Political Economy of Genocide

by avi15 Thu Sep 14, 2006 21:20

Genocide is word all too easily bandied about. 6m Jews, 1.5m Cambodians, 1m Rwandans, 2m Armenians - that's genocide, where the avowed aim of the perpetrators was to destroy an entire people. Palestinians casualties cannot by any stretch of the imagination meet this definition. To use the G. word in this context is pure dishonesty. One just has to understand the firepower of the Israeli army to see that it is not being deployed to anything more than a tiny, tiny fraction of its full capacity against the Pals.

In fact, if anyone is under threat of genocide it is the Jews, whose only country in the world is constantly having to fight off obliteration by muslims. No-one should think that the Jewish people would recover from a second holocaust, in which Israel is destroyed and its inhabitants massacred, as promised over and over by the Pals and their buddies in places like Iran, etc.

by Paul Baynes Thu Sep 14, 2006 21:50

Israel is a nuclear power. The Palestinians have yet to establish a sovereign state. They presently do not even have control of their own water supplies.

To speak about the Palestinians as a threat to the existence of Israel is ludicrous.

by eastern eye Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:59

"Palestinian build the Apartheid wall" is a photoshop work. Someone mixed 2 photoes togoether, one of the workers and barbwire and one of the wall.

by barra Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:13

Palestinian workers from the village of Saniriya (next to Mash'ha) building the barbed wire fence separting Mas'ha from Hani Amaer house and Elqana settlement.

http://www.pbase.com/yalop/fence

by Avi15 Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:40

That Israel and the Jews are threatened with destruction is no myth. Nuclear weapons are no use whatever against terrorists. The Arab strategy is to destroy Israel with 'death by a thousand little cuts'. This involves just striking at it in every way possible and at all times possible, until it is destroyed. Blow up restaurants and buses, send over indiscriminate rockets, launch the Arab armies again when ready, attack Israel in the UN and world media, get useful idiots in the West to go on solidarity marches and boycotts, kill Jews abroad, etc. etc.The hope is eventually to reach a tipping point, at which the Jewish population in Israel starts to flee and the economy collapses.

by MichaelY - iawm Fri Sep 15, 2006 14:02

I wouldn't argue against the last message's core point that Israel, as a State of Exception, is a fragile political entity. A manufactured structure, based on colonial antecedents, the planned and violent grabbing of land, the barbaric expulsion of the local population, the import of settlers benefitting from the guilt of the 'West'...how else can it be but permeated through and through with fragility and exceptional features?
But as one of those 'idiots', so eloquently labelled by Avixxxx, working with Palestinians I do believe that the refugee issue is, and must be recognised, as the root of the Israeli-Arab conflict. The positions of both the Israeli elite and the Palestinian/Arab side have not changed on this issue since 1948. The refugee issue is still the major stumbling block for peace in that torn part of the world - known as Palestine.
Israel must begin to recognise the return of refugees not as 'a demographic threat', as it does widely right now, but as a natural process in a world where people move back to their country of origins once the political situation stabilises or the economic conditions improve (see Ireland for example). This would also be part of the recognition by the global community that notwithstanding past structures of power and authority, including violence, proportionate or not, a new relationship betwenn victim and victimiser can be built.
This debate of course, brings up the issue of the one or two states solution....I, as again one of those idiots who care about Palestine, believe that the latter affects both Israelis and Palestinians most negatively...but let us stop here not to confuse avi further.

All rational responses welcome.

Btw, as mentioned in another thread, the national boycott of Israeli goods begins tomorrow. This call is supported by all Palestinian organisations as well as many Israelis.

by jasus Fri Sep 15, 2006 14:59

The refugee issue is still the major stumbling block for peace in that torn part of the world - known as Palestine.

Indeed, but Israel makes up less than 20% of Palistine. And everybody knows because it is written in the mandates of hamas et all that if Israel did grant right of return they would have palestinian arabs running all over Israel with bombs.

the Palestinian arabs left in 48 on the advice of the invading arab armies who also said they should return once they had cleansed the area of jews.

