Eat Anjem Choudary Hot Worm Stew: Why The Irish Public Has To Swallow The Hard Truth About War
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Saturday November 12, 2005 21:46
by periodical progress towards something or other happening - completely self-autonomous non-organisational anti-hierarchical structure of one
that little last line of dirt that you can never get up onto the dustpan (decreases asymptotically)
666
Neutrality Schmeutrality: Islamic Radical Tells It Like It Is. Deal With It.
The subject of this opinion piece submitted to Indymedia Ireland is Anjem Choudary (also known as Omar Bakri Muhammad), a Muslim cleric who was born in Syria, participated in the 1982 revolution against the Syrian Ba'athist regime and was later given political asylum in the UK. He spoke at a debate in Trinity College on Thursday night. Choudary is well known for his extremist Islamic views and was leader of Al-Muhajiroun, an organisation whose eventual goal was to prepare the way for a global Islamic theocracy.
Extract:
Choudary's remarks pointed out something in blunt terms which anti war campaigners have been saying since 2001, when it became common knowledge that Shannon was being used as a refuelling base for US warplanes. He said that "if you allow Ireland to be used to refuel US warplanes which are going on bombing raids, what do you expect the reaction of the Muslim world to be? This is not neutrality. It is better for the Muslim world to tell you this reality, so we can change this situation, and to make sure what is taking place in other countries will not happen here in Ireland." His remarks were in the context of his argument that Ireland is open to attack by terrorist groups, because of its support for the Bush administration's war on terror.
Complete Text of Article as Submitted to Indymedia Ireland:
Islamic radical tells it like it is. Deal with it.
So predictably the remarks made by Anjem Choudary during a debate last night in Trinity College Dublin, hosted by the Philosophical Society ("The Phil", dont you know) have sparked off something of a minor outrage among politicians and sections of our reactionary media. He was speaking along with several other prominent Muslim figures (see the event posted in the calendar here: http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=72909) on the motion that "this house believes 9/11 was a legitimate form of resistance of American pressure to the Islamic world."
The Phil, along with its opposite number in UCD, the L&H, enjoys courting controversial figures and putting on debates to provoke and stir shit up, outwardly for lofty ideals, but mostly because they're a pack of college 'wags' and this is just another notch in their belt to make it seem like they're "loike, so crazy, man". If you've ever had the misfortune to attend one of these debates, the level of intellectual rigour practised by the 'regulars' hovers somewhere in the vague childish student spectrum of society in-jokes, cheap witticisms of sparse wit, and smutty double entendres to compensate for the fact that following the free drink reception afterwards, they'll all be far too shitfaced to have sex.
Choudary's remarks pointed out something in blunt terms which anti war campaigners have been saying since 2001, when it became common knowledge that Shannon was being used as a refuelling base for US warplanes. He said that "if you allow Ireland to be used to refuel US warplanes which are going on bombing raids, what do you expect the reaction of the Muslim world to be? This is not neutrality. It is better for the Muslim world to tell you this reality, so we can change this situation, and to make sure what is taking place in other countries will not happen here in Ireland." His remarks were in the context of his argument that Ireland is open to attack by terrorist groups, because of its support for the Bush administration's war on terror.
What is so unpalatable about those remarks? Is it because the truth hurts? 100,000 people showed up on the streets of Dublin nearly 3 years ago to protest against the looming war on Iraq - and to call for the end of Shannon as a refuelling base. Other towns and cities in Ireland (and beyond, all around the world) also staged large antiwar marches, the like of which have not been seen since. Yet the war began anyway. And Shannon is still being used as a refuelling base. And for all the guff spouted by certain groups about a new movement emerging at the time of the F15 marches, those people never, ever came back out onto the streets again or got involved in antiwar activities.
So presumably there are a large body of people out there who read the papers every day, listen to the radio, or watch TV - who were on those marches or supported them at the time. RTE and O'Reilly's empire are not Indymedia; but occasionally there are stories about Shannon, the number of troops passing through there, the Catholic Worker trial, the CIA torture plane landing, statements from TDs about neutrality, etc. Those people know that this country is being used as an instrument of war. Is there a feeling of guilt out there? That people know, deep down in their hearts and minds, that neutrality has been breached but they cant be bothered doing anything about it? Perhaps not, but this might explain the knee-jerk reaction to Choudary's remarks.
The bottom line is: we have become involved in a war. Not just any war: George Bush's global war on terror. A vague, endless, structureless war that encompasses a fight against a strategy rather than your standard enemy of a state or faction. By allowing his planes and troops to stop here, we are on his side. There are other people out there, also religious fundamentalists who see their struggle as an eternal battle between good and evil. They are equally determined to fight. Its obvious to anyone who thinks for more than half a second that neither side particularly values human life. We are placing a knife into the hand of one side of a row that has essentially nothing to do with us. We are an accessory to the US war machine, and the sooner we openly admit that to ourselves then we can begin to face the fact that we are open to retaliation from the other side for our actions.
For too long we've skated on the thin ice of our reputation as being neutral or even somewhat vaguely revolutionary in far off places because of the "northern struggle". Ken Bigley and Margaret Hassan tried to negotiate their lives on the standing of the state in the Muslim world, and unfortunately this failed them. Remarks at the time about Shannon/Ireland being part of the UK/US alliance were played down by politicians, and dismissed as dangerous for putting the lives of hostages at further risk. Rory Carroll's abduction ended happily, but how long can we trade on the flimsy notion of not being involved in the "coalition of the willing"? Choudary's statements havent opened a can of worms, he's merely scooped the worms out and made them into a very bitter stew that we have to collectively swallow.
