Should Israel be held accountable for war crimes in Gaza?

by Ciaran Gallagher - Queens Socialist Society Tue Jan 20, 2009 22:11 ciaran036 at hotmail dot com

Either it was manipulated by Israelis using 'Megaphone' software to automatically vote in favour of Israel or most of the people who voted are eejits.

by Ciaran Gallagher - The Socialist Society Tue Jan 20, 2009 22:16

If I had have read the entire article before I posted a comment I would have realised that use of megaphone software has already been mentioned...

The poll has ended with 50% saying Israel must be held accountable with 47% saying Israel was only defending itself.

by tagger Tue Jan 20, 2009 22:59

Of course the Zionist state should be held accountable, and any body who feels otherwise do not live in the real world. The targeting and killing of innocent civilians, UN shelters, and International Aid body workers, the use of illegal weapons(WP) Etc, are not the actions of a disciplined army, but that of a shower of conspricted, ill disciplined, cowardly rats. However Israel feels that it is immune to be held accountable for its murderous actions, this is a changing world and the venom that has emerged towards Israel right around the Globe has been something unheard and unseen of ever before. It has finally been unmasked, the civilised World now sees it for what it is, a rouge, raceist, terrorist state, that does not have any intention of getting on with its neighbours, bully boy tactics dont last forever, the Apartheid state will crumble but they are so caught up in their deceipt, and arrogrance, they cannot see this, and like its terrorist friend the US it will implode from within and of course we who watch from the outside will be only to glad to give it a helping hand by boycotting everything that is Zionist.

Watch CH4 at 11.05 Thursday 22/1/09 Dispatches unseen footage in Gaza.

Israel get real the game is up.

by Contrarian Wed Jan 21, 2009 00:37

Each and every one of the thousands of Hamas missiles fired into Israel constitutes a war crime as it is the deliberate targeting of civilians. The timing of missile attacks between 8.30 and 9am to catch children being brought to kindergartens and schools is a particular low, even for the Islamofascist Hamas regime.

by tagger Wed Jan 21, 2009 01:28

Thousands of Hamas missiles? what missiles? I can only guess that you are refering to those home made thingys that do about as much damage as a large squib. Before I can go any further on this I have to ask you why and for what reasons were they firing these things they obviously had very good and legitimate reasons for doing so.

by Fred Johnston Wed Jan 21, 2009 01:37

Yes, there is mounting evidence that Israel should be taken to task for war crimes - but the US will never allow it to happen, and Israel knows that. Lots of noise, even some 'investigations' will be made, but the usually guff about Israel having a right to defend itself, and bombs in mosques, rockets under school desks and that sort of nonsense will be trotted out. The craven and West-dependent Arab countries will mutter and fall silent. Obediently, Europe will allow it all to fade away. The Palestinians have long since forgotten what justice tastes like and now it's a dish they don't even see on the menu.

by Contrarian Wed Jan 21, 2009 02:51

OK Tagger, lets see if I've got this right? You're unsure whether Hamas has been firing any missiles at all into Israel? But in any case. you think it's perfectly acceptable to target civilians with "home made thingys" (that can and do kill people) because they are only squibs?

And if Israel breaches international law and commits war crimes, it's "murderous actions" by "a rogue racist state and its army of ill-disciplined cowardly rats?"

But if Hamas breaches international law and commits war crimes, well that's just fine cos "they obviously had very good and legitimate reasons for doing so."

Wow! That takes the argument to a whole new plane entirely.

by Maquis Wed Jan 21, 2009 08:24

In international law, a people under foreign occupation is entitled to engage in armed resistance.

by Israel lives Wed Jan 21, 2009 08:50

Under international law, it is illegal to target civillians during the so called resistance

by hold on a minute... Wed Jan 21, 2009 08:58

In international law, a people under foreign occupation is entitled to engage in armed resistance.

True, but they cannot class all citizens of the occupying power as targets. That's acting like the IDF does, when it blew up schools in Gaza. Collective punishment is illegal, regardless of who fired first.

Firing their poorly made home-made rockets may their only futile method of trying to fight back at superior firepower, but that doesn't make it right or legal.

But, I'm not trying to shift the focus off the IDF here. They did indeed break the ceasefire, and lied about the number of rockets fired recently. (They even altered their own statistics which previously proved Hamas had all but stamped out the firing of rockets)

The IDF, and Israeli government should be up on war crimes, but we know that the big powers won't let that happen.
In the meantime, we must boycott this rogue state, and support peace-activists who are trying to bring a non-violent solution.