Unfortunately for them they backed the wrong horse. Like Israel did in 48 under the auspice of UN resolution calling and voted in the affirmative for the creation of 2 seperate states, the Palestinian arabs could have then also created their own state. this state would have been much much larger than anything they will now ever recieve.(see UN resolution It is noones fault but their own that their leadership has failed them time after time after time, housed one of the most corrupt organisations on earth that spent most of the money it recieved, not on its people but in nice swiss bank accounts
funny also how their greatest enemy the USA is actually their biggest donor

see below for the makeup of the arab state as defined by the UN res 181
its pretty comprehensive and quite large, see the jewish state as defined by UN181---tis tiny, if the arabs had decalred independance they would have been the clear winners

they will never get anything approaching this again

Part II. - Boundaries
A. THE ARAB STATE
The area of the Arab State in Western Galilee is bounded on the west by the Mediterranean and on the north by the frontier of the Lebanon from Ras en Naqura to a point north of Saliha. From there the boundary proceeds southwards, leaving the built-up area of Saliha in the Arab State, to join the southernmost point of this village. There it follows the western boundary line of the villages of 'Alma, Rihaniya and Teitaba, thence following the northern boundary line of Meirun village to join the Acre-Safad Sub-District boundary line. It follows this line to a point west of Es Sammu'i village and joins it again at the northernmost point of Farradiya. Thence it follows the sub-district boundary line to the Acre-Safad main road. From here it follows the western boundary of Kafr-I'nan village until it reaches the Tiberias-Acre Sub-District boundary line, passing to the west of the junction of the Acre-Safad and Lubiya-Kafr-I'nan roads. From the south-west corner of Kafr-I'nan village the boundary line follows the western boundary of the Tiberias Sub-District to a point close to the boundary line between the villages of Maghar and 'Eilabun, thence bulging out to the west to include as much of the eastern part of the plain of Battuf as is necessary for the reservoir proposed by the Jewish Agency for the irrigation of lands to the south and east.

The boundary rejoins the Tiberias Sub-District boundary at a point on the Nazareth-Tiberias road south-east of the built-up area of Tur'an; thence it runs southwards, at first following the sub-district boundary and then passing between the Kadoorie Agricultural School and Mount Tabor, to a point due south at the base of Mount Tabor. From here it runs due west, parallel to the horizontal grid line 230, to the north-east corner of the village lands of Tel Adashim. It then runs to the northwest corner of these lands, whence it turns south and west so as to include in the Arab State the sources of the Nazareth water supply in Yafa village. On reaching Ginneiger it follows the eastern, northern and western boundaries of the lands of this village to their south-west comer, whence it proceeds in a straight line to a point on the Haifa-Afula railway on the boundary between the villages of Sarid and El-Mujeidil. This is the point of intersection. The south-western boundary of the area of the Arab State in Galilee takes a line from this point, passing northwards along the eastern boundaries of Sarid and Gevat to the north-eastern corner of Nahalal, proceeding thence across the land of Kefar ha Horesh to a central point on the southern boundary of the village of 'Ilut, thence westwards along that village boundary to the eastern boundary of Beit Lahm, thence northwards and north-eastwards along its western boundary to the north-eastern corner of Waldheim and thence north-westwards across the village lands of Shafa 'Amr to the southeastern corner of Ramat Yohanan. From here it runs due north-north-east to a point on the Shafa 'Amr-Haifa road, west of its junction with the road of I'billin. From there it proceeds north-east to a point on the southern boundary of I'billin situated to the west of the I'billin-Birwa road. Thence along that boundary to its westernmost point, whence it turns to the north, follows across the village land of Tamra to the north-westernmost corner and along the western boundary of Julis until it reaches the Acre-Safad road. It then runs westwards along the southern side of the Safad-Acre road to the Galilee-Haifa District boundary, from which point it follows that boundary to the sea.

