We want him out! He represents a state that is conducting a slaughter

by tagger Thu Jan 15, 2009 02:20

Execllent piece of work, very informative, gazasympathiser needs to be commended.

Any more info appreciated.

Idea: Maybe draft letter put up here for copy, etc, to Minister of Foreign affairs or Biffo that could be e-mailed or by snail mail, or even to EU.
Slan.

by gazasympathiser (1) Thu Jan 15, 2009 09:30

This weekend in both the Guardian newspaper and The Nation newspaper, Jewish author Naomi Klein (NoLogo, Shock Doctrine) wrote: 'The best strategy to end the increasingly bloody occupation is for Israel to become the target of the kind of global movement that put an end to apartheid in South Africa.'

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0112/israelboycott.html

The relevance of the South African model is that it proves BDS tactics can be effective when weaker measures (protests, petitions, backroom lobbying) fail. And there are deeply distressing echoes of apartheid in the occupied territories: the colour-coded IDs and travel permits, the bulldozed homes and forced displacement, the settler-only roads. Ronnie Kasrils, a prominent South African politician, said the architecture of segregation he saw in the West Bank and Gaza was "infinitely worse than apartheid". That was in 2007, before Israel began its full-scale war against the open-air prison that is Gaza.

Why single out Israel when the US, Britain and other western countries do the same things in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Boycott is not a dogma; it is a tactic. The reason the strategy should be tried is practical: in a country so small and trade-dependent, it could actually work.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/10/nao...srael

Several days into Israel's Gaza assault, Richard Ramsey, managing director of a British telecom specialising in voice-over-internet services, sent an email to the Israeli tech firm MobileMax: "As a result of the Israeli government action in the last few days we will no longer be in a position to consider doing business with yourself or any other Israeli company."

Ramsey says his decision wasn't political; he just didn't want to lose customers. "We can't afford to lose any of our clients," he explains, "so it was purely commercially defensive."

It was this kind of cold business calculation that led many companies to pull out of South Africa two decades ago. And it's precisely the kind of calculation that is our most realistic hope of bringing justice, so long denied, to Palestine.

by Coilín Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:35

The Irish Times reported on a most unfortunate and outrageously comical comment made by the Israeli ambassador at (or after?) the hearing in the Oireachtas on Tuesday:
---
The ambassador said Ireland was lucky in its neighbours – the Atlantic Ocean and the Irish Sea.
“Guess what? We live in a different neighbourhood,” he said.
He said Ireland had never had to fight an outside enemy or use force.
---

Israeli envoy condemns TD's 'outrageous' Goebbels remark
http://tinyurl.com/95vtff

by answer to comment 2 above Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:45

Al Jazeera ticker is reporting on top of their english language website that a hospital with 500 people in it is being / has been shelled by the IDF.

How do you help both sides in that situation? Give Hamas Rocket Launchers and the Israelis moral cover perthaps? That'd really help.

by How do you help Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:52

Do you help both sides by giving the UN heatseeker missiles so they can defend their right to give humanitarian aid to civilians, and giving Israel moral cover for this fascistic obscenity?

Al Jazeera reported shelling of UN head office with white phosporus 15 minutes ago.

What do you think the all party committee that Zion Evorny is about to meet should to him about that? Should they help both sides by sympathising with John Ging and his staff who are now IDF targets, and by ignoring the issue when they meet Zion Evorny and reamining content to blabber on with prepared statements about EU-Israel treaties which are off the international agenda at present?

by dunk Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:32

Venezuala has done it, yesterday Bolivia did it, now its up to Ireland to stand up for justice.
Jordan have called their envoy back, UK is talking about expulsion too.

Contrary to what many still think, due to Israel mis-information, these are the facts

1 - A massacre is being carried out in Gaza
2 - Israel broke the cease fire
3- Hamas are willing to agree on 2 state solution along 1967 borders
4 - Israel is using illegal war fare techniques
5 - Israel is blocking independant media into to Gaza to confirm critical issues

To back up these claims, as already done, view other IMC-IE thread:
Irish Protests Against Israeli Attacks on Gaza Escalate
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/90363

This form of call for expulsion is a form of diplomatic boycott, it can work, and, inshallah, it will work!

Venezuela expelled the Israeli ambassador and part of his staff in Caracas to show its condemnation of the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip.http://www.laht.comhttp://www.laht.com/article.asp?Arti...10718

Click here to read the Official Communique from the Foreign Ministry.
http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=324813&Catego...10717

Government TD calls for Expulsion of Israeli Ambassador : IPSC should do same.
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/90435
Andrews calls for expulsion of Israeli Ambassador to Ireland
http://www.chrisandrews.ie/content.php4?area=126&item=850

Jordan recalls it's ambassador to Israel in protest of Gaza op.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3653588,00.html

Former Labour Cabinet Minister Tony Benn said the Israeli Ambassador to the UK should be expelled.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/feedarticle/8218932

HEY HEY !!
HO HO !!

Zion
Evrony

Has Got To Go !!!

HEY HEY !!
HO HO !!

HEY HEY !! HO HO !! Zion Evrony Has Got To Go !!! HEY HEY !! HO HO !!

Venezuala has expelled Israeli Ambassador

Jordan recalls it's ambassador to Israel

Bolivia has expelled Israeli Ambassador

Ireland: call for Expulsion of Israeli Ambassador

by free gaza Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:14

Do you give the Israelis moral cover and give the Dignity torpedos to even things up?

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Thursday, 15 January 2009 09:26
Written by Free Gaza Movement

www.FreeGaza.org

For more information, please contact:

(Cyprus) Lubna Masarwa, +357 97 625 828

(Cyprus) Mary Hughes, +357 99 081 767

(Gaza) Ewa Jasiewicz, +972 598 700 497

(Mediterranean Sea, 15 January 2009) - The Israeli navy today threatened to kill unarmed civilians aboard a mercy ship on its way to deliver medical supplies and doctors to besieged Gaza.

The Free Gaza Movement ship, SPIRIT OF HUMANITY, left Cyprus Wednesday morning carrying doctors, journalists, human rights workers, and parliamentarians. The ship also carried over a ton of desperately needed medicines donated by the European Campaign to Break the Siege, and intended for overwhelmed hospitals in the Gaza Strip. At the request of the ship's organizers the passenger list and manifest were publicly released, and Cypriot authorities searched the boat prior to its departure in order to certify that it only carried humanitarian items. The organizers also sent an official notification to the Israeli government of their intent to break through the blockade of Gaza.

At roughly 3am UST (1am GMT), in international waters 100 miles off the coast of Gaza, at least five Israeli gunboats surrounded the SPIRIT OF HUMANITY and began recklessly cutting in front of the slow-moving civilian craft. The Israeli warships radioed the SPIRIT, demanding that the ship turn around or they would open fire and "shoot." When asked if the Israeli navy was acknowledging that they intended to commit a war crime by deliberately firing on unarmed civilians, the warships replied that they were prepared to use "any means" to stop the ship.

An earlier attempt by Free Gaza to deliver doctors and medical supplies ended on 30 December when Israeli gunboats deliberately and repeatedly rammed the DIGNITY, almost sinking that ship. Rather than endanger the lives of its passengers, the SPIRIT is now returning to Cyprus.

Israel's reckless and shocking threats against an unarmed ship on a mission of mercy are a violation of both international maritime law and the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, which states that "the high seas should be reserved for peaceful purposes."

CALL the Israeli Government and demand that it immediately STOP attacking the civilian population of Gaza and STOP using violence to prevent human rights and humanitarian assistance to the Palestinian people.

Mark Regev in the Prime Minister's office:

+972 2670 5354 or +972 5 0620 3264

by bds Thu Jan 15, 2009 13:37

BDS stands for Boycott, Divest, Sanction. More info at link

by redjade Thu Jan 15, 2009 13:50

The European Union Humanitarian Aid Commissioner Louis Michel on Tuesday said that Israel is not respecting international human rights law in the Gaza Strip. [....]

He emphasized that: "International humanitarian law is not made for peace time and is done for the war. The first requirement is that the foundation is an occupying power has an obligation to safeguard people's lives, protect, feed and care for them. This is obviously not. From my point of view, it is tragic and I cannot accept it."

by Alan Lonergan Thu Jan 15, 2009 14:08

I support the call to expel the Israeli Ambassador. Email our government now! Keep the pressure on today and every day. Do it now!

by dunk Thu Jan 15, 2009 14:17

Great to see this is taking call is taking off, it might be the most important thing we do, or can do, to bring about an end to this massacre!

Is there a link to view all names of signatories of the letter, if not can they be posted here, is there a space or tek tool to allow for more people to sign up to this call.

Can we get more updates, if people know of them, of other countries where pressure is mounting in a similar way for expulsion of that countries Israeli embassador, or of call for recall of their embassador from Israel. As im getting news in im updating post re Gaza with the flags of countries where I know things are happening...

by nb Thu Jan 15, 2009 15:46

From an older thread

by Greg - IPSC (personal capacity) Thu Jan 15, 2009 15:16

He(the Israeli Ambassador) is also addressing Dublin City Council tomorrow at 11.30am tomorrow (Friday 15th) from what I've heard.

by tagger Thu Jan 15, 2009 15:53

I also support the call to expel the Israeli Ambassador Immediately,

Ireland is a civil society that believes in the sancity of life.
Human rights,

We are not aggressors,

We are not liars,

We are not a rouge state

We do not commit war crimes.

We abide by International laws, and I could go on, and on.

The fact of the matter is that Israel does NOT believe in or abide by any of those, the Irish Government has to send him back to where he belongs, our Country will not be complicit, or must not be allowed to participate in the genocide of the Palestinians, and if they fail to do this well we will have to let them know our feelings on this.

by Steodonn Thu Jan 15, 2009 16:03

Trough him in jail for human rights abuses

by Act Now Thu Jan 15, 2009 16:10

Any Facebook users please join this cause and ask all your friends to do same.

by sickened Thu Jan 15, 2009 16:18

How do you help both sides in that situation - give one side absolution because it is a technoscientific state - and give those families who their snipers are shooting at guns and armour to defend themselves as they make their way to the hospitals.

This is sick - throw him out.

Israeli snipers are shooting at families who are attempting to seek refuge in Al-Quds hospital, Gaza City. Palestinian and international volunteers are now on the streets outside the hospital to try and get the families inside the hospital.

Australian Human Rights Activist Sharon Lock is assisting medical teams at the hospital,

Israeli snipers are shooting at families attempting to get to the hospital. They are frightened and have no where to go. At least two families have been shot at now, children have been wounded.

Al-Quds hospital, Gaza City, located in the Tel al Huwa neighbourhood of Gaza, has been under attack by the Israeli army since 1:30 AM. According to International volunteers at the hospital it has been hit by shells four times.

“The hospital has received over 150 calls for help from people including many children in the surrounding area who have been wounded and are in desperate need of medical care. The Israeli army has surrounded the hospital and no one is able to get in or out.” – Sharon Lock (Australia) International Solidarity Movement

No one is able to get to these children.

by Miriam Thu Jan 15, 2009 17:14

If I read one more editorial, opinion piece, report or letter in the media which alleges that Israel was 'provoked' into this attack I'm going to sptaneously combust.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story....1.asp

Response:

"Dear Sir
Your editorial about Israel in today's newspaper defies belief.

It's completely untrue to say that Israel was 'provoked' into this
war, though that has been it's shrill claim, repeated unquestiningly
in much of the mainstream media. If nothing else, your editorial
writer might have noticed the numerous letters and contributions in
the pages of the Irish Examiner which have given sepcific, verifiable
details that prove it was Israel that provoked this situation by
killing 6 Hamas people during a ceasefire on 4th November last. More
than that, Israel had reneged on its own promise to ease the blocade
during the ceasefire thereby causing enormous resentment within Gaza.
How can Israel's false claims still be circulating when one of Ehud
Olmert's most senior spokespeople, Mark Regev, has admitted on
television (More 4 News) that Israel knew Hamas had not broken the
ceasefire and had done all it could to prevent small resistance groups
from launching rockets, despite the increasing anger at the continuing
blocade. The text of the intelligence reports which state these
things categorically and which the Israeli government had in its
possession before their attack on Gaza on 4th November are in the
public domain. Any commentator has by now no excuse no knowing these
things.

