"Serious consequences" for demonstrators outside Israeli Embassy

by Mike Novack Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:58

"I believe it is now up to Irish citizens to display their contempt for that state and their disgust at the Irish state's complicity with it by demonstrating outside the Israeli Embassy every day until the Israeli Ambassador is expelled."

Need to decide WHAT is the objective of a demonstration as that is important in determining where you demonstrate.

To protest the actions of the Israelis by all means protest outside the Israeli embassy. But understand that for Irish security forces to protect that embassy is NOT "complicity" with the Israelis but an absolute obligation as long as you Irish choose to have diplomatic relations with Israel.

To advocate a change in that ststus, wanting the Israeli embassador expelled, the Israeli embassy is simply the wrong place to protest. The Israelis have NOTHING to do with decisions that are entirely up to the Irish people and their government. It is outside your own government you need to demand "break off ties with Israel".

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:11

Surprise,surprise.Well the velvet gloves are not working so they have to remind us they are in control of the situation.Evrony wont be given the flea in the ear in a hurry.Uncle Sam would not be happy.They are hoping the media will do its usual next drama please,we need fresh 'stories'.The Irish involvement in the flotilla has woken the most unexpected interest.Its being broached as a topic where the usual coversation is footy.Not what our masters need,what with all their self-induced economic headaches.I'm a too far beyond the Pale at the minit,but my placard would read

NOT KOSHER

The term has a meaning beyond the culinary,that might not be lost on a Jewish viewer,ultimately the ones who will shift Likud.Shalom.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:31

There probably is nobody home anyway.Evrony is probably doing the rounds of the usual suspects trying to plaster over the cracks of their disasterous ten days of PR self-sabotage.You are right.Martin should be given the choice.We dont need a voluntary leavetaking.We need a retaliatory expulsion for their crimes against our diplomatic status,our shipping on the high seas, and our citizens engaged on humanitarian relief work.Or Martin's exit.But changing the focus remains a decision for those on the ground.Plus,the media might not ignore it if the anger is taken to Ivy House.At the end of the day,in their terms,Evrony is doing an exemplary job of representing his country's interests.It is Martin who is betraying his ministerial responsibilities.I would think you are right.

by Noel Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:34

You are a bunch of drama queens. Life goes and you should all get a life. Every time you are challenged you cry foul play.

You do not represent Irish opinion in general and therefore do not have special rights to do as you wish.

I am yet to witness the Garda manhandling anyone bar those who try prevent them performing their duties. You should be appreciative of the way they do go about their duties and quit looking to blame everyone because you are not getting your way.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:50

Real sorry.You are right.You,of course,on the contrary,do represent Irish opinion in general.So we will do as you say and accept the abuse of our passport protection rights of our citizens,etc.That was a handy referendum.How did you manage it so quick?A dig out from the Mossies?

by Bazooka Joe Tue Jun 08, 2010 13:32

What are 'Mossies'?

by Democracy Tue Jun 08, 2010 13:37

Why doesn't the Irish government have a referendum and ask:

"Shall we keep economic and diplomatic ties with Israel? - Yes or No?"

I get the feeling the vast majority of the Irish would send the criminals home tomorrow. By "home" I mean the land they robbed from the Palestinians.

by Conor Tue Jun 08, 2010 13:46

''You do not represent Irish opinion in general and therefore do not have special rights to do as you wish''

I don't think there are any special rights involved here Noel, just the right to protest, . You know, democracy and all that..

Also, you may have noticed that every political party (however measly) publicly denounced the passport abuse and the killing of civilians and warned Israel against attacking the flotilla [It would be appropriate to point out that all these international calls for 'this, that and the other' are futile. Action in the form of the expulsion of the Israeli ambassador, divestments, boycott and sanctions, are our tools. And it is not going to begin at establishment level] Also, I will re-iterate opus diablos's point about the passports. The passport abuse alone is enough to call for expulsion until investigated.

I don't think your finger is on the pulse of Ireland Noel, if you think that the majority of people are not angry about this. Not to mention open, and growing calls for boycott.