Do we want war on our doorstep? Imagine your rural village or town flattened by a MOAB or Daisy Cutter. Every single person you know is dead or injured. Or perhaps you wake up in the middle of the night and your skin is burning, you cant breathe, and your last memory is the cries of your family - just like the use of chemical weapons on Fallujah. But it seems that Westerners cannot relate to deaths in the Middle East or identify fully with people who live in different conditions to their own. So lets put it in terms we understand - the people of London and Madrid have seen this with their own eyes. You're on a crowded DART with your friends, enjoying the trip into town to get some food and go to the cinema - when suddenly there's a hot, sickly flash of light and a noise that splits your ears open. Each of your nerves scream with the intense heat and pain. You eventually open your eyes and there are pieces of bodies everywhere. Arms, legs, heads, fingers, genitals - all fused together in a filthy mesh of blood, flesh, metal and tears. Old and young are turned inside out, destroyed in seconds. All around you are the dead and dying, praying, crying, calling for help that may not arrive in time.
This is what war means. We either end our participation in war and make a strong, loud, defiant affirmation of peaceful resolution and call for the destruction of all arms - or we continue to support war and become victims of it ourselves. We either stop the CIA torture plane landing at Shannon - or we may have to endure the torture of losing people we love and care for. We either make our neutrality a reality instead of a half-baked concept - or we accept that we are just as much a target as any of the other participants in this conflict. War is not some abstract geopolitical game, its a brutal reality that kills people just like you and me. It has taken a Muslim fundamentalist to stir up debate, but we have been in this situation before. Maybe it will take an attack on innocent people on our own soil before we digest the truth.
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Comments (66 of 66)
Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66And do you think "we" will digest the truth then? Who's this "we" you're talking about anyway - are you trying to say that the people who marched on F15 now support the massacre in Falluja?
The link below is a documentry about the use of a form of napalm in Falluja, worth watching but not if you have a soft stomach.
So we let a radical medival lunatic spout his hatred and threaten this state and its citizens from a platform we provided.And now as perusual an the apologists crawl worm and maggotlike out to mule that it is all somone elses fault.
this country and people on this board disgust me.
- its a newswire. People should remember that, and when they respond to opinion/analysis pieces, it would help if they expanded their comments and ideas beyond two line "you are sick" responses. Makes for more intelligent reading and debate.
Turning Indymedia into a board/chat/BBS turns it to shit.
RTE only reports Gardai interest in one of 5 speakers at meeting.
A description of the meeting from boards by fg
Oh, I know why they're doing it alright. I just think it's both unfair and bordering on irresponsible for them to only portray Muslims in this light. From reading the articles you could be lead to think that it was a one sided hate fest from the Al Mujaharoun people.
It was ironic actually, a Newstalk presenter was there interviewing the speakers. She devoted more time to the Al Mujahoroun people (and it was actually her that brought up the "is Ireland a legitimate target" question), and then turned around to Musleh Faradhi and asked if his voice (i.e. "moderate" Islam or whatever term you want) wasn't being heard, generally speaking that is. I felt like standing up and pointing out the obvious - if you only let the extremists talk how can any other voice be heard!
Mohamed Ali who was another speaking against the motion and Qadri put forward two of the best arguments against terrorism (from an Islamic perspective and just in general) that I've heard. It was also them who received the longest and loudest applause.
Irish government is considering measure to stop Radical Muslim clerics from speaking publically here.
Perhaps the should put the Phil over their knee and give them the spanking those children deserve.
Willie O Dea talks about humanitiarian use of Shannon Airport.
"Sir Ian Blair said Dublin as at as much risk as other large cities"
A breaking report in the Irish Independent says:
"16:57 Friday November 11th 2005
The Shannon stopover is to be phased out by April 2008, it was revealed today.
The Minister for Transport signed an agreement with his US counterpart in New York this afternoon.
The number of flights forced to land in Shannon will be reduced to one in four by November next year.
Cargo flights will not have stop at all from that date."
Just amazes me that the first protests against Al Qa'ada and terrorism in general have been in Muslim nations, i.e., Iraq and Jordan; not Ireland certainly.
I never hear from you 'gutless wonders' any criticism of Islamo-fascists murdering innocent Muslim men, women, and children along with others all for an as yet undeclared purpose; although we all know it's to take away your rights to freedom and your own faith. You are willing to risk losing that or letting others do the fighting for you to save your own skins and stand on the sidelines feeling all self righteous in your cosy cyber world. You seem sympathetic with those who espouse dying for Allah but unwilling to go along for the ride themselves. History will prove you as feckless and counter productive; but, by then, you will have crawled back into your spider holes.
nothing to do with military flights
I knew that, but my mind was running on thinking about one of the arguments that "realists" had for allowing the US abuse of Shannon with their military equipment: namely that if we wished to continue soaking the US carriers with mandatory stopovers at Shannon then we had to reciprocate by being compliant and act as a non-neutral facilitator of US aggression against Iraq.
I wonder will there be lots of jobs lost at Shannon after all is said and done or will that turn out to have been another false assertion. Imagine if we ended up without either our souls /or/ the thirty pieces of silver?
QUOTE: "I never hear from you 'gutless wonders' any criticism of Islamo-fascists murdering innocent Muslim men, women, and children"
I completely criticise and condemn the 9/11, 7/7, Bali, Madrid and any other bombings that target civilians. I completely criticise and condemn reactionary, homophobic, anti-feminist theologues and any militaristic war-mongering jingoists shoring up their semi-elected positions with propaganda, lies and secret police.