Hamas are already in prison, and the Israeli state loves it when they fire their puny rockets, as it gives them a chance to act like defenders of the nation, rather than the overseers of a giant concentration camp (which, by the way was a British invention, not a Nazi one. The Nazi's made them death camps)

by Dimpna Wed Jan 21, 2009 09:52

We should all start demanding from our governments that international law be enforced: no "ifs", no "buts", and no "maybes".

Otherwise, Article 6 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights -- agreed in 1948 -- will continue to be violated internationally with impunity by the tyrants, as will several other articles of the same treaty.

Article 6 of UDHR clearly states:

"Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law."

That includes all of the men, women, and children in Gaza: and there's no two ways about it.

It's well time now for all the mealy-mouthed-pussy-footing to stop, and for all the lame excuses to be swept aside and put in the dustbin.

Otherwise, we might end up being next in line for the kind of outrageous and barbaric treatment the general population of Gaza have had to put up with during the past few weeks: and by then it will be too late for us to do anything of significance to protect ourselves.

We owe this to ourselves, as well as to others.

Related link: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&fkt=3688&fsdt=20516&...f&oq=

by gazasympathiser Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:46

The Israeli army is to investigate claims it used white phosphorus illegally during its three-week offensive in Gaza.

The Americans used white phosphorus (Whiskey Pete) extensively in the battle of Fallujah and got away with it as you can see in the testimony of an American serviceman in the attached video.

Thew serviceman says that the Americans made extensive use of chemical weapons in the battle for Fallujah.

"white phosphorus proved to be a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with high explosives"

Obviously the Israelis are taking their lead from the US given they got away with already.

by redjade Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:51

See Images From Hell - Israel's Phosphorous Bombing of Palestinian School
http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2009/01/images-from-hell-isr....html

by gazasympathiser Wed Jan 21, 2009 13:04

Israel has admitted – after mounting pressure – that its troops may have used white phosphorus shells in contravention of international law, during its three-week offensive in the Gaza Strip.

Under review by Colonel Shai Alkalai is the use of white phosphorus by a reserve paratroop brigade in northern Israel.

According to army sources the brigade fired up to 20 phosphorus shells in a heavily built-up area around the Gaza township of Beit Lahiya, one of the worst hit areas of Gaza.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/21/gaza-phosph...hells

by redjade Wed Jan 21, 2009 14:29

''European attorneys have reportedly petitioned a Belgian court to arrest Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni upon her arrival in Brussels later Wednesday, according to the Jawalan.com Web Site.

The complaints was apparently lodged on behalf of Belgian and French nationals with relatives who were either wounded or killed in Gaza, and calls for Livni to be arrested for war crimes.''

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057485.html

by gazasympathiser Wed Jan 21, 2009 14:49

it sounds like the same kind of law used to arrest Pinochet.

It would definitely show them up for the war-mongering goons they are and throw their elections into disarray.

by shaun Wed Jan 21, 2009 18:19

as someone who had some sympathy for israel in the past i have to say that today i have lost all such sympathy. there can be no doubt that one day israel will pay a terrible price for its crimes against humanity.

by Miriam Wed Jan 21, 2009 21:38

Israel still denying entry to humanitarian relief:

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=83151§ionid=351020202

Now that the exciting bit is over, the more mundane form of misery inflicted by the war on Gaza is no longer of interest to mainstream media.

by George F. Ryan Thu Jan 22, 2009 14:02

Just because the majority of people don't agree with you in an RTE poll does not mean that they are Israeli agents, or part of an Israeli foreign ministry campaign. They just don't agree with you. The majority of the logic on this site is neither faultless nor always particularly clear, so I don't know why anyone would be surprised that it is not terribly convincing or persuasive to people's opinions

Of course Israel releases propaganda. Every wartime nation does. And the bulk of the articles on this site are nothing more than glib propaganda themselves. Its a classic case of the kettle calling the pot black.

by George F. Ryan Thu Jan 22, 2009 15:52

White Phosphorus is legal if used to make smoke screens or when targeting enemy combatants. Its use would only be contrary to international law if it was deliberately fired at innocent civilians, which is the same with all weapons. It is neither a chemical weapon nor a weapon of mass destruction.

by gazasympathiser Thu Jan 22, 2009 16:25

In case you are unaware Israel has already admitted that its troops may have used white phosphorus shells in contravention of international law.

This follows broad international pressure and extensive eye-witness accounts from the UN and other independent sources, photographic and physical evidence.

by George F. Ryan Thu Jan 22, 2009 19:00

I have heard that an investigation is being launched. If white phosphorus were deliberately targeting civilians and civilians alone that would be a war crime. The fact that Hamas is fighting amongst its own people makes that very difficult to prove. Indeed, if Hamas had not entrenched itself in the densely populated Gaza Strip there would have been no battle there.