The boundary of the hill country of Samaria and Judea starts on the Jordan River at the Wadi Malih south-east of Beisan and runs due west to meet the Beisan-Jericho road and then follows the western side of that road in a north-westerly direction to the junction of the boundaries of the Sub-Districts of Beisan, Nablus, and Jenin. From that point it follows the Nablus-Jenin sub-District boundary westwards for a distance of about three kilometres and then turns north-westwards, passing to the east of the built-up areas of the villages of Jalbun and Faqqu'a, to the boundary of the Sub-Districts of Jenin and Beisan at a point northeast of Nuris. Thence it proceeds first northwestwards to a point due north of the built-up area of Zie'in and then westwards to the Afula-Jenin railway, thence north-westwards along the District boundary line to the point of intersection on the Hejaz railway. From here the boundary runs southwestwards, including the built-up area and some of the land of the village of Kh. Lid in the Arab State to cross the Haifa-Jenin road at a point on the district boundary between Haifa and Samaria west of El- Mansi. It follows this boundary to the southernmost point of the village of El-Buteimat. From here it follows the northern and eastern boundaries of the village of Ar'ara rejoining the Haifa-Samaria district boundary at Wadi 'Ara, and thence proceeding south-south-westwards in an approximately straight line joining up with the western boundary of Qaqun to a point east of the railway line on the eastern boundary of Qaqun village. From here it runs along the railway line some distance to the east of it to a point just east of the Tulkarm railway station. Thence the boundary follows a line half-way between the railway and the Tulkarm-Qalqiliya-Jaljuliya and Ras El-Ein road to a point just east of Ras El-Ein station, whence it proceeds along the railway some distance to the east of it to the point on the railway line south of the junction of the Haifa-Lydda and Beit Nabala lines, whence it proceeds along the southern border of Lydda airport to its south-west corner, thence in a south-westerly direction to a point just west of the built-up area of Sarafand El 'Amar, whence it turns south, passing just to the west of the built-up area of Abu El-Fadil to the north-east corner of the lands of Beer Ya'aqov. (The boundary line should be so demarcated as to allow direct access from the Arab State to the airport.) Thence the boundary line follows the western and southern boundaries of Ramle village, to the north-east corner of El Na'ana village, thence in a straight line to the southernmost point of El Barriya, along the eastern boundary of that village and the southern boundary of 'Innaba village. Thence it turns north to follow the southern side of the Jaffa-Jerusalem road until El-Qubab, whence it follows the road to the boundary of Abu-Shusha. It runs along the eastern boundaries of Abu Shusha, Seidun, Hulda to the southernmost point of Hulda, thence westwards in a straight line to the north-eastern corner of Umm Kalkha, thence following the northern boundaries of Umm Kalkha, Qazaza and the northern and western boundaries of Mukhezin to the Gaza District boundary and thence runs across the village lands of El-Mismiya El-Kabira, and Yasur to the southern point of intersection, which is midway between the built-up areas of Yasur and Batani Sharqi.

From the southern point of intersection the boundary lines run north-westwards between the villages of Gan Yavne and Barqa to the sea at a point half way between Nabi Yunis and Minat El-Qila, and south-eastwards to a point west of Qastina, whence it turns in a south-westerly direction, passing to the east of the built-up areas of Es Sawafir Esh Sharqiya and 'Ibdis. From the south-east corner of 'Ibdis village it runs to a point southwest of the built-up area of Beit 'Affa, crossing the Hebron-El-Majdal road just to the west of the built-up area of 'Iraq Suweidan. Thence it proceeds southward along the western village boundary of El-Faluja to the Beersheba Sub-District boundary. It then runs across the tribal lands of 'Arab El-Jubarat to a point on the boundary between the Sub-Districts of Beersheba and Hebron north of Kh. Khuweilifa, whence it proceeds in a south-westerly direction to a point on the Beersheba-Gaza main road two kilometres to the north-west of the town. It then turns south-eastwards to reach Wadi Sab' at a point situated one kilometer to the west of it. From here it turns north-eastwards and proceeds along Wadi Sab' and along the Beersheba-Hebron road for a distance of one kilometer, whence it turns eastwards and runs in a straight line to Kh. Kuseifa to join the Beersheba-Hebron Sub-District boundary. It then follows the Beersheba-Hebron boundary eastwards to a point north of Ras Ez-Zuweira, only departing from it so as to cut across the base of the indentation between vertical grid lines 150 and 160.

About five kilometres north-east of Ras Ez-Zuweira it turns north, excluding from the Arab State a strip along the coast of the Dead Sea not more than seven kilometres in depth, as far as 'Ein Geddi, whence it turns due east to join the Transjordan frontier in the Dead Sea.