If you ask any person walking in any city in Ireland, the majority of them will probably express solidarity with the aid flotilla and grief with the dead and injured in the attack. The growing movement of Irish solidarity with Palestine across the island is not coming from nowhere Noel.

Thanks for documenting this Raymond. Any abuse is wrong and should be documented

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''I am yet to witness the Garda manhandling anyone bar those who try prevent them performing their duties''

Are you talking about the last few weeks, or just in general? If in general, I would avert to your eyes to the west of Ireland.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Jun 08, 2010 13:57

http://vimeo.com/8668733 I hope I typed that correctly.Check it out for a glance at the local siege and disposess manifestations.

by Eric Tue Jun 08, 2010 13:59

I assume you are referring the Shell oil to sea protest.
The right to peaceful protest does not include the right to disrupt the rights of others to go about their daily activities. Those protestors infringed on the rights of others to go about their business and were dealt with by the Gardai, according to the powers vested in them by the State, to maintain law and order. What more can be asked for in order to maintain a democracy!

by eye spy Tue Jun 08, 2010 14:14

at the march to the embassy last week there was a branch car faceing the march with a dark gentleman sitting in the frount seat. maybe he was a garda but would guess he was isreali, seeing who was on the march. would say there is probably alot of co operation between the two states.

by Fred Johnston Tue Jun 08, 2010 14:25

Cowen is 'way out of his depth and the 'phone bill from the Israeli Embassy must be immense by now. Calls no doubt were also made to RTE, as the entire past week has vanished from the News At One and 'Liveline' was seemingly 'warned off' from the day of the attack. The Irish Times posts no more letters about the attacks or reactions to the Israelis. There is no democracy in Ireland, as we know from the banks' scandals and so on, so we can't expect our top - I refer to rank here only! - politicians to stand up for us. They simply don't know how. They would also be terrified of receiving a rap on the knuckles from Uncle Sam: remember the United States now has a President who is so obviously towing the Israeli line that he makes Dubya look like Arafat. (He has promised to 'kick ass,' however (his term) over the oil spill.) So pity poor Brian Cowen from the windy wilds of the Irish midlands fretting and sweating over whether to defend the dignity of the Irish people or offend the Israelis! No contest! I no longer think it's even a question of moral cowardice with him and Martin: they simply cannot play in the greater political schoolyard. So the Israelis laugh at them. And remember that it's not just down to Cowen: whereas John Berger and 30 eminent Britsh writers (and elsewhere, Iain Banks and Alice Walker) can all write articles, letters and protest in their own way against the Israeli terror and even call for cultural boycotts, not a line, save Richard Tillinghast's fine poem, has appeared from any Irish writer or writers' organisation in this country protesting against the Israeli action.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Jun 08, 2010 14:33

And there's no business like the oil business and the show must go on.Look into the Mexican Gulf,Eric, for the consequences of BP democracy.
Never mind the pollution hazards of the roughshod Shell game,scientists are predicting that residues of the blowout off Louisiana will be picked up by the Gulf Stream.You can find oil residues on Western Irish beaches from years of tankers flushing their tanks at sea.All legal and democratic like.Its business pursuing its innocent bottom line.With a little help from its democratic friends.As were the Bush/Cheyney wars still burning away in the long ago and far away.
'.....to maintain law and order.What more can be asked for in order to maintain a democracy'?

Well we are allowed,are we not,to ask just whose law and whose order and how does it pertain to our children's welfare.That is the democratic question being answered with jail sentences for the questioners,even as the courts reveal in seperate judgements that Shell has being playing disinformation wars to beat the band.Check and see if I gave that site properly.If not just google shelltosea.com

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Jun 08, 2010 14:41

hey,Fred,we're all writers now.Oh and,Bazooka,see eye spy above for elucidation on the Mossies.