However, as Amnesty International pointed out, phosphorus projectiles have been found in areas of heavy fighting.

'Last week, Human Rights Watch slammed Israel for what it alleged was the “unlawful” use of white phosphorus in its Gaza operation. HRW’s accusation has been now countered from an unlikely source.'

AP reports:

The International Red Cross said Tuesday that Israel has fired white phosphorus shells in its offensive in the Gaza Strip, but has no evidence to suggest it is being used improperly or illegally…”In some of the strikes in Gaza it’s pretty clear that phosphorus was used,” Peter Herby, head of of the organization’s mines-arms unit told The Associated Press. “But it’s not very unusual to use phosphorus to create smoke or illuminate a target. We have no evidence to suggest it’s being used in any other way.”

There seems to be at this time precious little evidence on the ground to support any conclusion of the intentional Israeli use of WP against civilians.

by gazasympathiser Fri Jan 23, 2009 08:30

The Israelis are investigating a specific unit of reservists on the basis of information they have received.

In conjunction with this they have admitted that these weapons may have been used illegally against civilians.

This comes after Ban Ki Moon the UN general secretary calling the attacks on the UN compound using White Phosphorous outrageous.

The wounded with WP burns are still in hospitals, physical evidence was seen burning all over the compound and in still photos and TV footage.

If you watch the interview with an Egyptian doctor on the Guardian's webpage you can see that WP is being used as a weapon against civilians with devastating consequences much worse than dumdum bullets.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/16/phosphorus-...-gaza

[Note to editor: please add the Guardian Unlimited to your list of sources for embedded video]

The Phosphorous enters the skin and keeps burning right down to the bone and burns in the absence of air when in contact with water which composes 55%+ of our bodies.

The doctor describes how even a small fragment causes massive devastation inside the body.

This happened on a massive scale in Gaza and on the basis of the injuries inflicted on innocent civilians sheltering in UN compounds and other civilian areas it is obvious that it was being used as a weapon rather than as a smokescreen etc.

Furthermore given that the Israelis had been training for 9 months for the operation and the fact that the mortars used to fire the rounds are GPS-guided and the coordinates of the UN compounds are known to the Israelis there can be no doubt that the targeting was deliberate.

The only question is whether these attacks were Israeli policy or Israeli paratroop rabble acting on their own racism and homicidal bigotry!

by George F. Ryan Fri Jan 23, 2009 15:59

If the Israelis carried out an intentional artillery bombardment with phosphorus munitions, or any munitions, that would be a war crime. If the civilian casualties were collateral from strikes on Hamas targets, that would not be a warcrime. As has been stated by most reports, white phosphorus munitions have been found in areas of heavy fighting. As the red cross stated, there is no reason to believe that it was used illegally.

I know what white phosphorus is and what it can do. I have seen it.

Your conclusions do not hold because these WP munitions were airburst weapons, so they their fragmentation impacts a wide area, not simply a single building. It was remarkably imprudent perhaps for the Israeli military to use WP munitions in Gaza, but it does not of itself indicate war crimes. Hamas also made prolifiic use of white phosphorus grenades near large concentrations of civilians to mask their movements from Israeli sniper teams. There is no indication that all of the civilian casualties from white phosphorus were caused by Israeli munitions, as it was quite widely used by both sides in this most recent campaign.

For you to call Israeli paratroopers, who are a highly disciplined, elite force with a high esprit de corps, and are among the best troops in the Israeli army a rabble is ridiculous. Maybe you can come back and tell us that when you have actually passed military airborne training. They were using WP without doubt, but that they committed warcrimes does not follow. To accuse troops of warcrimes is a pretty hefty charge. You need more evidence than that to make those accusations.

'Racism and homicidal bigotry'. Obviously that's just an Israeli problem. Not.

by gazasympathiser Fri Jan 23, 2009 16:51

The Secretary General of the UN accused the Israelis of using WP against civilian targets.

The Israeli authorities acknowleged that this is a possibility and are investigating paratroop reservists in connection with the presumed crimes.

Furthermore we are all too familiar with the activities of paratroops in this country with British paras murdering 13 innocent civilians in cold blood in Derry in 1972 and the subsequent cover-up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)

Rabble is as rabble does.

by George F. Ryan Fri Jan 23, 2009 20:40

The Secretary General of the U.N. is accusing Israel. You are accusing Israel. Simple accusations are meaningless.