The northern boundary of the Arab section of the coastal plain runs from a point between Minat El-Qila and Nabi Yunis, passing between the built-up areas of Gan Yavne and Barqa to the point of intersection. From here it turns south-westwards, running across the lands of Batani Sharqi, along the eastern boundary of the lands of Beit Daras and across the lands of Julis, leaving the built-up areas of Batani Sharqi and Julis to the westwards, as far as the north-west corner of the lands of Beit-Tima. Thence it runs east of El-Jiya across the village lands of El-Barbara along the eastern boundaries of the villages of Beit Jirja, Deir Suneid and Dimra. From the south-east corner of Dimra the boundary passes across the lands of Beit Hanun, leaving the Jewish lands of Nir-Am to the eastwards. From the south-east corner of Beit Hanun the line runs south-west to a point south of the parallel grid line 100, then turns north-west for two kilometres, turning again in a southwesterly direction and continuing in an almost straight line to the north-west corner of the village lands of Kirbet Ikhza'a. From there it follows the boundary line of this village to its southernmost point. It then runs in a southerly direction along the vertical grid line 90 to its junction with the horizontal grid line 70. It then turns south-eastwards to Kh. El-Ruheiba and then proceeds in a southerly direction to a point known as El-Baha, beyond which it crosses the Beersheba-EI 'Auja main road to the west of Kh. El-Mushrifa. From there it joins Wadi El-Zaiyatin just to the west of El-Subeita. From there it turns to the north-east and then to the south-east following this Wadi and passes to the east of 'Abda to join Wadi Nafkh. It then bulges to the south-west along Wadi Nafkh, Wadi 'Ajrim and Wadi Lassan to the point where Wadi Lassan crosses the Egyptian frontier.

The area of the Arab enclave of Jaffa consists of that part of the town-planning area of Jaffa which lies to the west of the Jewish quarters lying south of Tel-Aviv, to the west of the continuation of Herzl street up to its junction with the Jaffa-Jerusalem road, to the south-west of the section of the Jaffa-Jerusalem road lying south-east of that junction, to the west of Miqve Yisrael lands, to the northwest of Holon local council area, to the north of the line linking up the north-west corner of Holon with the northeast corner of Bat Yam local council area and to the north of Bat Yam local council area. The question of Karton quarter will be decided by the Boundary Commission, bearing in mind among other considerations the desirability of including the smallest possible number of its Arab inhabitants and the largest possible number of its Jewish inhabitants in the Jewish State.

B. THE JEWISH STATE
The north-eastern sector of the Jewish State (Eastern Galilee) is bounded on the north and west by the Lebanese frontier and on the east by the frontiers of Syria and Trans-jordan. It includes the whole of the Huleh Basin, Lake Tiberias, the whole of the Beisan Sub-District, the boundary line being extended to the crest of the Gilboa mountains and the Wadi Malih. From there the Jewish State extends north-west, following the boundary described in respect of the Arab State. The Jewish section of the coastal plain extends from a point between Minat El-Qila and Nabi Yunis in the Gaza Sub-District and includes the towns of Haifa and Tel-Aviv, leaving Jaffa as an enclave of the Arab State. The eastern frontier of the Jewish State follows the boundary described in respect of the Arab State.

The Beersheba area comprises the whole of the Beersheba Sub-District, including the Negeb and the eastern part of the Gaza Sub-District, but excluding the town of Beersheba and those areas described in respect of the Arab State. It includes also a strip of land along the Dead Sea stretching from the Beersheba-Hebron Sub-District boundary line to 'Ein Geddi, as described in respect of the Arab State.

they need to wake up to themselves

by jasus Fri Sep 15, 2006 15:40

The problem with the arabs was their greed. They wanted to obliterate the jewish state and then create their own state, which naturally would include the cleansed territory. Luckily for the Jewish nation they failed in their attempt at genocide, therefore their own leaders were again to blame and hence why they never created their state. this is essentially still what they want to do, their leadership still has not learned and as a result , their children bare the pain of the previous generations stupidity

one wonders how many generations it will take them before they actually cop on to this.

by not jasus Fri Sep 15, 2006 16:06

The problem with the jews was their greed. They wanted to obliterate the German state and then create their own state, which naturally would include the cleansed territory. Luckily for the German nation they failed in their attempt at genocide, therefore their own leaders were again to blame and hence why they never created their state. this is essentially still what they want to do, their leadership still has not learned and as a result , their children bare the pain of the previous generations stupidity

one wonders how many generations it will take them before they actually cop on to this.

