Wilder's Movie : Trailer Trash for a Wasted Generation..

by Fed up Tue Apr 01, 2008 13:55

Its pretty harmless. Far from hate crime. Sad times when somebody gets 600 death threats for making a short movie pointing out that the koran contains passages that clearly exhort it's followers to violence.

Geert wilders did not write the koran. And the (600+)death threats he has received, and the passages directly from the koran he quotes in his film are far more damning than any of the already well known and widely viewed images from the news media or the sad peer gynt music he stuffs in between them.

by Isaiah 40 Tue Apr 01, 2008 15:18

Nobody has seen the documentary "fed-up". There were no more than 3 million hits to the only server "liveleak.com" who would offer the treatment version. That server carried a message yesterday explaining the withdrawl of the product, which is still in post-production stage, due to specific threats (of an unspecified or sourced origin) to staff members of the internet company and "ill sourced reports in certain corners of British media". Well, they didn't describe it as a product still in treatment stage or post production. That's for the lawyers & those who pour over fine details.

One of the mysteries which yet may not be properly reconciled between the scientific speculation & theory of astrophysics & quantum mechanics is the nature of the event horizon & what it does to light or data. As we know, not even light may escape a black hole yet information may not be lost. Sorry, that was an aside just to show you how clever I am.

So - you purport to have seen the documentary & thus I presume visited that server, or are we to presume your sophisticated reference to the orchestral suite of a Norse composer is based on hear say? I'd rather think you're distracting from the freedom of hate speech championed by UCC debating society & RTE of late. Now don't confuse your Norwegians of "Peer Gynt" with your "Danish" who are cartooning Wilder with your bottle blonde supremacists. Next you'd be pretending all muslims are the same, jews are one of a feather or God Forbid all atheists hate religion.
_______________________________

Charming take from today's "Jerusalem Post" on Knowing the back roads and alleyways of the Internet is a responsibility - one I take very seriously. I can't give away all my tricks, but today I shall introduce you to one of the secrets most treasured by Internet surfers "in the know."
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=120663238145...wFull

traditionally a matter of predestination actually.

by Fed up Tue Apr 01, 2008 15:47

So if what you're saying is true then neither you nor chris have seen it. So how can she write an article about something she has never seen?? Why would she want to? And how can you comment on it either except from a position of ignorance and hearsay.

(FYI it is freely available, I have seen it and really don't see what the fuss is all about.)

And your pseudo scientific blackhole wikiwaffle doesn't fool me for an instant.

by William Kilgore Tue Apr 01, 2008 19:00

Some food for thought about the true nature of Islam in link below

by C Murray Tue Apr 01, 2008 19:31

The article was about a lot more than Wilders boring little abuse of office and attempt
to incite hatred about community. In fact it was more about the right to freedom of religious
association in an atmosphere of mechanisation and globalisation of individual and
community rights- was that not clear?

I put a link into the Rushdie comment on Blasphemy which is critical to the issue,
Rushdie has joined a PEN case against the UK government which seeks to define what is
God- if that is not a reductio ad absurdum I do not know what is. Wilders quite simply
joins the list of thickos who define their privilege of free expression upon which
many western constitutions have evolved, to abuse that privilege. (inciting hate crime)

Not alone in his approximation of creativity (which is right wing incitement- I read
about the movie at links and In the UK Independent), but in his wish to destroy
for others that privilege in seeking to abuse it with his full knowledge of that
legal situation... this is why I reffered to his intent in the matter and added the link
to his fumbling attempts to excise sections of the movie under threat of legal action
from amongst others The Cartoonist who said that his image was taken out of context:
It was a polemic against fanaticism and not against Islam- it was conceived to
provoke discussion and not incitement to hatred.

I have also written on the matter in relation to poetry, specifically Harrison
and 'The Blasphemer's Banquet' who describes rioting and book burning
in London in the aftermath of the Fatwa against Rushdie.

Finally I referred to the common root of the major religions and how their
hiving off into little secatarian groups is a result of their mechanistic and
materialistic approach to the philosphical roots of their belief systems which creates
and sustains hatred. The Pope is about to go to the US (during an election
campaign) he will visit ground zero, his visit has provoked controversy as he has
used a prayer that is Pre-Vatican II in which the RC communion prays
for the 'Veil to be lifted ' from the Jews' eyes which is translated by many as
a prayer for conversion of Jews-whose history and constant dialogue on articles
of faith through Talmud seems a more open and evolved philosophical method
of faith dialogue.