So, that means that Bush, Saddam Hussein, Pat Robertson, Osama bin Laden, the neocons and the Taliban are all judged as equally repulsive and guilty. In fact Bush, because of his greater resources and the greater number of civilians he has murdered is more repulsive and worthy of condemnation. (I have no doubt that ObL given Bush's resources would be just as bad).
I don't see YOU straining to condemn anyone that indulges in the undemocratic, uncivilised acts that you witter on about. Perhaps if you take a peek over your gut to the monitor and managed to get your hands around it to the keyboard you'll notice that the much trumpeted Afghan democracy is now oppressing women and children and men even more than before. Good old march of democracy.
'Risible perfectly describes your lumping Bush, who has given 50 million people a chance for democracy, with Usama bin Laden. Pretty pathetic how little you know about the history of building democracies. What Afghanistan and Iraq have accomplished in the past two years with their citizens coming out to vote in numbers greater than in your country or mine, all under the threat of having their throats cut, is unprecedented. 'D. Ride' would be a more appropriate nom de plume to hide behind.
• Willis, could you please explain why Bush said about Osama Bin Forgotten in 2002:
''Well, as I say, we haven't heard much from him.
And I wouldn't necessarily say he's at the center
of any command structure. And, again, I don't
know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said.
I truly am not that concerned about him. I know
he is on the run. I was concerned about him,
when he had taken over a country. I was concerned
about the fact that he was basically running
Afghanistan and calling the shots for the Taliban.
But once we set out the policy and started executing
the plan, he became -- we shoved him out more
and more on the margins. He has no place to train
his al Qaeda killers anymore.''
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
• Partial Video...
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/notconcerned.wmv
• And then Bush lied about what he said in the Kerry/Bush debates in 2004:
"I just don't think I ever said I'm not worried about Osama bin Laden.
It's kind of one of those exagerations"
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/13/debate.transcript/
• Willis, please square that circle with tonight's news.....
''The co-ordinated suicide bombings that killed dozens of
people in three hotels in Jordan on Wednesday were
carried out by an Iraqi married couple and two other Iraqi
men, according to a statement from al-Qaeda in Iraq today.''''
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-1868179,00.html
Willis, Bush has turned Iraq into massive breeding ground for Al Q - bigger than ol' Osama could have ever imagined back in his caves.
Jordan is now paying price for supporting Bush's war.
What other US allies are next?
The US has done everything in its power to stop democracies that it doesn't like. I refer you to the link below which details the invasion of sovereign countries many of which were democracies. The reign of terror and torture of civilians in Latin America, Africa and Asia directly by the USA through the agency of the CIA and the US armed forces places the USA as second to no other human rights abuser in the world except perhaps Hitler's Reich and Stalin's USSR.
To the civilised world the USA looks like nothing but another despotic human rights abuser. The nausea we feel contemplating the barbarity of the 9-11 attacks swims to the surface again as we consider the over 500,000 children murdered in the UN run sanctions up to the invasion of Iraq or the torture of the prisoners at Abu Ghraib, or the vicious classist policies exposed in New Orleans or in the treatment of Abner Louima by the cops in NY, or the approximatley 2 million people held in your prison gulags.
Your country sucks and only a blind fool would attempt to defend its notorious actions and at the same time express moral outrage against other people's barbarities.
You don't get to complain about torture and murder of civilians when it's been what your government has been up to for almost 50 years.
In a week when the trial of the Ploughshares collapsed after disclosure of Judical connections to Bush, and a muslim cleric tells us we are "legitimate targets", Irish participation in the U.S war on terror campaign has never had so much media coverage.
Listening to Hookie on 106 on Friday evening i was surprised to hear the Shannon action being discussed without anyone to put the activists side. Claims that the actions of anti war activists have made us a target are at best disingenuous and at worst a deliberate attempt by a discredited government to turn popular support away from the ploughshares in the hope of being able to get a jury to convict next July, at trial number three.
In military terms Ireland is a legitimate target because it is a logistics base for U.S forces(on the same rationale used by P.I.R.A when targeting british bases in germany) Shannon Airport may as well be U.S.A.F base Shannon, and that is the issue. The people who made the decision to allow our territory to be used in an illegal war bear the responsibility.They have entered into a military alliance for the purpose of prosecuting a war which has no basis in law. This in itself may possibly be an offence in international law, i don't know. so we are actually, in military terms a legitimate target. Bertie has made it so, with his P.D mates. Good for business, industry! So not only are we in, but were in because were making on the deal, blood money.
The decision to remove the defence of justifiable cause to the ploughshares is similar to say the following example: I am walking along and suddently attack a car with a hammer in order to disable it,The car contains a spare tyre for another car which had got a puncture, the second car contains a 200lb bomb on it's way , lets say, to Omagh. I know this, i complain to the Gardai and they take no action, so I take things in to my own hands and use an ax/hammer etc to break the windscreen and flatten the tyres. I am arrested and charged with criminal damage to the car. I explain my case but the judge says, sorry, but you cant actually prove this 200lb bomb would have definately injured someone. Get the idea?
That there is any doubt in the most ill informed mind, that war crimes have and are being committed in Iraq is beyond belief. The testimony of Jimmy Massey at Trinity and the evidence of video footage from Fallujah clearly show there are war crimes being committed. Destroying planes at Shannon is not a crime it is a civic responsibility of every citizen of this state. It is not necessary to rely on old testament propechies to believe this, merely to believe that it is a legitimate act in order to uphold international law and to prevent war crimes being committed.