More than 330 children at least are dead - that's more than a third of
all the casualties. Courtrooms, schools, mosques, police stations and
all the civil insfrastructure has been shredded. An estimated 5-10K
homes have been razed which gives the lie to any idea that Israel is
'targetting Hamas'. Given the blocade, where are the homeless
families to go? Observers are calling this ethnic cleansing. This
has been going on in Palestine since 1948, one way or another, and
Israel stands now as a pariah state - yet another of the world's
hotspots in which British intervention stands at the root of the
problem - as if there was ever a serious possibility that Balfour or
any 'British Mandate' had it in its gift to award chunks of Palestine
to anyone over the heads of the native population. In recent days
Catholic healthcare clinics have been destroyed, many feel as direct
retaliation for condemnatory statements from the Vatican. Targetting
Hamas? Hardly.

Palestinians have a just cause, one that has been sinfully ignored and
villified by the international community as some sort of misguided
atonement for the holocaust of the second world war. Palestinians
have endured a 60-year long pogrom. Israel cannot seriously claim to
be a victim because the people it violently expels from their homes
and farms make some attempt to defend themselves and to reclaim what
is theirs. To where do the Palestinians have a right of return if not
to Palestine itself? But this isn't all. Right now, we are hearing
reports of rockets mysteriously making their way from Lebanon into the
North of Israel. Nobody knows who is firing them and Hezbollah is
quite clear it is not them. Is this more of the sort of 'provocation'
that Israel will be 'forced' to respond to in due course under guise
of 'defending' itself from Hezbollah - the other group of evil Arab
villains in the region, who coincidentally happen to be protecting
other teritory inside Lebanon that Israel feels really ought to belong
to it? Meanwhile a massive shipment of US-funded arms, just like the
one that arrived in Israel in early December, is making its way across
the Mediterranean to Israel. Sales of arms from Britain to Israel
more than trebled in the last 12 months - from £5 million to
£18million. Do they all know something we don't? Watch that space.
Yours sincerely"

by dunk Thu Jan 15, 2009 18:31

It has been stated above that there has been movements in both Britain and Spain for expullsions of their ambassadors, here is a little more about that, and a fine online letter website demanding to the head of Spain demanding expulsion

"A government that orders to kill people should not have an ambassador in Spain", was the lead argument made by IU (izquierda-unida : Left united) on 6th Jan, and from that, as far as i can make out, the call for the expulsion of the Spanish embassador, Raphael Schutz, has been growing. Just over 500 years ago, the Jews of Spain were expelled by racial politics of the time, later the muslims were fought off and also expelled, but perhaps there is an element of guilt in the Spanish psyche about their past acts of anti sematism? Eitherway, Israeli embassador Raphael Schutz has been busy conducting electronic and real meetings with people to defend his States atrocities. At a Gaza support meeting prior to last saturdays Barcelona very well attended march (100-175,000) I outlined that this political boycott should play a part in helping bring an end to the slaughter and asked whether it was a strategy being pursued in Spain, there it didnt seem to be a big thing, then again, it was mostly Catalan independista heads and their response was mumblings about autonomy.

In saying all this though, in the blog world, there are some further calls, as well as a very nice and simple online letter for the president, you just click to the link, add your name and bang, off it goes, im not sure if a record is kept, but its an interesting platform to use.

Online letter: Application for expulsion of the ambassador of Israel in Spain
(Solicitud de expulsión del embajador de Israel de España)
http://www.nosmeanylosdiariosdicenllueve.org/2009/01/so...pana/

Raphael Schutz, Embajador de Israel en España - virtual meetings on the newspaper sites
- Miércoles, 14 de Enero de 2009
http://www.elpais.com/edigitales/entrevista.html?id=4667
- Raphael Schutz
http://www.elmundo.es/encuentros/invitados/2009/01/3415/

Expulsion from Spain's ambassador to Israel
Expulsión de España del embajador de Israel ¡ya!
http://luchesentrubia.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/expulsio...A1ya/

the left united initial call for israeli ambassador expulsion
http://www1.izquierda-unida.es/noticia.php?id=4652

Expulsion calls in Britain

And just a little more about moves in Britain for the expulsion of their ambassador, with Tony Benn leading the call, from the report in the Guardian:

Hundreds at Gaza protest rally
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/feedarticle/8218932

Former Labour Cabinet Minister Tony Benn said the Israeli Ambassador to the UK should be expelled.

He said: "We should be making a demand on the British Government because speaking for myself, and I am sure for you, I think the response of British Government has been an absolute disgrace.

and an interview with Benn on, I think, Iranian TV
FIVE Press TV Bombed - Afshin Rattansi,Andrew Gilligan, Tony Benn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_R9ycJQ8rg

Expulsión de España del embajador de Israel ¡ya!

Calls for Zapatero to give Raphael Schutz the boot out of España

Tony Benn said the Israeli Ambassador to the UK should be expelled.

Caption: Video Id: N_R9ycJQ8rg Type: Youtube Video
Embedded video Youtube Video

by ec/ld - none Fri Jan 16, 2009 02:29

Thanks first to all who have been helping with bits and pieces - phone numbers and e-mails etc. Today the same letter was sent AGAIN to the Irish Times with a NEW list of signatories. This was done because yesterday they set a limit on the number of signatories they would accept. This new version of the list, as well as the list published on the 15th of January in the Irish Times, is pasted in the comment below below this one. They are separated by a line.

We doubt if it'll be published again with the new list. The letter will be distributed AGAIN tomorrow to the Sunday papers with all signatories we have by tomorrow afternoon. It will also be distributed from tomorrow afternoon to english language international newspapers such as the Guardian in the UK - just in case.

We hope to continue to gather many more signatures to/for the letter over the next few days leading up to Monday 20th January.

The reason for this is that the Israeli Government today announced to the media that they intend to conduct a 'PR Attack' against countries who are displaying a 'distorted public opinion' of Israel and its actions in Gaza. Ireland is on the list of the six countries they are 'targeting' with this campaign of ministerial visits. In fact Ireland is one of only two countries listed in the article.

"Tamir (An Israeli Government Minister) will be heading to Iceland and Ireland, after the Irish foreign minister published five announcements condemning Israel over the humanitarian situation in Gaza. The minister did condemn the rocket attacks on Israel, but did not place direct responsibility on Hamas and did not explicitly call for the group to halt its fire. Ireland's prime minister also condemned Israel's operation. On Thursday, 41 Irish parliament members published an announcement calling for an immediate ceasefire, and saying that Israel's response in Gaza was disproportional. Irish media is also a harsh critic of Israel, and many organizations in the country have been working to pressure the government in the matter. . . . If the cabinet decides to call a ceasefire, the ministers will be asked to explain the Palestinian civilian casualties in the shadow of the images of destruction that are likely to be exposed to the World as the battles cease. If it is decided to further expand the Gaza offensive, the ministers will have to explain to their hosts why Israel is doing so." SOURCE

by ec Fri Jan 16, 2009 02:58

We the undersigned are united in seeking the immediate expulsion of
the Israeli Ambassador to Ireland Dr. Zion Evrony. We believe the
Ambassador must leave Ireland until such time as there is a complete
end to Israel's war on Gaza and its continued slaughter of the
Palestinian people.

(New List)

Dr.Edward Horgan
Denis J. Halliday, former UN Assistant Secretary-General
Orla Ni Chomhrai M.Phil, Peace Studies
Dr.Conor Kostick
John Buckley
Fred Johnston
Diarmuid Breathnach
David Dobz O'Brien
Mary Kelly
Brian O'Boyle (St.Angelas College, Sligo)
Mark Conroy (Contact.ie)
Conor McGrady
Hassan Elsafty
Naisrin Elsafty
Zahrah Elsafty
Conor O'Boyle
Ciaron O'Reilly (Ploughshares)
Peter Handforth (Justice not Terror Coalition)
Justin Morahan, Justice not Terror Coalition
Mark Cullen
Eoin Llewellyn
Seamus Nolan
Tim Hourigan (Shannonwatch.org)
Duncan Crowley
Eilis McDonald
Elaine Cronin
Ailbhe Murphy,
Ciaran Smyth (Vagabond Reviews)
Dave Lordan (Irish Anti War Movement)
Niall Walsh
Paul O'Toole
Kevin Noble
Derek Cronin (Optophonic Ltd)
Dette Mc loughlin (Galway Free Gaza Campaign)
Liam O'Grady (SWP)
June Kelly
Douglas Foxvog (NUIG)
Paul Byrne
Mairead Byrne
Morgan C.Jones
Joseph Loughnane (SWP)
Romek Delimata
Cllr. Mick Barry (Socialist Party)
Cllr. Clare Daly (Socialist Party)
Cllr. Mick Murphy (Socialist Party)
Cllr. Mick Barry (Socialist Party)
Keith Cullen (Setanta Records)
Paula Hayes
Morgan C.Jones (Sound Engineer)
Rubina Rehan
Anne Quinn
Vera Ondul
Tom Harrigan (Labour Party)
Rachel Kilbane
Elaine Mears (LLM International Human Rights Law)
Jo Ronayne
Paul Dunne
Glenn Loughran
Oya Crehan
J. Griff
Meryem Crehan
Tilbe Korkurt
Dilara Korkurt
Nezaket Kalyancuoglu
Safiye Korkurt
Cansu Akkoyun
Bridget O'Hara
Hilagrosa Urra
Carolina Gallego
Consuelo Cruz
Carina Kelly
Patrick McCarthy
Joe Giblin
Ozge Akkoyun
Ayten Akkoyun
Nigar Aytekin
Mehmet Aytekin
Sahin Akkoyun
Cihan Ardahan
Micheal O Coisdealbha
Manluce da Silva
Conor Graham
Ann Mc Cormick
Ruth Conroy
Ann Dunne
Michael Dunne
Jennifer Dunne
Veronica O'Keane

List of Signatories Published with the same Letter in Irish Times on 15th January 2009

Mairead Maguire, Nobel Peace Laureate
Kathy Sinnott MEP
Margaret Conlon TD
Maggie Ronayne NUIG
Gerry Grehan, Chairman Peace People
Dr. Raymond Deane
Brendan Butler, NGO Peace Alliance
Robert Ballagh
Jack O'Connor General President SIPTU
Dr.Fintan Lane
Richard Boyd Barrett IAWM
Kieran Allen SWP
Dr.Steven Loyal UCD
M.J. Nolan TD
Dr.Theresa Urbain Czyk UCD
Joe Higgins SP Rep
Margaretta D'Arcy
Brian O'Connor Labour Youth
Prof.Mary Gallagher UCD
Chris Andrews TD
Shane Cullen
Dr. Saber Elsafty
John Waddell
Treasa Ni Cheannabhain
Patricia McKenna
John Arden
Charlie Cullen
Sen.Ivana Bacik Seanad Eireann
Colin Coulter NUIM
Michael Kilemade
Terence Browne
Dr.Fergal Gaynor UCC
Nina McGowan
Tim Redfern
Mairead Ni Chuig Tg4
Eamonn McCann
Mhairi Sutherland.
Michael Moynihan TD
Brian Hand
Seamus Kealy, Model Arts & Niland Gallery
Dr Andy Storey UCD
Paul Murnaghan
Katharina Pfuetzner NCAD
Anna Macleod. DIT
Christy Moore

by Fred Johnston Fri Jan 16, 2009 03:59

I am in favour of the idea that the Israeli ambassador to Ireland should be expelled - clearly other countries kow-tow a lot less to the US and therefore don't fear the wrath of that malign democracy or its Israeli aircraft-carrier if they speak out against the slaughter and pathological criminality of Israel's invasion of Gaza. It is NOT enough that the occasional FF politician makes a statement. It is important to reiterate that an intellectual and cultural ban on Israel is also required: that means that our writers and artists do not accept invitations to appear in Israel and that our academics refuse to go there also. Remember - Israel is fighting (and losing) the PR war this time: culture is a curtain they can pull down around what is happening in order to conceal the true intentions of the hawks in the government, who want to win an Israeli election by murdering Palestinians.

by ec Fri Jan 16, 2009 13:06

So thanks to those who have been in touch and if you have a little time free please consider doing a bit of texting / phoning / mailing on this.

by dunk Fri Jan 16, 2009 14:03

South Africa, New Zealand, Norway, Zimbabwe
Please hunt around, find out where else this call is being made, tell us here, ta.
Perhaps updates on the wikipedia site might also help too, to show that this expulsion call has been made and that it is growing...