---

Amazing what changing a couple of words does

by MichaelY - iawm Fri Sep 15, 2006 17:35

I am sorry jaysus - or whatever other name you may use - but I will refuse to look at Palestine mainly through Zionist spectacles and reason on Zionist premises. I find your assertion that in 1948, 750,000 Palestinians left their houses, shops and land "voluntarily", because of supposed promises by Arab Governments so obscene as to defy comment. It is as obscene as recent Israeli claims that their invasion of Lebanon and the killing of over 1,200 Lebanese civilians was "defensive"! But as your mate said earlier, we are "idiots"....we don't follow your elaborate logic!!

If we go back a bit, to 1920 or so, British support for an independent Arab nation was expressed when Britain needed Arab forces to fight the Turks. The Balfour Declaration giving support for a Jewish national home was made when Britain needed Jewish support - - politically and scientitifcally during WWI. Lloyd George, as early as 1917, was fantasizing upon the biblical drama, saying that he wanted Jerusalem for Christmas that year. He got it courtesy of General Allenby ....it's strange that Lloyd George's fantasies found a natural echo in George Bush's talk of "a crusade" in the immediate aftermath of 9/11.

Twenty years later, in 1936, Lloyd George, in the House of Commons, speaking on the 'Arab Revolt' ( yes the Arabs were struggling long time before the Zionists arrived) was saying: "The Government decided...to secure the sympathy and co-operation of that most remarkable community, the Jews......they were helpful for us in America, and they were very helpful in Russia....under these conditions we proposed this (i.e. to install a Jewish State) to our Allies : France, Italy and The Unites States - they accepted it.

A year later, in 1939, Churchill wrote prophetically about what was going to happen in Palestine:
"The wealthy, crowded, progressive Jewish State will be in the plains and coast. Around it, in the hills and uplands, stretching into the deserts, the warlike Arabs...will offer a ceaseless menace of war. To maintain itself the Jewish State must be armed to the teeth and must bring in every able bodied man and woman to strengthen its Army. Who can be sure that, cramped as they are, the Jews would not plunge into the new undeveloped lands that lie around them? I find it difficult to resist the conclusion that the partition scheme would lead inevitably to the complete evacuation of Palestine from its inhabitants"!!

And so, as they say, it came to pass. 'Voluntary exile' indeed!

I will leave the last word to John B Glubb, Commander of the Arab Legion in 1939 : "....The age long Jewish tragedy must cease. But when it somes to the payment of compensation in expiation of their past shortcomings, the Christian nations of Europe and America decided that the bill should be paid by a Muslinm nation in Asia".

This was before WWII and the barbarism of the Nazis. This was while Uganda was considered as a second option for the Jewish State. This was while Britain was considering deporting the Palestinians to the Djezaira area of Syria, the deserted area near Aleppo. Interestingly, this was where the Armenian deportees had ended their lives twenty years earlier massacred by the Turks.

But,. as they say, that's another chapter.

by jasus Fri Sep 15, 2006 18:14

I find your assertion that in 1948, 750,000 Palestinians left their houses, shops and land "voluntarily", because of supposed promises by Arab Governments so obscene as to defy comment

Really, well shame the leader of Syria at the time disagrees with you, according to him(his memoirs released in 73 from memory) the arab leaders did indeed ask the palestinian arabs to leave--you may want to check your history facts and dont do it from a pallywood site. As Syria was the main component of the arab force i would believe him rather than some pallywood glosser.

As far as quoting somebody **prophetising** that really is bottom of the barrel stuff there

Twenty years later, in 1936, Lloyd George, in the House of Commons, speaking on the 'Arab Revolt' ( yes the Arabs were struggling long time before the Zionists arrived

Err when exactly do you think the zionists arrived? lol, you must be reading too much pallywood, again i would suggest you check, you will see why i LOL

But when it somes to the payment of compensation in expiation of their past shortcomings, the Christian nations of Europe and America decided that the bill should be paid by a Muslinm nation in Asia".