It is not necessary that we wait until next July to decide the issue. The facts are incontravertable, the war is illegal,war crimes are being committed and our government know that. They are knowingly participating, well informed, and by doing so are placing the safety of the citizens of this state in dangerand they themselves are commiting war crimes by assisting war criminals. The fact needs to be brought home to themof the opposition of the citizens of Ireland to Irish involvement in any way in this horrific and criminal war on the innocent people of Iraq. Let the actual leaders of the anti war movement in Ireland, those prepared to risk imprisonment in order to uphold international law, the Ploughshares, call a mass(they can have a mass too if they want!) support rally in Dublin.It is time RBB and his SWP stepped aside, this is too important for party politics and personal aggrandisment, there are children being massacred on a daily basis in Iraq and Ireland is helping to do it. If RBB were what he claims to be he would see that in terms of benefiting his political organisation, in terms of public perception, it would show a degree of maturity which has thus far been missing. It is also time that those who have any influence with the failed I.A.W.M, used it to inform them of the reality and seriousness of the situation.It is also time every citizen(and non citizen) of this state took notice and do what they can to let the government know their feelings. Email them, write to them,visit their clinics,protest at the Dail, whatever,Jam the switch. Let them know.Now.
Evil prevails when good men do nothing,so I heard!
Redjade asked 'what other U.S. allies are next'. Obviously you're pretty clueless about the history of Usama bin Laden. He was kicked out of Saudi Arabia; then the Saudis told Uganda to kick him out of their country. Then when Kuwait was invaded by Saddam Hussein, Usama offered to help with his little army only to be snubbed by the Saudis who elected to go with the foreign infidels - the Saudis made their own enemy then. If you knew more about what really happened, you wouldn't be making such serious gaffs. Usama plans to eliminate whom he considers corrupt in the Arab Muslim countries. It has nothing to do with allies; they were going to get hit and have been getting hit for some time. Saudi Arabia is still our ally, too, after countless terrorist attacks. The Paris metro bombings, terrorist attacks in Germany and Russia - all three of these countries battled the United States in going into Iraq and are having troubles with terrorism. Get a reality check Redjade!
R. Isible can find a plethora of links to sites just a reckless and mendacious as himself; so big deal. All of you can; it doesn't make an impression on me. I can't address anything Risible writes any longer as it's just vitriolic rhetoric based on blinded resentment and hate for the United States. All I can say is it must be nice being born in country which isn't a earth shaker and can't be in the position for much criticism.
Some of you are forgetting that the alliances of today are based on the sacrifices of yesterday - literally - Armistice Day, did anyone of ye give a thought to those heroes who fought for the freedom of the world? The United States has come to the aid of Europe three times counting Kosovo. Crimes were committed by both the allies and the axis; but in those days the Press was censored to protect the troops and allow them to do their jobs. You are now permitted to think you know so much.
Most people are in denial that Islamofascists want a Caliphate in Europe and the elimination of all other faiths in the world; that there is a war going on right now. You want to understand your enemy and pacify it the way Neville Chamberlain did - 'Peace in our time'. Europe sacrificed Czechoslovakia, Austria, and Poland like lambs; just as you would.
In the film 'High Noon' the sheriff gets no support from the cowering citizens because they are willing to make 'acceptable' sacrifices to pacify the outlaws and criticise the sheriff for going out to face the enemy. He is alone; because there really isn't much courage in the world; just plenty of self righteous mob mentality like your own. Your cowardice is emboldened by your support. As I wrote, history will show you for what you are. I pity you.
Namely that the USA commits and has committed human rights abuses, war crimes and atrocities which place them firmly in the same camp as the scum of Al Qaeda.
If nothing else you post is instructive as an illustration of the mindset which allowed so many Germans to support the Reich. It's a pity that this example comes at the expense of the children that have had their heads and arms ripped off.
The fact that you continue to deny the atrocity and make general and grandiose claims about the march of history makes it hard for me to choose whether or not I find you or the Islamic extremists more disgusting.
"Just amazes me that the first protests against Al Qa'ada and terrorism in general have been in Muslim nations, i.e., Iraq and Jordan; not Ireland certainly."
What's the point of protesting against Al Qaeda if it won't have any real effect? The reality is that it's the US military (not Al Qaeda) who are currently using airport facilities in this country. If Al Qaeda or another armed force (whether it state on non-state force) was being permitted to use Shannon to prosecute attacks against civilians, the outrage would be the same. There's little point in protesting against military aggression - and there are many of examples of violence and oppression throughout the world - that's not being facilitated by the government of Ireland. The reality is that we can only influence - and have a responsibility to - that which is in our power to do so.
Anthony, the point of protesting against Al Qa'ada would be to show the world the Irish aren't just greedy ego-centrists who have gotten rich from breaking E.U. law by enticing American companies with illegal tax incentives. Your country just got slammed by the E.U. for wanting to give a grant to Johnson & Johnson in Cork. You want American business but you don't want Shannon used as a stopover for American military aircraft. The U.S. government has made a legal agreement with your democratically elected government. Also, several areas in Ireland are used in the production of military components for the United States. It has become even more difficult for Ireland to claim neutrality as several areas in Ireland are used in the production of military components for the United States. Action From Ireland has reported extensively on the Irish involvement in the international arms trade. AFRI has listed more than a dozen companies located in Ireland that produce goods for arms manufacturers. Most of the companies produce “dual-use” technology, which they sell to arms manufacturers, but some of these companies produce “military goods,” which have no purpose other than to be used as part of weapons systems. More recently, Raytheon, the third largest arms manufacturer in the U.S., maker of the Tomahawk and Patriot missile, announced that it is setting up a plant in County Derry. The Derry plant is said to be making hi-tech software, but it has recently been given an 800 million pound grant by the British Ministry of Defence. So, you see, Ireland is up to its neck and your ignorance is no excuse.