South Africa: Leaders of the protest handed a memorandum to Deputy Foreign Minister Sue van der Merwe outside Parliament's main gate which among other things calls on government to expel Israel's ambassador to South Africa, and for the imposition of sanctions against that country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reaction_to_...flict
call made by Palestine Solidarity Committee, SA:
http://psc.za.org/gaza_statements_3.htm

New Zealand: Call to expel Israeli ambassador Friday January 16, 2009
The government is coming under pressure to expel the Israeli ambassador to New Zealand, Yuval Rotem.
http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/call-expel-israeli-amba...43338

Norway: 22.000 supports the Facebook-group demanding the ambassador...be expelled from Norway. The Facebook-group has got attention in all major newspaper[s] and was hacked by a Zionist hacker-group but is now back on track.
http://mostlywater.org/norway_unions_mobilize_against_i..._gaza

Zimbabwe: Follow Chavez's Path and Expel Israeli Ambassador
http://newzim.proboards86.com/index.cgi?board=general&a...77499

Jordan: Jordanians call for expelling Israeli ambassador 10/9/2000
Some 33 Jordanian parliament members have called for expelling the Israeli ambassador from Amman in honor of the feelings of the Jordanians and the souls of al-Aqsa martyrs.
Their flag is already up, but this is just a bit more about it.

Previously 2 years ago, Sweden made call when Israel attacked Lebanon
Sweden: Social Democrats: expel Israeli ambassador
A number of Social Democratic parliamentary candidates in Sweden are calling on the government to expel Israel’s ambassador in Stockholm as a show of protest against the Jewish state’s attacks on Lebanon.......... Perhaps a similar call will be made soon?
http://www.thelocal.se/4429/20060726/

I leave you with vid with english translation of the first country to give their Israeli embassador the boot, due to, what still might turn out to be, war crimes in Gaza...

Venezuela expels Israeli ambassador- Hugo Chavez Speech - English Translation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l61tVPqf3hA

Solidarity...

Calls to expell Israeli ambassador from South Africa

Calls to expell Israeli ambassador from New Zealand

Calls to expell Israeli ambassador from Norway

Calls to expell Israeli ambassador from Zimbabwe

wikimap: International reaction to the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict

Caption: Video Id: l61tVPqf3hA Type: Youtube Video
Embedded video Youtube Video

by Reporter12 Fri Jan 16, 2009 14:14

Turkey goes one step further and demands Israel's expulsion from the UN.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3657237,00.html

'How can a country that does not implement Security Council resolutions be allowed to enter through the gates of the UN headquarters,' Recep Tayyip Erdogan says

by dunk Fri Jan 16, 2009 15:53

Turkey, Egypt

Thanks Reporter12for above news regarding Turkey, Im presuming there is also calls for expulsion of the Israeli ambassador there too, cant find info on that, yet. I think its fair that their flag be added to the list... Most animated flags can be found at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Animated_GIF...flags

Turkey: Turkish PM: Israel should be barred from UN, 01.16.09
As above post
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3657237,00.html

Egypt : Egypt detains 16 after protest against Israel's offensive in Gaza, Sunday, 11 January 2009
http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=34753
In recent days protesters have called for the expulsion of the Israeli ambassador to Cairo, and for Egypt to open its Rafah border crossing with Gaza to allow Palestinians to flee the 16-day aggression which has killed 868 people.

The Egyptian government and security agencies have been eager to suppress protests against the Israeli attacks on Gaza, in which protesters frequently condemn the government for "its complicity in the blockade of the coastal strip."

Calls to expell Israeli ambassador from Turkey

Calls to expell Israeli ambassador from Egypt

by dunk Fri Jan 16, 2009 17:38 fuspey at yahoo dot co dot uk

1 - How Ireland could be the first state in Europe to expell its Israeli embassador.

The call in Ireland for this expulsion is growing, but time is limited in preparation of his upcoming public meeting, as well as that each day longer this war / butchering carries on many more die. An idea has been running through my head today since seeing this EXPULSION CALL grow, both with the second letter to the Times, the amount of people already signed to it and the new spaces, numbers to call, emails to send, to have your name included, as well as being picked up by the Israeli PR radar. In time, I think, it can really catch on in the Irish public consciousness, more can act on the idea, and with all that, perhaps Ireland might play a very important role in this tragic affair; being the first state in Europe to expell its Israeli embassador. If this were to happen, a critical mass of the public as well as celebreties would have to support, Christy Moore has already signed up to it, that in itself could surely get the support of many many people. I think its possible and with that, I have a little idea to propose...

- 2 - Proposal for the deliverance of a VERY BIG LETTER to Zion Evrony....

In short, the idea is to make a huge card with THE LETTER written on it, to have all the signatories sign it and to walk through town to deliver it to Zion Evrony. While doing this walking the walk, also take time to talk the talk, and if people are supportive of the idea, let them also sign the card. They can also access the email / phone number with their details for official side of things. Thats it

Further thinking has me asking questions like "What is the largest card of this sort given in history, We are all familiar with pictures of those huge cheques, but what about letters demanding expulsion? I then got to thinking how this could be turned into a world record attempt, that would surely add to the publicising of the event, and with that the support for the expulsion

Logistics
Its very feasible to make this card. We agree on the size, divide the small image up into squares, each group gets a square, they get cardboard and paint their bit, later all groups meet up and connect the bits, tape them with underneath with gaffer tape, and there you go: Worlds (physically) largest letter.

Cops might try to stop such an act from happening, if it were to happen say, outside the GPO, thats another issue.

- 3 - Regarding the signing of THE LETTER
So far its a small list who have signed, granted its still very early days. But, for those who feel they wont sign, I would ask, what will it take for you to change your mind?
another 1000 dead, another 10,000 dead. The remaining hospitals, UN buildings, media spaces eliminated, absolute destruction of infrastructure resulting in massive death rates??

- 4 - Art and political actions work...

Anyway, im just throwing the idea out there, if anyone requires help or can improve the proposal email me,

NOTE: To many this idea might seem silly, a gimmick, ill-felt, but it comes from firstly a deep felt concern to help try to end this slaughter and bring those guilty of crimes against humanity to justice... I live in Barcelona, where "art" and "politics" regularly cross over in such type of events and I have some experience of using "artistic acts" to get a message across as well as getting huge amounts of people involved.

If too little time, its a strategy perhaps to be worked on for later stage

Previous examples of Giant art acts as political tools for change...

Human Aerial Art at Tara, People power combines art protest and politics.
Over 1500 people from across Ireland and beyond, gathered at the Hill of Tara to take part in a living human sculpture to call for the rerouting of the M3 away from the Tara Valley.
Artists involved: John Quigley, an internationally renowned aerial artist, as well as Stuart Townsend, actor and director (Battle of Seattle)
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/84352

WE ARE ARMED........ ONLY WITH PEER-REVIEWED SCIENCE
Climate Camp 2007 art action against expansion of Heathrow airport
http://moblog.net/view/269791/we-are-armed-only-with-pe...ience
http://greenladywell.blogspot.com/2007/08/armed-only-wi....html
Police clash with protesters at Heathrow: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/aug/19/clima...sport

THE LETTER : requesting signatories

THE LETTER : requesting signatories people to make world record attempt?

Previous examples of Giant art acts as political tools for change...TARA

Previous examples of Giant art acts as political tools for change...Climate Camp 2007

by A signatory Fri Jan 16, 2009 18:21

The point of trying to gather as many well known and respected signatories for his expulsion is to garner public awareness/support etc.

Once this idea is out in the public domain as much as is possible united action then needs to be taken.......to the street outside the Israeli Embassy........
where Mr.Evrony if he's at home (does he live there?) will be effectively imprisoned until he is forced to comply or remain imprisoned.....

Are we capable?

by ec Fri Jan 16, 2009 19:24

To commenter and signatory above - absolutely. We do want to make this a public thing. The list needs to be published so that there is an awareness of the widespread agreement with this demand. It's no good if 100-200-300 whatever people are aware that they demand this and are willing to state so publically - IT NEEDS TO BE STATED PUBLICALLY IN THE BROADEST SENSE so that the public can go - yes this is a popular demand and we will support it (and those who make flesh of it ) because it is a popular demand.

We are trying to do this in any way we can think of at present and it is to say the least an uphill battle despite the fact that names are pouring in. Dunk's idea of an artistic public presentation of the letter and signatories is a good one and hopefully people will think about that too.

It might end up that madam shafted us by saying - yes we'll publish but with a limited number of names. So now we find a way around madam? A little bit of creativity goes a lot further than the price of a new car for a half page.

Thanks again to the members of civil society who are helping in many ways along the way. Names are still flowing in but gold bars are a bit scarce what with the disappearing funny money and all. Names are worth more than gold at the end of the day as Palestinian civil society and those present in Gaza supporting them are reminding us by their ongoing meticulous cataloguing of the names of their many dead.

by ec Fri Jan 16, 2009 19:35

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/16/gaza-israel...tions

The massacres in Gaza are the latest phase of a war that Israel has been waging against the people of Palestine for more than 60 years. The goal of this war has never changed: to use overwhelming military power to eradicate the Palestinians as a political force, one capable of resisting Israel's ongoing appropriation of their land and resources. Israel's war against the Palestinians has turned Gaza and the West Bank into a pair of gigantic political prisons. There is nothing symmetrical about this war in terms of principles, tactics or consequences. Israel is responsible for launching and intensifying it, and for ending the most recent lull in hostilities.

Israel must lose. It is not enough to call for another ceasefire, or more humanitarian assistance. It is not enough to urge the renewal of dialogue and to acknowledge the concerns and suffering of both sides. If we believe in the principle of democratic self-determination, if we affirm the right to resist military aggression and colonial occupation, then we are obliged to take sides... against Israel, and with the people of Gaza and the West Bank.

We must do what we can to stop Israel from winning its war. Israel must accept that its security depends on justice and peaceful coexistence with its neighbours, and not upon the criminal use of force.

We believe Israel should immediately and unconditionally end its assault on Gaza, end the occupation of the West Bank, and abandon all claims to possess or control territory beyond its 1967 borders. We call on the British government and the British people to take all feasible steps to oblige Israel to comply with these demands, starting with a programme of boycott, divestment and sanctions.
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We regard Israel's indiscriminate killing in Gaza as a crime against humanity. We protest against Israel's exterminating tactics and offer our wholehearted support to the people of Gaza.
Stephen Frears – Film Director – UK
Nigel Kennedy - Musician, Poland/UK
Miriam Margolyes – Actress UK
Brian Eno – Musician and producer UK
Robert Wyatt – Musician UK
William Dalrymple - Writer and historian
Dhafer Youssef – Musician France
Dave Robinson - Producer & pioneer of Stiff Records, UK
Razanne Carmey – Playwright UK
Chaz Jankel – Musician UK
Philip Bagenal - Music Producer and mixer UK
Christine Tobin - Singer UK
Jeffrey Blankfort - Photographer USA
Liane Carroll - Musician singer UK
Martin Coogan - Musician UK
Anis Hamadeh - Musician Germany
Radhika Jha – Writer India
Prem Shankar Jha Author & journalist India
Uzma Aslam Khan - Novelist and Essayist Pakistan
Sarah Gillespie - Musician UK
Darrell Lawrence - Music & film producer USA
Shadia Mansour - Singer UK
Moni Ovadia - Actor Italy
Gilad Atzmon - Musician and writer UK
Susheela Raman - Singer UK
Karl Sabbagh – Writer UK
Rich Siegel – Musician USA
Paul Sussman – Author UK
Sunny Singh – Writer India
David Toop- Musician & author UK
John Turnbull – Musician UK

As members of the Jewish Black Asian Forum, we are distressed and outraged at the pointless loss of life and humanitarian disaster in Gaza. The values we share, and the stories of loss and exclusion we bring to our discussions , drive us to speak out together. As members of British communities closely connected to Israel and Palestine, we call on Israel to immediately end its use of military force in Gaza and on Hamas to cease firing rockets into Israel. Our government, together with other governments and international actors, must engage with the authorities in Israel, Palestine and Gaza to help facilitate a lasting peace in the region and an end to the occupation.
Tanaka Loha, Antony Lerman, Geoffrey Bindman, Francesca Klug, June Jacobs, Imam Sajid, Arlington Trotman, Lincoln Crawford, Mumtaz Rahim, Simon Wooley

Jasa Almuli's claims (Letters, 15 January) that Israel has accepted a Palestinian state and that the obstacle to peace is Hamas's refusal to recognise the state of Israel are false. Israel's response to every offer of a viable two-state solution has been to expand the settlements, as during the Oslo "peace" process. On the other hand, the political leadership of Hamas has many times said that it would accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders and has offered a long-term truce on that basis. This offer was repeated by the Hamas prime minister, Ismail Haniyeh, on 8 November 2008 to a group of 11 European parliamentarians, including Clare Short. He denied that Hamas was seeking to destroy the state of Israel. "Our conflict is not with the Jews; our problem is with the occupation," he said. Israel, however, just as it rejected Hamas's ceasefire offer of 23 December, rejects all negotiation with Hamas's political leadership and prefers to try to smash its military wing instead. Hamas does not have to accept Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state before peace can be negotiated any more than Sinn Féin had to accept Northern Ireland as part of the UK before negotiating a peace there.
Leon Rosselson
Wembley Park, Middlesex

At last the west is coming clean. Palestinians are freedom fighters, not terrorists, who have suffered 60 years of injustice inflicted by the real axis of evil, Israel and the US. The murderous attack on Gaza is an insane attempt at ethnic cleansing before Obama takes over.
Eva Figes
London

Iranian military aid to Hamas has been steady and vital to Hamas since its coup of July 2007. The movement has been equipped with dozens of Iranian Fajr-3 missiles - the longest-range ordnance it is thought to possess. The 122mm Grad rockets it has been firing at Israel are in its possession because of the Iranian connection. Like Hezbollah, Hamas is an Iranian proxy. And just as in 2006, Iran was instrumental in inciting the current war. Israel's fight is a fight for western values of secular democracy and human rights against those that would unleash a medieval theocracy upon us all.
Chris Gale
Chippenham, Wiltshire

by Mary Kelly Fri Jan 16, 2009 20:17

brilliant statement says it all- thanks for taking time to post it.