by old codger - pensioner Tue Jun 08, 2010 15:24

I have a strong suspicion that you are Garda trolls. For any ordinary person to issue statements like yours without actual knowledge of what has been happening for quite some time in Erris and other places would be hard to believe.
This country has for decades been under the controll of Fianna Fail and they controll every facet of the state and that includes the Gardai who have been trained in thugery for the last 3 years.
Along with the private security company IRMS with whom they collaborate they serve the needs of Fianna Fail NOT THE PEOPLE .
We should be under no illusions that the government are going to do anything about Israeli atrocities no more than the Americans who's citizens have been maimed and killed by the zionists
The EU countries that have armament industries need warmongers like Israel to sell their arms to and would not take kindly to upstarts in Ireland interfearing with their trade and upsetting their collaboration with the American zionist lobby.
Brian Cowen has sold his soul to vested interests in the EU and america and whether we like it or not ireland's soul has been sold as well without the consent of the public.

by Raymond Deane Tue Jun 08, 2010 15:55

I have subsequently learned from Derek Graham (crew member of the Rachel Corrie, so he knows his onions) that the ship is NOT flagged in Ireland. I could and should have just written "Irish ship". This doesn't affect the substantive issue.

As for some of these comments:

I think it's pretty obvious that I was referring to Irish government complicity, and not that of the Gardai. Because the failure of the Irish government either to recall the Irish Ambassador or to expel the Israeli one, the Israeli Embassy is indeed "the right place" to protest against government complicity. So is Dail Eireann. So is the Dept of Foreign Affairs. So is the EU Office in Molesworth St (even if DeRossa is in residence). This criticism is just a disguised plea for demobilisation.

As for Jesus, I thought he was a Palestinian. He was certainly from Palestine.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Jun 08, 2010 15:57

I couldn't get past that 'beacon of western civilisation bit'.Well I suppose by US standards they are like the settlers in the Old West keeping Fort Zion wagons circled against the heathen native Americans who just wanted to keep their land from the gold-rushers(now its oil-gushers).
Western civilisation?Cast Lead?Well OK if its wild western YeeHaw Bush wars against bow and arrow technology with high tech state of the art firepower where the Winchester is replaced with F-16s.Yup John Wayne would approve.
I did get to the 'never again' bit.Does that mean its OK to run master race programs,land confiscations,concentration camp(reservations anyone) conditions for collective punishment,terrorist hits using third party forged documentation,high-seas abduction,murder,confiscation(piracy)etc so long as you dont run up that nasty discredited swastika.Oh and the coal scuttle helmets are cute.No I wont be going back to finish your filler.

by Noel Tue Jun 08, 2010 16:00

I am not a garda, have no friends who are gardai, but do have respect for them, not as what appears to be in your case! I do respect democracy. Elections reflect the will of the people by indicating who has the mandate to govern and legislate to ensure order in civil society. The garda are civil servants, tasked with the responsibilty to apply the law as demanded by a democratic society - not the will of a few who believe otherwise or perceive that they may have a mandate. If you feel you can challenge this, do it through the ballot box. In the interm, we as responsible citizens need to uphold the rule of law and respect the civil servants we have tasked to implement it.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Jun 08, 2010 16:15

Thats me hypocrite bit.Just went back for a quick scan and took in your finale.About that surrounding sea of failed states and dictatorial religious fanatics and primitive monarchies in the 21st century.Is it not the US that suckled the Saudi monarchy with arms for oil,source of the Wahabbi Islam that produced the bin Laden strain of virulence that unleashed 9/11 among other blowbacks?Was not the Jordanian monarchy propped up(Hussein a signed up CIA stooge as surely as the reluctant Shah)as were so many reactionary regimes from Chile under Pinochet to Indonesia under the murderous Suharto?Before you go pro blogging this side,read a little of your own history.Who knows,you might even catch a little of that slippery western civilisation you purport to admire.Have a nice day.Oh and Shalom.

by Cynic. Tue Jun 08, 2010 16:29

Those petty 11th century type regimes existed long before the USA was invented Opus.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Jun 08, 2010 16:30

Appreciate the feedback.Agree any protest is in the right place.But given the (wo)manpower on the ground,and my point that Evrony is 'just obeying orders' and rather satisfactorily for his masters,would concentration on the lameness of Martin's behaviour not be best focus for removal of the offender?We dont want him to get the hint and self exit.We want Martin to fulfil his ministerial reponsibilities or go.Fully support your action,but am not in any way pleading for demobilisation.Rather,for more effective deployment.As I said I'm not on the ground at the moment,its your call.

by Conor Tue Jun 08, 2010 16:39

Talking about respecting democracy in 21st century Ireland should be in a thread of its own. Applying the law is not the same as upholding laws in a civil society.