I understand your fears of being involved by association with a country which is just asking for it and getting it itself into deep ca-ca. You probably aren't all feckless ego-centrists and just don't want to be involved and put your loved ones at risk. That's why I hold no animosity towards you and your little web-site as I know ye don't speak for all Irish men and women. I will never forget the 100,000 Irish volunteers who fought in WWII when Ireland was even then a neutral country.
God bless Ireland!
Kurdistan was and is an exceptional region, a land without state it straddles three sovreign territories, and the same coalition of political parties which were allowed by the US and UK to set up an autonomous zone after the March 2003 invasion, are listed as terrorists in Turkey. More Turkish citizens have died in Kurd related terrorism since the invasion of Iraq in 2003 than during the previous 10 years.
Western Tourists killed in Turkey by Kurdish terrorists have included an Irish citizen, a teenager on her holidays to celebrate her high school exam results.
If the US and UK had argued to the world the creation and liberation of Kurdistan at UN through the legitimate and legal international institutions of arbitration, then that situation would not have occured where "free kurdistan" is led by "advertising prosperity politicians" who in Iraq are "democrats" and in Turkey are "terrorists".
Which are they then Willis?
terrorists or democrats?
Do you think you are telling us something we don't know.
It is not us who put are faith in fly by night US companies. We know of the Raython and they killers codes, thanks to local activists we didn't need to C&p from Zmag.
We won't be not going to duped into fighting for lie of the "defence small nations" and die for the Imperial spheres of Influence.
The PKK just bombed a bus in Antalya this September - I was there at the time. They are killing more than 'an Irish citizen .... a teenager'
I'm afraid Turkey had a real problem with the PKK until they lined up their army along the Syrian border after futile attempts at trying to get Syria to stop harbouring the PKK terrorists. Threats worked against Syria then and the US should do the same right now.
You can cite many 'woulda coulda' instances of what may have happened if the big players in the world had done this or that. Just remember your place. Remember that the more involved one is the more mistakes one is apt to make. No one is perfect except the self righteous.
But that doesn't give this cleric the right to give remarks that are likely to incite hatred against the Irish people. If that was Australia or New Zealand, he would not be allowed to give a speech like that in a public building. I did read yesterday that the U.S military stopover at Shannon will be a thing of the past by 2008.
thats correct. Bush, the self righteous world "peacemaker".
he's perfect, perfectly wrong.
I thought the stopover wasn't just for US military but for civilian as well. Anyway, by 2008, The US should be well out of Iraq and fighting someplace else - tee hee.
Did anyone ever stop to ask whether or not it was imperative the US stopover in Shannon? Because it isn't; we have bases in the U.K. It's your greedy government which wants us using the facility.
Willis,
Is this one of those 'mistakes'?
Just like arming Saddam? and Osama Bin Forgotten? And Noriega, and those Iraqi Republican Guard 'Junior Officers' that have been invited back to do their dirty work? and... oh the list goes on and on....
Thoughts?
--
Cat and mouse game over Iran
United Press Int'l
Jan. 26 2005
''The use of the MEK for U.S.-intelligence-gathering missions strikes some former U.S. intelligence officials as bizarre. The State Department's annual publication, "Patterns of Global Terrorism," lists them as a terrorist organization.
According to the State Department report, the MEK were allies with Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein in fighting Iran and, in addition, "assisted Saddam in "suppressing opposition within Iraq, and performed internal security for the Iraqi regime."''
http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20050126-085709-3876r.htm
The Iran War Buildup
by Michael Klare
July 22, 2005 by The Nation
''There are also indications that the CIA and SOF officials have met with Iranian opposition forces--in particular, the Mujaheddin-e Khalq (MEK)--to discuss their possible involvement in commando raids inside Iran or a full-scale proxy war. In one such report, Newsweek disclosed in February that the Bush Administration "is seeking to cull useful MEK members as operatives for use against Tehran." (Although the MEK is listed on the State Department's roster of terrorist groups, its forces are "gently treated" by the American troops guarding their compound in eastern Iraq, Newsweek revealed.)''
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0722-20.htm
Mojahedin-e-Khalq (MEK)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujaheddin_e_Khalq
• More info posted on indymedia.ie in the past:
US/K Losing Iraq War - Iran Emerges as Winner
http://indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=71275
Nobody is saying that Bush is right. I completly agree that his policies are wrong.
But please don't confuse this with my point I'm making that extremist Islamic clerics do not have a right to incite hatred against people by their speeches. Clearly, Mr Chorduary's comment was outrageous when he said Ireland "could become a legitimate target". That was a threatening remark and clearly it was intent on inciting hatred against the Irish people.
We have to distinguish carefully between the war/occupation in Iraq/Palestine and Islamic extremists who are only using these issues to wage attacks on the west on the basis of religion.
Yes, I'm completly against the Israeli occupation of Palestine, as well as the U.S occupation of Iraq, as well as the British occupation of Northern Ireland, but I am also against the incitement of hatred by speeches that Islamic clerics give.
This gentleman sure knows how to cut to the chase. Shame on the rest of ye for not seeing what is clearly under your noses.
You want to think local; then take heed to the real threat to Ireland.
John what did you think of what the other people said at that debate.