I never categorically said that Israel did not use WP against Palestinian civilians. I said that thus far there is precious little evidence to support this.

So now all military units that are trained to deploy by jumping from airplanes are civilian murdering scum. That is an absurd, frankly retarded generalization that makes no sense whatsoever. Paratroopers are not a single murderous global entity. They are elite assault troops in their respective armies. And they are far better men who have been through far more trials than some keyboard warrior like you will ever be.

The vast majority of Israeli mortar projectiles in Gaza would not have been GPS guided. GPS guided rounds would be rare enough that they would only be used against relatively precision, high priority targets.

by Justin Morahan Sat Jan 24, 2009 03:14

To cage a population in and lock the cage as Israel did in the Gaza Strip, to decide that only minimal food and medicines were allowed in, to lie to the world that Hamas were the first to break the truce, to use this blatant lie to carry out an appalling massacre from the sky, killing 1300 men women and children and leaving thousands more injured within this locked cage, to target clearly marked UN refuge centres killing people who had fled there for safety..... the list makes me sick to recall even in part

It will take many tomes to recite Israel's crimes, a holocaust that will never be forgotten

"Israel is conducting an investigation about the use of white phosphorus". The criminals who used it and burned victim's skins with it are conducting an investigation!

All the waffle of the Israeli apologists, lined up as they are on Internet as well as mainstream media, will not obliterate the shame that the present State of Israel has brought upon itself with this heinous massacre of near defenceless human beings in the Gaza Strip in the infamous days of December 2008/January 2009.

by openeyes Sat Jan 24, 2009 15:22

I never categorically said that Israel did not use WP against Palestinian civilians. I said that thus far there is precious little evidence to support this.

Unless of course, you look for it.
There's plenty of footage showing that the Israelis fired something, that airbursted low over civilian areas, burning brightly as it fell over one of the most densely populated bits of the middle east, and photographs show the IDF shell casings with batch numbers from the Pine Bluff Arsenal's white phosphorous store.
The injuries presented at the hospitals are consistent with White Phosphorous injuries seen in Fallujah.

But as, you say. That's not really much in the way of evidence.

by dontbelievethemediapropogandaplants Wed Jan 28, 2009 17:01

The reason why isreal may never be held accountable for such war crimes,(,as is evident from the images posted all over the internet,and which cannot be argued,)BECAUSE THEY ARE STRONG TRADING PARTNERS IN THE U.S AND EUROPE,BOYCOTTING ALL ISREAL SOURCED PRODUCE IS THE ONLY WAY FORWARD,and,it is clear the palestinian people in this photograph are obviously civilians,and even if they were members of hamas(the oppressed people of palestine have NOWHERE ELSE TO TURN LIKE IT OR NOT!!) or of another such organisation,it is still a war crime.Since the birth of isreal the people of this nation were massacred and victimised in ways most people in modern day europe cannot even comprehend.

by George F. Ryan Fri Jan 30, 2009 01:11

You're quite right. There is not a great deal in the way of evidence. Hamas entrenched itself in one of the most densely populated areas in the Middle East. The sight of WP shells exploding and that some civilians were impacted does not indicate that the Israelis deliberately targeted civilians. It merely indicates that Israel used White Phosphorus on an urban battlefield. You have no proof that they were not solely used on strikes against Hamas fighters.

Note: White Phosphorus and DIME munitions are not weapons of mass destruction.

by Vincent Fri Jan 30, 2009 16:29

An Israeli Minister of Irish decent presided over a shameful PR Stunt involving the wounded victims of the Gaza bombardment.

Minister Izaac Herzog, grandson of Irelands first chief Rabbi Isaac Herzog's and son of Chaim Herzog, who was a general in the Israel Defense Forces and later became president of Israel, was appointed two weeks ago by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to coordinate humanitarian aid to Gaza.
In a much hyped fanfare, an emergency clinic was opened beside Gaza to treat some of the 5500 wounded in the precedeing bombing blitz aimed at crushing the people of the Gaza Strip into submission to the occupation.

The Stunt was launched with the claim that the " original purpose of the clinic, according to press releases, was to provide emergency care and evacuate those needing further care to hospitals in Israel. " The clinic was very well equipped but unfortunately only treated 5 people before being dismantled quietly once the media interest disipated.

" Foreign press and aid workers said the clinic was merely a publicity stunt. Scores of journalists were invited to its opening day.
A volunteer nurse at the clinic, who preferred anonymity, said: "It is an extremely well-equipped clinic. We are able to treat a wide selection of medical conditions; it is a pity that only five patients benefitted from our services." "

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10260.shtml