If we truly want to respect democracy. Then the will of the people should be heard. In this case, the Palestinians living inside the apartheid state have no voice, no future, no freedom, no equality and no protection. Considering Ireland is one of the freest democracies in the world, we not only have a right to protest the siege of Gaza, we hold the responsibility. And we have the DEMOCRATIC RIGHT and OBLIGATION to interfere with the apartheid state considering its involvement in the Irish passport scam, or the murders... the thousands of them, the blockade, the war crimes, the internments, the endless human rights abuses .

The responsibility of the state to protect its citizens is another issue. Applying the law unlawfully is not the same as upholding laws in a civil society. I have had plenty of brushes with the Gardaí. I have been unlawfully stopped, held, searched etc etc. Just form my own experiences of being subjected to abuse by the Gardaí (breaching my civil rights - which I found very serious), I can only imagine how they act towards towards political dissidents. 'You measure a democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists'

Laws are not written up by politicians, just enacted. There is a perceivably complicated legal system at work, and there are professionals in legalese out there who fit the bill. Powerful lobbing groups have tainted our (they're?) legal, political and policing systems. So lets not talk about standing up for democracy. Your standing up for plutocracy.

Voting for a handful of Irish dynasties or otherwise to take the reins of the (controlled) ''free-market'' economy every five years is our democracy. And I wont sit back like a coward and accept that this is the way life should be. So you go and vote every few years and do nothing else, and then come on here and try to espouse Democratic values to us.

by steve Tue Jun 08, 2010 16:58

Irish people protest for an entity-Hamas- where protest is punishable by DEATH, against one of the freest democracies in the world-yes ISRAEL- where Arab Palestinians are free not only to demonstrate, but seat in
the Kneset and demonize with impunity the hand that feeds them, the Israeli state.
I wonder about the logic of the Irish-if indeed the mejority of them supports Hamas, would they accept themselves to live under such a regime, and /or support them?
From the article, it doesn't seem to me to be the case.

by old codger - pensioner Tue Jun 08, 2010 17:25

Would your opinion on upholding the law apply to international law? if so then why is the government denying the right of Irish citizens to international law Namely the UN Aarhus convention to which we are signed and are the only one of 82 countries that have not ratified it?
It is very easy to adopt noble opinions and ignore the suffering of your own countrymen and women in Erris without knowing the true facts
FIANNA FAIL MAKE DEALS WITH OIL COMPANIES THEY APPOINT IRISH JUDGES AND TOP GARDAI WHO ORDER THE ORDINARY GARDAI TO ADOPT VIOLENCE AGAINST PEACEFULL PROTESTERSI WHO ARE THEN SENT TO PRISON BY FIANNA FAIL JUDGES and you think you are living in a democracy.
The people have every right to fight against corruption and for the sake of the people of Palestine and Ireland i hope they do.

by Noel Tue Jun 08, 2010 17:41

You have chosen to go off on a tangent from my initial posting so I will respond to you accordingly.

In the one sentence you say we have one of the freest democracies in the world and in the last paragraph you criticise it as not being good enough - some people are hard to please!

The Hamas organisation is a good fit for your views and that is probably why you associate with them and their likes.
I have an understanding for the position of Israel, knowing the objectives of the Hamas terrorists. They are definitely not humanitarians, still refusing to accept the aid you collected and made available to them.

Once they recognise the right of Israel to exist and release Gilead Shalit there will be room to negotiate peace. Is that too difficult for them to bring about?

