Central Bank, I recall them as efficient when I used to purchase US$ to pay for oil supplies. This was back in the 1980's but then interest rates and exchange rates were the mechanism the Central Bank used to control the Punt as it was.

Prime Time was excellent tonight. The ordinary person is left under no illusions about what happened. The over-investment by the Banks in commercial and other property. Mr. Soden, former CE made a sensible point. We as yet do not know whether the banks will be nationalised or NAMA/NTMA will be vehicles used, but he suggested, it is important to establish values on properties. We need to price the one square foot at a VALUE....Once this is done, you cost it. This will vary from City to City but it is an important benchmark.

It has also been suggested that a member from the European Central Bank ought to be assigned to NAMA......this is common sense, particularly when you consider the over reliance on property........a person from say the IMF, World Bank, ECB would bring considerable experience and knowledge to say NAMA/NTMA.

The irony is as the Irish Revenue received funds from the fraudulent activities of tax evaders into the 1990's/90's into the coffers that in turn propted up the Balance Sheets to a positive stance, realistically the coffers were being stripped going forward, and now the irony is complete with the present financial scandals. Tax havens again have facilitated illegal transactions. Ireland needs to partner with Germany, France, the UK, who seek to restrict practices of investment in offshore accounts. Thery are also asking tax haven countries to release data on people who hold accounts.

Michelle Clarke
Quotation
Gandhi......Tuning in
'The only tyrant I accept in this world is the still voice within'

I believe that if this is so, bankers and others who have foresaken a generation of people, ought to return bonuses, pensions in excess of what is acceptable to a fund........'

by Kevin T. Walsh - Social Justice and Ethics: Dignity Fri May 15, 2009 11:57

Michelle

This morning, Shane Ross was speaking on Pat Kenny show, agreed with the new proposed Boss of NAMA in relation to the risks and the overall dilemma that surrounds the controversial issue.

Yesterday, Michael Somers told an Oireachtas Committee that NAMA is not set up properly and could lead to a legal bonanza for lawyers.

Mr. Somers went on to say, putting valuations on the 'Bad Loans' is a high risk taking equation.

People are putting amounts of 90 bn. euros on toxic debt but this is not predictable because asset values are determined by market forces......the fact is we do not know.

Mr. Somers said the valuation of multi billion euro property loans by the new Agency will be a tedious and long process.

He went on to tell the Public Accounts Committee that we find ourselves in a completely new territory and possibly new legal wrangles.....to be faced along the way.

Richard Bruton, Fine Gael, stated - he is totally against the NAMA proposals on the grounds that NAMA is a dangerous bail out system for Bank investors and poses huge risks to the Irish taxpayer. NAMA, Bruton went on to say, has too many weaknesses to inspire confidence.

Although immediate nationalisation would avoid some of the problems of NAMA, it still represents a high risk/cost route for taxpayers. This ought to be a main consideration for any Government i.e. (the taxpayer).

What concerns me about this is.....that the new National Assets Management Agency hasn't even been legally set up yet and already the warning lights are flashing and the sirens are whaling......

At the moment it appears that NAMA's main objective is clean up the balances of the banks by taking over the bad/toxic loans particularly the billions lent to property speculators but one has to ask at what risk to the Irish taxpayer and is the Government leading into a legal mine field.