Indeed the same christian nations that gave all of the middle eastern arabs(previously nomadic tribes such as the bedoiun etc) there countries in return for support against the ottoman empire, so you would think it was well within their right to do so now wouldnt you?

You would do well to study the m/east history from an independant perspective my friend, you will find that your pallywood knowledge is so wrong it just is LOL

by jasus Fri Sep 15, 2006 18:24

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity.... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel."
- Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head of the PLO and member of its Executive Council (Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977)

Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of the refugees... while it is we who made them leave.... We brought disaster upon ... Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave.... We have rendered them dispossessed.... We have accustomed them to begging.... We have participated in lowering their moral and social level.... Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon ... men, women and children--all this in the service of political purposes...."
- Khaled Al-Azm, Syria's Prime Minister

Since 1948 Arab leaders have approached the Palestine problem in an irresponsible manner.... they have used the Palestine people for selfish political purposes. This is ridiculous and, I could say, even criminal."
- King Hussein of Jordan, 1960

You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian People, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people."
- Syrian President Hafez Assad to PLO leader Yassir Arafat

by MichaelY - iawm Fri Sep 15, 2006 19:01

Jasus, historical truth is not achieved by throwing insults about Pallywood and the like. It's not achieved by calling people who support the Palestinians idiots.....

Sticking to one point at the time, let me quote for you The London Times of October 25th 1948 reporting from Beersheba - hardly a leftie or pro-Arab paper:
"The Arab villages are deserted, their miserable houses looted, and many are burnt. The inhabitants, estimated to be about 20,000 - a number which has been swollen considerably by refugees from the north - have fled and no one knows, or apparently cares, where they have gone. It is obvious that most have fled in panic, leaving behind their cloaks, sheepskins and blamkets, so necessary if they are to survive the cold nights of the Hebron hills....at present members of the Israeli Army are systematically looting those houses which survived the bombing...it is perhaps difficult to excuse the behavious of some, who ridicule Islamic devotions...holy books have been torn and strewn upon the floor...."

And so it goes....not exactly a scene where Palestinians left willingly taken in by the sirens of the Arab leaders.

Of course the other side of the same coin were the attacks by the Haganah and Irgun and Stern on the British and the Arabs alike - hardly a Pallywood invetion that one..... A British Colonial Office report of 1946 reads like an account of what's happening in Iraq right now. The bombing of British HQ at the King David Hotel by the irgun on 22 July 1946 killing 91 British, Jewish and Arab civil servants was just one of those heroic attacks by the Jewish liberation forces. And please don't tell me the Brits did worse...we know what they are capable of doing quite well in Ireland.

Dont you think that there is a fierce irony - Israel coming into being after a classic anti-colonial guerilla war against an occupation army - and 50 years later Israel's own army fighting an equally classic anti-colonial war. Is the connection lost on you Jasus? When Jewish armed men assassinated Lord Moyne in Cairo - or Count Folke Bernadotte in Jerusalem by the Stern - was that any different than PFLP men assassinating Jewish politicians?

It's a tragic debate this as we both argue from a very oppositional perspective. I, myself, still stick to the UN General Assembly resolution 194 of 1948 which said that the Palestinians must return to their homes in what is now Israel....you obviously disagree. That's why we will continue to fight jaysus!!!

by PaddyK Sat Sep 16, 2006 17:57

In order to discover if Genocide is being committed we must find an internationally accepted definition of genocide.

Here we are:

http://www.preventgenocide.org/genocide/officialtext.htm

So we look inside and we discover that:

"Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

Conditions of life ?????

Marwan Barghouti v. Israel
-------------------------
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=2423

by jasus Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:03

Jasus, historical truth is not achieved by throwing insults about Pallywood and the like. It's not achieved by calling people who support the Palestinians idiots

Well you certainly will not get any historical truth looking at a pallywood site, that much is guaranteed

As far as the leaving in 48 goes, the arab leaders called on the palestinian arabs to leave, it is irrifutable and undenialble, admitted by the arab leaders of the times, as far as quoting a british paper about israeli soldiers looting in 48, that is what happens in war michaely, all wars sees looting, undoubtably all arabs did not flee on the advice of the arab leaders and they did flee once the war came their way and it was clear that the arab armies were defeated

it is also very obvious what teh arabs tried to do, they did not declare an independant state once the british withdrew because they intended to invade Israel and finish what the germans started then declare a whole new state, their greed got the better of them

Just look at gaza as an example....they got it back on the condition that they police it etc, within 2 days the mortars and rockets were flying into Israel from there.