"It is not enough to call for another ceasefire, or more humanitarian assistance. It is not enough to urge the renewal of dialogue and to acknowledge the concerns and suffering of both sides. If we believe in the principle of democratic self-determination, if we affirm the right to resist military aggression and colonial occupation, then we are obliged to take sides... against Israel, and with the people of Gaza and the West Bank."

by ec Fri Jan 16, 2009 20:28

Take sides here too. Treat making the letter about the Irish Ambassador an unprecedented civil society statement here as an urgent matter.

(The letters that the guardian have published make me want to find a way of calling Noel and Liam Gallagher and Shane McGowan. They have academics by the score in england and here we have artists and musicians and writers and film people.. We DON'T have their numbers at present. Someone who knows someone who knows someone must have.)

by Frank Adam - private citizen Fri Jan 16, 2009 20:48

Given the crassness of assigning morality by casualty lists favoured in the current fashion of kicking Israel, the Gaza list though tragic for the families is a fleabite compared to the bombing and ground fighting casualty bills in the Allied bombing of Germany; the Iraqi - Iranian war; the Iraqi losses in the Bush Snr and Bush Jnr wars, or the several other Arab v. Arab wars in: Lebanon, Yemen, Algeria, and Morocco.

The only reason for the largely manufactured outrage against Israel is because it is the only conflict that does not divide Arabs and other Moslems into rival camps; because Israel has good hotels and telephones where jackal journalists can luxuriate while treating events like a rugby commentary without risking upsetting commercial lobbies at home.

Before taking offence, just why else is nobody making the front page about the millions of dead wounded and displaced in the Congo?? Colombia ?? or the other millions of Arab refugees in the Saharawi (West Algeria - East Morocco in case you never heard of it) ?? Then there is always Aghanistan and Somaliland just in case you prefer Islamic rule to Israel's relatively tame democracy - which is certainly more restrained by conscience than the assassins of Michael Collins.

In your own lives and careers, you only get the ear of somebody you have no authority over by commercial or social intercourse, that is by talking - not throwing them out. Expelling ambassadors is the burglar pulling the phone out of the socket. For a nation that is so proud of its own independence despite having an economy that gets 'flu when the UK economy gets a chill; do note that Israel has a right to independence despite the vile Arab war and Arab rejection of UN 181 since 1947 so seeking to destroy Israel.

Finally stop being so cross purposes ridiculous to castigate US interference anywhere, while demanding the US chew and spit out Israel because you can not.

by Sanity clause Fri Jan 16, 2009 21:20

I'm shocked that people are praising capitalist governments for their opposition to Israel's war in Gaza. Remember when you are praising Turkey that they are the government waging a war against the Kurdish people who regularly invade Iraq/Kurdistan. Similarly why would you praise Mugabe's bloody dictatorship!

by Mark C - Contact.ie Sat Jan 17, 2009 13:28

1. Expelling him does not mean that he cannot be invited back at a later date. We (i.e. Ireland) have no problem not having discourse with other countries when we have problems with their leadership (Zimbabwe for instance).

2. It shows the world (or certainly Israel) that Ireland does not agree with such disproportional reactions to so-called terrorism. We'd be following in the steps of Venezuela, Jordan, and Bolivia.

3. It might cut off his easy access to Irish media to promote in such a one-sided manner the Israeli version of events. (This is increasingly important given the "PR Attack" that is about to be launched by Israel against six nations (Ireland being one) who have not been pro-Israel enough in the past weeks.)

by ec/ld Sat Jan 17, 2009 16:44

we have a lot of new signatories and will compile them soon.

Anyone who wants to help with this please contact ecrudden@gmail.com or doherty.lea@gmail.com

by ec Sat Jan 17, 2009 17:27

Prof.Brian Maguire, NCAD.
Shauna Gillan (Barrister)
Donal Lunny
Dr. Margaret Cahill
Sean Clinton
Anne Clinton
Maura Harrington (Shell to Sea)
Conor Creegan
Áine Ivers, Market Studios, Opening Spaces.
Daniel Cullen
Seamus Diskin
Aongus Mac Cara
Ann Lyons
Padraic Kavanagh
Mark O'Toole
Anne Hughes
Noirin Hennessy
Matthew Hennessy
Barbara Acton
Adrian J. Acton
Stan Erraught
Seoidín O'Sullivan.
Karen Fallon
Kate Nally
Iosaf Mac Diarmada (1 of indymedia)

by ec Sat Jan 17, 2009 17:47

Eoin Dubsky
Nóra Geraghty
Professor Stephen Mennell (UCD)
Franc Myles (Archaeologist, Dublin)
Dr Maria Stuart (UCD)
Niamh Crudden
Joe Carolan (Editor, Socialist Aotearoa)
Padraig L Henry
John Lannon (Shannonwatch.org)
Hugh O'Connor

by EC Sat Jan 17, 2009 19:11

Richie Price (!Kaboogie)
Declan Carey (!Kaboogie)
Jamie Farrel (Skinny Wolves)
Peter Symes (Skinny Wolves)
Colm Olwill (The Gramophone Disco)
Annette Ryan (The Gramophone Disco)
Mike Donoghue (The Alphabet Set)
John Mahon (The Alphabet Set)

by ec Sat Jan 17, 2009 20:48

Mary Clinton
Sean Gillan
Jessica Foley (Artist/teacher)
Owen Kelly
Katherine Lynch (Actress/comedian)
Stephen McInerne (Green Party)
Paul Caheny (Irish Citizen, Sligo)
Philip O'Connor (Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign)
Gavin Gleeson (National Secretary of the Workers Solidarity Movement on behalf of the organisation)

by ec Sat Jan 17, 2009 21:01

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7835364.stm

by Vincent Sat Jan 17, 2009 21:27

There need be no confusion. This bullshit is not a ceasefire.

Israeli Foreign Minister said that she sees no reason not to stop killing for now as this only one phase in many such like that can be conducted after we have all stopped looking on. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3657707,00.html

For days now every time Israel turns around in Gaza it commits an atrocity, they realise that their current positon is unsustainable. They need to subtly change the paramaters of their murdering within the international perception.

So they change the perception : We call a ceasefire ! We want peace ! Look how Hamas continues to fire rockets when there is a ceasefire - we called Peace first so you cant blame us for what we do next.

You kick in your neighbours door, kill half his family, blow his house to bits then step back on to the street with your gun pointed at his head and Yell "Ceasefire...Peace"? Thats not how it works.

No confusion - This is not a ceasefire.

by gaza sympathiser (2) Sun Jan 18, 2009 02:40

They're coming to Europe to spread the 'War IS peace' message.

I mean read this lunacy

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1056175.html
"Taking note of the efforts of Egyptian President Mubarak, particularly the recognition that securing Gaza's border is indispensable to realizing a durable and sustainable end to fighting in Gaza;

Unequivocally condemning all acts, methods, and practices of terrorism as unjustifiable, wherever and by whomever committed and whatever the motivation, in particular, the recent rocket and mortar attacks and other hostile activity perpetrated against Israel from Gaza by terrorist organizations;"

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/01/418833.html
"Hamas have 2 requirements for a ceasefire, namely that Israel withdraw from Gaza and that the siege tactics of Israel are lifted and the crossings opened. Which one of those is so terrifying for Israel?

Rather than agree to these it is being reported that Israel are declaring a unilateral ceasefire (whatever one of those is, is it the same as the unilateral war we've been watching?). They have said that if the rockets don't stop (at least the BBC didn't describe them as missiles this time) then they will attack with more surgical strikes. It is unclear if these will be the same surgical strikes that have hit schools, mosques, government buildings, police stations, aid relief agencies and managed to kill upwards of 500 innocent women and children.

There was also an interview with Gordon Brown where he said he has offered UK naval forces to try and help stop the smuggling of arms in to Gaza, he didn't mention whether this would include stopping the smuggling of food, fuel and medicine as well (I would guess that the answer to that would be yes). Doesn't he realise that implicates us directly in the horrible treatment of the Palestinians in Gaza? Doesn't he realise that makes us prison guards too in Gaza? I am absolutely appaled by the way the Israelis have treated the Palestinians and now our 'left wing' government is offering to lend a hand in this brutal repression!

Is Brown happy for us to become complicit in the denial of food, education, medical supplies, the right to self determination, the right to freedom of movement and other basic human rights that we are supposed to hold dear? Yes the vicious slaughter has to stop but agreeing to help keep 1.5 million people penned in the world's biggest prison is not something we should have to agree to do!

When you look at the history of Hamas you find that they were financed, by and large, by Israel themselves as a counterbalance to the PLO. They don't want any form of unity between the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, hence the 'bigging up' of Abbas (who'll do as he's told). Just what kind of democracy is it that the US and UK are trying to spread in the ME? Democracy as long as you vote for the parties that we approve of? That doesn't really fit with my understaning of the meaning of the word.

This whole affair is insane, I have become even more convinced that the people we have leading us are psychopaths, making and cutting deals with other psychopaths. They're all freaking crazy."

by gaza sympathiser (2) Sun Jan 18, 2009 02:59

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=FOJ20090113...H4#H4
Deputy Michael D. Higgins: It is very important that we call for an immediate ceasefire to
save lives. It ++++++++++

I wonder will he and Aengus Ó Snodaigh see this quite extraordinary gambit - the Israelis 'declaring peace' with guns drawn, in huge numbers, while IN Gaza with Palestinian bodies and wounded everywhere, UN schools, hospitals, personnel attacked, unimaginable weaponry pointed in the direction of every shred of infrastructure not already destroyed, - As a CEASEFIRE?

I certainly hope not.

'Some animals are more equal than others'.

by kiwi girl reader Sun Jan 18, 2009 03:06

Text of US Israel Agreement
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1056175.html
nothing in the text for the protection of the Palestinians rights.
Two very sick societies do business as usual.

by gaza sympathiser (2) Sun Jan 18, 2009 03:25

There is one Israeli Hostage in Gaza - There are well over a million Palestinian hostages in Gaza (not to speak of those in the palestinians in the jails).

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1056246.html

"We did not go to war to fight the people of Gaza," he (Barak) said. "Hamas has taken half of the Palestinian people hostage. The IDF and the Shin Bet dealt Hamas a painful blow."

The Palestinians in Gaza hostages of each other? No. That's twisted denial and psychological projection by those who ARE actually keeping hostages in massive numbers.

by ec Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:25

The open letter (with the first approximately 130 signatories) was sent as a letter to the editor of the following newspapers on Friday 16th. Sunday Business Post / Sunday Tribune / Sunday Independent / Irish Examiner.

None have published it or reported on this civil society initiative in any way.

The group of us that have gathered around this initiative are continuing it. This 'unilateral ceasefire' does not even begin to approach being "a complete end to Israel’s war on Gaza and its continued slaughter of the Palestinian people". If you feel that signing the letter in present circumstances is something that you would like to do - please do so using the information in bold below.

It seems to us that supporting this initiative in present circumstances (WAR IS PEACE) is MORE important than ever in the context of this 'PR attack'.