In response therefore, no- can't be arsed looking at the movie, but the article
was about creative expression and faith dialogue in the context of the
universal right to freedom of religious expression and not solely about
a working politician who abused office to incite hatred.

by Fed up Tue Apr 01, 2008 22:51

So you actually ADMIT you haven't even seen it.
Yet you can say the following:

He "made full use of his privilege to abuse freedom of expression and twist it into hate crime/crime of
hatred and incitement."

well, you would know wouldn't you, having watched his film so many times!!

You remind me of the people who, during the cartoons debacle, were angrily out on the streets, but who had not even seen the cartoons for themselves at all.

Well I guess I shouldn't be surprised at religious types knowing something with vigourous conviction without any irritating requirement for actual evidence. It's kinda the definition really isn't it. But it's exactly that kind of thinking that, if encouraged widely, will send us all back to the dark ages.

Sometimes humans are very disappointing. And if you can excuse the irony...I'd just like to say ...God help us all!!

by C Murray Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:29

Sometimes its in your face, like people standing outside the GPO holding banners
of eviscerated infants in order to teach young children that women are 'bad' for
choosing abortion- and is therefore unavoidable.

and sometimes you get to choose what you consume because it's all about branding
nowadays, in rejecting Wilders but clearly seeing his effect I made a consumer choice:

'Do I want to buy into a fat blonde person's twisting of danish free speech privilege
(whilst working in Parliament or not)????

In the same way I would choose not to watch or read war violence which
is on telly night and day. It does not mean that I am unaware of war. Wilders is
from a long line of pogromotic forces who have abused privilege historically.

next you will be saying that I have no right to talk of Voltaire or Spinoza cos I was
not there. I can see for myself the materialisation process in world religions, you
only have to compare the architectures of societies who seek to define what is
a god entity (indefinable and outside) and those that think they have it all sussed.
or those who use their religious dogma to visually propagandise- take a look
at the design of Fatima cathedral for instance.

The right to freedom of religious association is guaranteed, that does not
mean that governments and bureaucracies have the right to define how people
understand that religion .

by Isaiah 40 Wed Apr 02, 2008 21:51

Contrary to the facetious attempts by "fed up" to dismiss co-ordination against Wilders & his backers and fellow travellers in white supremacist and anti-immigrant and anti-muslim movements in Europe & the USA, I do not believe any of us have to have seen the documentary to take a position. We do not need to download child pornography, nor invite Irving or Dukes to speak to know what they're about. Wilders in an interview with "Speigel" today denied watering down the second version of his film and admitted his only attempt was to provoke. But provoke what? Examination of the Quran? "Fed up" missed the reference to the event horizon of orthodox astrophysics theory that nothing, not even light may escape a black hole and the obvious paradox that at quantum level information may not be destroyed. In late 2007 a prize of several million dollars was offered to anyone who can theorise a solution to the problem, which far from being "pseudoscience" has real as well as potentially catastrophic applications. Our top scientists in the first world search for the so-called "God particle" or Higgs Boson. At CERN regular worries turn to the potential of opening a black hole in its search a plausible side-effect which until they resolve the mystery to which I referred than simply may not rule out. But you don't need to know people at CERN to have contemplated that paradox, it is written into the Quran & in a particularly eloquent way.

The generally accepted "divine revelation" texts abound with what ignorant people short on wonder call pseudo-science. They quickly point at the obvious mistakes, exagerations, silly stories and in so doing defly avoid answering the question - why did such a text support a body of belief and transmission, which in turn helped facilitate the transmission of human achievement through the centuries? Christianity was impossible without the Roman Empire and its swords. Judaism as anyone bothered looking up Isaiah 40 knows is based on the sword, slingshot, rape of daughters,fratricide, genocide, ethnic cleansing, enslavement and family dynastic wrongdoings which stretch across centuries. I reviewed a book in 1997 whilst living in London for a masonic journal, the title of which was "the Harlot by the side of road", the author being Jonathan Kirsch. Its 300 odd pages examine with detail the horror, gore, crimes & wanton violence which the Old Testament may only be understood to promote.