How can Israel trust a word their leaders say? they said they would not allow mortars and qasams to be fired from gaza yet 48 hours later they were raining in from gaza. This proves the point that whatever Israel gives them it will not be enough.

They still want what they tried in 48, total eradication of the Jewish race, a genocide
they will of course never achieve this, all their leaders do is bring more and more hardship upon their people by choosing poorly once again!

If they declared independance in 48 they would have been much better off, Israel would be a fraction of the size it is now

they chose poorly and they still choose poorly, untill they get some wise leaders that recognise that a settlement is the only option, they will continue to lose and Israel will go from strenght to strenght. they can never win with violence, only Israel can win that way

by MichaelY - iawm Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:25

" That is what happens in war michaely, all wars see looting, undoubtedly all arabs did not flee on the advice of the arab leaders and they did flee once the war came their way."

Jaysus, we are beginning to agree - albeit very very s l o w l y. This is exactly what happens in war, as you say. The only problem with your argument is that this 'war' by the developing Israeli Army was not with another Army but with civilians....who fled in their tens of thousands, as you say, when "war", i.e. the invading Israelis, came their way. If you think carefully of this image you paint, and jump forward 56 years - morph it forward....what do you get?

July and August last in Lebanon - that's what ! Tens of thousands fleeing "once the war came their way".1,200 plus killed, houses/bridges/roads/power stations, whole villages destroyed. Cluster bombs left behind.....still killing children and innocent civilians. Blame Hezbollah all you wish, blame Hamas in Gaza all you like.......what the Israeli State is doing through its Army is continuing its ethnic cleansing.

I finally agree with you that the armed contest between the Palestinians and the Israeli State is not an equal one. And I also agree with you that as long as the Palestinian leadership poses the issue and develops its strategy around armed struggle alone leading to two States....the perspectives for them don't look great. But that was why I posted my initial message that I'd ask you to go back and read carefully. And respond to the issues it raises, forgetting, momentarily if need be, the insults about Pallywood and "idiots"......

by jasus Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:59

In the early morning hours of May 15, 1948, Egyptian forces crossed the international border separating Israel and Egypt, and advanced in two columns: one North along the coastal Road and the other South-east towards Beer Sheba

Your assertion that the Israeli army was solely attacking civilians in beer sheba is ludicrous, they were driving back the Egyptians

also your quotes from glubb the british command, well i mean the guy you obviously misunderstand:

The formation of the Government of All-Palestine revived the mufti’s Holy War Army – Jaish al-Jihad al-Muqaddas. This irregular army endangered Transjordan’s control in Arab Palestine. The Transjordan government therefore decided to nip in the bud the challenge posed by this army to its authority. On 3 October, the minister of defence laid down that all armed bodies operating in the areas controlled by the Arab Legion were either to be under its orders or disbanded. Glubb carried out this order promptly and ruthlessly. Suspecting that Arab officers would balk at performing such an unpatriotic task, he sent British officers to surround and forcibly disband the Holy War Army. The operation brought the Arabs to the brink of internecine war when they were supposed to be cooperating against the common enemy. But it effectively neutralized the military power of Abdullah’s Palestinian rivals. Against this background, the Israeli attack on the Egyptian army was not altogether unwelcome. Glubb expressed the hope that the Jewish offensive ‘may finally knock out the Gaza government and give the gyppies a lesson!’ In a letter to Colonel Desmond Goldie, the British commander of the First Brigade, Glubb explained that ‘if the Jews are going to have a private war with the Egyptians and the Gaza government, we do not want to get involved. The gyppies and the Gaza government are almost as hostile to us as the Jews!’