But this warrants a thread of its own

I stand by my views on the gardai who fulfill their duties very well under difficult and trying conditions - any other employee of the state would not tolerate such abuse as the activists target at them!

by steve Tue Jun 08, 2010 17:44

What state are you talking about? If you talk about Israel then you are absolutely ignorant of the most basic facts. The arab sector-20% of Israels' population-is thriving, and benefits from all the hard work of the israeli Jews, who carry the weight of their high birth rate,bigotry and backwardness.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Jun 08, 2010 18:38

'....carry the weight of their high birth rate,bigotry and backwardness.'Man that is the very sweetest little golden goose-step I've seen since that summer evening back in,lemme think, 1970 when they arrested me in the Orange Free State.Surely not the same steve?

by Filament Tue Jun 08, 2010 19:10

Hey Raymond Deane, check your facts. Jesus was not a Palestinian. You will not find any mention of the name "Palestine" in the Bible text (old or new Testement). You will however find "Israel". Jesus was therefore an Israeli Jew. The name Palestine only came into being 100 years after Jesus death. Shalom.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Jun 08, 2010 19:32

I understood Palestinian was the modern rendering of Philistine,a tribe from the Northern Phoenician coast that predates the Jewish settling by 500 years.Hence their bad-mouthing in the bible.Its the first resort of the coloniser.Number 1:-Dehumanise your indigenous population in order to facilitate their extermination without inducing guilt in your own popularion..

by Filament Tue Jun 08, 2010 19:49

Indeed the name Palestine is derived from Philistine but that's as far as it goes. The Philistines disappeared 3000 years ago and were not Arab or even Semetic. There is no connection between Philistines and Palastinians.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Jun 08, 2010 20:03

I take it you were there yourself,holding the hand of the final, expiring Phbilistine.Left the land nice and conveniently empty.Its an ill wind,eh?Mighty research.Jerusalem archives?

by Filament Tue Jun 08, 2010 20:08

Try research. As for bad mouthing Philistines in the Bible, the Jews are also bad mouthed in the Bible (old testement). Strange behaviour for writers to bad mouth themselves. You won't find that happening in other religions Holy Books.

by MickNEd Tue Jun 08, 2010 20:09

The Philistines were one of the "Sea People" , a group of unconnected people who are mentioned by the Egyptians in the thirteenth century BC They appear at a time of collapse for many mediterranean based civilizations , whether they were the cause or the effect is not known. They were a bit like Bronze Age vikings and moved en masse to new lands.

Pottery styles show strong links with Mycenaean Greece, from where it is surmised, without firm evidence that they originated..

They are named as pulsati by the Egyptians, and settled down in the region, Gaza was one of the cities they founded as was Ashdod.

by Break diplomatic ties with rogue state Israel Tue Jun 08, 2010 20:22

Gardaí try to break up Gaza blockade protest
Read more: http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/gardai-try-to-break-up-g....html

Around 40 members of the Anti-War movement are protesting outside the Israeli Embassy in Dublin this morning.

The group is calling on the Government to sever diplomatic ties with Israel.

Nine people were killed last week after Israeli forces attacked a flotilla of ships which was en route to Gaza with aid.

Spokesperson for the Anti-War movement Richard Boyd Barrett has said they have no choice but to protest.

He said gardaí have tried to push protestors away from the entrance of the Israeli embassy in Ballsbridge this morning as they mounted the protest.

The protest continues on the road in front of the embassy.

Claudia Saba, Palestinian member of the IAWM steering committee, said: "It is just disgraceful that the Gardaí would try to prevent us from protesting in a peaceful manner.

"They are protecting the embassy of a government who has just days ago murdered humanitarian workers in international waters and who blockaded an Irish ship and imprisoned Irish activists before deporting them."