So we might take that take on the roots of Christianity as being done. No-one is going to build a modern case of anti-semitism and promote an agenda of opposing jewish communities on the base of attacking their (& Christians') holy book.

discussion on the doc on Hancelsblad the Dutch newspaper "of reference"

http://weblogs.nrc.nl/weblog/discussion/

____________________________________________

Now as for the illustration, I am much more interested in seeing a documentary on the death of Salem Bin Laden the elder brother of the famous Osama in a plane crash on Bush family property in 1990, a tragedy which reminded so many of the death of their father Muhammad Bin Laden in a plane crash on Bush family property in 1967 (he had been their guest at the time) than seeing endless repeated footage of 2 planes hitting the world trade centre on 911.

Alas renewed interest in the ups and downs of the dynasty's legendary black sheep appear in Europe to be focussed in German paranoia resulting from his latest video. He was well pissed off about the cartoons. You might like to follow that Flash Gordon tale in English translation here, the chief of the German Secret Service is really scared about the threat from Africa. I told you that is where you're really going to get trouble from back in 2005. as it happens. :-
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,5431....html
here's a bit about Osama on the cartoon provocations. http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,542638....html
& just in case you're going off track, and have forgotton that civilised leftist Europe is actually interested in wrapping this whole thing up, as soon as possible, independence for Waziristan & all that bollox - here are some "Q&A" prepared for the Number 2 of AlQ, you're probably late to get your queries in there, alas.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,528680....html

this is the sort of uninformed portayal of muslims that gets right up my nose.

by Isaiah 40 Thu Apr 03, 2008 01:06

Not really waiting for engagement from "fed up", whom for all I know may have been one of those who attempted to fill the illustration pages of this website many times before with anti-muslim or anti-religious cartoons, it is obvious to the world that Wilders exercise in p-r-o-v-a-c-a-t-i-o-n functions on several levels.

1) He has admitted and thus won a public recognition profile in Europe that the aim & purpose of his film is to end immigration by muslims to the Netherlands.
2) His project has clearly followed the debacle and same jaded sophism of the "freedom of hate speech" or "artistic license to ridicule" which the Jylland Post cartoons first provoked. I wrote about those cartoons on this newswire here in February 2006:- "Knowing which side thy bread be buttered :: Iran" http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74152 & I returned to the theme of how "an iconclastic age where hagiography & pornography, snuff & bluff provide omniprescent evidence for any meme we choose to interprete the tensions inherent in the crystalisation of superstate societies. most recently in this article of February 2008"Petition fails to lobby Wikipedia to remove images of Muhammad" http://www.indymedia.ie/article/86282
3) Given that the last publicity exercise by "Al Qaeda" was a video released for a muslim holiday which this year co-incided with the 5th anniversary of the occupation of Iraq which purported to record Osama Bin Laden's thoughts on cartoons and the need to destroy Saudi Arabia. A communication which we now ought know followed the "Q&A" process referred to in the last link of the last comment & given some background in this article ("Can we talk about "Talking to Al Qaeda" ? http://www.indymedia.ie/article/86708 ) it may be taken for granted that the regrettable & sordid process of insult & derision added to by the Jylland Post incident has not left popular conscienceness in states with high muslim populations.

However, the vast majority of Europeans have no concept of the expansion of Islam nor of the civilisation it fostered (either by succesful absorbtion or patronage). Preferring to think only that the somehow a group of nomadic tribes brought down two empires and unified an area from central asia to the Iberian peninsula, from the Adriatic coast to the Senegal river by sword and sword alone. That the cohercian of the sword allowed for the philosophy of Aristotle & maths of Euclid or Pythagoras to be preserved as the "zero" to bring Europeans one step closer to calculus. That the constant threat of muslim violence forced the Sephardi jews to ally with Islam against the barbarian christians of blonde haired northern Europe. That whereas the global conquest of Christianity destroyed every other civilisations records, the muslim by bloody scimitar did not burn the libraries of Timbuktu, Constantinople or Egypt. That whereas St Paul obliged European slaves and wives to obey their husbands, Islam put Razia on the throne of a culture which had quite simply mastered "long division sums".