I am sick of all this.I am against the US,and I'm against Islamic Extremists,why are we made feel like by rejecting one we are supporting the other?They are both equally bad right wing killing machines,fuck them.Let them find a nice big open field somewhere where the Marines and Al Quedas can blow the shit out of each other,leaving the peaceful people of the world alone.Drop no bombs on the innocent in Iraq,and do not kill the innocent of NYC,Madrid etc.
Anti War is Anti Violence,not Anti US or pro terrorist.The religous extremists can join Bush.In Hell.
This is an excerpt from an article I read in today's San Francisco Chronicle:
'The Europeans have not accidentally failed to assimilate its immigrants, but, in fact, agreed with the Arab League to prevent the compulsion of Muslim immigrants to adapt to the customs of host countries. Indeed, Europeans agreed to adapt school curricula to the culture of the immigrant communities.
In an interfaith meeting in Turkey, a respected Muslim cleric said: "Thanks to your democratic laws, we will invade you. Thanks to our Islamic laws, we will conquer you."
What Islamic armies have not been able to do with force in more than 1,000 years is now being achieved in less than a century through liberal European immigration policies and the very high birth rates of unassimilated Muslims. Europeans, and Americans, must learn and correct our course.'
QUOTE: "the point of protesting against Al Qa'ada would be to show the world the Irish aren't just greedy ego-centrists who have gotten rich from breaking E.U. law by enticing American companies with illegal tax incentives."
And how on earth does protesting against a terrorist group that has no presence in Ireland do that? It sounds like a completely ineffective measure. In other headlines: Ireland protests against Death and Disease, An Taoiseach makes Strongly Worded Statement against Tibetan Yak abuse, Irish Opposition concerned about Fish Violence.
QUOTE: "The U.S. government has made a legal agreement with your democratically elected government"
Oh yes? Do please point us to the treaty document signed by the government of Ireland with the US allowing the US to use Ireland for military purposes.
The murderers and torturers on one side of this immoral war are in our country now. The only thing Ireland is showing to the world at the moment is a craven, supine acceptance of US immorality. We can stop them here and we should. All decent, sane people are against the terrorism of Al Qaida and the terrorism of the USA. We can do a small bit to stop the latter and any business that is fragile enough to be affected by that probably wasn't going to stay here anyway.
Choudary has pointed out that from the perspective of participants in this war, if we're not acting neutrally then they're not going to feel well-disposed towards us. We're supposed to be neutral and the government is stupidly endangering our reputation as a safe, neutral, peaceful country.
I would imagine that one of the possible effects of this will be the reduction of US tourism (which remains one of the most important parts of our economy) due to fears of attack. The pathetic murder dollars dribbling in from Shannon (30 million!) are not going to offset that.
In conclusion, only a deranged neo-con with no connection to the reality of the Irish economy and no vested interest in it would advocate anything so hair-brained as being seen to be so obviously associated with the US interests when the majority current in the EU (which has delivered far more to Ireland than the USA) is opposed to the US direction.
I own shares in:
• Paddy Power
• Jurys Doyle Hotels Group
• Greencore
• Irish Life & Permanent
• Iona Tech
and I've made a lot of money. God bless Ireland!
• Grafton Group ...... tee hee
I used to own income property; but, I could no longer put up with Irish male tenants. I blame their mothers for making them such filthy pigs. I couldn't stand to see an executive luxury apartment get trashed and I got tired of chasing these little boys around for rent.
The reason there are more, and more visible, protests in Ireland against the invasion and occupation of Iraq than there are against al Qaida is that the Irish state is involved in the former, not the latter. Surely there is a greater moral obligation to protest against something which you are complicit in than something over which you have no influence or say.
There is - in theory at least - a chance that 100,000 people demonstrating in a democracy against the war might discourage the government they elected from participating in the war (I know, I know, chance would be a fine thing...) But there is no chance at all that a similar protest on the streets of Dublin would change al Qaida's tactics. Bin Laden et al are not answerable to the Irish people.
In WWII there was another form of fascism lead by a murderer who massacred: homosexuals, Catholics, Jehovah's Witness', the retarded, and the Jews. He was bent on taking over Europe and maybe the world. He was hoping to make a nuclear bomb. Europe waited till it was too late leaving only Britain, Australia, Canada, and the United States to beat him. All during this time, one country didn't have an opinion on the murder of these groups of people nor did it have an opinion about the take-over of Europe because it was neutral and didn't need to get involved.
Today, no Continental European over the age of 45 has any respect for Switzerland. And come to think of it, none care much for Ireland either.
I notice most of you don't use your real names; clearly you're not aware of IP addresses. Well, the reason many of you don't want to openly criticise Al Qa'ada is you don't want some Muslim in the streets to see you. Same reason the Fourth Estate won't criticise them. It's easy to keep kicking Bush around. It's called 'scapegoatism' and doesn't take a whole lot of imagination or integrity to take part in the world's favourite sport at the moment e.g., hating America.
One of these days you'll start loving us again. People in general are fickle. I'll never forget the reporter, in a crowd of Chinese youths protesting the American mistaken bombing of the Chinese Embassy in the erstwhile Yugoslavia, who witnessed an old lady who said to one of the young protesters 'you look ridiculous shouting Death to America while wearing Nike shoes, Levis jeans, and sipping on a CocaCola.'
Ya know I was walking down the street just the other day and I recognised someone by their IP Address, I wanted to beat them up - but, I thought to myself, 'No, Why should I beat him up when he has provided well to the Irish Economy by investing in Paddy Power.'
Without Willis and the CIA, Ireland would still be living like the Celts.
Thank you Willis.