More updates soon on a possible public event to properly release the letter. We are not getting enough cash coming through to publish this as a paid for page in a newspaper. We've given up on that and will be in touch very soon to return donations already received - but we are getting help from others to find creative ways of getting this initiative into the public consciousness. Again - if anyone has an idea on this or wants to help please get in touch by e-mail.

The basics to pass on to those who may like to sign the open letter:

To add your signature please e-mail either ecrudden(at)gmail.com or doherty.leah(at)gmail.com. Please include your signature the way you want it to appear (title / group or organisation to which affilaiated) AND include a phone number where we can contact you to confirm that it is indeed you if necessary. You can also phone Leah at 087 7409102 or Eamonn at 086 8812465 and sign in that way.

by ec Sun Jan 18, 2009 13:20

Laura Maher, Montessori Teacher
Laura McCormack, Beautician
Jinx Lennon
Ann Clinton

by gazasympathiser (2) Sun Jan 18, 2009 13:25

This blog thread is very interesting
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2009/01/ethnic-cleansing-g...ments

With Gaza rendered inhabitable, winter still on, a lot of women and children and elderly might seek 'refuge' in Egypt. and of course they will never have a right to return. I expect the men to try and hold out, but as they also want to be with their families - who knows.

why do people deny the obvious, Gaza makes no sense geopolitical in the 'greater Israel' dream. its a thorn in the eye, it needs to go.
Starvation and individual killings did not do the trick and will take to long.
But now, who will want to stay and rebuild in Gaza, and more importantly who will want to pay for rebuilding when everyone knows it is only a question of time (2 years max), for a new crop of Israeli draftees to arrive in need of target practice.

by ec Sun Jan 18, 2009 14:04

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/18/israel-gaza...agile

by ec Sun Jan 18, 2009 15:44

Caoimhe Butterly (Free Gaza movement)

A recent report from Caoimhe sent from Gaza is at this link
http://freegaza.org/en/home/696-still-breathing

by ec Sun Jan 18, 2009 18:24

Donal O'Kelly (Writer / Actor)
Gearóid O Loingsigh (Photographer)
Liam O Briain (Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign)

by ec Sun Jan 18, 2009 21:39

The Israeli Minister for Education was just on RTE at 9 news. Will be doing her PR attack selling War as Peace around the place tomorrow.

1. We are going to present the letter and 230+ sigs to press and embassy at the 11.30 am event organised by AFRI at Israeli Embassy.

2. We need help with a mobile projection tomorrow evening - 5pm - portable projector / car and driver and a small generator with a surge protector and long (50 FT) extention lead. Anyone who can help please contact 087 7409102 urgently. The Letter and signatures are being made into a film loop using Al Jazeera's Crerative commons footage from Gaza.

by Mary Kelly Sun Jan 18, 2009 22:15

thanks for the interesting link gazasympathiser, on it also was http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dlfhoU66s4Y a song by Michael Heart that says so much

by dunk Mon Jan 19, 2009 13:06

USA: Los Angelas - Israeli Consulate closed for war crimes Thursday January 16, 2009

USA: Protesters Block Israeli Consulates in L.A., San Francisco

Protests continue to denounce Israel’s assault across the United States. On Thursday, nine people were arrested after chaining themselves together to block the Israeli consulate in San Francisco. The protest came one day after six Jewish activists held a similar action at the Israeli consulate in Los Angeles. Dozens of others gathered outside the consulate, chanting “US Jews say not in our name.” Eric Romann of the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network took part in the protest.

Eric Romann: “As Jews, we condemn it. We believe it’s a betrayal of our legacy as a people. As US citizens, we are outraged that our government continues to provide both military, economic and political support and to defend Israel in the international community. We’re very upset with local Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa for his repeated public statements defending what is an unjustifiable criminal siege by Israel against Gaza.”

See accompanying photo
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/16/headlines#9
Israeli Consulate closed for war crimes
After some confusion online, finally new IMC-ORG feature: Gaza Massacre: actions and information
http://www.indymedia.org/en/2009/01/919495.shtml
http://la.indymedia.org/

USA: Los Angelas - Israeli Consulate closed for war crimes- Thursday January 16, 2009

Calls to expell Israeli ambassador from USA

by Reporter12 Tue Jan 20, 2009 15:55

The UN leader has eventually called for action.

Those who bombed the UN buildings should be accountable, he said in a remarkable act of flabbergasted lambastamy.

“There must be a full investigation, a full explanation to make sure it never happens again. There should be accountabilty through a proper judiciary system.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east...9.ece

by ec Mon Jan 26, 2009 23:35

Daisy Mules
Sarah Clancy
Beatrice Ni Bhroin, Volta Cinema
James Redmond, Volta Cinema
Miriam Cotton (Mediabite)
Bev Cotton
Stephen Lewis (SIPTU Organising Unit)
Joe Murray (Afri)
Eamonn Doyle (D1 Recordings)
Evelyn Doherty (Solicitor)
Eoin Brady (Solicitor)
Eamonn Crudden (Filmaker/Teacher)
Barry Lennon (Richter Collective)
Leagues O'Toole (Foggy Notions)
Gerry Carron (Retired, Irish Army)
Sorcha Fox (Writer/Actor)
Paul Ryan (Revolt Video)
Mary Healy (Homeless Services Manager)
Paul Cassidy (MALTA: Monaghan Adult Learning Through the Arts)
Leo Ward
Séamus Ó Raghallaigh
Aisling Ní Fhlatharta (Primary School Teacher)
Michael Flanagan
Margo Harkin
Stephen Gargan (Gaslight Productions Ltd)
Ciaran Gallagher (Queen's Socialist Society)
David Kelly
Michelle Kelly
Declan Mc Elroy (Teacher)
Abeer Majeed (M.D.)
Keith Harris (Newsmedianews.com)
Dr. Tomás Mac Síomóin. FARGA (Cataluña)
Nick Folley
Dr. Pat Muldowney (University of Ulster)
Orna Bradshaw
Brian Sullivan
Mick Burke (Ballymun Against War activist)
Risteard Ó Meachair (Múinteoir Gaeilge)
Donagh Brennan (Irish Left Review)
Dr. Adel Farrag
Joan Nolan
Zoe Lawlor

by ld Tue Jan 27, 2009 00:29

Ger Dorgan (former Ind. Dublin City Cllr)
Ray Kay Keaney
P.J. O'Dwyer
Aisling Crudden
Ronan Stephens (Loxi)
Maria Olwill (Gramophone Disco)
Iqra Mubeen
Anam Hussain
Farah Rehan
Tom Flanagan
Asma Khan
Nazinia Hussaini
Pauline Vereker
Mandy Doyle
BigChiefRandomChaos (Freakout Visual Weirdness)
Finian McGrath T.D.
Terry Byrne (musician)
Alexis Guilbride
Declan Clarke

by Justin Morahan Tue Jan 27, 2009 03:20

TO: FRANK ADAMS

The expulsion of an Ambassador is a serious action for a Government to take and should not be taken lightly.

There are certain times such as the present when such an action is called for. A holocaust or slaughter of men women and children has taken place in Gaza, a slaughter carried out by the Israeli State, causing a pure hell of carnage on a population that Israel had already weakened by siege.

In defiance of international calls to stop this carnage, the Israeli State continued to kill men women and children while their spokespersons around the world "justified" the indiscriminate killing of civilians with lying propaganda.

One of the most relentless of these propagandists was and is Zion Evrony, the Israeli Ambassador to Ireland. At every opportunity, he was on radio, TV and in the newspapers insulting our intelligence with a ridiculous line of defence, a line of propaganda so often repeated by him and other apologists that it must be hovering in the air over Ireland and contaminating the minds of the unwary and the unprepared.

For someone in his privileged position to try to excuse the inexcusable, or attempt to bestow pseudo-legitimacy on the slaughter perpetrated by Israel on the people of Gaza, expulsion is a hugely disproportionate and much, much lesser evil.

by Frank Adam - private citizen Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:25

Does Justin Morahan realise he is pulling the rug under his own policy?

Ambassadors are paid to represent the views of their principals and to report back to them the views of those they are sent ot reside amongst.

First error - Whatever Mr Evrony's private views might be, he is not here to publish them, and it is unprofessional to confuse his public and private persona.

Second error - Presumeably Justin and others want to convey their strong opinion to the Israeli government in which case let Mr Evony do his job. I can imagine who would be leading the charges of negligence and cheapskating if the Irish government were to rely only on the reports of newspapers or foreign ambassadors in Dublin rather than check against the second opinions of their own ambassadors abroad.

Third error - My surname is singular because the final "s" - as on 'Gerrry Adams' - is an Anglo-Saxon patronymic for a self-made nation thus saving the good Lord a tremendous responsibility.

Fourth error - Presumeably Justin ansd most of your correspondents wish to see Israel talk with its Arab opponents and settle a peace. Talks need ambassadors so stop kicking the messenger. That is on the level of the burglars pulling the telephone wires from the socket.

by geobbels Sun Feb 08, 2009 14:55

He lied to the Dail committtee on White Phosphorous. He should be censured for this.

by Justin Morahan Sat Mar 28, 2009 01:46

In reply to Frank Adam:

"First error - Whatever Mr Evrony's private views might be, he is not here to publish them, and it is unprofessional to confuse his public and private persona"

Reply: It's Mr Evrony's public persona I want out of Ireland. I have no interest in the other fellow.

"Second error - Presumably Justin and others want to convey their strong opinion to the Israeli government in which case let Mr Evrony do his job. I can imagine who would be leading the charges of negligence and cheapskating if the Irish government were to rely only on the reports of newspapers or foreign ambassadors in Dublin rather than check against the second opinions of their own ambassadors abroad."

Reply: I and others are well able to convey our opinions to Mr Evrony's masters in Israel and have done so frequently. E-mail and the Internet are important conduits both for conveying opinions and receiving information.

"Third error - My surname is singular because the final "s" - as on 'Gerrry Adams' - is an Anglo-Saxon patronymic for a self-made nation thus saving the good Lord a tremendous responsibility."

Reply: Apologies for the error re your surname.

"Fourth error - Presumably Justin and most of your correspondents wish to see Israel talk with its Arab opponents and settle a peace. Talks need ambassadors so stop kicking the messenger. That is on the level of the burglars pulling the telephone wires from the socket."

Reply: How can Israel talk to Hamas through an Israeli Ambassador in Ireland? If Dr Evrony went back to Israel and was made Ambassador to Palestine, then he might talk to the elected Hamas Government there and to the Opposition Fatah Party. But of course, Palestine is not recognized as a State by Israel, and the elected Hamas Government are not recognized by Israel. And Israel is engaged in burglary in Palestine and has pulled a lot more than telephone wires from the homes of Palestinians. And the recent atrocity in Gaza, an escalation of atrocities that are normal for Israel, will never be forgotten.

However peace will come it will not be through this Ambassador engaging in the same lying propaganda over and over again in the Irish media.

by Frank Adam - private citizen Sun Apr 05, 2009 22:39

Justin Morahan at least is rational. The type who took a Nazi pen - name - then spelled it incorrectly must be pretty far gone!

1) I return to my point about what ambassadors are for. If the IRISH ambassador were recalled from London, would John Morahan trust the material that the Irish Government received from the London press and Unionist activists on internet to be reporting accurately - and pertinently for Dublin's interests - on the ideas of the British government? Would noisy street demonstrators in politcal black and white be any use for judging degrees to which HMG might compromise on anything?

2) True that currently, it is not necessarily the job of the Israeli ambassador in Dublin to negotiate with Hamas - if Hamas feels it can talk to Israel at all - but the Israel - PLO talks took place in Oslo, Norway; a bit off the Middle Eastern beaten track.