I have worked in migration campaigns for a long time. There are as many different types of muslims as there are different types of atheist. There are as many different easy ways to provoke any community as cartoons which are not published on paedophilia or sitcoms on gang-rape. I wish the word "Respect" had not been sullied for Irish readers through its regretable recent politicisation in the UK as the name for a political platform. But "Respect" is what it is all about. Wilders is the enemy of the European migration and anti-racism movement. Wilders irresponsibility is not that of a van Gogh nor even is it directly comparable to the first set of cartoons in the Jyllands Post. "Fed up" in his/her last cartoons is quite simply wrong on that. It doesn't matter who has seen or has not seen Wilders film, it matters how it was marketed and what communities in Europe and their telephone calls to their kith and kin in Asia or Africa, think of his p-r-o-v-a-c-a-t-i-o-n
in the context of the contemporary history, globalisation of liberal capitalism, daily promotion of values, lifestyle options, entertainment products, scientific experiments or speculation & touristic arrogance which are quite frankly abominations to the consciences and moralities of the believers in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism etc., But only one religious group, perhaps the most diverse at the level of its adherents & faithful is subject to the linguistic and cultural assault of insult & prejudice.

On Which side of the Great Satan do you think Wilders Amsterdam really is ?
Do you need to visit it to make up your mind?
So finally "fed Up" you dare to tell me, an individual who has worked with immigrants of all religious and none, sitting with them in common purpose, that I have no right to oppose the Wilders film because I have not seen it??????????????

HAVE YOU READ THE QURAN?

you may not have your cake & eat it.
If you want respect for our art & liberty,
rooted in the philosophy they preserved for us
which brought us to our heights of
sleeze & porn & chimera clone research
then you stop slagging off their God & Prophet.

by Give me a break Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:15

Spare me the apologies for the "religion of peace."

by 80-ist Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:20

Bittorrented this. Crappy production values with largely still images linked with awful music. Looks like something a transition year class would make. Why did Wilders make it? Choose:
A) He doesn't like lots of largely brown people coming into Europe
or
B) He opposes (Islamic) theocracy and want's to preserve liberal social democratic ideals.

It's pretty clear Wilders is an option A man who dresses up his arguments as Option B. Equally we must be careful before we dismiss Option B because Option A is racist. Any theory of a progressive society requires separation of church and state. This applies to Christianity, Judaism etc as much as Islam. We still have Catholic theology embedded in Bunreacht na hEireann. Israel gives gives civic legitimacy to rabbinical courts. But Islam takes this much further and the concept of the "Islamic Republic" is simply inconsistent with civil society.

I believe a wider debate is needed on the issue of Islam as it effects the public sphere.

by Give me a break Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:28

When ever anybody dares to mention to violence extremism at the very heart of Islamic theology they are accused of racism and xenophobia amd threatened with violence by the followers of the "religion of peace."

I am an atheist, a liberal and a democrat.

Why should I apologise for insulting this the stupid evil Islamic belief system?

by observer Fri Apr 04, 2008 13:11

Islamic belief system.

Fundamentally the Islamic religion is not evil, love is at it's heart.

The Christian religion by comparison is far more evil and cruel within it's teachings than that of Islam.

What we are seeing portrayed today is a minority of it's believers who have taken the teachings to the 'nth degree, people who consider themselves to be oppressed frequently do this.

An example within the Christian teachings 'is an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' and other such diabolical instructions.

I myself am a pagan who was raised by pagan parents, I have no axe to grind :-)

My interests are to read a lot about peoples religions in order for me to understand them. A consequence of doing so means that I have numerous friends from many religions and non religions in all walks of life.

by anti-history Fri Apr 04, 2008 13:38

Its tantamount to theft in order to absorb and co-opt earth resources. Interesting that the propagators of
hate crime are of the white supremacist genus (nothing new or surprising there).. it begins with appeasement
of those who have engendered war in the name of their supremacism and blossoms into the Wilders
and Irvings.

apologists for crimes against humanity.

by Young Hegelist Fri Apr 04, 2008 15:11

Islam is not based on love and neither is Christianity. They are both invented creeds which serve the interests of the ruling classes.

In the real world, almost all monotheists had their ‘faith’ imposed on them in childhood, when they would be punished (by family, school or state) for dissent from it. Christian and islamic clergy routinely make clear their belief that, if they were deprived of their ability to coerce and intimidate, their faith communities would crumble away: and who can say they’re wrong about that?

Rather than make excuses for Islam you should admit that at the moment its worse than Christianity. At least Christianity has been tempered by the Reformation and Enlightenment. Islam has yet to undergo such reforms; hence the use of Sharia Law in Islamic countries.

This film was made by a bigot who doesn't like immigrants - Right! Slag off the film.

BUT!