You see in 1948 the truth is that transjordan and Israel were briefly united to expel a common enemy, this genocide you talk about is just thrash, they were expelling arab invading forces, i would doubt that a pallywood site would ever say that transjordan and Israel worked in tandem to defeat a common enemy! The transjordan government appealed to teh british to help them disarm the arab army as they knew that they would eventually seek to topple transjordan also! In fact was it not for transjordan Israel would not have stood a chance!

by MichaelY - iawm Mon Sep 18, 2006 14:22

Jaysus, please accept that you are continuing to evade the continuous past: Let us concentrate momentarily on the treatment of the Nakba and its aftermath by Israeli intellectuals- an area you should be familiar with. [The Nakba btw is what you call your War of Independence- but I'm sure you know that!].

The process of Israelis re-telling the Nakba began in the 1980s with so-called ‘new historians’ whose works have been shattering the Zionist consensus that during and after the 1948 war the majority of Palestinians either left their homes because they were instructed to do so by the invading Arab states, fled in ill-informed fear, or departed along with the defeated Arab armies (which is your line of argument!)

Either way, the accepted Israeli narrative was that the plight of the Palestinian refugees was neither the fault nor the responsibility of the Zionist leaders who supposedly greeted this emptying of Palestinian villages and towns as a welcome surprise. The work of ‘new historians’ such as Benny Morris (1987, 1994, 2004), Simha Flappan (1987), Ilan Pappé (1988) and Avi Shlaim (1988) made it clear to many Israelis that ‘the maps of meaning provided by Zionism are simply no longer adequate’ (Silberstein 2002).

However, with the exception of Pappé and Shlaim, Israeli historiographies of the Nakba, following Morris, prefer to believe that ‘war and not design, Jewish or Arab, gave birth to the Palestinian refugee problem' (you seem to disagree there - you blame the Arab leadership!). Indeed, right-wing Israeli intellectuals are increasingly comfortable with the idea that their country was built on ethnic cleansing (Gutwein 2002), with Morris himself declaring his disappointment that the Nakba was not more thorough (Shavit 2004). Furthermore, as Eldar and Zertal (2005) document, the settlers’ belief in the Jews’ exclusive right to the land of Israel was bought wholesale by successive governments and has guided policy. According to Sari Hanafi, compared with other colonial and ethnic conflicts, the 1948 war did not produce a lot of casualties; rather the notion of ‘Nakba’ is based on losing land and on refugeehood rather than on the loss of life. ‘The Israeli colonial project’, he argues, is not genocidal but “spacio-cidal”’ with the land being the main target (Hanafi 2005: 159). Ha'aretz in Hebrew - Al Ard in Arabic!! OK?

Israeli 1948 historiography, again with the exception of Pappé, in placing the Palestinian refugee problem within the timeframe of the war, closes the problem off from the present. It can thus be presented as an episode of history which is now over, a position which accords with Israeli policies that seek to dissolve the political dimension of the refugees’ dispossession (Piterberg 2001; Masalha 2003). And that is again your stance! Furthermore, for most ‘new historians’, ‘Jews are the subjects of history. Arabs are objects of Jewish action’ (Beinin 2004; Benvenisti 2000). Hence Morris’s total reliance on Israeli sources and his refusal to deal with Palestinian sources, stemming not merely from his inability to speak Arabic, but also from contempt for their point of view (Beinin 2004; Laor 2005). Even when the suffering of the Palestinians is acknowledged and highlighted, they are rarely allowed possession of their history. Such interpretive control enables Israeli historians, and Indymedia message developers, to create a neutralising distance from the Nakba. It happened, yes, we are not to blame yes, they must accept it and live with it yes, it was their fault anyway!!

A couple of final words on Zochrot that organises tours to Palestinian villages and towns destroyed during and after the 1948 war, during which clearly visible signs are posted to commemorate the sites and provide the Israeli public with basic information about the Nakba. The tours include the distribution of printed material written by former inhabitants and the unveiling of often-masked remnants of destroyed villages and urban quarters. Zochrot aims to uncover ‘a kind of memory that was deliberately and systematically hidden’ from Israeli Jews, and, ‘Hebrewise’ the Nakba by creating a space for it in the ‘written, spoken and public discourse of Hebrew Israel’, thus promoting an ‘alternative discourse on memory’.

Any views on Zochrot jaysus?