3) For recognition and legitimacy, Palestine does NOT as yet recognise itself, as a state. Taking up those responsibilities would finish its fun and PR, kicking Israel. Nothing stops the PA declaring itself a state - Michael Collins and friends declared Eire and the British presence be damned.

b) Inter alia in 1919 -20 Abdul Assiz al Saud sabotaged Shereef Hussein's claim to be King of all Arabs [of the Levant and Mesopotamia] which ever since the Arabs have pinned solely on the British who admittedly had a deal with France but as they then said, it was difficult to support Hussein as King of all Arabs if Hussein could not get all Arabs to accept him.

c) Sharply to the point Hamas - and Fatah according to Mr Dahlan's latest speech - still refuse to recognise Israel. This exposes Arafat and "friends" as liars confirming President Clinton was justified so warning the incoming Bush Jnr.

d) Fatah, Hamas, other Palestine Arab groups, and most Arab states and others in the OIC starting with Iran, are in long term breach of UN181 of 1947 that it is UN policy to sort Palestine with a two state solution.

e) Hamas like Hitler, might have been elected, but is currently as democratic as Hitler after The Night of the Long Knives murder of his 'loyal party opposition' - but in the Hamas/Gaza case The Day of the Tower Blocks. Under cover of Cast Lead Hamas killed another 80+ Fatah people - without legal process.

f) The Israeli campaign in Gaza this Jan '09 resulted from Hamas rocketing Israel with over 8000 assorted missiles mostly in the last two or three years of which over 7000 at the little town of Sderot which Hamas spokesmen said they would rocket [civilians] till it was a ghost town - war crimes if there were...

g) Gaza is eerily reminiscent of how between 1949 and '56, especially after the accession of Colonel Nasser to Egypt's presidency, the Arab border war on Israel built up a score of 12 000 incidents and when Israel exploded in the Sinai-Suez Campaign the usual bucket of diplomatic and press hypocrisies flowed... but borders were quiet till Nasser let himself be dared by Syria (goaded by USSR) to kick Israel and raised a laugh of 1967 cartoons when cut to size.

4) In general getting so passionate about 1300 Gazans and Israel generally, raises some deep questions about your knowledge, your sense of proportion, and yourselves because since 1948 the ARABS have killed over 1300 000 ARABS:
*500k in Iraq (ditto Iran) in the 80's; plus two attacks on Kuwait.
*400k in Darfur besides millions in the twenty year civil war of the Arab North against the Christian and pagan south - does that not warn you Arab society is currently NOT up to tolerating big minorities?
*Half the Arab deaths of the War of Algerian Independence - The Country of the Million Martyrs as bragged in the 60's & 70's - were down to the internal civil war [for the succession]; but the French claim only a max of 400k dead overall.
*The 90's Algerian Civil war again mostly Arab GIA v.-Berber culture, killed 150 to 200k and drove many of the best educated to France.
*The Lebanese Civil War in the 70's killed 100k Arabs started by Syria's Assad setting Arafat's PLO on the Christians. Where does that take us for solidarity?
*Syria's President (spare us tyrannical kings!) Assad killed 20k Moslem Bros in his own Hama using shells and cyanide gas - doubtless Nazis he gave asylum to included the technicians or their instructors?
* Assad also killed a lot of people stirring Kurdish rebellions in Turkey and Iraq; and Syria is still interfering in Lebanon.
*Arafat claimed 30 k Palestine Arabs killed by King Hussein of Jordan in Black September 1970. Most others think it was 15 k - but can anybody trust Arafat?
*Throw in the thousands killed in Yemen and Aden/South Yemen by Nasser's interventions in the 60's and more as he tried to destabilise and bag Muscat and Oman,
*while the Saudi "Guardian of the Two Holy Places" tried to snaffle Buraimi Oasis and
*paid for the Eritrean War of Independence from Ethiopia because it is "humiliation" or otherwise improper for Moslems to live as a minority in a kaffir state.
*All this makes Arabs killed in Palestine small beer maximum 40k.

5) Asquith's Home Secretary later first HC of British Palestine: Lord Samuel once quipped that, "Antisemitism is hating Jews, more than necessary."

b) May I cap him with, Anti-Zionism becomes Antisemitism by hating Israel, more than necessary - "disproportionately" as some over-egg their pudding.

c) If Palestine Arabs are entitled to a state, so is Israel as recognised by the UN and defied by the Arabs. The Arab six rejections of offers and opportunities since 1937 (Peel Report) raise the question of whether Arabs really want a Palestine state because an inter-state peace would deprive all Arabs of their cause to war on Israel till they get rid of it - and their desire to take Palestine for themselves as in 1921 (East P to Jordan) and 1949.

d) In that case I hope Ireland will be more receptive of Israeli refugees than it was of German and Polish Jews in the 30's - but I am not holding my breath.

e) Meanwhile note Jonathan Freedland's Guardian column of 18 Mar '09 where he twigged that anti-Zionism operates [like Antisemitism] in that while people and media hyperinflate over Palestine, they are diverted from scrutinising "big oil," China in Tibet, or the "military - industrial complex." Stop "kicking the cat" - it's cruel & useless, and go into alternative energy to pressure the Arab World & Iran to calm down in general.

by Hubris Wed Apr 08, 2009 14:01

I have not read all of the preceding comments in the thread however,

With regard to your points above:

3) For recognition and legitimacy, Palestine does NOT as yet recognise itself, as a state. Taking up those responsibilities would finish its fun and PR, kicking Israel. Nothing stops the PA declaring itself a state - Michael Collins and friends declared Eire and the British presence be damned.

Nothing except the fact that in it's current geographical form what we refer to as 'Palestine' could not possibly constitute a viable state. At present the West Bank is in the process of being carved up into small Bantustans and Gaza is but a large open-air prison camp with all access tightly controlled by hostile forces.

One cannot have a state under those circumstances. One could make the argument that the siege of Gaza is the fault of Gazans, but one definitely cannot make the argument that slicing-and-dicing of the West Bank is in any way the fault of the Palestinian people (or indeed any Palestinians) that live there. Israel, and Israel alone, is completely to blame for this illegal land stealing

It is not possible to live in peace beside a state that is not only extremely hostile but also absolutely refuses to delineate it's final borders, while at the same time stealing more and more land. When the land-stealing stops peace may be possible but it is not possible while the land stealing continues. And there is only one party to blame for land-stealing . . . . . . and it ain't the Palestinians.

b) Inter alia in 1919 -20 Abdul Assiz al Saud sabotaged Shereef Hussein's claim to be King of all Arabs [of the Levant and Mesopotamia] which ever since the Arabs have pinned solely on the British who admittedly had a deal with France but as they then said, it was difficult to support Hussein as King of all Arabs if Hussein could not get all Arabs to accept him.

referral to events in the past does not in any way justify atrocities commited today or last week or last month or tomorrow, no matter how many time you repeat them nor how loudly you do so.

c) Sharply to the point Hamas - and Fatah according to Mr Dahlan's latest speech - still refuse to recognise Israel. This exposes Arafat and "friends" as liars confirming President Clinton was justified so warning the incoming Bush Jnr.

Equally though Israel pretends to recognise Palestinian right to it's own state it has done everything in it's power to ensure that such a thing can never occur. Also, Mohammad Dahlan has proven himself to be a Neo-Con puppet.

d) Fatah, Hamas, other Palestine Arab groups, and most Arab states and others in the OIC starting with Iran, are in long term breach of UN181 of 1947 that it is UN policy to sort Palestine with a two state solution.

How many UN resolutions is Israel in breach of: far far more than the 2 you have listed here. If UN resolutions are important to you why do you not mention the long list of UN resolutions that Israel continues to ignore? If UN resolutions are so sacrosanct to you, then why do you ignore Israels repeated breaching of nearly countless UN resolutions over it's 60 history?

e) Hamas like Hitler, might have been elected, but is currently as democratic as Hitler after The Night of the Long Knives murder of his 'loyal party opposition' - but in the Hamas/Gaza case The Day of the Tower Blocks. Under cover of Cast Lead Hamas killed another 80+ Fatah people - without legal process.

I yet to meet a pro-Israeli that could talk about the subject without recourse to mentioning 'Hitler' or the Nazi's. This is knwon as : Reductio ad Hitlerum. and is generally recognised as the product of fallacious logic.

Without such rethoric you pro-Zionists have not got a leg to stand on, as you well know, hence your constant need to refer to Hitler etc. Events that occurred in Europe 60yrs ago cannot be used to justify atrocities commited against Palestinians by Israeli's today.

f) The Israeli campaign in Gaza this Jan '09 resulted from Hamas rocketing Israel with over 8000 assorted missiles mostly in the last two or three years of which over 7000 at the little town of Sderot which Hamas spokesmen said they would rocket [civilians] till it was a ghost town - war crimes if there were...

Totally untrue, Israel has been looking for any excuse to carry out such an operation. One Knesset member even went so far as to promise a 'Holocaust' against Palestinians if they did not start to behave as Israel wants them to behave.

It is interesting that you choose a time-frame of 3 yrs when it is public knowledge that there was a mostly successful ceasefire in operation for the previous 6 months, which was then broken by the actions of the Israeli's. Indeed throughout the ceasefire the Israeli's behaved as if they had a right to kill with impunity.

A cease fire to Israel appears to mean - 'You stop firing and we will keep killing, ok?'

g) Gaza is eerily reminiscent of how between 1949 and '56, especially after the accession of Colonel Nasser to Egypt's presidency, the Arab border war on Israel built up a score of 12 000 incidents and when Israel exploded in the Sinai-Suez Campaign the usual bucket of diplomatic and press hypocrisies flowed... but borders were quiet till Nasser let himself be dared by Syria (goaded by USSR) to kick Israel and raised a laugh of 1967 cartoons when cut to size.

That statement is barely even parse-able

4) In general getting so passionate about 1300 Gazans and Israel generally, raises some deep questions about your knowledge, your sense of proportion, and yourselves because since 1948 the ARABS have killed over 1300 000 ARABS:
*500k in Iraq (ditto Iran) in the 80's; plus two attacks on Kuwait.
*400k in Darfur besides millions in the twenty year civil war of the Arab North against the Christian and pagan south - does that not warn you Arab society is currently NOT up to tolerating big minorities?
*Half the Arab deaths of the War of Algerian Independence - The Country of the Million Martyrs as bragged in the 60's & 70's - were down to the internal civil war [for the succession]; but the French claim only a max of 400k dead overall.
*The 90's Algerian Civil war again mostly Arab GIA v.-Berber culture, killed 150 to 200k and drove many of the best educated to France.
*The Lebanese Civil War in the 70's killed 100k Arabs started by Syria's Assad setting Arafat's PLO on the Christians. Where does that take us for solidarity?
*Syria's President (spare us tyrannical kings!) Assad killed 20k Moslem Bros in his own Hama using shells and cyanide gas - doubtless Nazis he gave asylum to included the technicians or their instructors?
* Assad also killed a lot of people stirring Kurdish rebellions in Turkey and Iraq; and Syria is still interfering in Lebanon.
*Arafat claimed 30 k Palestine Arabs killed by King Hussein of Jordan in Black September 1970. Most others think it was 15 k - but can anybody trust Arafat?
*Throw in the thousands killed in Yemen and Aden/South Yemen by Nasser's interventions in the 60's and more as he tried to destabilise and bag Muscat and Oman,
*while the Saudi "Guardian of the Two Holy Places" tried to snaffle Buraimi Oasis and
*paid for the Eritrean War of Independence from Ethiopia because it is "humiliation" or otherwise improper for Moslems to live as a minority in a kaffir state.
*All this makes Arabs killed in Palestine small beer maximum 40k.

The fact that you see all non-Israeli's in the area as somehow composing a massive unified block based on your perception of their race is very telling indeed. Were you always this racist or is it something you have had to nurture over the years? You seem to think that atrocities commited elsewhere somehow absolves Israel of it's deplorable actions in Palestine. If it's any consolation I personally condemn the leaders of the regime of Syria that were responsible for the Hama massacre in 1982. As should all rational people. But giving us a list of atrocities commited by something you call 'ARABS!!' does not in any way absolve Israeli crimes in Gaza. I am astounded that you think it would.

5) Asquith's Home Secretary later first HC of British Palestine: Lord Samuel once quipped that, "Antisemitism is hating Jews, more than necessary."

What this has to do with anything is beyond me. I could equally give you a list of racist statements made by Israeli political leaders and heroes over the last 100 yrs. How would that prove anything other than that racists come in all colours and sizes and come from all political and religious persuasions? Do you want to do some sort of 'Duelling Quotes' thingy? What would that achieve?

b) May I cap him with, Anti-Zionism becomes Antisemitism by hating Israel, more than necessary - "disproportionately" as some over-egg their pudding.

You may but it does not in any way mean that you are correct in your assertion. May I cap you with

'The early Zionist leaders said things such as: "To be a Zionist one must be something of an Anti-Semite".

by Frank Adam - private citizen Sat Apr 11, 2009 14:25

Hubris may be a more pertinent pen name than intended given proficiency in the hustings tricks for arguments without an answer in the manual: patronising familiar address, take the rise rather than evidence or logic, and professing not to understand; so let us take the don’t faze me with the facts one at a time with apologies that the title etc italics have not transfered .

First the situation is political so understanding the mentalities and attitudes needs understanding the history and (postage stamp) geography – if one wishes to be constructive. The tunnel vision of a lawyer on a case is not politically helpful to achieving a future, nor even a good case because there are mitigating factors and proportion to consider. Incidentally De Valera used to wind up Churchill by carrying on about 700 years of the English in Ireland and Cromwell.