Gardaí try to break up Gaza blockade protest

by jim Tue Jun 08, 2010 21:13

i dont understand why protesters dont obey the law when carrying out protests, you cant block entrances you cant tell ppl you wont let them go to work, and announcing you are blockading an embassy in response to israel doing the same weakens your argument and puts you in same boat as them, if you want to prey on peoples sympathy why not obey the law and carry out you protest in legal manner.

instead your idea is break the law to make a point!
by your actions today you allowed rte to report that protesters were removed for attempting to block embassy which is an offence and you give gardai powers to have you removed under public order act, road traffic act and also the geneva convention covers the rights of embassy staff to access there embassies... try boxing clever and obeying the law in the long run it would paint a better picture of your protesters as law abiding citizens for change and not just anarchists who like to get in the media every now and again

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Jun 08, 2010 21:34

but its not about sympathy.Its about justice for the palestinian people in the name of a young girl who was deliberately crushed under the blade of a bulldozer because she opposed IDF evictions of families from their homes.That is the law we resist.They own it.The make it and they break it to suit their changing purposes, and if there isnt one on the statute book to keep you from trying to resist legally, why relax, there wil be another one along in a minit ,tailored to order. As far as they are concerned Geneva is just another anagram of avenge.But, you being a clever boxer,coach us with a strategy you would approve of.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Jun 08, 2010 21:39

Now that they have usurped our sovreignty,we are outlaws anyway.Rapparees aris.

by Seasick Steve Wed Jun 09, 2010 09:52

I actually agree with the zionist trolls such as Novak and Noel.

Protesting outside the embassy is bloody useless.

It also gives the gardai an excuse to take out their frustrations with the government on the left as they have done so often in the past.

Funny how the hasbaraniks dissappeared last week though in the sea of blood that was the Mavi Marmara massacre.

I guess even they can't excuse the inexcuseable barbarity of the most "moral" army in the world from the only "democracy" in the middle east ;)

Time would be much better spent protesting outside the Dail where we can also have a go at our pathetic excuse for politicians and government.

And also outside all shops such as M&S, Tesco and Lidl, stocking Israeli products, encouraging shoppers not to buy Israeli products.

Remember, the boycott begins at home!

by old codger - pensioner Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:23

I don;t know what it will take to enlighten some of the naieve opinions from posters like Jim and noel. They can not seem to comprehend that every facet of this state is under control of FiannaFail and that includes RTE JIm. They will report only what the government wants them to.What have you learned from RTE about Pat o Donnell and Niall Hartnet Innocent men serving Jail sentences for protesting peacefully.
When people protest by blocking the Israeli embassy how can that compare to a murderous state killing helpless people continuosly,then covering their crimes with lies. The activists on the flottila were unarmed peacefull humanitarian people and were murdered by the Israeli state just like innocent palestinian people are being murdered every day. How can you even compare this to a few honest decent human beings blocking the embassy?
I would like to sugest to those that post opinions on this and other political sites that you do your own research on the topic not rely on propaganda spewed out on the governments bidding.Though your opinion is understood for its noble intent some of us have learned the hard way that things are not as they seem in good old Ireland.
We should not have to stand outside this embassy because it should be closed and the liars deported to their murderous base. When our government continues buy arms and bullets from Israel they just continue to fool the Irish people, Why does RTE not report this?.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Wed Jun 09, 2010 13:27

FF have had the bones of a century to get their place (wo)men throughout our public service,from the echelons of parasites in the health services to wherever the pork can be dispensed. RTE mic-jockeys dont get their obscene salaries for rocking the national boat which FF consider their own, just as the Marcos's Phillipines was unquestionable.We are dealing with something more akin to Francoism than republicanism of any validity. Advertisers and licence fees(with regular govt reviews) do the rest.

by Antinbhearmor - Human Race Mon Jun 14, 2010 21:05

Why doesnt it surprise me that Irish politicians dont support their own and back a foreign tyranny ? As with the Israeli bullies, the Irish government are acting in the same way as any victim of bullying. They become bullies.At risk of tarring everyone with the same brush, Whole nations have been victims throujhout history and more often than not look for someone weaker to victimise. That is why we who have a small voice, must make it more combined and heard more often in louder shouts and action, but always in a non-provocative manner.I will always advocate civil disobedience without response to police and govt. violence. However, it seems to me that the members of this government can still be shamed in public and should be in their own back yards.