Your personal claims about ownership of penny stocks might impress your grandmother, but they mean nothing as we have no means of verifying them or anything else about you, so as fascinatingly ludicrous as your personal life is, let's leave it out of it.
You've failed to demonstrate a convincing economic argument as to why Ireland (as opposed to a couple of gombeens taking their cut of the tax subsidies farmed out to them by the governmen) should take the stupid risk of being involved in the US's war.
You've also completely failed to address the immorality of supporting the indiscriminate murder of citizens in pursuit of some intangible and probably bogus "democracy". We've seen the US approach to democracy in Haiti and Grenada, in Venezuela and El Salvador. You'll forgive us if the rest of the world doesn't fall over itself to help while the USA strangles people with the stars and stripes while raping them with the collected works of Von Hayek.
Should Homeland Security get wind of a site like this one, the IP address of the computer of, hmm, let's say R. Isible would be sufficient to identify that gentleman and immediately preclude him and his immediate family from ever travelling to the United States. Should he attempt to illegally enter the country via Canada or Mexico, he could be imprisoned for up to 20 years on The Alien Registration Act of 1940, usually called the Smith Act.
Loser: Willis
Willy lost the debate when he had no facts to back up his opinions and then called in the Stasi to have his debate opponent arrested.
Winner: R Isible
Backed up his opinion with facts and sources.
R Isible wins a free flight to Guantánamo.
[ Please pick up your prize at the ticket desk of Shannon International Airport ]
Wow, I could only wish we had guys as good as the Stasi!
Willis,
I am not trying 'to cut to the chase' at all.. You are getting me wrong. I completly understand your position and I would share the same feeling about this.
Yes, of course its wrong to attack Iraq and to allow the U.S Military to stop over at Shannon. But its also wrong to preach hatred on the basis of Religion by this Islamic cleric against the Irish people. Nobody should be allowed threaten a country like this cleric did. Quite clearly, he said 'Ireland could become a legitimate target'. If you ask me, thats an indication of a threat. Do you not think that this comment was out of context?
Would you have expected a gladiator owner to dis Julius Caesar back in the day? Or for a Mr. PG Tips tea grower in India to say that Queen Vic was getting it all wrong? What the US is doing is protecting its elites interests overseas, and ensuring the empire remains strong. There'll be no persuading Mr. Willis to change his tack, he is what he is, a privilaged American investor in stocks, who doesn't care if Iraqi or Afghani or indeed Irish children are burnt alive by laser guided incendiary munitions launced by US marines against a 'suspected' al-queda base, they're collateral damage to the investor, they don't really affect the returns from the investments in the old arms portfolio. I feel really sorry for the actual marines who are out there doing the fighting, they're the ones who will pay with their lives, or for the rest of their lives, what with gulf war syndrome, post traumatic stress syndrome etc.etc. and who will be forgotten by people like Willis after the war(this war) is over. And whatever about continental europeans not liking the swiss, and perhaps the irish, I have yet to meet one who has an opinion like this. But I do know that many continental and non-continental europeans, both christian and moslem, hindu and atheist dislike americans for what their government is doing the world over. As for ones IP address being used to prevent people who post anti american sentiments on websites like this from getting into the good old usa, feck it, who cares, why do all americans think that the rest of the world is dying to get in there, the rest of the world is dying because of whats coming out of there!
I don't rely on Mr. Moore for information, as for the tv show, everyone can be discredited if enough work is put into it. I would score my own rhetoric quite low, but the substance is not that bad methinks. I was only replying to points you made yourself in a previous post. But as I was saying, theres no point in trying to persuade you to change your thinking, you are what you are. heres a link for you to have a look at:
http://www.iacenter.org/depleted/du_iraq.htm
Hope it interests you, but considering the way you most probably are, it will probably inspire you to invest in the company who manufactures these munitions, and allow you to profit not only from the immediate death and pain they cause but also in the aftermath of their use, perhaps now is the time to invest in a company who specialise in the remediation of lands poisoned by DU. And tell me this,(don't really get the chance to ask these questions of really rich people on this site) what do really rich people do with all the money they have? Apart from making more money of course? And is there any such thing as having enough? Or does the persuit of riches, the thrill of the hunt so to speak, give you a buzz? I could go on about morality, ethics etc. etc. but I know that it might upset you, and I don't want to do that.
It would be great to stop all war; but, then you would have to snuff out the Hitlers at birth first.
‘Don’t rejoice in his defeat, you men,
for though the world stood up and
stopped the bastard,
the bitch that bored him is
in heat again.’
- Bertolt Brecht
War is awful, but, at times necessary. If you were able to be on top of the news during D-Day as we are today, you would have called it a massacre and stated such a failure meant we should all go home and leave Hitler alone. You are a very silly person without any perspective. You mean well, I suppose; but, you are not at all realistic in your warm fuzzy liberal world.
As for sanctions, I don't believe they work because only the people suffer. I remember watching Tarik Assiz remonstrating the U.N. sanctions while wearing a gold Rolex Oyster. Hey, but what will Europe recommend against Iran? Yep, sanctions.
You guys see things in black and white making it easier to preach and feel so ethical; yet your own country is guilty of terrorism and innocent people being blown to bits and your Gardai are not above torture, either. Watch out when calling the kettle black.
Do you mean by your facile combination of a Brecht quote and time travelling pre-natal execution of evil monsters, that Hitler was born to lead a war?
I had always thought other factors contributed. I was pretty convinced that if Hitler had sold more paintings, and hadn't volunteered for the German army and fought for the Kaiser and got that crazy warmongering lust, the whole WW2 thing and 3rd reich, wouldn't have happened.