Title Ref whether Palestine recognises itself and whether it could presently be a viable state despite patchy Israeli settlement, and the isolation of Gaza.

Typical of the demonisation by half truths, Gaza is only isolated because Egypt seals its frontier. The fate of Gaza is not Israel’s sole responsibility. She evidently lets in basic food for health, or all the children in the Guardian’s 78 pages of cover with pictures would not have shown all the children plump faced per age group; and most of the politicians well jowled. Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Aqsa Martyrs all give Israel a legitimate wartime excuse to tightly control and stop traffic between herself and Gaza. Why Gaza is entitled to more liberal treatment than centuries of wartime precedents will make interesting explaining. Every other warring power would have starved the place into submission in a month, two years ago.

Many other states have far greater problems of geography and multiple languages and tribes/nations than Arab Palestine. The PA has one language; near enough one religion and one denomination within that; a uniform culture & legal inheritance, and can declare and create a state - but that requires accepting the neighbours have equal rights to get the quiet to make a state work. When the East European empires broke up in 1918, and the British & French etc in India and Africa, there were talks and agreements about transit rights (then overflights). Nobody is given, “a state on a silver salver.” It requires some thought rather than obstreperousness with a weak hand; and sweat at compromise after the blood and tears, not more of them. In actuality – and particularly since the reduction of the Second Intifada to manageable security, a lot of technical co-operation has been going on. Better a hundred years late than never; there is even a Palestine Tree Fund these ten years. Meanwhile true to form, Arafat rejected the Israeli offer of a railway from Gaza via Ashdod and Kiryat Gat to Taqumiyeh below Hebron.

The Arab parties in Palestine have kept up a war since 1948 refusing to recognise any frontiers proposed since 1937; or they claim the borders on offer but rejected before the previous bout of hostilities. Israel does not have to proclaim borders which on precedent would be treated as a mere start line for haggling. The state of play is that the Palestine and other Arabs have to accept a border, and Israeli sovereignty in principle – which Hamas & Fatah do not. Then the frontier details can be surveyed and bargained as was the case with the Franco-British 1923 frontier; the Egyptian and Jordanian frontiers with Israel; and the 1925 and 1965 Saudi – Jordanian frontiers.

Title Ref Mohammad Dahlan being a Neo-Con puppet, and Israeli “obstruction” of a Palestine State.

M. Dahlan is a Fatah man to his finger tips, and “Neo-Con” was a passing fad of a label that meant little and means less. A Conservative is a Conservative as Irish Politics is to outsiders. The whole Fatah /Hamas scheme pursues a conservative return to 1947 & beyond. Hamas is trying to re-impose medieval religiosity in Gaza; and Fatah is not a liberal freedom of speech regime. Both commit public executions. Both assassinate internal opponents.

From 1937 (Peel Report) to the 70’s Israel did not have to prevent a Palestine state. The Arab parties refused it; though Arafat did try to hi-jack Jordan in 70-71. The Arab demand was a state of all Palestine with a minority of Jewish citizens or subjects. Understandably Israel was not accepting that, no more than Ireland would return to the UK.

At Oslo there seemed to be an agreed process for disentanglement based on mutual recognition. It started sliding off the charts within weeks because of two of Arafat’s actions that made the Arab promise of recognition of Israeli self determination and independence into a perceived smoke screen to carry on as before. He told constituency audiences in Arabic, that Oslo was a paper and they – the "Arabs of 1948" - were going back. Secondly the PA legislature refused to implement the promised amendments to the PLO Charter ie effectively refused to ratify and implement while Arafat did nothing to change their minds. In the election when Peres lost power, Arafat in polling week tried to get his parliament to do something with this part of Oslo, but they remitted it to committee to sink the process.

As Arab recognition was what Israel wanted above all from the PLO and constituency to pay for withdrawal from real landed assets; Israel did, and does not see why it should pay the more substantial price of withdrawal from real property. Like Gladstone and Parnell, and De Gaulle and the Algerians, Israeli majorities in all elections before 1977, and three elections since 1998, do want to leave the Palestine Arabs outside itself. Understandably give the collapse of UN181 and Oslo, Israel is going to keep as much as possible and leave the PA as squeezed as possible to stew till it co-operates more peacefully – with its own constituency for a start. This is easy enough to sleep the sleep of the just on, because Palestine & general Arab policies are far harsher.

All Arabs also have to recognise their – Arab - actions have brought the house down on themselves in 1948, and since – refugees, occupation, retaliations, fences, short work & rations - and accordingly make a sincere change of heart and policy. Arabs had opportunities which they fluffed in 49-67, 67 Oslo & the 2003 Gaza withdrawal, and now the Arabs have to carry the can - or change themselves. If Palestine Arabs want an Arabic Sunni Moslem ambience they can always arrange autonomy within Jordan which will be far easier to live in as an Arab state, than in Hebrew speaking Jewish Israel. This is so obvious that it is another reason why the Oslo process has lost most of its credibility in Israel as another attack on Israeli Jewish self-determination. The Saudi “peace” plan is not even discreet in its mealy mouthed “just settlement“ for the refugee families of 1948 - phrases which in Arabic in Arab contexts, mean only "the return" of all Arab 1948 refugee families in Palestine in 1947 many of whom were immigrants.

Title Ref UN resolutions

I only remember citing one. The importance of UN 181 and what happened to it, is precedental. Treating Gaza as a court case to stand alone before a jury (and dismiss what Scots would call "defence by impeachment of the opponent & his witnesses for more severe offences") then the Arab precedent of dismissing UN partition policy and two state solution created the conflict and is a lot weightier in the process than other transgressions of resolutions. Further since 1948 Arab states have waged a campaign of boycotts and harassment within the UN that is totally against their charter obligations agreed on joining.

It would be well to remember the caution that the UN is an American drafted device to reduce World power politics to parliamentary processes. It is a big step less bad than a power free for all. However like all parliaments the UN has its rotten boroughs and gerrymanders starting with 41 members under a million population; and paralysis by Cold War & other power blocs (the Vatican leaning on Latin Americans to vote against 181 in 1947) and the the Arab or Moslem (23 & 56) states clogging the agenda with a disproportionate third of resolutions on aspects of, “Palestine.”

Title Ref Hitler

Zionism got under way nearly forty years before Hitler (a lapsed cathedral choirboy and Stalin was a novice monk) and for the same reasons that a state – Tsarist Russia in the original case - was refusing to treat its Jews as equal citizens. Alexander III made his tutor Pobedonestov Procurator of the Holy Synod (civil service chief of the Orthodox Russian Church) and the two assembled a deliberate policy of pressuring the Jews intending that: a third die, a third convert and a third emigrate. One of the “May Laws” was to forbid Jews any loans or mortgages. Given Tsarist Russia was an Orthodox Christian Autocracy and not pretending to be an Enlightenment state, it was in a manner, honest to its premises – like Hamas which for medievally religious reasons holds that it will never recognise and never make peace with Israel, even if it has to make purely temporary pragmatic accommodations with her.

Incidentally the US (Quota) and UK (Balfour) Immigration Acts were a reaction to the flow of Jews from Tsarist, then general post 1918 East European nationalist (un)official persecutions and prejudice. These were conducted in an atmosphere where if a party called itself ‘Christian’ it was by definition pursuing Antisemitic policies; a fact that could lead to notoriously embarrassing moments as when Horthy (the Hungarian regent) lavished public praise on the visiting head of the US – YMCA as leader of an Antisemitic organisation wished him well at it.

Try anti-Zionist arguments on the Irish. Probably 50 million Irish live in the US (35 mn) Australia or the UK (7mn and 1 mn first generation Irish in UK are still the biggest immigrant group in UK) more prosperously than on the island of Ireland; so why an Irish state? Just asking the question about Ireland and Irishness justifies Zionism and Israel – the Irish migrants to the new Worlds are as deeply into the campaigns against the Indians and Aborigines as any. Zionists bought their land – till the Arabs junked law for battle and deserve their losses. Zionism was not allowed to save the Jews of Europe; and the West did not. Israel saved the bulk of the Jews of the Arab World from similar nationalist and religious bigotries and they are now the bulk of the Israeli Jewish population which three generations shaken down has melded and intermarried into a sociologists’ study treat – but I doubt if that is appreciated in Galway or Gaza.

Title Ref Gaza

Actually it was the Arabs who, as ever, set the precedents for cease fires being, “You stop and we continue.” Whether palatable or not to the Palestine lobby: between 1949 and 1956 no Arab said “Israel” – just “Zionist entity” – and border raiding totted up 12 000 incidents and 1200 Israeli casualties – 800 fatal because good roads and intensive care ambulances were sparse then.

Similarly whatever the truth about the legal scrabble at the end of Nov 2008 it is fact that there was a rocketing campaign by jihadist groups in Gaza dating from 2001 and the bulk of those rockets fell (a) on Sderot, (b) fell in the last two years and (c) Hamas spokesmen said they would…”rocket Sderot till it was a ghost town.” Israel had indeed been itching to clobber Hamas before “Cast Lead” but Hamas policies and international ineffectiveness and pressures are the explanation. Good foresters look at the wood as well as the trees.

On a military technicality, by WW II and Viet Nam or Korean precedents: if Israel had wanted to kill civilians in Gaza last January then the casualty bill could easily have been over ten times what it was. Israel tried kid gloves to save collateral civilian casualties in Jenin; but was still defamed and suffered more of her own casualties than need have been had she used artillery and armoured engineers. In Gaza she at least economised with her own and the Arabs collected for lying - to themselves as much as any - about Jenin and Lebanon.

Hamas, like Hizbollah both Iranian proxies for regional power games, wanted a war hoping to make a propaganda political coup of it, whether they gave Israel a bloody nose stand off; or whether they got the black eyes. They got their war which is a rough game with military and collateral casualties. Given jihadi sneers that we in the West love life and they love death [& paradise!!!] come down from the ceiling of outrage. Every time Arabs scream about atrocities, on examination they turn out to be lying exaggerations – all the way back through Jenin, Black September, Mohammed Dura to Deir Yassin, besides Hamas would have them celebrating “martyrdom!”

As Abba Eban, Israel’s foreign minister of the 60’s repeated several times, “The Arabs can have peace; or the Arabs can have war. What the Arabs can not have, is that we [Israel] be at peace and they [Arabs] be at war.”

Title ref violence and race

Arabs would be very miffed to be called, “something.” Nobody is “racist” calling the Arabs, Arabs. The Arabs do so! “From the Ocean to the Gulf.” The Arab League does! Nobody has to be nurtured into calling the Arab World, Arab. Colonel Nasser, President of Egypt by coup and acclamation was the most charismatic Arab leader ever – according to Arabs and Arabists. He rubbed out the “Pharaonic” distinction that Egypt was not Arab, but Egyptian. I witnessed his 20 year career and it was replete with speeches about, and for Arab Unity, and reproaches to the West galore for splitting the Arabs in 1920. That he was the motor mouth and 'Mr Me' of the epoch did not help reconcile his fellow Arab rulers, is another discussion.

The Arabs are a big, 23 extensive states, version of a nation spread across many states as Germany (360? from Westphalia to Napoleon, and 38 till 1870); and Italy (10?) – Metternich’s “geographical expression -” before unification. None of this detracts from local dialects, local variations in administration, cuisine and much else even in highly integrated and uniform administrations such as France, the US or the defunct USSR, or even the four nations of the UK.

Arabs among themselves, also have as violent and vindictive culture as any, which was why I listed their internal cumulative “butcher’s bill” of 1300 000 since 1948. It is not really surprising that they resort to violence with others beyond their culture zone, given how they run their own patch (qv.New York, London, Madrid, Istanbul, Paris, Delhi…). That is what also explains that the Arab war on Israel is not only Israel’s fault. A point that might clarify thinking through how to effect its resolution, instead of just cheering and jeering from the grandstands’ safety certain that one’s own neck is not at risk. Israel’s existence is, and nobody will rush to take in her people.

One reason why the Arab war on Israel endures is nobody including the USA has yet managed to find a way of pressuring Arab parties to keep their word or compromise – about anything – and Israel is not a push over for suicide. When the oil era goes or becomes so expensive the accountants take us into alternative energy for our budgets, the intra-Arab conflicts, and the Arab war on Israel will calm down with the evaporation of the need to recycle petrodollars through the arms exports of bloc rivalries.