That does not mean that Fundamentalist Islamists have the right to censor criticism of their religion.

Whos for banning The Life Of Brian?

by C Murray Fri Apr 04, 2008 18:51

I suppouse that its my own fault for not being crystal clear..

I referred to the literary and artistic culture of Islam in modern Western Literature as evidenced
in Doris Lessing and Ted Hughes, whose interest in Sufism formed a huge part of their
creative output. Another commentator referred to Islam and Quran in relation to the
spread of culture throughout civilised society which has been bastardised into horrible
things which have increased western supremacism.

Then there was the reference to Rushdie (who will speak in Dublin soon btw) and
his criticism of the blasphemy laws, which refer to a PEN case which highlights the
attempts of HMG to defend and protect the idea of a God- which to many would be
an absurdity.. Rushdie refers to it as ' if there is a God he does not need the protection
of the British Legal system and if there is not he certainly does not either'

(this refers to the call by PEN UK for the secularisation of the political sphere in relation
to plural societie) in an address by the new head of PEN). Artists and writers traditionally
accept plurality along with freedoms of speech.

Wilders simply focussed his ire on the failsafe negative propaganda ideology of
lumping a whole belief system into one thing: Islam=terrorism, sure thats offensive
to many who appreciate the cultural contribution of the philosophy in our societies.
He did so by making a film that shows his ignorance of culture and feeds
pogrom (and while he is a serving representative of a state)

= thats nowt to do with 'The Life of Brian' at all, at all.

by Young Hegelian Fri Apr 04, 2008 19:06

But it does have a lot to do with TLOB.

If mocking Allah or Muhammed or The Spaghetti Monster is to be banned then why notban TLOB?

If Muhammed existed at all then he made up the Koran. Just as Joseph Smith made up the book of Mormon. Nothing blessed about either of that pair. They both were into young girls.

by C Murray Fri Apr 04, 2008 19:20

Wilders is not taking the piss, there is a difference between satire and incitement.

I mean look at Johnathon Swift and his 'Modest Proposal'.

The context of subverting to elicit discussion is entirely different to taking elements of anti-islamic
propaganda and tying them up into a reason to reject the culture and philosophical systems
of peoples.

The difference being in the approach to the material and the reaction it gets: Wilders,
like many who take themselves very seriously (and abuse office to achieve their end)
lacks a sense of humour. Compare Westerhaarder, the cartoonist, who used
visual material to elicit discussion about fanaticism ,and wanted the cartoon removed
from the film cos he found the 'context' of the film offensive.

by C Murray Fri Apr 04, 2008 19:47

I never mentioned banning him...

I suggested that its ok not to consume and support his movie and become entangled
in the mire.. Afterall, am not pro-censorship . I asked why someone would want to
watch the thing (when they could spend the time doing something like actually learning
about Islam).

by Isaiah 40 Fri Apr 04, 2008 22:31

Understandably Dutch society doesn't want Irish weekend tourists killed in any dirty bomb attack on Amsterdam's Red Light district, & quaking in their little clogs at the prospect of having to deal with Brian "the Brawny" Cohan's military response, they are working overtime to defuse Wilders provocation taking note at both government level and in their main newspaper that the vast majority of people who now have an opinion on Wilders film haven't seen it or know how terribly crap it really is.

____________________

The english language translation of this week's key editorial of the Dutch newspaper "Handlesblad" which has been bounced in English & German translation to other news-sites will soon be only accessible on "pay for view" status. It makes interesting reading. Thus considering that this story & its provocation & horrible temptation to "self-fulfilling prophecy" has occupied more news-space in 2 EU states this week, I've though to reproduce it below the next line in its entirety.

____________________

"Political propaganda"
Dutch published: 28/3/ 2008
English translation 2/4/2008
European sindicalisation 4/4/2008

By NRC editorial staff

"Geert Wilders has kept his word. He has circulated his film Fitna before April 1 and has, as he puts it, been 'properly' restrained. The film, which nevertheless appeared unexpectedly on the internet on Thursday, is indeed not as shocking as expected during the hyped-up prelude to the premiere. But it is something of a travesty that Wilders is now demanding his critics behave 'properly' in the debate he wants to start - bearing in mind that it was Wilders himself who regularly avoided debate up to now.