Hmmmm.
I wonder whose fault Hitler's "world war one" was. Oh yes. Princep. If only Princep had not thrown that bomb at the Archduke and killed him, Russia wouldn't have mobilised and the war wouldnt have started. Background causes. What if Princep had had a smaller family? Or hadn't suffered TB? What if "Young Bosnia" (Mlada Bosna), which he joined in 1911 had been comitted to solely democratic means? Wouldn't that have stopped Mr Hitler's evil?
You see Willis, time travel would be wasted on you.
You'd go back in time and kill the wrong man.
Amazing you didn't mention the real cause of WWII and Hitler. Yep, I think you will kick yourself for missing the obvious here.
It was the Treaty of Versaille that created the monster - Europe's stupidity.
"What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy? ", I'll let you guess who said that, and add on to the end, a healthy profit. Tip, they also said "hate the sin, love the sinner", thats why I won't get upset over you repeatedly calling me silly.
Back to the basis issue folks..
Shannon airport is being used as an important staging area by the US in their illegal war.
How can we be surprised that those opposing the US in Iraq see Ireland as a member of the "coalition of the drilling" and as such to be their enemy?
Only asking !
To the Shadow and Willis,
You have found your own people been discriminated against by this cleric.
Discrimination did beget hate.
Hate begets xenofobia.
Xenofobia will beget hatred.
fun and games
.
Didn't know you were Willie O'Dea. You tryin to steal someone's identity? Anyway, back to the point now. This Islamic cleric had no right to incite religious hatred. Ireland is NOT part of any military coalition against the muslim world. This cleric was using this issue as an advantage to get across his point that he would like to see Ireland attacked.
If I'd been born in 1917 in Leidenstadt
On the ruins of an old battle site
Would I have been a better or worse man
Had I been born a German?
Cradled in hate, ignorance and humiliation
Nourished by dreams of retaliation
Would I have had an offbeat conscience
A simple teardrop amidst raging torrents
If I'd grown up around the dockhands of Belfast
Amidst the hate, the guns and the blast
Could I have found the force to help betray a friend
Think my own way to the end
If I was born white and rich in Johannesburg
Where fear and power's the only word
Could I have heard the cry of change blow in the wind
Never be the same again
We'll never really know what we hold inside
Behind all those fronts, we hide
The soul of a hero, a conspirator or a torturer
Either for the worse, or for the better
Would we be fighters or like sheep in a flock
If it meant more than just talk
And hopefully we may be spared from having to decide
For a long time what shall be our side.
"If I was born white and rich in Johannesburg
Where fear and power's the only word
Could I have heard the cry of change blow in the wind
Never be the same again"
We have our own apartheid we just build the walls further away.
So no you wouldn't.
I have to say that the poems/verses above don't really stick to the point that is under discussion here : about Anjem Chorduary's speech that incited racism. Its outrageous that this cleric gave such a fiery speech like that. He did threaten that Ireland would be attacked. I thought that it was necessary for Willie O'Dea to bring in some form of legislation that would help to tackle this problem of incitement of racism by extremist clerics like Anjem Chorduary.
cite where Choudary "incited racism". Or "threatened Ireland". The exact quotes please.
Saying "If Shannon continues to be used to ferry US troops and bombs to Iraq then Ireland will become a target for terrorists" is the same thing as saying "If Western civilisation continues to pump CO2 into the air then the sea is going to rise and flood the Netherlands and Portmarnock". Neither of those is a threat, it's a statement of probable consequence.
Substantiate your assertions please.
More akin to a gangster who typically says:
'hey, if you don't pay us for insurance, something real bad could happen to you and your family. Get me?'
That way everyone can decide whether your interpretation is plausible. Otherwise we can both make up stuff about how Choudary begged and pleaded with the audience and cajoled them with candy and magic tricks. There's no point in making interpretations without providing supporting evidence. Anything else is just time-wasting hypothesising. End of story.
"So, that means that Bush, Saddam Hussein, Pat Robertson, Osama bin Laden, the neocons and the Taliban are all judged as equally repulsive and guilty"
What a ridicules statement. The difference is that Bush was responding to 9/11, OBL, and the future of the democracy.
Anyone who argues otherwise is a fool. Surely they can clearly see from this kinda speech that it was really meant to bully Irish people into doing what he wanted otherwise we would be attacked. Thats the clear impression I get from his speech.
Otherwise you're just blowing hot air. In fact it would be best if you gave us a transcript of the entire speech so that we can decide for ourselves.
The introduction states:
"The subject of this opinion piece submitted to Indymedia Ireland is Anjem Choudary (also known as Omar Bakri Muhammad)..."
This is incorrect. These are two separate people who share a similar world view.
As of February 2006 Choudry is an active media player in UK.
Omar Bakri Muhammad is elsewhere (Beirut, I think.) having done a runner to avoid arrest.
I have never heard such dribble from one person before, I have to agree with the majority of respones here your tattle about stopping fuelling at Shannon or we are basically asking for trouble is akin to saying 'OK Islam we won't do anything you don't like' this is our world, not one persons, or one religions. And please stop talking rubbish about ' yeah, no one line answers give me a sensible response. ' What do you honestly expect.
After all this time? Could this possibly be because there isn't one? Again, you fail to understand that what Choudary is saying is a simple statement of fact: Irish complicity in US wars makes us a target.
It's not hard to understand and it's not the same as a threat. It's like saying that living on the San Andreas fault means you've got a good chance of being killed by an earthquake.
Oh noes! Time for the War Against Earthquakes!