Meanwhile race and racist are very slippery words. In the hundred years before 1939 ‘race’ was used interchangeably with ‘nation’ and for the crude varieties of social Darwinist thinking, now exploded by WW II & decolonisation. Since 1945, apart from the Communists leading the way to abbreviate ‘racialist’ to ‘racist’ ‘ to rhyme with fascist, the only real meaning has been to mask ‘colour bar’ or prejudice which put so baldly, is ridiculous – and has been laughed out of court with the dissolution of Jim Crow US and the Boer Nats - who are still African Nats. Currently racist is a, confuse the issue, political swearword and a token of the ignorance. Anybody can convert to being a Jew, Moslem or Christian; or naturalise to most states’ citizenships - excepting Saudi where even visits by Jews are forbidden. Conor Cruise O’Brien has a delightful anecdote of King Feisal of Saudi receiving Henry Kissinger with some embarrassment, ”Shall we try and settle this like human beings?” To which K replied, “Some of my best friends are human beings.”

The issue is unfair discrimination (including a sixty year campaign to treat Israel to limited sovereignty and perpetual violence) whether for pre- Enlightenment social, or economic and security reasons. Social economic and gender discriminations can be sorted by legislation investment and political good manners ie education and peace rather than border war helps. The security side depends on cornering the violently disposed “God squad” who believe they are going to heaven anyway, that while we are on Earth, it is better for everybody – including their sisters’ dowries – “to calm down and take their itchy fingers off the triggers & bomb switches,” and accept that in talks nobody gets everything. That’s the point; and when Gerry Adams collected his ministerial income.

Titlle ref Zionism

Zionism is not Antisemitic whatever else it may be; it is nationalist but no more prejudiced than any other nationalism - as I remember my surprise at Val Doonican smiling to camera and asking, “Why are Irish jokes simple? So that the English can understand them.” There was plenty of Antisemitism before there was any political(y organised) Zionism and a lot of anti-Zionism is Antisemitically motivated. Herbert Samuel was already a mature politician when he was Home Secretary and knew his countrymen and ex-schoolmates well enough. You do not get far in politics unless you can read people.

Samuel’s remark about Antisemitism was not about Zionism but about the proportionate interrelations of people. I capped the idea with a judgement on the anti-Israel lobby’s mindset being ultra disproportionate. Israelis criticise Israel every day of the week. They are a normal bunch of democrats. The non- Arab anti-Zionists frequently display disproportionate bents that they do not apply to similar questions elsewhere – whence the, “more than necessary.” Herbert Samuel did not manifest Zionism till Turkey entered WW I on Germany’s side in October 1914 when he wrote a cabinet memo suggesting sponsoring a Jewish colony on the lands he presumed Britain would take victoriously from Turkey. This was all before Wilson’s 14 points. Asquith’s reaction was, “ A brainstorm from the clockwork mind of HS,” or words to that effect. Now let us have your quote’s paragraph and context.

Other remarks on Zionism and internal Jewish politics are under-read. Religious Jews especially the haredi streak have also always had a dismissive view of Zionism and assimilation. Politicians by definition are not forgiving of their rivals. With 20/ 20 hindsight the Zionists were right – even if you resent Hitler - and who does not? In the 30’s Zionists were still a minority interest in the Diaspora as well as Palestine. That is why they are embedded in the scenery now, especially in the US where the Community took the lesson of thirties and forties as: muck into politics because nobody else will fight our corner – not unreasonable for any group, and well practiced by Irish Greek & Italian lobbies, besides the negro campaign for Constitutional equality.

If Jews could not emigrate except with difficulty in the 30’s it was because of the immigration politics of the USA and other traditional countries of immigration reacting to the internal unemployment politics of The Depression. That is why Hitler realized he could kill Europe’s Jews & gypsies with impunity. After 1933 all Jews just considered themselves lucky to get out oor get their relatives out of Europe and certainly would not have pressured anybody to refuse migrants. Read up the Evian & Bermuda Conferences on which there is a page or two in C. Sykes, “Crossroads to Israel: Palestine from Balfour to Bevin.” As the 30’s figures turned out: 60k went to UK; 60k to Palestine and 180k to the US besides others who got across borders in Europe but were caught after 1940 eg Anne Frank’s family; and those who reached Latin America or Australia and S.Af.

Given the Irish political memory, dismissing past events is a bit rich, especially as the Irish State was eventually created and run in the name of Catholic nationalism and extremists still sustain hostility to families and denominations that immigrated four centuries ago. Individual past acts might not justify particular acts in the present. They do explain the mindsets and attitudes of those in office and their constituents – which is politically pertinent. This explains the Arab head-banging about “the return” and vengeance, when as with France after 1870, they could have done and do a lot more for creating prosperity – and as with Jews since the first exile, getting on with life in the present.

Title ref assorted crits

The dismissal of arguments of appeal to authority falls with the Arab campaign of “flat Earth” UN resolutions. Jonathan Freedland is not a random Guardian journalist but one of their leading regular columnists and the paper itself is the leading pro- Arab sheet in Britain since 1968. If they have reason to expose the Palestine sideshow as a disproportionate diversion and “shirt of Othman” that prevents the grasping of the big fish; take it seriously. Solving Palestine will not affect Irish politics and prosperity. Diversion of resources into another arms race instead of alternative energy to prevent Global flooding will affect Ireland; which incidentally has a lot of wind and tidal to generate power and extract hydrogen to sell or take in refugees and grow – but find the capital.

If anybody needs to calm down with headshrinker and icepack it is the Arab parties in Palestine. Just consider if they had signed off the war about 1950 and developed themselves? Playing, “ifs of history,“ is dangerous but occasionally cautionary. The late King Hussein of Jordan did admit in older age that his decision to follow Nasser in 1967 was the dumbest decision he ever took. That should be seen against the facts that Fatah and PLO were founded by Syria and Nasser respectively to subvert and steal Jordan – as tried in 68 – 71 – and if Jordan had sat out the 67 war as it did in 56 then there would have been: no occupation, no pumping up of Palestine Arab nationalism in contradiction of the general Arab complaints about the 1920 sectorisation of the Fertile Crescent Arab World; no Jewish settlement in Samaria & Judea alias Nablus and Hebron Districts; but if you believe the Palestine cause, why do your ilk still use the term “West Bank”?

Title final caution for the legally minded, when it suits

A “border” is generic. “Frontier” like “marriage” is a particular legal category with a lot of formality and baggage. The Armistice lines of 1949 known familiarly as “The Green Line” because originally drawn in green pencil/ink per military staff practice, are not a “frontier.” The 1923 Franco British Palestine Frontier with Lebanon and Syria is a frontier duly ratified and registered with the treaty divisions of respective foreign ministries AND the League/UN. Ditto the Egyptian and Jordanian frontiers with Israel. Syrian insistence on the Armistice Line of 1949 as a proposed frontier is in flagrante delicto its own mantra of, no acquisition of land by war – “a few lousy [square] kilometers,” in Kisssinger’s argot - but still in breach.

Similarly just because all governments except Pakistan and UK refused to recognize the Jordanian absorbtion of the Districts of Nablus and Hebron when occupied by Jordan in 1948 – 67, those lands are undeniably disputed, but also undeniably unassigned; even though there are clear intentions all round as to what they should be; but actually are not, because of shenanigans all round have left the paperwork shelved. In the legal plasticities there are some all-round opportunities to compromise, but on precedent we are going to have to wait till the last contemporaries of Arafat and Hamas pass on.

by Sean Og Tue Apr 14, 2009 01:25

Hubris wrote

J Freedland is a pro-Zionist and therefore a racist and an Anti-Semite -

This from HUBRIS is rather rich and completely at variance with any facts

Anyone who has heard or read Jonathan Freedland in the Guardian or on BBc
or has heard him speak in public would know this .

And equating Zionism with Racism and Anti Semtism is inverted logic
--pots and kettles ?

Hubris's comments remind me of the comment I read in the Readers Digets many
years ago supposedly from a Southern USA politician of the time
" I hate two things - discrimination and negroes "

Read for Hubris I dislike two things "Racism and Jews who want a national home "

by Sean Og Tue Apr 14, 2009 09:13

Pro-boycott activists will not want to hear this!

"If scientists can figure out how microRNAs regulate hair cells,
they could be used to rescue the cells that are dying,
says Prof. Avraham, [Tel Aviv Univ ]
who also collaborates with Palestinian researchers to help them understand,
and combat,
the high incidence of genetic deafness in the Palestinian population".

http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=...=1725

by A Freeman Wed Apr 15, 2009 13:57

It's interesting to see a cartoon from Spain in this link demanding that Zapatero kick out the Israeli Ambassador to Spain, Raphel Schutz, considering the Spanish were pioneers at expelling their Jewish population all the way back in the days of their 'most Catholic monarchs' Ferdinand and Isabella, the Spanish anti-Semites are obviously hoping for a repeat performance of their 'past glories'!

by Feyadeen Wed Apr 15, 2009 14:41

How's this for a history lesson, chum -

1) Spain expels its Jewish and Muslim population after the reconquista in 1492

2) Most of the Spanish Jews are given shelter by the Ottoman empire, which is more tolerant of Judaism than any of the Christian powers of Europe; many of them settle on the island of Salonika

3) The German army arrives in Greece in 1941 and sends most of the Salonika Jews to the death camps (Primo Levi reported that he always did a double-take when he saw a prisoner's number indicating that they were from Salonika, as there were so few surviving when he was sent to Auschwitz)

4) The main ally of Nazi Germany at the time is of course Fascist Italy, which takes part in the conquest of Greece

5) After 1945, the surviving supporters of Italy form the MSI

6) In the 1990s, the MSI transforms itself into the Alleanza Nationale and goes into government with Silvio Berlusconi

7) And hey presto, Berlusconi and the ex-Nazi Gianfranco Fini (his foreign minister) turn out to be the most aggressively pro-Israel government in Europe, defending the recent attack on the people of Gaza to the hilt

8) Berlusconi's pro-Israel stance earns him a commendation from the US Jewish Anti-Defamation League - with black humour, this award is presented to Berlusconi the week after he gives an interview to an English journalist and tells him that "Mussolini never killed anyone he just sent them off to holiday camps"

This is just one example of the way that the traditional Jew-haters and persecutors of Christendom have now lined up in support of the Israeli state - see also the Christian Fundamentalist Right in the USA. I wonder why this is - it sure ain't because they've suddenly become great lovers of the Jewish people. Probably has more to do with the fact that Israel itself has adopted their racist, colonial agenda and is imposing it on the Palestinians with terror.

by Frank Adam - private citizen Wed Apr 15, 2009 23:21

Not overmuch extra to be said about "Fedayeen" having written the title.

The British, French and Soviet Union, then USA all supported Zionism to upset the position of their predecessor vis a vis the Arabs in particular, and the Turks or Moslem World in general. Then they trim to curry favour with the Arabs till another rival turns up. Pro-tem the Chinese want oil too, and the Africans are already grumbling at another colonial variant. Wonder what happens when "peak oil" by 2020 cuts the Arab capacity for erratic mischief by oil blackmail?

Meanwhile it would be nice to be able to understand why so many in a small nation at a great distance beyond its own reach, sympathises so closely with a big nation - albeit in several states - trying to rub out another small nation??? Why does this same small Northern island nation which also depended and depends greatly on US support in its own nationalist politics so delight in "kicking the cat" of its own patron? Specifically kicking a US ally with insults and insults to its patron?

Odd that those most into anti-Zionism openly manifest a disgust with aspects of the current World which they think will be cured by kicking the USA!!!! Or kicking Israel because after all it is a bit difficult to kick the USA. This World will not be cured by reverting to medieval religious fundamentalism and associated prejudices - nor the immmoral attitude that one is not obliged to keep faith with heretics - regardless of whether the dominant authoritarianism is the Church or the Arabs - first to break a UN resolution and loudest - like bankers - to shout for aid from their own self inflicted troubles; pretty good at breaking armistices, "standstills" & "calm" too so as not to sign "ceasefires" .

The Moslem historic attitude to Jews is erratic; and Moslem tolerance is not equality but the arrogance of supremacism which is why the temperature of the moment is so hot. The Christian World has insolently elevated itself above the Moslem World, and the Jews are cheekily asking to be treated as equals. Ooh! Teacher swore!

One thing is clear that a World with fundamentalist armed clergy running amok (Good Malay Moslem word) is going to be worse than the last three & half centuries of Westphalian states and hegemonic power. Just look at Somalia, Pakistan and Afghanistan all countries which are in trouble or are going that way because the mullahs have taken over and junked any semblance of state order and even imperfect economics, law and minimal peace and security.