So Fitna seems like an anticlimax. It goes no further than making suggestive comments: the suggestion that the Koran is the source of all the violence in the world; the suggestion that Islam is a threat to everyone's freedom, like Hitler and Stalin. But in Fitna, the Koran is not destroyed and the bomb in the prophet's turban, drawn by the Danish cartoonist, doesn't quite explode.

Has Wilders been successful in giving an example of his political and artistic skills with Fitna? Certainly not when it comes to his artistic capacity. Wilders doesn't have enough creative talent and is sloppy in his approach.

This might still prove a problem and he will probably have to explain himself before the courts. For example he used material from the Danish cartoonist without asking permission and wrongly said a photograph of a rapper was the murderer of film-maker Theo van Gogh. And he has dragged others along with him - proof of a stunning lack of responsibility. The Dutch public prosecution department is also looking into whether Fitna incites hatred in the legal sense.

Freedom of expression, one of the fundamental concepts of every democratic state, can cope with this amateurish attack. This confidence is confirmed by the muted reactions to the film to date. Earlier prime minister Jan Peter Balkenende had almost precipitated a sort of emergency by using the word 'crisis'. But when the hour of reckoning arrived, the prime minister limited himself to a declaration in which he said the government 'regretted' the film.

Representatives from Islamic organisations used a similar tone. Some reacted completely laconically. The question now is whether Fitna will be seen in the same way in less articulate circles in the Netherlands and abroad. After all, action and reaction belong together. Governments and individual agitators could use the film as an excuse to get even for other things. But the calm way the film has been received up to now gives hope.

Both left and right-wing politicians have dismissed the film as old hat. They saw 'nothing new' in the footage. But such comments show a misunderstanding of Wilders' political goal. He doesn't want to bring new insights or promote dialogue. Fitna is just a weapon in his propaganda war. His politics stand or fall with the concept of the 'self-fulfilling prophecy'. In this sense Wilders hasn't done himself or the citizens of the Netherlands a service. And that too must be said in public."

http://www.nrc.nl/international/

____________________________________

For those interested in what the Quran actually does say about conversion of non-believers who live in the territory of the "ummah" or "global caliphate" we're always being told about, four verses of the 16th sura (Al Nahl = "Bee") instructed globalised or imperialist Islam on its dealings with the scientists & theologists & philosophers of subject peoples, then as now, despite any misrepresentation by the West which insists on the current theory of an emergent Islamic internationalist terrorism. I would ask you to note the use of "your Lord" in this verses as opposed to the usual "the Lord" :-

"You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones.
And if you punish, you shall inflict an equivalent punishment. But if you resort to patience (instead of revenge), it would be better for the patient ones.
You shall resort to patience - and your patience is attainable only with God's help. Do not grieve over them, and do not be annoyed by their schemes.
God is with those who lead a righteous life, and those who are charitable."

____________________________________

For those interested in the aside on Quantum Physics and astrophysical theory of Black Holes, here is a lecture on the subject Jan 23 at Tel Aviv university - http://physics.technion.ac.il/~school/POSTER.html

Here is the site of CERN which is currently wrestling with the problem in its search for the Higgs Boson or "God's particle"
http://public.web.cern.ch/Public/Welcome.html

& here is the latest news on black hole theory from the quirky science web reporting how Hubble has found evidence of medium size black holes http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/080402-medium-bla....html
as soon as we figure out how they work we can travel by worm hole and won't need a Tara motorway.

____________________________________

Whether most people recognise it our not, only the -Germans in Europe thanks to their "kirktax" constitutional clause may argue to be properly post-religious or secular. German workers who do not register Christian worship on their census with its appropriate tax donation may not enjoy religious holidays & refuse to work at Easter or on Christmas day. Millions of Europeans regardless of their religious belief accept unthinkingly the scheme of holidays and days off and of rest dictated by religious custom. It is their custom. Any thinking and thorough secularist or atheist would lobby for all such days to be freely alloted and decided upon by the worker him or herself. What I once referred to as "non-banking days".

If thus it is obvious that our macro-cultural identity and economic activity owes so much to a religious tradition or culture we may not support or oddly recognise as our own, it is only understandable that those whose equivalent macro-cultural identity and economic activity has been forged against the backdrop of Islam take offence when they hear of antics like Wilders.

I shall not add any more comments on this thread.

I say Thank You to C. Murray for the second in her interesting series on "documentaries intended to provoke prejudice which not everyone watched". The last of course being this one :-

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/86647